[Wikitech-l] Deletion schema proposal: Bug 55398
In one of the earlier discussions about revising the deletion schema, Happy-Melon pointed out, Right now everyone who has ideas for *an* implementation isn't working on it because they don't know if it's *the* implementation we want. It seems to me that if one proposal is clearly superior, we may as well pick that one, so someone can get to work on it; but if the proposals are about equally good, then we may as well pick one at random, or whatever proposal is slightly better than the others, so someone can get to work on that one. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.technical/48109 The RFC over at MediaWiki.org hasn't received a lot of comment. Is there any objection to my implementing the new field option described at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Page_deletion ? I.e., I would add a new field, page.pg_deleted (analogous to revision.rv_deleted). Also, I would add revision.rv_logid to store the log_id of the deletion event. Upon restoring a page, only the revisions pertaining to the selected deletion event(s) would be restored. So, suppose you revision delete some revisions from a page for copyvio reasons. Those revisions are now updated as rv_deleted=[whatever value we want to use to signify the kind of access restrictions imposed by the deletion], and revision.rv_log_id=1, assuming that is the first log action ever performed on that wiki. Later, you delete the whole page (update rv_log_id=2 for the remainder of that page's revisions) for notability reasons. Then you decide you were mistaken about notability, but the copyvios would still be a problem. You undelete the page, selecting only that second deletion action. You only restore the revisions that have rv_logid=2, and leave the rv_logid=1 revisions deleted. This will render the archive table obsolete, so it can be deprecated/eliminated. I would like to code this for v1.23. https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=55398 Thanks. -- Nathan Larson https://mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Leucosticte ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Deletion schema
Hi, There's another discussion happening at enwiki at the moment about the stalled rollout of RevisionDelete for admins; which is backed up in the chain of bugs which boils down to our deletion mechanism is borked. Indeed. Basically, we have two deletion schemas in parallel at the moment, one of which is only half-complete, the other one sucks in many ways. I don't know if others share that view, but imho the long-term goal is to make RevisionDelete powerful enough to eventually replace the old deletion schema. See also: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=21279#c7 Reviewing the whole deletion mechanism was on the topic list for the last dev meetup, but AFAIK despite that event running for three times as long as it was expected to, it never got raised? I think this would be as good a time as any to do so. Do we have any clear idea or overall plan for page and revision deletion, the archive table, a page_deleted field, a deleted_page table, etc etc?? I don't know why you think the meetup was three times as long as expected. Just because some devs were stuck in Berlin doesn't mean the conference magically continued on these days. IIRC we didn't talk about RevisionDelete, because there were some other urgent issues (GSoC and general organization). I'd really love to talk about RevisionDelete at Wikimania and would encourage anyone submitting a proposal for a workshop on that. Regards, Church of emacs signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Deletion schema
church.of.emacs.ml church.of.emacs...@googlemail.com wrote in message news:4bf2632f.8000...@googlemail.com... Hi, There's another discussion happening at enwiki at the moment about the stalled rollout of RevisionDelete for admins; which is backed up in the chain of bugs which boils down to our deletion mechanism is borked. Indeed. Basically, we have two deletion schemas in parallel at the moment, one of which is only half-complete, the other one sucks in many ways. I don't know if others share that view, but imho the long-term goal is to make RevisionDelete powerful enough to eventually replace the old deletion schema. See also: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=21279#c7 Reviewing the whole deletion mechanism was on the topic list for the last dev meetup, but AFAIK despite that event running for three times as long as it was expected to, it never got raised? I think this would be as good a time as any to do so. Do we have any clear idea or overall plan for page and revision deletion, the archive table, a page_deleted field, a deleted_page table, etc etc?? I don't know why you think the meetup was three times as long as expected. Just because some devs were stuck in Berlin doesn't mean the conference magically continued on these days. That *was* a joke... :-P I think fundamentally this is an area where a solution which is super-efficient at *everything* is technically impossible, and we have various methods, implemented or proposed, which resolve some issues at the expense of others. It's mainly a question of working out what we definitely need to achieve, and what we can afford to be expensive/slow actions (for instance, one out of reading deleted revisions, and *restoring* deleted revisions, pretty much has to be expensive). Right now everyone who has ideas for *an* implementation isn't working on it because they don't know if it's *the* implementation we want. --HM ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Deletion schema
It is a generic problem, but it has particularly nasty interactions with RevisionDelete: fundamentally, it can become impossible to tell when, why or by whom a RevDel'd revision was deleted. The other manifestations of the lunacy of identifying deleted revisions by timestamp rather than revision id are not so serious, but these definitely are. Identifying deleted revisions by id rather than timestamp is a lot of work in itself; not least of which is writing and running a script to fill in all the null values for old deleted revisions on WMF wikis. There's no point in doing that if the 'grand plan' is to move away from having an archive table altogether. But equally this is an issue which does badly need work done. Hence the question, what *is* the grand plan? --HM -- From: Andrew Garrett and...@werdn.us Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 3:05 PM To: Happy-melon happy-me...@live.com; Wikimedia developers wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] Deletion schema On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 8:24 AM, Happy-melon happy-me...