Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Ukraine -- is everyone safe?

[Pavlo Shevelo]

Yes, with deep sorrow today I got to know that I was wrong - *we lost one
wikipedian*.

I dare to hope that it will be one and only such 'mistake' meaning no more
dead bodies will be discovered and all heavily wounded people will survive.


On Sun, Feb 23, 2014 at 11:16 PM, Amir E. Aharoni <
amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:

> Big sigh.
>
> According to Wikimedia Ukraine blog, one Wikimedian was killed: Ihor
> Kostenko, a student of Geography born in 1991.
>
>
> http://wikimediaukraine.wordpress.com/2014/02/23/in-memoriam-of-ihor-kostenko/
>
> You can express condolences here:
> https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ig2000/Пам'ять
>
>
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
>
>
> 2014-02-20 17:25 GMT+04:00 Tomasz W. Kozlowski :
>
> > The BBC reports that at least 22 people have died today in Kiev, Ukraine,
> > as result of the violent clashes between the opposition and the
> government
> > forces.
> >
> > I have briefly visited Maidan Nezalezhnosti in March 2012 on my way to a
> > Wiki Loves Monuments workshop; the city of Kiev and the square itself
> were
> > beautiful, and it is absolutely terrible to witness the events that are
> > happening there now.
> >
> > My thoughts are with Wikimedia Ukraine, which I know has at least a few
> > members living in the city of Kiev, and with other Wikimedia contributors
> > living in that city, as well as in the rest of Ukraine.
> >
> > Please let us know if everyone is safe, and if there is any way we can
> > help you.
> >
> > Stay safe! Залишайтеся в безпеці!
> >
> > Tomasz
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Ukraine -- is everyone safe?

[Pavlo Shevelo]

A lot of cordial thanks to everybody for your concerns and worryings in our
safety as well as your wishes, we appreciate that very much.
As for today all WMUA members are safe (according to information
available), but there is more troubles so dangers (risks) ahead, mainly in
Kharkiv and other cities and parts of Ukraine.

We comprehend the situation in Venezuela and wish that all wikipedians from
there will stay safe as well.

Thanks once again.



On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Tomasz W. Kozlowski  wrote:

> The BBC reports that at least 22 people have died today in Kiev, Ukraine,
> as result of the violent clashes between the opposition and the government
> forces.
>
> I have briefly visited Maidan Nezalezhnosti in March 2012 on my way to a
> Wiki Loves Monuments workshop; the city of Kiev and the square itself were
> beautiful, and it is absolutely terrible to witness the events that are
> happening there now.
>
> My thoughts are with Wikimedia Ukraine, which I know has at least a few
> members living in the city of Kiev, and with other Wikimedia contributors
> living in that city, as well as in the rest of Ukraine.
>
> Please let us know if everyone is safe, and if there is any way we can
> help you.
>
> Stay safe! Залишайтеся в безпеці!
>
> Tomasz
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Announcements] Wikidag 2013

[Pavlo Shevelo]

Hello Ole,

A lot of thanks for your brief but rather informative report. There is one
point (of your report) that is of most interest for us in WMUA:
> *The general assembly criticised the board soundly*

Would you please provide some idea (with some details if possible) what was
the main topics/subjects of the criticism? ...was that criticism unexpected
(so Board members were sudden) or there was something in advance - in
chapter mailing list or elsewhere?

You are the Formand at Wikimedia Danmark, right? I presume it's equivalent
to Chairman of the Board or President of WMDK. What is your own perception
of the criticism (particularly on Wikidag 2013) and critics?

Some our (WMUA) Board members tend to treat criticism as their
'demotivation', 'trolling to distract from creative&productive work', even
'shooting into the head from behind' etc. What about that in WMDK? I was
intend to ask such question anyhow, but my doubts vaporised when I noticed
this
https://twitter.com/kim_bach/status/382750945794600960
twit and (with help of Google Translate) grasped Kim Bach' blog post.

