Re: [Wikimediach-l] [PROPOSITION] Wiki only for members
where would you suggeest to document the state of cooperation talks with e.g. zurich university library? would the archive of the executive ml be sufficient? rupert On Jan 22, 2012 4:52 PM, Manuel Schneider manuel.schnei...@wikimedia.ch wrote: On 01/22/2012 04:42 PM, Ilario Valdelli wrote: The WM CH have to communicate with the world and with the press, with the members, with WMF, with other chapters/communities, with the owners of the projects. Two wikis are not sufficient. It's two wikis (board + members), website, Meta Wiki, CiviCRM... plus several mailinglists. I think that's more than enough. It means that the press release of SOPA, for example, needs to be created in one restricted area, discussed internally with other members and made it public. It means that one communication can be managed in three different level of communication and in three different websites. Well, WMAT did that on the public members wiki. It's not that because the wiki is public every information there is automatically seen by everyone. If something is really delicate then the circle of people dealing with it will (naturally) also be very small. Then a members wiki again will be too public and the small circle most likely consists of board members or other officials which have board wiki access... problem solved. Now we have the projects, we need really to have a workspace to keep the communication still live. I totally agree. I just argue that it is easier keeping communication alive and have strong participation by lowering the bars, not by raising them. /Manuel -- Regards Manuel Schneider Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Wikimedia CH - Association for the advancement of free knowledge www.wikimedia.ch ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] [PROPOSITION] Wiki only for members
Good idea, The members wiki has been kept as former website mirror to be sure have had a backup plan during the last fundraising. And it has been useful! :-D I think now we could move forward and reborn the members wiki as a working space. Sincerely Charles ___ Charles ANDRES, Membre du Comité Wikimedia CH - Association pour l'avancement des connaissances libres Skype: charles.andres.wmch IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch Le 20 janv. 2012 à 16:14, Emmanuel Engelhart a écrit : Hi We have now a beautiful public Web Site which has to provide all the necessary information for a broad audience. Our wiki which was in the past both for broad audience and for members is now at the address: http://members.wikimedia.ch Currently we can not use it to store any information about project which is a little sensitive, because everything is public. The consequence is that we have too few project information and coordination on it (often, a little bit confidentiality is needed). For this reason, I propose to make all pages of this wiki protected in readwrite for anonymous user and only members should have the permission to access it. If other people need access, they should ask. Regards Emmanuel ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] [PROPOSITION] Wiki only for members
On 22/01/2012 12:07, charles andrès wrote: Good idea, The members wiki has been kept as former website mirror to be sure have had a backup plan during the last fundraising. And it has been useful! :-D I think now we could move forward and reborn the members wiki as a working space. Great! I proposed to start with the old public wiki and just change the permissions. Do you think to an other approach? Emmanuel signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] [PROPOSITION] Wiki only for members
On 22.01.2012 12:10, Emmanuel Engelhart wrote: On 22/01/2012 12:07, charles andrès wrote: Good idea, The members wiki has been kept as former website mirror to be sure have had a backup plan during the last fundraising. And it has been useful! :-D I think now we could move forward and reborn the members wiki as a working space. Great! I proposed to start with the old public wiki and just change the permissions. Do you think to an other approach? Emmanuel We have only to take care that WMF and the public have access in more detailed data connected to the projects. The fundraising agreement imposes that the projects have to follow some requirements (for instance the metrics to evaluate them and the budget). For instance this page: http://members.wikimedia.ch/Projects must be public as is because it is the page used by WMF as reference to monitor the projects. Ilario ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] [PROPOSITION] Wiki only for members
Actually this is possible, but two notes: * I have yet never had a reason for anything within our projects to be confidential. Neither with WMCH, nor openZIM, nor WMAT. The only thing that always has to be confidential is human ressources, and that's part of board and thus will be dealt with in the board wiki which also exists and is closed. * Closing the members wiki results in a higher demand of reporting as we lock out the public from what we are actually doing. I was already disappointed by the frequency the members wiki / former website has been updated, by the much smaller group with access to the new website this got worse and by closing down the members wiki there is no more place left to participate in the current projects. /Manuel Le 20 janv. 2012 à 16:14, Emmanuel Engelhart a écrit : For this reason, I propose to make all pages of this wiki protected in readwrite for anonymous user and only members should have the permission to access it. If other people need access, they should ask. -- Regards Manuel Schneider Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Wikimedia CH - Association for the advancement of free knowledge www.wikimedia.ch ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] [PROPOSITION] Wiki only for members
