Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimania-l] Setting ticket prices

[James Alexander]

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 11:39 PM, Benjamin Lees wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 6:19 PM, John Mark Vandenberg  >wrote:
>
> > James,
> >
> > In the past you have supported a hardline position regarding
> > publishing of private correspondence, and in circumstances when the
> > reasons for publishing the private correspondence were of greater
> > importance to the community than Rupert's private questions to Nathan,
> > and lots of drama value too.
> >
> >
> >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Durova/Proposed_decision#Private_correspondence
> >
>
> Just to be clear for the record, that was James Forrester, not James
> Alexander.
>
>
Thanks Ben,

As emufarmers points out (sorry, I would have earlier but gmail compresses
this thread into the wikimania-l thread... I missed your email), but that
wasn't me. I stand by my opinion (knowing that not everyone agrees).

James
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimania-l] Setting ticket prices

[Benjamin Lees]

On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 6:19 PM, John Mark Vandenberg wrote:

> James,
>
> In the past you have supported a hardline position regarding
> publishing of private correspondence, and in circumstances when the
> reasons for publishing the private correspondence were of greater
> importance to the community than Rupert's private questions to Nathan,
> and lots of drama value too.
>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Durova/Proposed_decision#Private_correspondence
>

Just to be clear for the record, that was James Forrester, not James
Alexander.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimania-l] Setting ticket prices

[Nathan]

On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 6:19 PM, John Mark Vandenberg wrote:

>
> IMO if Nathan felt that a peaceful and private resolution couldnt or
> shouldnt be achieved via one-on-one email exchange, I think the
> appropriate response is to forward it privately to the list admins.
>
> Rupert should also have taken his concerns about Nathan to the list
> admins, or started a public discussion about top posters to Wikimedia
> lists who have more opinions on mailing lists than contributions to
> the projects, without directly focusing on a single individual.
>
> --
> John Vandenberg
>
>
Sounds like the split here depends on whether you agree with Rupert or not.
In any event, points taken and further posts in this thread on this topic
are probably unnecessary.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimania-l] Setting ticket prices

[John Mark Vandenberg]

On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 4:47 AM, James Alexander
 wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 11:34 AM, Carlos M. Colina
> wrote:
>
>> Wait, are we in kindergarden? I think Rupert's email was sent off-list, so
>> basically there is no need to bring it up to the list, regardless how
>> related it is to the thread. Private discussions between two people should
>> remain that, _private_, no?
>>
>> I just don't get it.
>>
>> M.
>>
>
> While in general that is the goal (private emails staying private) I would
> say that in a case like this, no, you have no expectation of privacy when
> you go 'off list' to, in my opinion, harass and intimidate someone about
> what they did on the list. I think Nathan was completely reasonable to
> bring it back on list and that MZs comment is completely correct. It's like
> 'taking it outside' of a bar to have a fight, the bar is completely
> reasonable in banning you for it and it's still illegal.
>
> Rupert's email was completely unacceptable and I'm glad Nathan brought it
> to our attention rather then either getting into a prolonged off-list
> debate that helps no one or letting it lie so that no one else was aware of
> the attacks.

James,

In the past you have supported a hardline position regarding
publishing of private correspondence, and in circumstances when the
reasons for publishing the private correspondence were of greater
importance to the community than Rupert's private questions to Nathan,
and lots of drama value too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Durova/Proposed_decision#Private_correspondence

IMO if Nathan felt that a peaceful and private resolution couldnt or
shouldnt be achieved via one-on-one email exchange, I think the
appropriate response is to forward it privately to the list admins.

Rupert should also have taken his concerns about Nathan to the list
admins, or started a public discussion about top posters to Wikimedia
lists who have more opinions on mailing lists than contributions to
the projects, without directly focusing on a single individual.

It is unfortunate that we still do not have a dispute resolution body
for issues of this nature, that occur somewhere other than on a wiki
with an arbcom or similar dispute resolution methods, or even an
ombudsman to review decisions of the list admins.

On a bit of a tangent, last week I was wondering whether the new Terms
of use apply to all WMF infrastructure, or just the wikis? I havent
seen a reply to that.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Terms_of_use#What_services_are_covered_by_the_terms_of_use

--
John Vandenberg

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimania-l] Setting ticket prices

[Vira Motorko]

My POV is similar to Carlos's words. I think that private discussions
between two people should remain private.

*Vira Motorko*

Help save natural resources - please think twice before printing this
e-mail or any attachments.


