Re: [Wikimedia-l] Tool to help reaching community consensus

2017-12-09 Thread Gergo Tisza 
On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 4:51 AM, mathieu stumpf guntz <
psychosl...@culture-libre.org> wrote:

> Loomio offers free use for community cases. But it's non-free software, as
> far as I can see, but I didn't made deep inquiry. So I wondered if anyone
> was aware of a free software equivalent.
>

The WMF has used Loomio internally in the past for bottom-up generation and
vetting of proposals. Personally I found it unimpressive - it's basically a
forum software with flat threads and voting, and some UI choices to make
the voting part stand out more. I don't think it has any advantage over the
average wiki RfC, apart from not having to know how to edit wikitext.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Tool to help reaching community consensus

2017-12-08 Thread Denny Vrandečić 
Ah, thanks for the clarification. Sorry for having missed the irony.

Cheers,
Denny


On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 2:39 AM mathieu stumpf guntz <
psychosl...@culture-libre.org> wrote:

>
>
> Le 07/12/2017 à 18:12, Denny Vrandečić a écrit :
>
> Mathieu,
>
> you wrote
>
>
> Despite the fact that reaching community consensus is an easy task,
>
> I just wanted to check whether that was a typo, irony, or actually meant
> that way. In the latter case, I would like to ask for {{cn}}.
>
> Sorry, some emoticon was missing here to make things more clear. It's
> plain irony here.
>
> Reaching and establishing community consensus seems to me one of the
> hardest tasks we are facing, which is why this sentence astonished me, and
> made me think whether I missed something fundamental.
>
> I completely agree with you that this is among the most hardest tasks.
> More broadly, to my mind, communication and empathy are among the less well
> developed topic in education relatively to their prominent importance in
> all domain where humans have to pay attention.
>
> Kind regards
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Tool to help reaching community consensus

2017-12-08 Thread mathieu stumpf guntz 
Thank you James for the link. The section is now archived in 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#What_percentage_support_should_be_needed_for_a_policy_proposal_on_Wikipedia_to_pass?



Le 07/12/2017 à 19:38, James Heilman a écrit :

Am with Denny on this. We are currently discussing what "consensus" means
and how to achieve it on EN WP.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#What_percentage_support_should_be_needed_for_a_policy_proposal_on_Wikipedia_to_pass
?

James

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Denny Vrandečić 
wrote:


Mathieu,

you wrote


Despite the fact that reaching community consensus is an easy task,

I just wanted to check whether that was a typo, irony, or actually meant
that way. In the latter case, I would like to ask for {{cn}}.

Reaching and establishing community consensus seems to me one of the
hardest tasks we are facing, which is why this sentence astonished me, and
made me think whether I missed something fundamental.

Cheers,
Denny

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 8:56 AM Kunal Mehta  wrote:


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Hi,

On 12/07/2017 04:51 AM, mathieu stumpf guntz wrote:

Loomio offers free use for community cases. But it's non-free
software, as far as I can see, but I didn't made deep inquiry. So I
wondered if anyone was aware of a free software equivalent.

Loomio is free software, it's licensed under the GNU Affero General
Public License[1][2].

[1] https://github.com/loomio/loomio/blob/master/LICENSE.txt
[2] https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-affero-gpl.html

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Tool to help reaching community consensus

2017-12-08 Thread mathieu stumpf guntz 



Le 07/12/2017 à 18:12, Denny Vrandečić a écrit :

Mathieu,

you wrote


Despite the fact that reaching community consensus is an easy task,

I just wanted to check whether that was a typo, irony, or actually meant
that way. In the latter case, I would like to ask for {{cn}}.
Sorry, some emoticon was missing here to make things more clear. It's 
plain irony here.

Reaching and establishing community consensus seems to me one of the
hardest tasks we are facing, which is why this sentence astonished me, and
made me think whether I missed something fundamental.
I completely agree with you that this is among the most hardest tasks. 
More broadly, to my mind, communication and empathy are among the less 
well developed topic in education relatively to their prominent 
importance in all domain where humans have to pay attention.


Kind regards
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Tool to help reaching community consensus

2017-12-07 Thread Alex Power 
Consensus is easy to obtain when trying to solve easy problems, and hard to
obtain when trying to solve hard problems.  I doubt that this tool will
change that.