Sincerely,
Pavlo


On Sun, Sep 22, 2013 at 9:52 PM, Ole Palnatoke Andersen
wrote:

> Hi!
>
> We have just concluded "Wikidag 2013" in Denmark, a conference day ending
> with the general assembly of Wikimedia Danmark.
>
> We had six external speakers - three from various organisations, one from
> OpenStreetMap, and two of my personal favourite
> women-on-the-net-with-an-agenda.
>
> The crowd was kinda small, but the discussions were great.
>
> The general assembly criticised the board soundly, yet ended up reelecting
> everybody except the alternate auditor.
>
> Links:
> Call + programme: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikidag_2013
> Storify thingie: http://storify.com/kim_bach/wikidag2013
> Hashtags: #wikidag and #wikidag2013
> Recap (in progress): http://dk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidag_2013
>
> Everything is in Danish, and if your favourite translation service won't
> help, just ask :-)
>
> regards,
> Ole, Wikimedia Danmark
>
>
> --
> http://palnatoke.org * @palnatoke * +4522934588
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

[Pavlo Shevelo]

It seems to me, that Lars in wording
*> **you take a step aside and are no longer actively involved in any Wiki*
means seasoned Wiki veterans, so *former* insiders.


On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 9:30 PM, Fred Bauder  wrote:

> Who is both "independent", knowledgeable, and not involved in a wiki?
>
> All you have to do is read a newspaper or magazine article about
> Wikipedia to realize how hopelessly outsiders get everything wrong.
>
> Fred
>
> > Well, it doesn't matter to me if it is re-invention or not.
> > To me the important thing is to put such an instance in action.
> > And I know for a fact that it doesn't function today since I discussed
> > this question with numerous people in the Wiki-org (like the stewards,
> > the ombudsman etc.)
> >
> > That you are independent doesn't mean that you are not accustomed to how
> > the Wikis work, I would guess that it actually is a prerequisite that you
> > are. It just means that you take a step aside and are no longer actively
> > involved in any Wiki and that you understand your position as an
> > independent arbitrator. This process is handled without difficulties by
> > other organizations.
> >
> > I am involved in work to counteract mobbing on the Internet in general
> > and there are the Wikis today absolutely a part of the problem.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> > Lars Gardenius
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >  Von: Fred Bauder 
> > An: Wikimedia Mailing List 
> > Gesendet: 19:14 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
> > Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
> >
> >
> > That is just a re-invention of the Arbitration Committee. People from an
> > external source nearly always have a fatal flaw; they don't understand
> > how Wikipedia works. More informed people could man the arbitration
> > committee, but that is a matter of documenting what the existing
> > committee does and its effect and educating administrators, potential
> > candidates and the existing committee members on the practical effect of
> > their decisions.
> >
> > Fred
> >
> >> Well that is pretty easy: that Wiki-org will follow the example put up
> >> by
> >> many countries, companies and schools.
> >>
> >> Create an independent instance (i.e. in this case independent of the
> >> Wikis) that you can turn to when you are offended, insulted, mobbed,
> >> harassed or in any way mistreated by people in the Wikis.
> >>
> >> Since so many seems to misunderstand this question, it is not meant to
> >> handle questions about content or policies in the separate Wikis, but
> >> only about the normal human behaviour that we have agreed on shall be
> >> present in a society (today not including the Wikis).
> >>
> >> It is also important that this independent instance shall be
> >> responsible
> >> for that the behaviour in the Wikis are within the boundaries of the
> >> outside society, and therefore also has the right to intervene in a
> >> Wiki,
> >> when members of that Wiki cross that boundary.
> >>
> >> Today there is an increasing problem with mobbing on the Internet. I
> >> don't want the Wikis to be an enclave where this is still allowed.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Lars Gardenius
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 
> >>  Von: Fred Bauder 
> >> An: Wikimedia Mailing List 
> >> Gesendet: 16:04 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
> >> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from
> >> itself
> >>
> >>
> >> Lars,
> >>
> >> Please put your cards on the table. What are your suggested changes?
> >>
> >> Fred
> >>
> >>> I am also more interested in processes than discussing special cases.
> >>> I
> >>> think that was also the meaning of Rui Correia's letter starting this
> >>> thread.
> >>>
> >>> To me there is obvious that there are flaws in the construction of the
> >>> Wiki-organization when it comes to mistreatment and mobbing of users.
> >>> I
> >>> have discussed this question both with the stewards and the ombudsman,
> >>> both tell me that they can't intervene in a Wiki, even if they
> >>> themselves
> >>> object to the behaviour of certain members of that Wiki.
> >>>
> >>> That means that there is no instance outside of the specific Wiki to
> >>> which a harassed and mobbed user can turn. That is I think an
> >>> structural
> >>> error that I believe you don't usually find in any other big
> >>> organization.
> >>>
> >>> I have also studied these pages where "dispute resolution" is handled.
> >>> They do not impress me much. I agree with Rui Correia, it is the same
> >>> people quarreling about the same things and the result is often nil.
> >>>
> >>> So I still think there need to be structural change to handle this
> >>> type
> >>> of problems.
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Lars Gardenius
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 
> >>>  Von: "cro0...@gmail.com" 
> >>> An: Lars Gardenius 
> >>> CC: Wikimedia Mailing List ;
> >>> "fredb...@fairpoint.net" 
> >>> Gesendet: 15:15 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
>

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

[Pavlo Shevelo]

I doubt that scale is only thing which matters.