On 22/01/2012 13:57, Manuel Schneider wrote: * I have yet never had a reason for anything within our projects to be confidential. Neither with WMCH, nor openZIM, nor WMAT. Everything what is or should neither be official or public: - members related information (tel, email, name, ...) if they want to share them with other members - opinions of members in discussion - report of projects which include private discussion with partners - names of people which are working for institutions we have as partner - Details of our projects which should not be public as long as the project is not official. In fact, everything interesting including personal opinions, names, information, discussions should not be public. * Closing the members wiki results in a higher demand of reporting as we lock out the public from what we are actually doing. I agree. The work of explaining for a broad audience what we do, or what we plan to do, our opinions, etc... Is a work we *have to do in any case*. This is IMO not something related to the topic, because having a wiki, with masses (or nothing...) of uncleaned information, is not what a broad audience is interested in. They need an annual report and news during the year. I was already disappointed by the frequency the members wiki / former website has been updated, by the much smaller group with access to the new website this got worse and by closing down the members wiki there is no more place left to participate in the current projects. Everyone engaged in WMCH (and on WMCH side) project should have access to this wiki - only a few exceptions should be necessary because those people are members. If not, we should ask ourself why they are not! For people who need feedbacks about such a potential move, they can ask members of WMFR what was the difference beforeafter the members wiki was put in private modus. Emmanuel signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] [PROPOSITION] Wiki only for members
On 22/01/2012 15:09, Ilario Valdelli wrote: On 22.01.2012 14:21, Emmanuel Engelhart wrote: Everyone engaged in WMCH (and on WMCH side) project should have access to this wiki - only a few exceptions should be necessary because those people are members. If not, we should ask ourself why they are not! For people who need feedbacks about such a potential move, they can ask members of WMFR what was the difference beforeafter the members wiki was put in private modus. Emmanuel Except some opinions, the private data and some financial data, everything may be public. As no profit organization, there are nothing that we have to keep secret. Sorry Ilario. Are you kidding? This is simply ridiculous. Why not making the WMCH Board wiki and ML publicly available then? The transparency in my opinion help to have more members and to invite persons to join in the decisions. No organisation at all works fine if everything about projects, internal discussions, members opinions are publicly available. A well working organisation needs accurate information, detailed reports, open discussions - all these things can not be always public. Consequently, if you do not have this confidentiality, you have none of them - this is almost the case for WMCH. Now, after so many years, this is more than the good time to ask ourself if this decision of 100% of transparency (except for the board?!) was the good one? Why we do not have exchanges except on the private ML/wiki? Why we do not recruit new people? Why we do exactly the contrary of other chapters? You may not be agree with me, but you have to admit that we have a problem there. I wanted to trigger again that problem. I did my job. I can not change that alone, so please move one - you are on the board. This is my last message in this thread. Emmanuel signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] [PROPOSITION] Wiki only for members
On 01/22/2012 03:09 PM, Ilario Valdelli wrote: Except some opinions, the private data and some financial data, everything may be public. Financial data should always be public, the only thing that should be secret are salaries - and they should be secret for members as well. This is a board-only thing and the board has a closed wiki already. Personal data such as names and addresses of members should also be confidential - including members. This information is - together with the accounting data - part of the CiviCRM system which is accessible for the board plus project managers. A closed members wiki is no help here either. As no profit organization, there are nothing that we have to keep secret. correct. The transparency in my opinion help to have more members and to invite persons to join in the decisions. correct. The Wikipedia philosophy is to have any contribution also from an IP. Well, we don't need to accept this for the association as well. Look at Wikimedia Austria. Almost everything is public in a members wiki which can only be edited by registered users (no IPs) but can be read by everyone. There are project pages for all the projects, all the planning, discussion etc. happens there in the public. I see no problem with this. There is only very little information that is not there: Internal board discussions and our accounting and contact database. As a replacement board resolutions are published in the members wiki and all financial reports are there as well. http://mitglieder.wikimedia.at/ I agree to transform the members.wikimedia.ch in a workspace but not to have a complete closing. Agree. Workspace for me means let it be accessible as it is right now, but restructure the information to make it more useable. /Manuel -- Regards Manuel Schneider Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Wikimedia CH - Association for the advancement of free knowledge www.wikimedia.ch ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] [PROPOSITION] Wiki only for members
On 01/22/2012 03:46 PM, Emmanuel Engelhart wrote: On 22/01/2012 15:09, Ilario Valdelli wrote: Sorry Ilario. Are you kidding? This is simply ridiculous. Why not making the WMCH Board wiki and ML publicly available then? That's the only ressort which should not be public. But the outcome of these (resolutions, spendings) have to be public, of course. No organisation at all works fine if everything about projects, internal discussions, members opinions are publicly available. A well working organisation needs accurate information, detailed reports, open discussions - all these things can not be always public. Consequently, if you do not have this confidentiality, you have none of them - this is almost the case for WMCH. This is proven wrong by Wikimedia Austria and all other projects I am part of - see openZIM, see WikiTV... More important for me seems to do anything. Right now we have not much to discuss about confidentiality as we have only little data to take care of. Everything else we did in the past has been public with no problem. I think we are discussing a rather theoretical problem here. I am open to discuss it again as soon somebody has a concrete problem. /Manuel -- Regards Manuel Schneider Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Wikimedia CH - Association for the advancement of free knowledge www.wikimedia.ch ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] [PROPOSITION] Wiki only for members