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Denny Vrandečić 
wrote:

> Mathieu,
>
> you wrote
>
> > Despite the fact that reaching community consensus is an easy task,
>
> I just wanted to check whether that was a typo, irony, or actually meant
> that way. In the latter case, I would like to ask for {{cn}}.
>
> Reaching and establishing community consensus seems to me one of the
> hardest tasks we are facing, which is why this sentence astonished me, and
> made me think whether I missed something fundamental.
>
> Cheers,
> Denny
>
> On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 8:56 AM Kunal Mehta  wrote:
>
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > Hash: SHA512
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > On 12/07/2017 04:51 AM, mathieu stumpf guntz wrote:
> > > Loomio offers free use for community cases. But it's non-free
> > > software, as far as I can see, but I didn't made deep inquiry. So I
> > > wondered if anyone was aware of a free software equivalent.
> >
> > Loomio is free software, it's licensed under the GNU Affero General
> > Public License[1][2].
> >
> > [1] https://github.com/loomio/loomio/blob/master/LICENSE.txt
> > [2] https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-affero-gpl.html
> >
> > - -- Legoktm
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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> > -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> >
> > ___
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>



-- 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Tool to help reaching community consensus

2017-12-07 Thread Chico Venancio 
Loomio is free software as well, I guess you could host your own instance
if you find their interface preferable, though I don't think we could (or
should) achieve consensus to move decisions offwiki.

Chico Venancio

Em 7 de dez de 2017 10:17, "Philippe Beaudette" 
escreveu:

Other than mediawiki, with some extensions?  I'm not trying to be snarky,
but there's not a ton on that page that can't be done with mediawiki.  :-)

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 4:51 AM, mathieu stumpf guntz <
psychosl...@culture-libre.org> wrote:

> Saluton ĉiuj,
>
> Despite the fact that reaching community consensus is an easy task, I'm
> nonetheless wasting time at looking for tools which might help achieve
> that. I just red /4 simplaj ideoj por direkti vian komunumon al
> interkonsento/  komunumon-al-interkonsento#comments> (4 simple ideas to drive your
> community toward consensus, I'm not aware of an available translation)
> written by David de Ugarte  opedia/david-de-ugarte> (in Spanish), which point to Loomio <
> https://www.loomio.org/> as a possible tool for just that.
>
> Loomio offers free use for community cases. But it's non-free software, as
> far as I can see, but I didn't made deep inquiry. So I wondered if anyone
> was aware of a free software equivalent.
>
> Ĝis baldaŭ
>
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--


Philippe Beaudette

phili...@beaudette.me
415-275-1424
415-889-9614
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Tool to help reaching community consensus

2017-12-07 Thread James Heilman 
Am with Denny on this. We are currently discussing what "consensus" means
and how to achieve it on EN WP.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#What_percentage_support_should_be_needed_for_a_policy_proposal_on_Wikipedia_to_pass
?

James

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Denny Vrandečić 
wrote:

> Mathieu,
>
> you wrote
>
> > Despite the fact that reaching community consensus is an easy task,
>
> I just wanted to check whether that was a typo, irony, or actually meant
> that way. In the latter case, I would like to ask for {{cn}}.
>
> Reaching and establishing community consensus seems to me one of the
> hardest tasks we are facing, which is why this sentence astonished me, and
> made me think whether I missed something fundamental.
>
> Cheers,
> Denny
>
> On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 8:56 AM Kunal Mehta  wrote:
>
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > Hash: SHA512
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > On 12/07/2017 04:51 AM, mathieu stumpf guntz wrote:
> > > Loomio offers free use for community cases. But it's non-free
> > > software, as far as I can see, but I didn't made deep inquiry. So I
> > > wondered if anyone was aware of a free software equivalent.
> >
> > Loomio is free software, it's licensed under the GNU Affero General
> > Public License[1][2].
> >
> > [1] https://github.com/loomio/loomio/blob/master/LICENSE.txt
> > [2] https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-affero-gpl.html
> >
> > - -- Legoktm
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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> > -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> >
> > ___
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>



-- 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Tool to help reaching community consensus

2017-12-07 Thread Denny Vrandečić 
Mathieu,

you wrote

> Despite the fact that reaching community consensus is an easy task,

I just wanted to check whether that was a typo, irony, or actually meant
that way. In the latter case, I would like to ask for {{cn}}.