As to me both enWP and ukWP suffers from lack of community (extremely
important word in Anders' comment) as that despite the fact that fist is
much larger 'town' (even 'city') than svWP, and second is small 'village'.

I mean community solid enough to 'behave' like one organization (Lars
Gardenius pointed to importance of it earlier) .

...and yes, comment
*> I'm sure the
> community of editors is rather small, but they must come from very
>diverse backgrounds.*
(from later note)
is 100% correct about Ukraine.
...but isn't it similar to enWP, where people come from different
countries, so "*diverse backgrounds*" as well?
...which this way or another prevent creation of solid community (whatever
is the size of it)

Sincerely,
Pavlo

On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 3:39 PM, Fred Bauder  wrote:

> That's Sweden all right, it's like a small town. Thousands of
> administrators from scores of countries is another matter. Even requests
> for administration is very difficult as, unless you do big time research,
> or spend your life monitoring others edits and activity, you just don't
> know much. Voting has the same downside; because of the volume you just
> don't have enough information to register an informed opinion, at least
> about individuals. The people you encounter in daily activities while
> editing is only a tiny sliver.
>
> Fred
>
> > It is no magic
> > *yearly reelection of administrators/sysops has meant no bullying types
> > are sysops any more
> > *we are a small community with just a few hundred active. And we have
> > decided to treat everyone (who are serious) as valuable individuals,
> > and go a very long way to make all feeling welcome, stop behaving as
> > overdog/underdog and also to try special solutions for troublesome users
> > that enable them to not being blocked but having restrictions on certain
> > type of activities. Both people who have temporary maniac periods and
> > with autism symptoms can be useful contributers if handled right by the
> > communities.
> >
> > But these experiences can not be extended to everywhere. en:wp have 20
> > times the number of contributers then sv:wp and of course this means
> > need of different ways of handling problems. I do not pretend to have
> > anything to teach en:wp, but as said I find nothing useful for sv:wp
> > hearing of the challenges on en:wp
> >
> > Anders
> >
> >
> > Pavlo Shevelo skrev 2013-09-05 13:36:
> >> Sorry, but I'm not agree with your note, Anders.
> >>
> >> My home WP is not en: (it's uk: in fact) but everything being discussed
> >> is
> >> very (100%) applicable for our community.
> >>
> >> Lucky you are in se:WP that you have no similar issues/problems but
> >> perhaps
> >> you've collected some magical know-how how to avoid said troubles. If
> >> so
> >> would you please share that knowledge & experience?
> >>
> >> Sincerely,
> >> Pavlo
> >>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

[Pavlo Shevelo]

Thank you very much for your input, Anders, it is much appreciated!
You provided some important details and spotlight to see them well.

...but still please be patient to the discussion which might seem boring to
svWP people (and ukWP people are quite jealous and dreaming about having
same feelings when such topics will be discussed in future)  :)

Pavlo


On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 3:05 PM, Anders Wennersten
wrote:

> It is no magic
> *yearly reelection of administrators/sysops has meant no bullying types
> are sysops any more
> *we are a small community with just a few hundred active. And we have
> decided to treat everyone (who are serious) as valuable individuals,  and
> go a very long way to make all feeling welcome, stop behaving as
> overdog/underdog and also to try special solutions for troublesome users
> that enable them to not being blocked but having restrictions on certain
> type of activities. Both people who have temporary maniac periods and with
> autism symptoms can be useful contributers if handled right by the
> communities.
>
> But these experiences can not be extended to everywhere. en:wp have 20
> times the number of contributers then sv:wp and of course this means need
> of different ways of handling problems. I do not pretend to have anything
> to teach en:wp, but as said I find nothing useful for sv:wp hearing of the
> challenges on en:wp
>
> Anders
>
>
> Pavlo Shevelo skrev 2013-09-05 13:36:
>
>> Sorry, but I'm not agree with your note, Anders.
>>
>> My home WP is not en: (it's uk: in fact) but everything being discussed is
>> very (100%) applicable for our community.
>>
>> Lucky you are in se:WP that you have no similar issues/problems but
>> perhaps
>> you've collected some magical know-how how to avoid said troubles. If so
>> would you please share that knowledge & experience?
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Pavlo
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Anders Wennersten
>> **wrote:
>>
>>  Should not this discussion be held on he maillist for English wikipedia?
>>>
>>> There is not much, if any,  of what is being discussed that I can
>>> recognize from my home wp
>>>
>>> Anders
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  __**_
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

