Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Google's Indic Wikipedia translation project closing down

[Gautam John]

http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2011/06/24/how-japan-helps-google-translate-india/?mod=WSJBlog

And then they don't even thank the communities that helped. *sigh*

Thank you.

Best,

Gautam

http://social.prathambooks.org/

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Google's Indic Wikipedia translation project closing down

[Bala Jeyaraman]

A follow up:

The alpha release has created another problem in ta wiki. People are
starting to use it for creating articles and they are mostly gibberish. We
have created a new speedy deletion criteria for tagging and deleting them.


On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 10:13 AM, Arjuna Rao Chavala <
arjunar...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I tried how translate works translating my English 
> blogto Telugu. Given that the software is 
> alpha, the number of untranlated
> words  were quite few (abbreviations or  words like  focussing, inputting,
> rapidy  mostly words with spelling errors).  Grammatical construction of
> sentences is weak. For people who are not comfortable in understanding
> English, the service may give atleast an idea of  the original text context.
>
> While I appreciate the efforts of Google in  introducing Google Translate
> support for english languages,  considering that Indian government and
> organisations were not able to offer such service for Telugu and support for
> other languages also not available for free access (Link for English
> ->other 
> languages),
> I wish that they  had engaged with Wikimedia community in a better way to
> make their  contributions  to Wikimedia met the expectations from the
> community.
>
> Thanks
> Arjun
>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Google's Indic Wikipedia translation project closing down

[Arjuna Rao Chavala]

Hi,

I tried how translate works translating my English
blogto Telugu. Given that the
software is alpha, the number of untranlated
words  were quite few (abbreviations or  words like  focussing, inputting,
rapidy  mostly words with spelling errors).  Grammatical construction of
sentences is weak. For people who are not comfortable in understanding
English, the service may give atleast an idea of  the original text context.

While I appreciate the efforts of Google in  introducing Google Translate
support for english languages,  considering that Indian government and
organisations were not able to offer such service for Telugu and support for
other languages also not available for free access (Link for English ->other
languages ),
I wish that they  had engaged with Wikimedia community in a better way to
make their  contributions  to Wikimedia met the expectations from the
community.

Thanks
Arjun
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Google's Indic Wikipedia translation project closing down

[Shiju Alex]

For Tamil wiki there was a control over the Google's project. I hope that
had helped to control the damage. But think about the wikis where Google
employees were having a free hand.


On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 9:09 AM, Bala Jeyaraman wrote:

> Great, now in ta wiki we are stuck with the task of correcting a 1000
> crappy large articles. No wonder they showed little interest in correcting
> or copy editing and always wanted to push for more new articles. They must
> have had an internal target of X words or so for gaining experience for the
> machines. Once that was done they have closed up shop.
>
> "You can expect translations for these new alpha languages to be less
> fluent and include many more untranslated words"
>
> If this is the officially admitted state of an alpha release, imagine the
> quality of the articles this project created using beta versions.
>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Google's Indic Wikipedia translation project closing down

[Bala Jeyaraman]

Great, now in ta wiki we are stuck with the task of correcting a 1000 crappy
large articles. No wonder they showed little interest in correcting or copy
editing and always wanted to push for more new articles. They must have had
an internal target of X words or so for gaining experience for the machines.
Once that was done they have closed up shop.

"You can expect translations for these new alpha languages to be less fluent
and include many more untranslated words"

If this is the officially admitted state of an alpha release, imagine the
quality of the articles this project created using beta versions.
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Google's Indic Wikipedia translation project closing down

[Shiju Alex]

In fact it affected the community growth also. Allowing this type paid
editing is one of the bad things happened in Indic wikis recently.




On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 11:52 PM, Gautam John wrote:

> On 21 June 2011 23:46, Srikanth Lakshmanan  wrote:
>
> > So they thought they had enough training for the machines with Wikipedia
> > translation feeding a good chunk of data to the machine in these 5
> > languages.
>
> No wonder they say "five new experimental alpha languages"!
>
> Thank you.
>
> Best,
>
> Gautam
> 
> http://social.prathambooks.org/
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Google's Indic Wikipedia translation project closing down

[Gautam John]

On 21 June 2011 23:46, Srikanth Lakshmanan  wrote:

> So they thought they had enough training for the machines with Wikipedia
> translation feeding a good chunk of data to the machine in these 5
> languages.