Something else came into my mind, speaking of empirical results of closed vs. open platforms: The Wikimedia CH members wiki, which has been our website for a while, actually started as a members wiki! For around two or three years we had a Wordpress website + the members wiki which was closed and only accessible for members. Guess what happened - nobody used it. It remained dormant until the board decided to give up the members wiki and use a wiki platform for the website at the same time. Then we moved the wiki to be the new website and rebuilt the content. Now with the new website the wiki became the members wiki again, but yet not closed and not rebuild. I am in favour a rebuild, I am not completely opposing a closure for members but made my statements based on my actual experience with this matter. WMDE has a closed members wiki since around a year. It is not used very much because it is an administrative overhead to get an account, get the account recognised as a member etc. But it is definitely not dead and is worth having. On the other hand WMDE never had - in the contrary to WMCH and WMAT - any member participation platform other than the mailinglist before. And, just as a sidenote: There is no financial data which is not already published anyway and definitely no contact information - this is just impossible. /Manuel -- Regards Manuel Schneider Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Wikimedia CH - Association for the advancement of free knowledge www.wikimedia.ch ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] [PROPOSITION] Wiki only for members
On 22.01.2012 16:07, Manuel Schneider wrote: Something else came into my mind, speaking of empirical results of closed vs. open platforms: The Wikimedia CH members wiki, which has been our website for a while, actually started as a members wiki! For around two or three years we had a Wordpress website + the members wiki which was closed and only accessible for members. Guess what happened - nobody used it. The problem at the start was the high number of channel of communications in comparison to the number of effective communication. It means that we had three mailing lists and three sites but no internal organization to manage and to update them. This is the problem to have something when there is no effective needs. Now the level of communications are becoming complex. The WM CH have to communicate with the world and with the press, with the members, with WMF, with other chapters/communities, with the owners of the projects. Two wikis are not sufficient. It means that the press release of SOPA, for example, needs to be created in one restricted area, discussed internally with other members and made it public. It means that one communication can be managed in three different level of communication and in three different websites. Now we have the projects, we need really to have a workspace to keep the communication still live. Ilario ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] [PROPOSITION] Wiki only for members
On 01/22/2012 04:42 PM, Ilario Valdelli wrote: The WM CH have to communicate with the world and with the press, with the members, with WMF, with other chapters/communities, with the owners of the projects. Two wikis are not sufficient. It's two wikis (board + members), website, Meta Wiki, CiviCRM... plus several mailinglists. I think that's more than enough. It means that the press release of SOPA, for example, needs to be created in one restricted area, discussed internally with other members and made it public. It means that one communication can be managed in three different level of communication and in three different websites. Well, WMAT did that on the public members wiki. It's not that because the wiki is public every information there is automatically seen by everyone. If something is really delicate then the circle of people dealing with it will (naturally) also be very small. Then a members wiki again will be too public and the small circle most likely consists of board members or other officials which have board wiki access... problem solved. Now we have the projects, we need really to have a workspace to keep the communication still live. I totally agree. I just argue that it is easier keeping communication alive and have strong participation by lowering the bars, not by raising them. /Manuel -- Regards Manuel Schneider Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Wikimedia CH - Association for the advancement of free knowledge www.wikimedia.ch ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] [PROPOSITION] Wiki only for members
Le 22 janv. 2012 à 16:52, Manuel Schneider a écrit : On 01/22/2012 04:42 PM, Ilario Valdelli wrote: The WM CH have to communicate with the world and with the press, with the members, with WMF, with other chapters/communities, with the owners of the projects. Two wikis are not sufficient. It's two wikis (board + members), website, Meta Wiki, CiviCRM... plus several mailinglists. I think that's more than enough. So true! we don't have any problem of communication support, we just have no communication! Each problem at a time, for the members wiki, could we restrict the access in edition to members , reading activate for everybody, and in case we identify that some pages need to be also restricted in reading, we play with user status to hide this one. To be clear: Members should be sysop by default on the wiki, confidential or sensitive pages should be put for sysop eyes only? is it reasonable? knowing that before that we need to rebuild the wiki and find people willing to use it! :-D cheers Charles ___ Charles ANDRES, Membre du Comité Wikimedia CH - Association pour l'avancement des connaissances libres Skype: charles.andres.wmch IRC://irc.freenode.net/wikimedia-ch smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Re: [Wikimediach-l] [PROPOSITION] Wiki only for members
Es ist doch immer wieder lustig, die Vereinsmitteilungen zu lesen, um zu wissen, wie es hinter den Kulissen der Wikipedia zu und her geht... Man könnte doch gleich auch die Wikipedia nur Mitgliedern zugänglich machen. Edi Emmanuel Engelhart wrote: ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l ___ http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website Wikimediach-l mailing list https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