[Pavlo Shevelo]

Sorry, but I'm not agree with your note, Anders.

My home WP is not en: (it's uk: in fact) but everything being discussed is
very (100%) applicable for our community.

Lucky you are in se:WP that you have no similar issues/problems but perhaps
you've collected some magical know-how how to avoid said troubles. If so
would you please share that knowledge & experience?

Sincerely,
Pavlo


On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Anders Wennersten
wrote:

> Should not this discussion be held on he maillist for English wikipedia?
>
> There is not much, if any,  of what is being discussed that I can
> recognize from my home wp
>
> Anders
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Hong Kong diary

[Pavlo Shevelo]

That's exactly what Ziko is talking about:
Hierarchy really 'reverts' users into real people, but moreover - it gives
them power to command the resources (people and money are just resources for
many of 'commanders'), and politics - how to gain ASAP and then to keep
...ALAP (as long as possible) the commandment position (through the
elections etc.).

...and that 'ordinary' people suffer of proper knowledge about power,
(democratic) procedures etc. (see the Ziko' explanation), but what is worse
- organisation suffers even more (much more).


On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 9:47 PM, attolippip  wrote:

> yep. i strongly agree
>
> 'an understanding of some basic concepts and ideas' is really important, i
> believe
> but what-makes-wikiworld-go just doesn't seem to work within a 'formal'
> organization
> i wonder if a 'visible' hierarchy 'reverts' users into ordinary people...
>
> ziko, thank you for sharing this!
>
> best regards,
> antanana
>
>
> 2013/8/20 Pavlo Shevelo 
>
> > Hello Ziko,
> >
> > I like your diary very much and I just love your point regarding
> > "fundamental
> > lack of political education among the activists".
> >
> > Regards,
> > Pavlo
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 6:56 PM, Ziko van Dijk  > >wrote:
> >
> > > Dear friends of free knowledge,
> > >
> > > Over the past days I have been approached by many of you with kind
> > remarks
> > > on the experimental WCA year; actually, I am fine and looking forward
> to
> > > finish some work discussed on in Hong Kong. (Let yourself be surprised.
> > :-)
> > > ) Thank you, and see you again soon in Wikimedia country.
> > > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ziko/Hong_Kong_diary
> > >
> > > Kind regards
> > > Ziko
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> 
> > > Dr. Ziko van Dijk
> > > voorzitter / president Wikimedia Nederland
> > >
> > > Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland
> > > Postbus 167
> > > 3500 AD Utrecht
> > > http://wikimedia.nl
> > >
> > >
> >
> 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Hong Kong diary

[Pavlo Shevelo]

Hello Ziko,

I like your diary very much and I just love your point regarding "fundamental
lack of political education among the activists".

Regards,
Pavlo



On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 6:56 PM, Ziko van Dijk wrote:

> Dear friends of free knowledge,
>
> Over the past days I have been approached by many of you with kind remarks
> on the experimental WCA year; actually, I am fine and looking forward to
> finish some work discussed on in Hong Kong. (Let yourself be surprised. :-)
> ) Thank you, and see you again soon in Wikimedia country.
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ziko/Hong_Kong_diary
>
> Kind regards
> Ziko
>
>
> 
> Dr. Ziko van Dijk
> voorzitter / president Wikimedia Nederland
>
> Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland
> Postbus 167
> 3500 AD Utrecht
> http://wikimedia.nl
>
> 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode

[Pavlo Shevelo]

I'm glad that antanana (she don't like capital letters as you can see :) )
joined our discussion.

Now is her very first term in the Board (we reelect the board each year)
and she brought  a lot of 'fresh air' to our Board and proceeds to do so
every day and even night (for example she sent her letter at 3:18 AM local
time) as Chair deputy and Treasurer (very first one in history of WMUA) and
valuable chapter member.
...and she is one of that board members who have no problem to face any
issue (criticism included but critic of her activities should be well
prepared and ... brave :-P).

