Re: [Wikitech-l] Distinguishing disambiguation pages

[bawolff]

>>
>> Then we may want to get rid of tracking categories generated by code
>> and use pageprops instead?
>
> I have no opinion on that one.
>

Tracking categories are nice for certain errors. They more explicitly
show there is an error, because there is a category at the bottom of
the page. User's can edit the category pages to give helpful
information and even change the category name to localize it.

Otoh I suppose such a special page could would also have a system
message to provide useful introduction to what the property in
question means.

-bawolff

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Distinguishing disambiguation pages

[Brad Jorsch]

On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 4:53 AM, Liangent  wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 10:41 PM, Brad Jorsch  wrote:
>> On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 6:00 AM, Liangent  wrote:
>>> Is this enough?
>>>
>>> api.php?action=query&prop=pageprops&ppprop=disambiguation&titles=
>>
>> It would be nice to have a corresponding
>> api.php?action=query&list=pageswithprop&pwpprop=disambiguation. At a
>> glance, it looks like we could do it easily enough if someone adds an
>> index on page_props (pp_propname,pp_page).
>
> Then we may want to get rid of tracking categories generated by code
> and use pageprops instead?

I have no opinion on that one.

> and implement a generic Special:PagesByProperty in core, and use it
> like Special:PagesByProperty/disambig ,
> Special:PagesByProperty/brokenfilelink etc?

That would need the same page_props (pp_propname,pp_page) index, BTW.

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Distinguishing disambiguation pages

[Bináris]

2012/12/25 Ryan Kaldari 

> If you know any bot writers that are dealing with disambiguation pages, I
> would love to know more about what their needs are specifically. Perhaps an
> API could be added to the extension if it would be useful.

Forwarded to Pywikipedia-l.


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Distinguishing disambiguation pages

[Liangent]

On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 10:41 PM, Brad Jorsch  wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 6:00 AM, Liangent  wrote:
>> Is this enough?
>>
>> api.php?action=query&prop=pageprops&ppprop=disambiguation&titles=
>
> One thing that would be nice would be the ability to go the other way.
> Consider for example this similar query that tests if the specified
> pages are in a category:
>
> api.php?action=query&prop=categories&clcategories=Category:All_disambiguation_pages&titles=
>
> We can do the "opposite", getting a list of pages in the category,
> something like this:
>
> api.php?action=query&list=categorymembers&cmtitle=Category:All_disambiguation_pages
>
> It would be nice to have a corresponding
> api.php?action=query&list=pageswithprop&pwpprop=disambiguation. At a
> glance, it looks like we could do it easily enough if someone adds an
> index on page_props (pp_propname,pp_page).

Then we may want to get rid of tracking categories generated by code
and use pageprops instead?

and implement a generic Special:PagesByProperty in core, and use it
like Special:PagesByProperty/disambig ,
Special:PagesByProperty/brokenfilelink etc?

-Liangent

>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Distinguishing disambiguation pages

[David Gerard]

On 26 December 2012 14:57, John  wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 9:56 AM, Andrew Dunbar  wrote:

>> It would also be great if these pages were marked in the dump files too.

> That is why I was suggesting adding a field to the page table, instead
> of using page_props


It's not clear to me that this is a great idea. There's disambigs and
there's disambigs. Some have encyclopedic detail, for example. We're
not actually talking about something with a clear-cut binary
distinction. It's a matter of human judgement. As such, going per-wiki
on a local category basis is the closest I can see to a right answer.


- d.

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Distinguishing disambiguation pages

[John]

That is why I was suggesting adding a field to the page table, instead
of using page_props

On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 9:56 AM, Andrew Dunbar  wrote:
> It would also be great if these pages were marked in the dump files too.
>
> It should be exactly the same way as how redirect pages are marked.
>
>
> On 27 December 2012 01:41, Brad Jorsch  wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 6:00 AM, Liangent  wrote:
>> > Is this enough?
>> >
>> > api.php?action=query&prop=pageprops&ppprop=disambiguation&titles=
>>
>> One thing that would be nice would be the ability to go the other way.
>> Consider for example this similar query that tests if the specified
>> pages are in a category:
>>
>>
>> api.php?action=query&prop=categories&clcategories=Category:All_disambiguation_pages&titles=
>>
>> We can do the "opposite", getting a list of pages in the category,
>> something like this:
>>
>>
>> api.php?action=query&list=categorymembers&cmtitle=Category:All_disambiguation_pages
>>
>> It would be nice to have a corresponding
>> api.php?action=query&list=pageswithprop&pwpprop=disambiguation. At a
>> glance, it looks like we could do it easily enough if someone adds an
>> index on page_props (pp_propname,pp_page).
>>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Distinguishing disambiguation pages

[Andrew Dunbar]

It would also be great if these pages were marked in the dump files too.