No wonder they say "five new experimental alpha languages"!

Thank you.

Best,

Gautam

http://social.prathambooks.org/

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Google's Indic Wikipedia translation project closing down

[Srikanth Lakshmanan]

On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 23:26, Gautam John  wrote:

> Just saw this:
> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/06/google-translate-welcomes-you-to-indic.html


So they thought they had enough training for the machines with Wikipedia
translation feeding a good chunk of data to the machine in these 5
languages. Unlike Hindi when it was launched, the quality of these(atleast I
can vouch for Tamil) is *really* bad, worse than Hindi.

 Google translate knows politics too!
Try these in translate.google.com
முதல்வர் ஜெயலலிதா
முதல்வர் கருணாநிதி


Regards
Srikanth.L
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Google's Indic Wikipedia translation project closing down

[Gautam John]

Just saw this: 
http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/06/google-translate-welcomes-you-to-indic.html

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Google's Indic Wikipedia translation project closing down

[Srikanth Ramakrishnan]

Ravi,
Perhaps this tool would be handy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keymanweb/Keymanweb


On 6 June 2011 13:11, Gautam John  wrote:

> On 6 June 2011 13:08, Ravishankar  wrote:
>
> > Without mutual benefit no entity would enter a partnership.
> > But I couldn't imagine lots of commercial cases like this where there
> will
> > be mutual benefit.
>
> Indeed. And that we, as Wikipedians, need to evaluate possible
> partnerships from what *we* would get from it and not only because it
> is something that is "free" to us?
>
> Thank you.
>
> Best,
>
> Gautam
> 
> http://social.prathambooks.org/
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Google's Indic Wikipedia translation project closing down

[Gautam John]

On 6 June 2011 13:08, Ravishankar  wrote:

> Without mutual benefit no entity would enter a partnership.
> But I couldn't imagine lots of commercial cases like this where there will
> be mutual benefit.

Indeed. And that we, as Wikipedians, need to evaluate possible
partnerships from what *we* would get from it and not only because it
is something that is "free" to us?

Thank you.

Best,

Gautam

http://social.prathambooks.org/

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Google's Indic Wikipedia translation project closing down

[Ravishankar]

Hi Gautam,

Sorry if I was not clear.

Without mutual benefit no entity would enter a partnership.

If a Wikipedia partners with a local museum, then it is win-win as  the
Wikipedia will get more content and the museum's collection is digitised.

But I couldn't imagine lots of commercial cases like this where there will
be mutual benefit.

Ravi


On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 12:55 PM, Gautam John wrote:

> Thank you, Ravi. The mutual benefit is something, as you have pointed
> out, is really important.
>
> Best,
>
> Gautam
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Google's Indic Wikipedia translation project closing down

[Gautam John]

Thank you, Ravi. The mutual benefit is something, as you have pointed
out, is really important.

Best,

Gautam

http://social.prathambooks.org/



On 6 June 2011 12:53, Ravishankar  wrote:
>
> Hi Gautam,
>
> I am not sure if this is related with them closing down other Indic related 
> projects.
>
> Two guesses:
>
> 1. They might have started these projects with a goal of collecting some data 
> and they might have met it.
>
> 2. They might have found the Indic market less profitable at the moment and 
> might have chosen to shut down some resources.
>
> Google's project can hardly be called a partnership. It started the program 
> on its own and the communities had only two choices: Block them or guide them 
> how to do it better.
>
> Tamil Wikipedia chose to work with them in the hope of improving this project 
> and tried to provide a pilot model for other Wikipedias.
>
> From my experience in this project, my personal opinion is that:
>
> Partnerships should be mutual, transparent, well conceived and always in the 
> best interest of Wikipedia.
>
> Any commercial interest in the content created will only lead to compromise 
> of some sort.
>
> For example, if a book publisher wants to write a series of articles in 
> Wikipedia and then publish it, this might seem like a good will gesture of 
> donating articles to Wikipedia. But, the articles may not adhere to 
> Wikipedia's MOS and may be written in a style for their target audience.
>
> Commercial entities can best support Wikimedia by "donating" resources like 
> tools, facilities and sponsorships to conduct events.
>
> Ravi

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Google's Indic Wikipedia translation project closing down

[Ravishankar]

Hi Gautam,

I am not sure if this is related with them closing down other Indic related
projects.