2014-03-24 6:30 GMT+02:00 Carlos M. Colina :

> Definitely a cultural thing -I still don't understand why someone can feel
> intimidated or harassed by that e-mailI'd better not go into details
> because it can be understood as  I'm attacking an ethnic/linguistic group
> of wikimedians :-)
>
>
> Sent from Samsung Mobile
>
>  Original message 
> From: James Alexander 
> Date: 23/03/2014  23:47  (GMT+02:00)
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List 
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimania-l] Setting ticket prices
>
> On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 11:34 AM, Carlos M. Colina
> wrote:
>
> > Wait, are we in kindergarden? I think Rupert's email was sent off-list,
> so
> > basically there is no need to bring it up to the list, regardless how
> > related it is to the thread. Private discussions between two people
> should
> > remain that, _private_, no?
> >
> > I just don't get it.
> >
> > M.
> >
>
> While in general that is the goal (private emails staying private) I would
> say that in a case like this, no, you have no expectation of privacy when
> you go 'off list' to, in my opinion, harass and intimidate someone about
> what they did on the list. I think Nathan was completely reasonable to
> bring it back on list and that MZs comment is completely correct. It's like
> 'taking it outside' of a bar to have a fight, the bar is completely
> reasonable in banning you for it and it's still illegal.
>
> Rupert's email was completely unacceptable and I'm glad Nathan brought it
> to our attention rather then either getting into a prolonged off-list
> debate that helps no one or letting it lie so that no one else was aware of
> the attacks.
>
> James
>
>
> > El 23/03/2014 04:33 p.m., MZMcBride escribió:
> >
> >  I just wanted to chime in here to say that, at least in a vacuum, I
> found
> >> Rupert's e-mail to be highly inappropriate and I found Nathan's response
> >> to it to be wholly appropriate.
> >>
> >> Rupert, I hope to never see a repeat of this incident, in which you
> >> attempt to badger a list participant and Wikimedia volunteer off-list
> with
> >> uninformed and irrelevant questions under the guise of "saving
> bandwidth"
> >> and faux concern. Cut it out.
> >>
> >> MZMcBride
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> >> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee wayuukanairua
> > junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya junain."
> > Carlos Manuel Colina
> > Vicepresidente
> > A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela
> > RIF J-40129321-2
> > +972-52-4869915
> > www.wikimedia.org.ve
> >
> > ___
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> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimania-l] Setting ticket prices

[Carlos M. Colina]

Definitely a cultural thing -I still don't understand why someone can feel 
intimidated or harassed by that e-mailI'd better not go into details 
because it can be understood as  I'm attacking an ethnic/linguistic group of 
wikimedians :-)


Sent from Samsung Mobile

 Original message 
From: James Alexander  
Date: 23/03/2014  23:47  (GMT+02:00) 
To: Wikimedia Mailing List  
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimania-l] Setting ticket prices 
 
On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 11:34 AM, Carlos M. Colina
wrote:

> Wait, are we in kindergarden? I think Rupert's email was sent off-list, so
> basically there is no need to bring it up to the list, regardless how
> related it is to the thread. Private discussions between two people should
> remain that, _private_, no?
>
> I just don't get it.
>
> M.
>

While in general that is the goal (private emails staying private) I would
say that in a case like this, no, you have no expectation of privacy when
you go 'off list' to, in my opinion, harass and intimidate someone about
what they did on the list. I think Nathan was completely reasonable to
bring it back on list and that MZs comment is completely correct. It's like
'taking it outside' of a bar to have a fight, the bar is completely
reasonable in banning you for it and it's still illegal.

Rupert's email was completely unacceptable and I'm glad Nathan brought it
to our attention rather then either getting into a prolonged off-list
debate that helps no one or letting it lie so that no one else was aware of
the attacks.

James


> El 23/03/2014 04:33 p.m., MZMcBride escribió:
>
>  I just wanted to chime in here to say that, at least in a vacuum, I found
>> Rupert's e-mail to be highly inappropriate and I found Nathan's response
>> to it to be wholly appropriate.
>>
>> Rupert, I hope to never see a repeat of this incident, in which you
>> attempt to badger a list participant and Wikimedia volunteer off-list with
>> uninformed and irrelevant questions under the guise of "saving bandwidth"
>> and faux concern. Cut it out.
>>
>> MZMcBride
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>
> --
> "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee wayuukanairua
> junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya junain."
> Carlos Manuel Colina
> Vicepresidente
> A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela
> RIF J-40129321-2
> +972-52-4869915
> www.wikimedia.org.ve
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimania-l] Setting ticket prices

[James Alexander]

On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 11:34 AM, Carlos M. Colina
wrote:

> Wait, are we in kindergarden? I think Rupert's email was sent off-list, so
> basically there is no need to bring it up to the list, regardless how
> related it is to the thread. Private discussions between two people should
> remain that, _private_, no?
>
> I just don't get it.
>
> M.
>

While in general that is the goal (private emails staying private) I would
say that in a case like this, no, you have no expectation of privacy when
you go 'off list' to, in my opinion, harass and intimidate someone about
what they did on the list. I think Nathan was completely reasonable to
bring it back on list and that MZs comment is completely correct. It's like
'taking it outside' of a bar to have a fight, the bar is completely
reasonable in banning you for it and it's still illegal.

Rupert's email was completely unacceptable and I'm glad Nathan brought it
to our attention rather then either getting into a prolonged off-list
debate that helps no one or letting it lie so that no one else was aware of
the attacks.

