Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Education] non-technical community wish: Invitational essay authorship contest

[James Salsman]

Hi Mathieu,

I was heartened to read your questions and conclusions:

> If you take that into consideration, how might you even begin to consider
> that there are any consensual ordering possible? ...
> you can not provide a well-order[ing.]

Referring to why I want to offer eligibility in the essay contest to
the top half of student editors, I agree with you that any assessment
of overall student rank from any set of metrics will not be a scalar
value, but a confidence interval or a central tendency and variance.
Therefore, since my actual intent was to offer eligibility to the top
35%, I nominally offer it to the top 50%.

The present value of outcomes is not always equal to nominal values,
e.g. in societies which could die of preventable communicable diseases
arising among the poor and thus would all be better off if the rich
are taxed to pay for the healthcare of the poor -- thereby increasing
the actual wealth of everyone including those whose nominal wealth
decreases -- but the proportion of optimal transfer incidence relative
to the expected amount of charity and philanthropy is another matter
for a future essay proposal.

> what if "the best" essay writer in the pool you are targeting will be on the 
> contrary repelled by such a contest?

That is a risk well worth taking.

> I'm not against fostering the idea of writing orignal essays around and within
> the Wikimedia movement
> maybe a dedicated project for essays might make some sense.

I am only proposing a periodic contest, to be archived e.g. on Meta. I
look forward to further engagement from the foundations. Back when I
was the only one arguing for market rate Foundation staff salaries,
some of the most fervent opponents were in the Foundation. It is not
uncommon to see people voting against their own interests
occasionally. It's quite common in some parts of the U.S. Thank
goodness the foundations have a higher grade of thinkers.

Best regards,
Jim


On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 1:57 PM, mathieu stumpf guntz
 wrote:
> Saluton,
>
> To my mind, this whole discussion doesn't make any sense as it is all
> grounded on suspect hypotheses.
>
> First, what do you call an essay? I think that for such a work the author
> must instill selfness in it. As say Montaigne "c’eſt moy que ie peins". If
> you take that into consideration, how might you even begin to consider that
> there are any consensual ordering possible? Actually, a "commissioned essay"
> sounds more like an oxymoron than anything else.
>
> Concerning the proposed subject, I would advise any person considering
> answering such a tricksy question to first question its premises. You might
> even explore the strict opposite question: can any institution ever give
> enough to a person for all the time dedicated into integrating its
> expectations? All this time that nothing will ever give back, and not spent
> in other life experiences that the said institution might not care about but
> that would be far more enjoyable.
>
> So, to answer the last question, that's not simply your dichotomy which is
> false, it's the whole underlying premise set your are pushing that is total
> nonsense. No, you can not provide a well-order relation on any set for any
> property.
>
> Moreover you seems to think that it suffices to drop money to achieve
> attracting "the best possible essay" in the scope of your nonsense contest.
> But what if "the best" essay writer in the pool you are targeting will be on
> the contrary repelled by such a contest?
>
> Now, I'm not against fostering the idea of writing orignal essays around and
> within the Wikimedia movement. Currently, I don't think we have a clear
> dedicated project for that, although I come across some of them which are
> usually stored on Meta, in user namespaces, or on Wikibooks (for example A
> Lecture on the Limits of Human Knowledge). So maybe a dedicated project for
> essays might make some sense.
>
> Eseete,
> mathieu
>
> Le 22/11/2017 à 19:05, James Salsman a écrit :
>
> Thanks, Lucas. I am happy to discuss the idea.
>
> I believe that there is strong evidence against the proposition that
> the best editors are skilled in writing articles but not essays.
>
> LiAnna and Tighe, do you have any reasons to believe that editors
> skilled in composing both articles and essays are not superior to
> editors skilled in articles only? Is there a false dichotomy in
> believing that one or the other could be preferable to both?
>
> Best regards,
> Jim
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 6:18 PM, Lucas Teles  wrote:
>
> Maybe you should first discuss any contest like this with community and
> then come with a suitable idea.
>
> Your willingness to invest on this is something valuable and should be used
> on a project that fits with WMF goals.
>
> Teles
>
> Em ter, 21 de nov de 2017 às 14:19, Tighe Flanagan 
> escreveu:
>
> To echo LiAnna and Wiki Education's take, the Wikimedia Foundation's

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Education] non-technical community wish: Invitational essay authorship contest

[mathieu stumpf guntz]

Saluton,

To my mind, this whole discussion doesn't make any sense as it is all 
grounded on suspect hypotheses.