Two guesses:

1. They might have started these projects with a goal of collecting some
data and they might have met it.

2. They might have found the Indic market less profitable at the moment and
might have chosen to shut down some resources.

Google's project can hardly be called a partnership. It started the program
on its own and the communities had only two choices: Block them or guide
them how to do it better.

Tamil Wikipedia chose to work with them in the hope of improving this
project and tried to provide a pilot model for other Wikipedias.

>From my experience in this project, my personal opinion is that:

Partnerships should be mutual, transparent, well conceived and always in the
best interest of Wikipedia.

*Any commercial interest in the content created will only lead to compromise
of some sort. *

For example, if a book publisher wants to write a series of articles in
Wikipedia and then publish it, this might seem like a good will gesture of
donating articles to Wikipedia. But, the articles may not adhere to
Wikipedia's MOS and may be written in a style for their target audience.

Commercial entities can best support Wikimedia by "donating" resources like
tools, facilities and sponsorships to conduct events.

Ravi






On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 12:14 AM, Gautam John wrote:

> Thanks for sending this, Ravi. I am wondering how much this has to do
> with them also shutting down their translation and transliteration
> APIs as recently announced and how much this has to do with them
> having achieved what they set out to do - not as far as Wikipedia is
> concerned but their internal metrics for the project.
>
> A larger question I am trying to parse - what have we learned from it
> in terms of partnering with organizations that also have commercial
> goals?
>
> Thank you.
>
> Best,
>
> Gautam
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Google's Indic Wikipedia translation project closing down

[Gautam John]

Thanks for sending this, Ravi. I am wondering how much this has to do
with them also shutting down their translation and transliteration
APIs as recently announced and how much this has to do with them
having achieved what they set out to do - not as far as Wikipedia is
concerned but their internal metrics for the project.

A larger question I am trying to parse - what have we learned from it
in terms of partnering with organizations that also have commercial
goals?

Thank you.

Best,

Gautam

http://social.prathambooks.org/




On 5 June 2011 21:44, Ravishankar  wrote:
> In a recent mail to the google group regarding Google's Indic Wikipedia
> translation project, Dimple Batra from Google reported:
>
> "We are in the process of closing down the wikipedia indic language
> translation project.
> We had initiated this project to bootstrap the creation of indic content and
> encourage consumption in indic languages. Having accomplished the same over
> the past 2 years we would now like the community to continue contributing.
> Please feel free to reach out to us if you have other proposals on how we
> can create more local content in India"
>
> ***
>
> Please let us know how the different Indic Wikipedia communities involved in
> this project are going to handle this.
>
> As far as Tamil Wikipedia is concerned:
>
> 1000+ articles created using this project went through few rounds of
> corrections by both Wikipedians and the paid translators. About 50% of them
> were found to be of acceptable quality. We selected few translators who were
> doing a better job and a test case of 25 articles were assigned based on
> which further articles should be written. But, the collaboration between
> Tamil Wikipedia and Google lost its momentum after this stage.
>
> Frankly, Tamil Wikipedians were exhausted in this year long project with
> more than 20 Wikipedians contributing for this. The good will between Google
> - Translators - Wikipedians did not improve as the translators didn't show
> interest in improving their previous articles any further until new articles
> are assigned to them. (Which means continuous employment for them and profit
> for the companies involved). Later, we came to know that most of the
> translators involved in the project resigned from their respective companies
> and expected a stand still in this project.
>
> In this situation, the above reply from Google came for a query posted by
> Arjuna Rao Chavala regarding the project's status in Telugu Wikipedia.
>
> We haven't decided yet on the next course of action on the Google created
> articles. My expectation is that they will be treated as regular articles
> and the community will try to work on them. In case of very badly written
> articles, part of the article may be moved to talk page and moved back again
> after they are corrected. However, this will really be a time consuming
> exercise for sure.
>
> My personal opinion is that I am very much disappointed. Google's intention
> was good but execution left very much to desire. It didn't show interest to
> talk to the community before starting and before ending the project abruptly
> on its own.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ravi
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Google's Indic Wikipedia translation project closing down

[Srikanth Ramakrishnan]