Reaching and establishing community consensus seems to me one of the
hardest tasks we are facing, which is why this sentence astonished me, and
made me think whether I missed something fundamental.

Cheers,
Denny

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 8:56 AM Kunal Mehta  wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA512
>
> Hi,
>
> On 12/07/2017 04:51 AM, mathieu stumpf guntz wrote:
> > Loomio offers free use for community cases. But it's non-free
> > software, as far as I can see, but I didn't made deep inquiry. So I
> > wondered if anyone was aware of a free software equivalent.
>
> Loomio is free software, it's licensed under the GNU Affero General
> Public License[1][2].
>
> [1] https://github.com/loomio/loomio/blob/master/LICENSE.txt
> [2] https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-affero-gpl.html
>
> - -- Legoktm
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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>
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Tool to help reaching community consensus

2017-12-07 Thread Kunal Mehta 
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Hi,

On 12/07/2017 04:51 AM, mathieu stumpf guntz wrote:
> Loomio offers free use for community cases. But it's non-free
> software, as far as I can see, but I didn't made deep inquiry. So I
> wondered if anyone was aware of a free software equivalent.

Loomio is free software, it's licensed under the GNU Affero General
Public License[1][2].

[1] https://github.com/loomio/loomio/blob/master/LICENSE.txt
[2] https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-affero-gpl.html

- -- Legoktm
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Tool to help reaching community consensus

2017-12-07 Thread mathieu stumpf guntz 


Le 07/12/2017 à 14:17, Philippe Beaudette a écrit :

Other than mediawiki, with some extensions?  I'm not trying to be snarky,
but there's not a ton on that page that can't be done with mediawiki.  :-)


:)

But, do you have specific extensions in mind? I didn't test loomio 
actually, but it is clear that we might have benefited from more 
apropriate tools for the wikimedia strategy consultation for example. 
Having a person which have to sum up everything in tables might not be 
the more effective way to make important information and decisional 
cornerstone emerge. Even launching a "word cloud" wasn't done, as far as 
I know.



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Tool to help reaching community consensus

2017-12-07 Thread Philippe Beaudette 
Other than mediawiki, with some extensions?  I'm not trying to be snarky,
but there's not a ton on that page that can't be done with mediawiki.  :-)

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 4:51 AM, mathieu stumpf guntz <
psychosl...@culture-libre.org> wrote:

> Saluton ĉiuj,
>
> Despite the fact that reaching community consensus is an easy task, I'm
> nonetheless wasting time at looking for tools which might help achieve
> that. I just red /4 simplaj ideoj por direkti vian komunumon al
> interkonsento/  komunumon-al-interkonsento#comments> (4 simple ideas to drive your
> community toward consensus, I'm not aware of an available translation)
> written by David de Ugarte  opedia/david-de-ugarte> (in Spanish), which point to Loomio <
> https://www.loomio.org/> as a possible tool for just that.
>
> Loomio offers free use for community cases. But it's non-free software, as
> far as I can see, but I didn't made deep inquiry. So I wondered if anyone
> was aware of a free software equivalent.
>
> Ĝis baldaŭ
>
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-- 


Philippe Beaudette

phili...@beaudette.me
415-275-1424
415-889-9614
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[Wikimedia-l] Tool to help reaching community consensus

2017-12-07 Thread mathieu stumpf guntz 

Saluton ĉiuj,

Despite the fact that reaching community consensus is an easy task, I'm 
nonetheless wasting time at looking for tools which might help achieve 
that. I just red /4 simplaj ideoj por direkti vian komunumon al 
interkonsento/ 
 
(4 simple ideas to drive your community toward consensus, I'm not aware 
of an available translation) written by David de Ugarte 
 (in Spanish), 
which point to Loomio  as a possible tool for 
just that.


Loomio offers free use for community cases. But it's non-free software, 
as far as I can see, but I didn't made deep inquiry. So I wondered if 
anyone was aware of a free software equivalent.


Ĝis baldaŭ

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