First, what do you call an essay? I think that for such a work the 
author must instill selfness in it. As say Montaigne 
 "c’eſt moy 
que ie peins ". If you 
take that into consideration, how might you even begin to consider that 
there are any consensual ordering possible? Actually, a "commissioned 
essay" sounds more like an oxymoron than anything else.


Concerning the proposed subject, I would advise any person considering 
answering such a tricksy question to first question its premises. You 
might even explore the strict opposite question: can any institution 
ever give enough to a person for all the time dedicated into integrating 
its expectations? All this time that nothing will ever give back, and 
not spent in other life experiences that the said institution might not 
care about but that would be far more enjoyable.


So, to answer the last question, that's not simply your dichotomy which 
is false, it's the whole underlying premise set your are pushing that is 
total nonsense. No, you can not provide a well-order 
 relation on any set for any 
property.


Moreover you seems to think that it suffices to drop money to achieve 
attracting "the best possible essay" in the scope of your nonsense 
contest. But what if "the best" essay writer in the pool you are 
targeting will be on the contrary repelled by such a contest?


Now, I'm not against fostering the idea of writing orignal essays around 
and within the Wikimedia movement. Currently, I don't think we have a 
clear dedicated project for that, although I come across some of them 
which are usually stored on Meta 
, in user namespaces 
, or on Wikibooks 
(for example A Lecture on the Limits of Human Knowledge 
). 
So maybe a dedicated project for essays might make some sense.


Eseete,
mathieu

Le 22/11/2017 à 19:05, James Salsman a écrit :

Thanks, Lucas. I am happy to discuss the idea.

I believe that there is strong evidence against the proposition that
the best editors are skilled in writing articles but not essays.

LiAnna and Tighe, do you have any reasons to believe that editors
skilled in composing both articles and essays are not superior to
editors skilled in articles only? Is there a false dichotomy in
believing that one or the other could be preferable to both?

Best regards,
Jim


On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 6:18 PM, Lucas Teles  wrote:

Maybe you should first discuss any contest like this with community and
then come with a suitable idea.

Your willingness to invest on this is something valuable and should be used
on a project that fits with WMF goals.

Teles

Em ter, 21 de nov de 2017 às 14:19, Tighe Flanagan 
escreveu:


To echo LiAnna and Wiki Education's take, the Wikimedia Foundation's
education team support activities that get students to contribute to
Wikimedia projects as part of their learning. While the contexts may vary
from country to country and classroom to classroom, the students contribute
according to Wikimedia project norms (neutrality, citations, etc). This
type of proposed assignment/competition seems out of scope and we could not
support it on our end either.

Best,
Tighe

--
Tighe Flanagan
Senior Manager, Wikipedia Education Program
Wikimedia Foundation
tflana...@wikimedia.org
education.wikimedia.org

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 11:52 AM, LiAnna Davis  wrote:


On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 1:27 AM, James Salsman 

wrote:

I offer $50 USD first prize and $25 for the runner-up for the best
twelve paragraph essay on the topic of whether college students are
likely to pay more in income taxes over their lifetime than the
present value of the entire amount of their college tuition, room, and
board expenses.

This contest is open only to the top 50% of participants in the
Wikimedia Education Program or WikiEd Foundation's student editors.

If there are any objections to this contest, please let me know. If
there are any reasons it shouldn't be communicated to the eligible,
please let me know. I ask both foundations to match my award, taking
the prizes to $150 and $75 if they agree. Thank you!



No. At the Wiki Education Foundation, we focus on teaching students to
write neutral, fact-based encyclopedia articles instead of essays; our
asking them to write essays would be counterproductive given the mission

of

our program, our organization, and the Wikimedia movement. We will not
support this effort, and ask that you do not reach out to them on your

own.

LiAnna


--
LiAnna Davis
Director of Programs; 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Education] non-technical community wish: Invitational essay authorship contest

[Lucas Teles]

Maybe you should first discuss any contest like this with community and
then come with a suitable idea.

Your willingness to invest on this is something valuable and should be used
on a project that fits with WMF goals.