It should be exactly the same way as how redirect pages are marked.


On 27 December 2012 01:41, Brad Jorsch  wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 6:00 AM, Liangent  wrote:
> > Is this enough?
> >
> > api.php?action=query&prop=pageprops&ppprop=disambiguation&titles=
>
> One thing that would be nice would be the ability to go the other way.
> Consider for example this similar query that tests if the specified
> pages are in a category:
>
>
> api.php?action=query&prop=categories&clcategories=Category:All_disambiguation_pages&titles=
>
> We can do the "opposite", getting a list of pages in the category,
> something like this:
>
>
> api.php?action=query&list=categorymembers&cmtitle=Category:All_disambiguation_pages
>
> It would be nice to have a corresponding
> api.php?action=query&list=pageswithprop&pwpprop=disambiguation. At a
> glance, it looks like we could do it easily enough if someone adds an
> index on page_props (pp_propname,pp_page).
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Distinguishing disambiguation pages

[Brad Jorsch]

On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 6:00 AM, Liangent  wrote:
> Is this enough?
>
> api.php?action=query&prop=pageprops&ppprop=disambiguation&titles=

One thing that would be nice would be the ability to go the other way.
Consider for example this similar query that tests if the specified
pages are in a category:

api.php?action=query&prop=categories&clcategories=Category:All_disambiguation_pages&titles=

We can do the "opposite", getting a list of pages in the category,
something like this:

api.php?action=query&list=categorymembers&cmtitle=Category:All_disambiguation_pages

It would be nice to have a corresponding
api.php?action=query&list=pageswithprop&pwpprop=disambiguation. At a
glance, it looks like we could do it easily enough if someone adds an
index on page_props (pp_propname,pp_page).

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Distinguishing disambiguation pages

[Liangent]

On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 6:46 PM, Ryan Kaldari  wrote:
> On 12/25/12 2:14 AM, Bináris wrote:
>>
>> Thank you for the answers! This will be great and simplifies life.
>>
>> 2012/12/25 Ryan Kaldari 
>>
>>> Yes, the magic word is completely localizable and aliasable.
>>
>> What is the way to do it?
>
>
> The magic word can be localized and aliased through the extension's
> Disambiguator.i18n.magic.php file (similar to how other magic words are
> localized).
>
>
>> How will bots recognize the localized versions?
>
>
> The magic word will be localized, but the page property in the database
> won't be. The page property will always be called 'disambiguation'. If you
> know any bot writers that are dealing with disambiguation pages, I would
> love to know more about what their needs are specifically. Perhaps an API
> could be added to the extension if it would be useful.

Is this enough?

api.php?action=query&prop=pageprops&ppprop=disambiguation&titles=

> Ryan Kaldari

-Liangent

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Distinguishing disambiguation pages

[Ryan Kaldari]

On 12/25/12 2:14 AM, Bináris wrote:

Thank you for the answers! This will be great and simplifies life.

2012/12/25 Ryan Kaldari 


Yes, the magic word is completely localizable and aliasable.

What is the way to do it?


The magic word can be localized and aliased through the extension's 
Disambiguator.i18n.magic.php file (similar to how other magic words are 
localized).



How will bots recognize the localized versions?


The magic word will be localized, but the page property in the database 
won't be. The page property will always be called 'disambiguation'. If 
you know any bot writers that are dealing with disambiguation pages, I 
would love to know more about what their needs are specifically. Perhaps 
an API could be added to the extension if it would be useful.


Ryan Kaldari

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Distinguishing disambiguation pages

[Bináris]

Thank you for the answers! This will be great and simplifies life.

2012/12/25 Ryan Kaldari 

> Yes, the magic word is completely localizable and aliasable.

What is the way to do it?
How will bots recognize the localized versions?


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Distinguishing disambiguation pages

[Ryan Kaldari]

On 12/25/12 12:55 AM, Bináris wrote:

I am not sure I understand you perfectly. Does "includes" mean that the
magic word has to be in disambiguation template? I hope so as these pages
are marked with templates and it wouldn't be a great idea to put the magis
in the pages themselves.


Yes, the magic word can just be added to the templates. No need to add 
it to each page.



Other: will this magic word have localised versions as the others? Or how
can we localize it? (Huwiki uses mostly localized magic words.)


Yes, the magic word is completely localizable and aliasable.