After I made some introduction of a lady I can return to the topic.
I ask to forgive me in advance for some long explanation (my English will
make it even less comprehensible, sorry for that) but I believe it might be
a good case study for some other chapter(s) so please invest some your
patience.

Yes, antanana  pointed perfectly well that damn 'lots of letters' was the
trigger of the situation.
But even better her input was in focusing our attention to two sorts/kinds
of irritation (that is "a state of inflammation or painful reaction to smth."
as vocabularies inform):
* "it irritates people to get lots of letters" (especially if people
insists to use some mailers less sophisticated in letters grouping,
'foldering' and filtering that Google Mail and alikes)
* "it irritates them to hear something critical or unpleasant" (to some
people critical=extremelyunpleasant)

In said case the first kind of irritation (inflammation) has place as a
consequence of the above mentioned trigger (snowball of a letters), while
the first one is much more valuable (for our case study) as cause of a
letter snowball appearance.

I do believe that many of you know how painful reaction to criticism might
be the the cause of mailing 'explosion' (or turbulence will be better
metaphor?) if not please see explanation in [1] because I'm just unable
to explain better that that (if in English and not in Ukrainian or Russian).

So in our case study two Board members were (and still are :) ) irritated
by criticism addressed to certain (pointed by critics) their actions and
conduct of behaviour (what caused mail turbulence again and again) while
two more Board members were inflamed by letter 'snowballs' arriving to
their mailboxes. Obviously 2+2 gives 4 (in Ukraine as well :-P) what
is majority of 7 so position of 3 other Board members doesn't matter.
Period.

Sincerely,

Pavlo
Member of Wikimedia Ukraine

[1] http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2013-July/127124.html
(please read that text out of it context and see the idea of process of
reaching "unnecessary degree of escalation", when issue "snowballs into
something much larger")




On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 3:18 AM, attolippip  wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> as a member of the board in question, i would like to explain more
>
> But let's not pretend this is a question of a sudden need to set up a new
> mailing list.  That's not what this is about (q) A.
>
> yep. totally agree. this all is about searching for transparent and
> convenient forms of communication
> especially within the chapter. but it is really difficult, it seems :((
> (if possible at all)
> ...and failing
>
> we (as a community) were discussing:
> - a new mailing list (with a public archive), for announcements - if it is
> open, than looking for volunteers is easier, as one can offer help
> even if (s)he is not a member of the organization
> - to leave this mailing list (the one, that was 'switched to 'read-only'
> mode' by the board's decision) for talking - there are some people that are
> used to
> solving problems by talking them[problems] out-of-their-wits with a fair
> lot of letters (so to say)
> - to use irc channel for those wishing to hear answers ASAP and without
> being drown by e-letters (and publish these logs afterwards)
>
> the need was not sudden, but it was too late expressed. it just irritates
> people to get lots of letters
> and it irritates them to hear something critical or unpleasant...
> unfortunately, people TEND to act on their irritation
> thus the above-mentioned Board decision was made...
>
> (...) and we can assume the WMUA membership will judge their action as they
> see fit (q) A.
>
> and i do believe so
>
> best regards,
> antanana
> wikimedia Ukraine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode

[Pavlo Shevelo]

I'm really grateful for your note, Asaf

You comprehend my messages 100% right.
Perhaps even more than that, as I'm just unable to verify whether I'm a
troll (or not, hopefully).

But as to the best of my belief I'm ready to face the fact, that I'm the
troll (how can I know that for sure?) so I'm ready to stay against any
criticism
of being a troll - all kinds of 'duck test' etc., while our board prefers
just to
> *halt the debate rather than face the **criticism*
and said transformation of WMUA central mailing list is just one step in a
row (a very long one - a chain of that "multiple previous rounds").

Well, I was not going to complain (or something like that) - I was mainly
verifying the precedents  as I assured  other WMUA members that we have
something unprecedented at all (in all Wikipedia movement at least).
...and I'm still not complaining :)
Yes it's nobody else but we, WMUA people, should  (Have to, MUST) overcome
all tough issues by ourselves and a lot of that our problems are rooted in
post-USSR situation (I was born in 1956, that's just 3 years after Stalin'
death so I know what I'm talking about) hence they might appear to be
pretty (or even too) ...*specific** *for Wikimedia CH (so for Manuel), WMNL
(so for Ziko) etc. - with all due respect to Manuel, Ziko and others.