@live.com wrote: There's another discussion happening at enwiki at the moment about the stalled rollout of RevisionDelete for admins; which is backed up in the chain of bugs which boils down to our deletion mechanism is borked. Reviewing the whole deletion mechanism was on the topic list for the last dev meetup, but AFAIK despite that event running for three times as long as it was expected to, it never got raised? I think this would be as good a time as any to do so. Do we have any clear idea or overall plan for page and revision deletion, the archive table, a page_deleted field, a deleted_page table, etc etc?? I promised to activate single-revision deletion for admins months ago, and then again after the last software update. I finally got to it tonight. Church of Emacs points out this bug, but it looked as though it was a generic problem with our previous deletion system, and not an additional problem caused by single-revision deletion (indeed, it appears to be mitigated by the use of single-revision deletion instead of the old delete/undelete method). https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=21279 -- Andrew Garrett http://werdn.us/ ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Deletion schema
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 9:21 AM, Happy-melon happy-me...@live.com wrote: It is a generic problem, but it has particularly nasty interactions with RevisionDelete: fundamentally, it can become impossible to tell when, why or by whom a RevDel'd revision was deleted. The other manifestations of the lunacy of identifying deleted revisions by timestamp rather than revision id are not so serious, but these definitely are. Identifying deleted revisions by id rather than timestamp is a lot of work in itself; not least of which is writing and running a script to fill in all the null values for old deleted revisions on WMF wikis. There's no point in doing that if the 'grand plan' is to move away from having an archive table altogether. But equally this is an issue which does badly need work done. Hence the question, what *is* the grand plan? --HM Or we could just ignore[1] them. 1 - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28technical%29diff=101684983oldid=101671249 ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Deletion schema
OQ wrote: Or we could just ignore[1] them. 1 - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28technical%29diff=101684983oldid=101671249 I strongly disagree with brion and I hope that everyone realizes just deleting the archive table is not an option. While the archive table might have been originally designed as a temporary space to store deleted revisions, this differs greatly from the current use. Deleting 'deleted' edits would cause a major disruption on Wikimedia wikis. That being said, I appreciate Happy-melon's initiative to carefully plan a system before implementing single features without a general concept where this is going. IMHO we should discuss this at a Wikimania workshop. Anyone interested? In order to integrate those who can't make it to Wikimania, I suggest we create an onwiki schematic on the proposed deletion system. I'm still not sure whether RevisionDelete is aimed at replacing the old deletion schema completely, including the archive table. Could anyone comment on that please? Regards, Church of emacs Ps.: BTW, a question that came to my mind: Do we wish to retain our bijective Pagename -- Page relationship? (As opposed to a model, where a new page data set is created when a user creates a wiki page. Our current model has the flaw, that we can't differentiate between two completely different articles that have the same page title (e.g. if article A is deleted and someone else writes article B with the same page title – they are treated exactly the same, even though they are logically two different sets of revisions)) I'm not suggesting we drift away from our current approach, just wanted to note it has some flaws imho. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Deletion schema
We should start a page at mediawiki.org listing the Pros and Cons of each option. Church of Emacs: I'm still not sure whether RevisionDelete is aimed at replacing the old deletion schema completely, including the archive table. Could anyone comment on that please? It's the logical evolution IMHO. Ps.: BTW, a question that came to my mind: Do we wish to retain our bijective Pagename -- Page relationship? (As opposed to a model, where a new page data set is created when a user creates a wiki page. Our current model has the flaw, that we can't differentiate between two completely different articles that have the same page title (e.g. if article A is deleted and someone else writes article B with the same page title – they are treated exactly the same, even though they are logically two different sets of revisions)) I'm not suggesting we drift away from our current approach, just wanted to note it has some flaws imho. They may be the same (eg. the same article recreated, page merges...) or completely different. That could be 'solved' if the parent_revs were exposed somewhere. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Deletion schema
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 1:39 PM, Platonides platoni...@gmail.com wrote: We should start a page at mediawiki.org listing the Pros and Cons of each option. Put it as a subpage of [[RFC]]. -Chad ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Deletion schema
Chad wrote: On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 1:39 PM, Platonides wrote: We should start a page at mediawiki.org listing the Pros and Cons of each option. Put it as a subpage of [[RFC]]. -Chad I started it at http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Page_deletion Please, collaborate to fullfill it. *Then*, comment. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
[Wikitech-l] Deletion schema
There's another discussion happening at enwiki at the moment about the stalled rollout of RevisionDelete for admins; which is backed up in the chain of bugs which boils down to our deletion mechanism is borked. Reviewing the whole deletion mechanism was on the topic list for the last dev meetup, but AFAIK despite that event running for three times as long as it was expected to, it never got raised? I think this would be as good a time as any to do so. Do we have any clear idea or overall plan for page and revision deletion, the archive table, a page_deleted field, a deleted_page table, etc etc?? --HM ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
