Re: [WikiEN-l] Start an Epidemic
Carcharoth wrote: > On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 1:07 PM, Charles Matthews > wrote: > > > > >> What works is this: >> > > > > Want to focus on one. > > >> - people show respect for the policy by "staying on the fairway", not >> gaming it at the margins; >> > > This only works if the policy is written sufficiently well to allow > for the existence of a broad fairway as opposed to a narrow one. There > will always be those who want to narrow the fairway and constrain > people into a set definition. If the margins are brought in too close, > it becomes too easy to accuse people of gaming the margins. If the > fairway is too broad, then too much slips through. Even if people > agree on where the central point should be, what should be done when > people disagree on how broad the fairway should be? > Dispute resolution. The existence of areas where reasonable people might disagree doesn't vitiate policies, it just means that there is room for concrete discussion with the aim of clarification. Charles ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Start an Epidemic
On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 1:07 PM, Charles Matthews wrote: > What works is this: Want to focus on one. > - people show respect for the policy by "staying on the fairway", not > gaming it at the margins; This only works if the policy is written sufficiently well to allow for the existence of a broad fairway as opposed to a narrow one. There will always be those who want to narrow the fairway and constrain people into a set definition. If the margins are brought in too close, it becomes too easy to accuse people of gaming the margins. If the fairway is too broad, then too much slips through. Even if people agree on where the central point should be, what should be done when people disagree on how broad the fairway should be? Carcharoth ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Start an Epidemic
Marc Riddell wrote: > Carcharoth, I believe the problem we as a community are having with the > issue of civility is finding a definition of it that everyone can agree > upon. And, since the very concept of civility is so highly subjective, that > agreeing upon a firm definition is impossible. On the other hand ... it is not the only such issue. And insisting that everything be spelled out in detail is a type of wikilawyering. We have had extensive experience of this kind of issue with policies. We do not accept that the only criterion of a robust policy is a water-tight definition. For example, disruption is not accepted on Wikipedia, but there is no actual policy with a definition. What works is this: - there is a policy and it is open to revision by those who think they can improve it; - policies apply to everyone who contributes to Wikipedia, not just those who approve of that particular policy and its formulation; - policies have a central point for which there is a real consensus, whatever the details as represented in the wording says today; - this central point is deserving of respect in the context of what we do, daily, as editors, and creates a clear expectation on behaviour of those on Wikipedia; - people show respect for the policy by "staying on the fairway", not gaming it at the margins; - policies are in the end enforced on everyone, even though enforcement of policy is an art not a science and always takes into account factors such as the good of the mission; - the community rules out the creation of special cases and insists on a universal approach. Together these aspects of policy work. Not all policies do work as well as they should, but I think the fault can then be laid at the door of some breakdown in those seven points. Invoking general "cultural factors" is something of a cop-out. Charles ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Start an Epidemic
Hi, On 2/27/09, Marc Riddell wrote: > Carcharoth, I believe the problem we as a community are having with the > issue of civility is finding a definition of it that everyone can agree > upon. And, since the very concept of civility is so highly subjective, that > agreeing upon a firm definition is impossible. That's what I meant when I > said before. "I know it when I see it." I personally believe that to be civil is to respect, and to /demonstrate/ respect for, fellow human beings. That's rather vague, though. If one recognises that civility is also deeply connected with professionality, a definition becomes simpler—if you wouldn't say something to a colleague that you respect and don't wish to hurt, you probably shouldn't say it to anybody else. —Thomas Larsen ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Start an Epidemic
Something to bear in mind when asking for civility is whether one's own actions bear up to scrutiny. We've all seen individuals who are uncivil themselves, yet demand higher standards of other people. It can go over as hypocritical and sanctimonious. I had an off-list conversation with someone about that earlier today about a stream of vulgar language he had sent my way. After several tries I was unable to persuade him to reconsider. He kept replying that agreeing with a stranger in a profane manner shouldn't be offensive, and I kept replying that it was. We stalled on that point. And now I'm having second thoughts about my own habit of asking for more civility onsite. Perhaps there are times when speaking up is worse than holding one's tongue. Ambrose Bierce comes to mind, if you don't mind sardonic humor mixed with religion. CHRISTIAN, n. One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. One who follows the teachings of Christ in so far as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin. -Durova On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Carcharoth wrote: > On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 6:07 PM, Marc Riddell > wrote: > > > >> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 1:29 PM, Marc Riddell > >> wrote: > >>> Civility, like courtesy, is contagious - it begins with you. > > > > on 2/26/09 8:48 AM, Carcharoth at carcharot...