And please, PLEASE don't think that WMUA is something very bad, and even
not all of our Board members (we have 7 of them) have said problems with
facing criticism ;)

Now we're in 'full ahead' mode to start WLM'2013 and preparing to make our
Wiki loves Earth (WLE) initiative [1][2][3]  really international (it was
presented in Hong Kong recently and they say it was estimated rather well)
 and ... and ... and ... as well ;)

___

Obviously I'm not closing the topic and all and every further comments,
insights, ...peer reviews will be highly appreciated!

Thanks again, Asaf!!!

Sincerely,

Pavlo Shevelo
Proud member of WMUA

[1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Earth_2014
[2]
http://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/02/13/wikimedia-ukraine-new-photo-contest-wiki-loves-earth/
[3] http://wle.org.ua/english/




On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 9:05 PM, Asaf Bartov  wrote:

> When one reads the links offered by Pavlo, the picture is clearer.  The
> board is trying to suppress on-list criticism with this step, claiming
> "people" (no doubt including Pavlo) are "trolls and spammers".  I think we
> all know things are often not black and white, and that accusations of
> trolling are sometimes used by people to brand legitimate opponents (and
> sometimes people really are trolls).
>
> I can't presume to know whether Pavlo is a troll or not, or what the
> subtance of his criticism is, and how justified it may be.  WMUA's current
> leadership elected to (try to) halt the debate rather than face the
> criticism (no doubt they have engaged in multiple previous rounds as well),
> and we can assume the WMUA membership will judge their action as they see
> fit.
>
> But let's not pretend this is a question of a sudden need to set up a new
> mailing list.  That's not what this is about.
>
>A.
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 9:54 AM, Pavlo Shevelo  >wrote:
>
> > > WikimediaCH-l list to become a closed list due to some issues we
> > had with private information (unwillingly) disclosed on that list.
> > > Nobody questioned that change.
> >
> > The said WMUA mailing list from the moment of creation was closed for
> > anybody else but WMUA members.
> > I was one of the members, who questioned that but after explanation
> > "private
> > information might be (unwillingly) disclosed otherwise" I decided that
> it's
> > not really a matter (or an important one) and stopped questioning.
> >
> > > the chapters community / members have an appropriate place to conduct
> > their work
> >
> > Yours wording is exactly like that (above) while "what Nemo questioned"
> is:
> >
> > "do the member of the chapter have a suitable and working place where to
> > discuss among themselves to carry out their duties and rights as members
> of
> > the chapters?"
> >
> > The main issue is what is "work" for you (and "duties" for Nemo)?
> > The point of WMUA Board is that members MUST do their "work" ("carry out
> > their duties") and execution of Board ruling is part of that. So any
> > critics of Board (or separate Board members) is distraction from the work
> > :)
> >
> > The Nemo mentioned "and rights" in his questioning, so I believe his
> > perception is closer to mine (while critics

Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode

[Pavlo Shevelo]

> WikimediaCH-l list to become a closed list due to some issues we
had with private information (unwillingly) disclosed on that list.
> Nobody questioned that change.

The said WMUA mailing list from the moment of creation was closed for
anybody else but WMUA members.
I was one of the members, who questioned that but after explanation "private
information might be (unwillingly) disclosed otherwise" I decided that it's
not really a matter (or an important one) and stopped questioning.

> the chapters community / members have an appropriate place to conduct
their work

Yours wording is exactly like that (above) while "what Nemo questioned" is:

"do the member of the chapter have a suitable and working place where to
discuss among themselves to carry out their duties and rights as members of
the chapters?"

The main issue is what is "work" for you (and "duties" for Nemo)?
The point of WMUA Board is that members MUST do their "work" ("carry out
their duties") and execution of Board ruling is part of that. So any
critics of Board (or separate Board members) is distraction from the work
:)

The Nemo mentioned "and rights" in his questioning, so I believe his
perception is closer to mine (while critics or at least questioning - is
one of the rights for me and I guess for Nemo as well).