James


> El 23/03/2014 04:33 p.m., MZMcBride escribió:
>
>  I just wanted to chime in here to say that, at least in a vacuum, I found
>> Rupert's e-mail to be highly inappropriate and I found Nathan's response
>> to it to be wholly appropriate.
>>
>> Rupert, I hope to never see a repeat of this incident, in which you
>> attempt to badger a list participant and Wikimedia volunteer off-list with
>> uninformed and irrelevant questions under the guise of "saving bandwidth"
>> and faux concern. Cut it out.
>>
>> MZMcBride
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> 
>>
>
> --
> "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee wayuukanairua
> junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya junain."
> Carlos Manuel Colina
> Vicepresidente
> A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela
> RIF J-40129321-2
> +972-52-4869915
> www.wikimedia.org.ve
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimania-l] Setting ticket prices

[Carlos M. Colina]

Wait, are we in kindergarden? I think Rupert's email was sent off-list, 
so basically there is no need to bring it up to the list, regardless how 
related it is to the thread. Private discussions between two people 
should remain that, _private_, no?


I just don't get it.

M.
El 23/03/2014 04:33 p.m., MZMcBride escribió:

I just wanted to chime in here to say that, at least in a vacuum, I found
Rupert's e-mail to be highly inappropriate and I found Nathan's response
to it to be wholly appropriate.

Rupert, I hope to never see a repeat of this incident, in which you
attempt to badger a list participant and Wikimedia volunteer off-list with
uninformed and irrelevant questions under the guise of "saving bandwidth"
and faux concern. Cut it out.

MZMcBride



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--
"*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee wayuukanairua 
junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya junain."

Carlos Manuel Colina
Vicepresidente
A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela
RIF J-40129321-2
+972-52-4869915
www.wikimedia.org.ve
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimania-l] Setting ticket prices

[MZMcBride]

I just wanted to chime in here to say that, at least in a vacuum, I found
Rupert's e-mail to be highly inappropriate and I found Nathan's response
to it to be wholly appropriate.

Rupert, I hope to never see a repeat of this incident, in which you
attempt to badger a list participant and Wikimedia volunteer off-list with
uninformed and irrelevant questions under the guise of "saving bandwidth"
and faux concern. Cut it out.

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimania-l] Setting ticket prices

[Nathan]

On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 1:35 AM, rupert THURNER wrote:

> as i overrun my monthly limit of mails allowed on this list already,
> and i do not want an unrelated discussion on a public mailing list,
> this in private:
>
> nathan, would you be so kind to invest a little bit more thought into
> your mails? i pay bandwith for receiving your mails, and thousands of
> others also. just a couple of questions you might consider answering
> for yourself before contributing to a discussion about ticket prices
> on wikimania:
> * do you edit wikipedia, and how much?
> * if you do not edit, why? and why you use the time to write emails?
> and make others read your emails?
> * do you give money to wikimedia, and how much?
> * do you write software for wikimedia, and how much?
> * do you participate in conferences, meetings, and how many?
> * do you know accounting, and are able to calculate "the price of
> attending"?
> * if paid persons help organizing, this means a conference in UK is
> much more expensive than say in tansania?
> * should we host conferences then only in low wage, good connected
> cities, like mumbai?
> * if you go, what persons you want to meet there? beggars? subsidized
> people? not price sensitive people?
> * if you give money, would you like to attach a string, like "only for
> server operations"?
> * did you ever think that subsidizing people who need is a government
> business in many countries?
> * do you think i missed some angles in the above list?
>
> i even did a little research before sending this email. if you look at
> your stats, you write minimum 10-20 mails to "the movement" every
> month:
> * http://www.infodisiac.com/Wikipedia/ScanMail/Nathan.html
> * http://www.infodisiac.com/Wikipedia/ScanMail/_PowerPosters.html
>
> and by writing such emails, you even earn recognition:
>
> http://sciencepolice2010.wordpress.com/2013/02/25/the-wiki-wankers-2-nathan-awrich/
>
> i'd be really glad to see mails from you where i can notice that you
> put some work into that mail, which helps me to learn new things, get
> new angles, and progress. and i even would not care if, instead 20, i
> only have to read 2 a month.
>
> best regards and a happy sunday,
> rupert.
>
>
Hi Rupert,

I've been reading and responding to the list since 2007. I edit the English
Wikipedia from time to time, under my name or anonymously, although not
nearly as much as I used to... but I remain a believer in and supporter of
the Wikimedia movement, and I try to keep current on its progress. Once in
awhile I offer my thoughts on one of the mailing lists, and I have donated
money in the past (but not since WMF revenue crested into the tens of
millions). I do attend conferences, and I am familiar with the principles
of accounting.

It is true that sometimes I get "recognition" of the type you link to,
where a banned user researched my background, discussed it on his blog,
labeled me a psychopath and suggested I be fired from my job. Along with an
old threat of a lawsuit from an Italian megamillionaire, I consider such
interactions the price of supporting Wikimedia under my real identity. Yet
though I have answered your questions, I no more need to justify how I use
my time to you than I do to the "sciencepolice" blogger. If you would
prefer not to waste bandwidth on receiving my posts, feel free to filter
them out. I won't return the favor, because telling people I disagree with
to sit down and shut up just isn't my style.

Have a great rest of the weekend yourself,
Nathan
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