@googlemail.com wrote: > >> > >> If it has a shorter lifespan, might need more effort to successfully > >> inoculate. But you are right, the effects of being polite and civil do > >> spread. But there will always be some level of incivility. How do you > >> know when the levels are acceptable once again? When more articles are > >> being written? My theory is that the articles still get written, just > >> slower, and some article writers are lost for good (or never arrive). > >> > > Carcharoth, I believe the problem we as a community are having with the > > issue of civility is finding a definition of it that everyone can agree > > upon. And, since the very concept of civility is so highly subjective, > that > > agreeing upon a firm definition is impossible. That's what I meant when I > > said before. "I know it when I see it." > > > > If I happen upon a discussion that I'm not directly involved in and feel > one > > or more of the participants are being uncivil, I will interject a comment > > about it. The culture of a community is what the majority of its members > > decide it will be. > > > > Speaking only of this medium here, when I am directly involved in a > > discussion and encounter what I feel is an uncivil response to something > I > > have said (whether it be on a mailing list or talk page) I simply ignore > it > > and stay focused on the subject being discussed. If the entire post > consists > > only of an uncivil remark, and doesn't even deal with the issue being > > discussed, I don't respond at all. This works for me. > > It's a good approach. I definitely do the latter (aim to avoid being > distracted by incivility in discussions I am taking part in) but > probably not enough of the latter (pointing out incivility in > discussions I'm following but not actively taking part in). That is > definitely something more people could do, while taking care not to > become "civility cops" or anything like that. Some people will also > take affront and accuse someone who is pointing out incivility of > being incivil, but if people are reasonable, that won't happen (but > then reasonable people don't need to be super-careful about civility, > as they will see reason at some point and pull back from escalating > the situation - and vice-versa). > > Carcharoth > > ___ > WikiEN-l mailing list > WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > -- http://durova.blogspot.com/ ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Start an Epidemic
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 6:07 PM, Marc Riddell wrote: > >> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 1:29 PM, Marc Riddell >> wrote: >>> Civility, like courtesy, is contagious - it begins with you. > > on 2/26/09 8:48 AM, Carcharoth at carcharot...@googlemail.com wrote: >> >> If it has a shorter lifespan, might need more effort to successfully >> inoculate. But you are right, the effects of being polite and civil do >> spread. But there will always be some level of incivility. How do you >> know when the levels are acceptable once again? When more articles are >> being written? My theory is that the articles still get written, just >> slower, and some article writers are lost for good (or never arrive). >> > Carcharoth, I believe the problem we as a community are having with the > issue of civility is finding a definition of it that everyone can agree > upon. And, since the very concept of civility is so highly subjective, that > agreeing upon a firm definition is impossible. That's what I meant when I > said before. "I know it when I see it." > > If I happen upon a discussion that I'm not directly involved in and feel one > or more of the participants are being uncivil, I will interject a comment > about it. The culture of a community is what the majority of its members > decide it will be. > > Speaking only of this medium here, when I am directly involved in a > discussion and encounter what I feel is an uncivil response to something I > have said (whether it be on a mailing list or talk page) I simply ignore it > and stay focused on the subject being discussed. If the entire post consists > only of an uncivil remark, and doesn't even deal with the issue being > discussed, I don't respond at all. This works for me. It's a good approach. I definitely do the latter (aim to avoid being distracted by incivility in discussions I am taking part in) but probably not enough of the latter (pointing out incivility in discussions I'm following but not actively taking part in). That is definitely something more people could do, while taking care not to become "civility cops" or anything like that. Some people will also take affront and accuse someone who is pointing out incivility of being incivil, but if people are reasonable, that won't happen (but then reasonable people don't need to be super-careful about civility, as they will see reason at some point and pull back from escalating the situation - and vice-versa). Carcharoth ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Start an Epidemic
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 1:29 PM, Marc Riddell > wrote: >> Civility, like courtesy, is contagious - it begins with you. on 2/26/09 8:48 AM, Carcharoth at carcharot...@googlemail.com wrote: > > If it has a shorter lifespan, might need more effort to successfully > inoculate. But you are right, the effects of being polite and civil do > spread. But there will always be some level of incivility. How do you > know when the levels are acceptable once again? When more articles are > being written? My theory is that the articles still get written, just > slower, and some article writers are lost for good (or never arrive). > Carcharoth, I believe the problem we as a community are having with the issue of civility is finding a definition of it that everyone can agree upon. And, since the very concept of civility is so highly subjective, that agreeing upon a firm definition is impossible. That's what I meant when I said before. "I know it when I see it." If I happen upon a discussion that I'm not directly involved in and feel one or more of the participants are being uncivil, I will interject a comment about it. The culture of a community is what the majority of its members decide it will be. Speaking only of this medium here, when I am directly involved in a discussion and encounter what I feel is an uncivil response to something I have said (whether it be on a mailing list or talk page) I simply ignore it and stay focused on the subject being discussed. If the entire post consists only of an uncivil remark, and doesn't even deal with the issue being discussed, I don't respond at all. This works for me. Marc ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Start an Epidemic
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 1:29 PM, Marc Riddell wrote: > Civility, like courtesy, is contagious - it begins with you. If it has a shorter lifespan, might need more effort to successfully inoculate. But you are right, the effects of being polite and civil do spread. But there will always be some level of incivility. How do you know when the levels are acceptable once again? When more articles are being written? My theory is that the articles still get written, just slower, and some article writers are lost for good (or never arrive). Carcharoth ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
[WikiEN-l] Start an Epidemic
Civility, like courtesy, is contagious - it begins with you. Marc Riddell ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