On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 6:58 PM, Manuel Schneider <
manuel.schnei...@wikimedia.ch> wrote:

> Am 18.08.2013 17:47, schrieb Pavlo Shevelo:
> > is there any precedents known, when chapter Board do some alike rulings?
>
> all precedence known to me have been much less restrictive actions, such
> as the WikimediaCH-l list to become a closed list due to some issues we
> had with private information (unwillingly) disclosed on that list.
> Nobody questioned that change.
>
> > Does it seems appropriate?
>
> My personal opinion is that the board may decide so, under consideration
> of what Nemo questioned: That the chapters community / members have an
> appropriate place to conduct their work. This may be disputed as it was
> the formerly open and public list which has been closed but it could
> also be considered that WikiUK-l could act as such place as well.
> So from my point of view it is really up to the community at
> WikimediaUA-l and WikiUK-l whether WikiUK-l is an appropriate
> replacement or if another list is needed due to this change.
>
> /Manuel
> --
> Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode

[Pavlo Shevelo]

Oh Federico (or should I use Nemo as the name? :) ),

Seemingly you almost grasped (groked) what I'm talking about and that
"almost" is caused by my problems in English (it's not my native language
and I suffer from lack of practice :( ).

So we need some more clarification and let me start from the bottom up (as
of the text of your mail):

> that's *the* mailing list for all the internal discussions of the board?
> If it's public, then these is indeed higher "transparency" than in most
chapters (not that this is necessarily a good thing);

Definitely NO, while we think (not only dream) about that level of
transparency. As I'm one of the believers, that "this is necessarily a good
thing", I dared even to propose that several times to Board members.

But from the very beginning of WMUA the Board has separate mailing list
(without archive, what is significant in some situations like change of
Board members) and in addition they build Board' wikisite which is closed
as well (only AC members ver granted by access - after long struggle so as
sorta gifted compromise, while it  was never accepted by the community).
So said mailing list they ...occupy only for "Urbi et orbi" purposes or it
will be more exact to say only for "urbi" (strictly confidential for WMUA).

> on the other hand it does not replace an all-members discussion space.

YES it does replace or, to be more exact, "all-members discussion space" is
converted to Board announcement place (all others but AC is in "sit down
and listen" mode strictly).

> better question is: do the member of the chapter have a suitable and
working place where to discuss among themselves to carry out their duties
and rights as members of the chapter

Since said ruling - not in the mailing list(s), while community Portal
survived (yet? the administrators there are ...surprise - Board and AC
members as well). As we all know discussions on the wiki (like Portals,
Village pumps etc.) doesn't eliminate the need of mailing list.



On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 6:45 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:

> Pavlo Shevelo, 18/08/2013 16:36:
>
>  As for now my question is pretty simple: is there any precedents known,
>> when chapter Board do some alike rulings? Does it seems appropriate?
>>
>
> Sorry, but I think these questions are flawed. A better question is: do
> the member of the chapter have a suitable and working place where to
> discuss among themselves to carry out their duties and rights as members of
> the chapters, as defined by the bylaws?
> (One is not always easy to set up.)
>
>
>
>> If anybody will be interested in context (bigger picture etc.) that is why
>> it was done so (including formal and real causes & motivations), this
>> person will have to go deep into struggle:
>>
>> * for openness ('clearness') of the WMUA Board;
>> * against unethical (and so, in that meaning immoral) behaviour of some
>> of WMUA Board members
>> * ...etc.
>>
>
> So that's *the* mailing list for all the internal discussions of the
> board? If it's public, then these is indeed higher "transparency" than in
> most chapters (not that this is necessarily a good thing); on the other
> hand it does not replace an all-members discussion space.
>
> Nemo
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode

[Pavlo Shevelo]

Dear Manuel,

Thanks for your swift comment & advice, I appreciate (while I'm one of the
administrators at WikiUK-l, by the way :) ).

Forgive me for missing the detail which was obvious for me - I'm WMUA
member (from the moment of it legal registration back in 2009) so I'm from
inside WMUA as a project as well as 40+ more WMUA members (beside Board and
AC). In your wording - I'm well inside of "chapter business", the issue is
with the missing (or invalid?) process "the chapter may decide how to use
that list".

That was clear for me (and explained by me in local discussions - in said
mailing list and on community Portal) that if Board needs something only
for announcements ("WikimediaUA-Announce-l or similar"), they should
contact "folks at WMF" and arrange new, additional list (like WMF Board did
some years after creation of 'universal' list).

In addition to that nobody never settled in proper way, that [WikimediaUA]
is "the project list" (if WMUA is not the project by itself) and, moreover,
it should be  "controlled by the board" to that extent as WMUA Board it
defined and settled for themselves.