Teles

Em ter, 21 de nov de 2017 às 14:19, Tighe Flanagan 
escreveu:

> To echo LiAnna and Wiki Education's take, the Wikimedia Foundation's
> education team support activities that get students to contribute to
> Wikimedia projects as part of their learning. While the contexts may vary
> from country to country and classroom to classroom, the students contribute
> according to Wikimedia project norms (neutrality, citations, etc). This
> type of proposed assignment/competition seems out of scope and we could not
> support it on our end either.
>
> Best,
> Tighe
>
> --
> Tighe Flanagan
> Senior Manager, Wikipedia Education Program
> Wikimedia Foundation
> tflana...@wikimedia.org
> education.wikimedia.org
>
> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 11:52 AM, LiAnna Davis  wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 1:27 AM, James Salsman 
> wrote:
> >
> > > I offer $50 USD first prize and $25 for the runner-up for the best
> > > twelve paragraph essay on the topic of whether college students are
> > > likely to pay more in income taxes over their lifetime than the
> > > present value of the entire amount of their college tuition, room, and
> > > board expenses.
> > >
> > > This contest is open only to the top 50% of participants in the
> > > Wikimedia Education Program or WikiEd Foundation's student editors.
> > >
> > > If there are any objections to this contest, please let me know. If
> > > there are any reasons it shouldn't be communicated to the eligible,
> > > please let me know. I ask both foundations to match my award, taking
> > > the prizes to $150 and $75 if they agree. Thank you!
> > >
> >
> >
> > No. At the Wiki Education Foundation, we focus on teaching students to
> > write neutral, fact-based encyclopedia articles instead of essays; our
> > asking them to write essays would be counterproductive given the mission
> of
> > our program, our organization, and the Wikimedia movement. We will not
> > support this effort, and ask that you do not reach out to them on your
> own.
> >
> > LiAnna
> >
> >
> > --
> > LiAnna Davis
> > Director of Programs; Deputy Director
> > Wiki Education
> > www.wikiedu.org
> > ___
> > Education mailing list
> > educat...@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/education
> >
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-- 
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Wikimedia Commons.
Sent from mobile. Please, excuse my brevity.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Education] non-technical community wish: Invitational essay authorship contest

[Tighe Flanagan]

To echo LiAnna and Wiki Education's take, the Wikimedia Foundation's
education team support activities that get students to contribute to
Wikimedia projects as part of their learning. While the contexts may vary
from country to country and classroom to classroom, the students contribute
according to Wikimedia project norms (neutrality, citations, etc). This
type of proposed assignment/competition seems out of scope and we could not
support it on our end either.

Best,
Tighe

--
Tighe Flanagan
Senior Manager, Wikipedia Education Program
Wikimedia Foundation
tflana...@wikimedia.org
education.wikimedia.org

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 11:52 AM, LiAnna Davis  wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 1:27 AM, James Salsman  wrote:
>
> > I offer $50 USD first prize and $25 for the runner-up for the best
> > twelve paragraph essay on the topic of whether college students are
> > likely to pay more in income taxes over their lifetime than the
> > present value of the entire amount of their college tuition, room, and
> > board expenses.
> >
> > This contest is open only to the top 50% of participants in the
> > Wikimedia Education Program or WikiEd Foundation's student editors.
> >
> > If there are any objections to this contest, please let me know. If
> > there are any reasons it shouldn't be communicated to the eligible,
> > please let me know. I ask both foundations to match my award, taking
> > the prizes to $150 and $75 if they agree. Thank you!
> >
>
>
> No. At the Wiki Education Foundation, we focus on teaching students to
> write neutral, fact-based encyclopedia articles instead of essays; our
> asking them to write essays would be counterproductive given the mission of
> our program, our organization, and the Wikimedia movement. We will not
> support this effort, and ask that you do not reach out to them on your own.
>
> LiAnna
>
>
> --
> LiAnna Davis
> Director of Programs; Deputy Director
> Wiki Education
> www.wikiedu.org
> ___
> Education mailing list
> educat...@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/education
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Education] non-technical community wish: Invitational essay authorship contest

[LiAnna Davis]

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 1:27 AM, James Salsman  wrote:

> I offer $50 USD first prize and $25 for the runner-up for the best
> twelve paragraph essay on the topic of whether college students are
> likely to pay more in income taxes over their lifetime than the
> present value of the entire amount of their college tuition, room, and
> board expenses.
>
> This contest is open only to the top 50% of participants in the
> Wikimedia Education Program or WikiEd Foundation's student editors.
>
> If there are any objections to this contest, please let me know. If
> there are any reasons it shouldn't be communicated to the eligible,
> please let me know. I ask both foundations to match my award, taking
> the prizes to $150 and $75 if they agree. Thank you!
>


No. At the Wiki Education Foundation, we focus on teaching students to
write neutral, fact-based encyclopedia articles instead of essays; our
asking them to write essays would be counterproductive given the mission of
our program, our organization, and the Wikimedia movement. We will not
support this effort, and ask that you do not reach out to them on your own.

LiAnna


-- 
LiAnna Davis
Director of Programs; Deputy Director
Wiki Education
www.wikiedu.org
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