Ravi,
What Google did can pretty much be summarized as a 'Half hearted attempt'.
However, I had posted last week, a link to Microsoft's API and
transliteration tools. Personally, I find it better than Google.
The only catch is that Microsoft requires you to link back to them.
--
Regards,
Srikanth

On 5 June 2011 21:44, Ravishankar  wrote:

> In a recent mail to the google group regarding Google's Indic Wikipedia
> translation project, Dimple Batra from Google reported:
>
> "We are in the process of closing down the wikipedia indic language
> translation project.
>
> We had initiated this project to bootstrap the creation of indic content
> and encourage consumption in indic languages. Having accomplished the same
> over the past 2 years we would now like the community to continue
> contributing.
>
> Please feel free to reach out to us if you have other proposals on how we
> can create more local content in India"
>
> ***
>
> Please let us know how the different Indic Wikipedia communities involved
> in this project are going to handle this.
>
> As far as Tamil Wikipedia is concerned:
>
> 1000+ articles created using this project went through few rounds of
> corrections by both Wikipedians and the paid translators. About 50% of them
> were found to be of acceptable quality. We selected few translators who were
> doing a better job and a test case of 25 articles were assigned based on
> which further articles should be written. But, the collaboration between
> Tamil Wikipedia and Google lost its momentum after this stage.
>
> Frankly, Tamil Wikipedians were exhausted in this year long project with
> more than 20 Wikipedians contributing for this. The good will between Google
> - Translators - Wikipedians did not improve as the translators didn't show
> interest in improving their previous articles any further until new articles
> are assigned to them. (Which means continuous employment for them and profit
> for the companies involved). Later, we came to know that most of the
> translators involved in the project resigned from their respective companies
> and expected a stand still in this project.
>
> In this situation, the above reply from Google came for a query posted by
> Arjuna Rao Chavala regarding the project's status in Telugu Wikipedia.
>
> We haven't decided yet on the next course of action on the Google created
> articles. My expectation is that they will be treated as regular articles
> and the community will try to work on them. In case of very badly written
> articles, part of the article may be moved to talk page and moved back again
> after they are corrected. However, this will really be a time consuming
> exercise for sure.
>
> My personal opinion is that I am very much disappointed. Google's intention
> was good but execution left very much to desire. It didn't show interest to
> talk to the community before starting and before ending the project abruptly
> on its own.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ravi
>
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[Wikimediaindia-l] Google's Indic Wikipedia translation project closing down

[Ravishankar]

In a recent mail to the google group regarding Google's Indic Wikipedia
translation project, Dimple Batra from Google reported:

"We are in the process of closing down the wikipedia indic language
translation project.

We had initiated this project to bootstrap the creation of indic content and
encourage consumption in indic languages. Having accomplished the same over
the past 2 years we would now like the community to continue contributing.

Please feel free to reach out to us if you have other proposals on how we
can create more local content in India"

***

Please let us know how the different Indic Wikipedia communities involved in
this project are going to handle this.

As far as Tamil Wikipedia is concerned:

1000+ articles created using this project went through few rounds of
corrections by both Wikipedians and the paid translators. About 50% of them
were found to be of acceptable quality. We selected few translators who were
doing a better job and a test case of 25 articles were assigned based on
which further articles should be written. But, the collaboration between
Tamil Wikipedia and Google lost its momentum after this stage.

Frankly, Tamil Wikipedians were exhausted in this year long project with
more than 20 Wikipedians contributing for this. The good will between Google
- Translators - Wikipedians did not improve as the translators didn't show
interest in improving their previous articles any further until new articles
are assigned to them. (Which means continuous employment for them and profit
for the companies involved). Later, we came to know that most of the
translators involved in the project resigned from their respective companies
and expected a stand still in this project.

In this situation, the above reply from Google came for a query posted by
Arjuna Rao Chavala regarding the project's status in Telugu Wikipedia.

We haven't decided yet on the next course of action on the Google created
articles. My expectation is that they will be treated as regular articles
and the community will try to work on them. In case of very badly written
articles, part of the article may be moved to talk page and moved back again
after they are corrected. However, this will really be a time consuming
exercise for sure.

My personal opinion is that I am very much disappointed. Google's intention
was good but execution left very much to desire. It didn't show interest to
talk to the community before starting and before ending the project abruptly
on its own.

Regards,

Ravi
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