So I remain with my question about
is there any precedents known, when chapter Board do some alike rulings?
Does it seems appropriate?

All more advices how to create alternative mailing list with help of:
* "folks at WMF"
* automatic services/stuff  at Google (like Google groups etc.)
will be appreciated, but it's not the main focus of my interest.

Sincerely,

Pavlo


On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 6:03 PM, Manuel Schneider <
manuel.schnei...@wikimedia.ch> wrote:

> Dear Pavlo,
>
> as that list is dedicated to chapter business, the chapter may decide
> how to use that list.
>
> For open discussions of the ukranian language Wikimedia projects there
> is WikiUK-l:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiuk-l
>
> If there is a real need for a seperate list to discuss chapter business
> which is open, not the project list and not controlled by the board I am
> sure that the folks at WMF are happy to help with that. Maybe the new
> list could then become WikimediaUA-l and the current WikimediaUA-l will
> become WikimediaUA-Announce-l or similar. But this should be discussed
> by the concerned community.
>
>
> /Manuel
> --
> Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch
>
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[Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode

[Pavlo Shevelo]

According to WMUA Board decision [1] from now on (today morning) and for
unlimited time period the one and only WMUA chapter mailing list [
WikimediaUA]  [2] (which is very much like [Wikimedia-I]) is switched to
read-only mode for all community members but Board (7 persons) and Audit
Committee (+3 persons), who saved full access for them.

It's like conversion of [Wikimedia-l] into [WikimediaAnnounce-l], but with
much more severe (only for WMF Board announcements) limitations.

Interestingly (if somebody prefer) that moderators of [WikimediaUA] mailing
list from the times long before the said ruling are:
* 2 Board members (Board Chair and Executive director)
and
* 1 member of Audit Committee.
All moderators were appointed (no elections!) by ...Board decision.

As for now my question is pretty simple: is there any precedents known,
when chapter Board do some alike rulings? Does it seems appropriate?

If anybody will be interested in context (bigger picture etc.) that is why
it was done so (including formal and real causes & motivations), this
person will have to go deep into struggle:

* for openness ('clearness') of the WMUA Board;
* against unethical (and so, in that meaning immoral) behaviour of some
of WMUA Board members
* ...etc.

and [3] and [4] are some entry points for that ...'deepness'.

Sincerely,

Pavlo Shevelo
(my WPnick is the same :))

[1]
http://ua.wikimedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D1%96%D1%88%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8F_%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BB%D1%96%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8F_%E2%84%9626/2013_%D0%B2%D1%96%D0%B4_18_%D1%81%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BF%D0%BD%D1%8F_2013

[2] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaua
[3] See the Talk page for [1]
[4]
http://ua.wikimedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1%96%D0%BA%D1%96%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1%96%D0%B0:%D0%9F%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB_%D1%81%D0%BF%D1%96%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8#.D0.A9.D0.BE.D0.B4.D0.BE_.D1.80.D1.96.D1.88.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.BD.D1.8F_.D0.9F.D1.80.D0.B0.D0.B2.D0.BB.D1.96.D0.BD.D0.BD.D1.8F_.E2.84.9626.2F2013_.D0.B2.D1.96.D0.B4_18_.D1.81.D0.B5.D1.80.D0.BF.D0.BD.D1.8F_2013

Sorry, all references are in Ukrainian (with Ukrainian titles, that's why
URLs are so long) but Google translate works reasonably well to give the
idea, at least for [1], which is most important
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] The case for supporting open source machine translation

[Pavlo Shevelo]

> only someone or something
that understands language can translate perfectly

Precisely

> crude translations into little used languages are nearly
worthless due to syntax issues. Useful work requires at least one person
fluent in the language

It's very true!
Current Googe MT tools are reasonably good for reader(s) as they really
provide a chance to grasp the meaning of the text but they are far not good
as writer instrument meaning translation results are far not good to be
published.

So it seems reasonable to promote MT as instrument for visitors (readers)
of our projects, but not as substitute for that Wikimedians, who are the
contributors.


On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 2:03 PM, Fred Bauder  wrote:

> This is closely tied to software which is being developed, some of it
> secretly, to enable machines to understand and use language. As of now
> this will be government and corporate owned and controlled. I say closely
> tied because that is how translation works; only someone or something
> that understands language can translate perfectly.
>
> That said, crude translations into little used languages are nearly
> worthless due to syntax issues. Useful work requires at least one person
> fluent in the language.
>
> Fred
>
>
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