Is this change subject to the next version upgrade? When?


It depends on one MediaWiki core change, which is here:
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/40349/
That's the hook that allows the extension to create a new 
double-underscore magic word (since they are handled differently than 
regular magic words and parser functions).


As soon as that is code reviewed and merged in, it will just be waiting 
on the extension. I have no idea how long the process of getting the 
extension out there will take. Probably a month or two assuming it isn't 
shot down in flames.


Ryan Kaldari


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Distinguishing disambiguation pages

[Ryan Kaldari]

Well, it looks like my 2-line fix wasn't very popular. I abandoned that 
one and wrote an extension instead (plus a hook for core). This 
extension solves both bug 6754 and bug 35981. It will let us get rid of 
all the disambiguation code in core, and also stop relying on the 
MediaWiki:Disambiguationspage hack. Furthermore, it is backwards 
compatible and will allow the community to migrate to the new system 
whenever they want to. The old system will continue working in the 
meantime. In summary, the advantages of this extension over the old 
system are:
1. It will be trivial to query for which pages are disambiguation pages 
from the database - just test for the 'disambiguation' page property
2. No longer any need to keep track of all of the different 
disambiguation templates on all the wikis -- just add __DISAMBIG__ to 
them and you're done
3. The special page output is identical, but requires fewer queries and 
is more efficient

4. All the code is in an extension rather than in core (per bug 35981)

I know you're all dying to +2 this new extension (or perhaps tell me why 
it's a horrible idea), but unfortunately I don't have rights to create 
new projects on gerritt, and strangely the IRC channels are a ghosttown 
this evening ;) Perhaps after you've all recovered from your eggnog 
hangovers someone could great a new project for me on gerrit:
ssh -p 29418 gerrit.wikimedia.org gerrit create-project 
--owner=editor-engagement --parent=mediawiki/extensions 
--description='"Repository for the Disambiguator MediaWiki extension"' 
mediawiki/extensions/Disambiguator


Merry Festivus!
Ryan Kaldari


On 12/24/12 5:10 PM, Ryan Kaldari wrote:

I implemented a fix for bug 6754 here:
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/40343/

It's a simple 2 line change to core that adds a 'disambiguation' page 
property to any page that includes '__DISAMBIG__'. I was originally 
considering implementing this as an extension, but it seems like a 
feature that would be generally useful to lots of wikis and is a much 
lighter-weight solution than a full-blown extension.


The reason I used a doubleunderscore magic word is because they don't 
have to output anything and they automatically set a page property. In 
other words, they were invented for exactly this sort of purpose.


Ryan Kaldari


On 12/24/12 1:48 PM, bawolff wrote:

You could always have a magic word that disables the features, and let
the users put it in the relevant templates. Then the users could
disable it on all the pages they feel it would be inappropriate for.

--bawolff


On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 2:34 PM, Bináris  wrote:

Perhaps this helps something if you are familiar with javascript:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Gadget-bkl-check.js

We in huwiki use an adopted version of this script to display links to
disambpages with a different colour.

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Distinguishing disambiguation pages

[Bináris]

I am not sure I understand you perfectly. Does "includes" mean that the
magic word has to be in disambiguation template? I hope so as these pages
are marked with templates and it wouldn't be a great idea to put the magis
in the pages themselves.

Other: will this magic word have localised versions as the others? Or how
can we localize it? (Huwiki uses mostly localized magic words.)

Is this change subject to the next version upgrade? When?

2012/12/25 Ryan Kaldari 

> I implemented a fix for bug 6754 here:
> https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/**r/#/c/40343/
>
> It's a simple 2 line change to core that adds a 'disambiguation' page
> property to any page that includes '__DISAMBIG__'. I was originally
> considering implementing this as an extension, but it seems like a feature
> that would be generally useful to lots of wikis and is a much
> lighter-weight solution than a full-blown extension.
>
> The reason I used a doubleunderscore magic word is because they don't have
> to output anything and they automatically set a page property. In other
> words, they were invented for exactly this sort of purpose.
>
> Ryan Kaldari
>
>
>
> On 12/24/12 1:48 PM, bawolff wrote:
>
>> You could always have a magic word that disables the features, and let
>> the users put it in the relevant templates. Then the users could
>> disable it on all the pages they feel it would be inappropriate for.
>>
>> --bawolff
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 2:34 PM, Bináris  wrote:
>>
>>> Perhaps this helps something if you are familiar with javascript:
>>>
>>> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/**MediaWiki:Gadget-bkl-check.js
>>>
>>> We in huwiki use an adopted version of this script to display links to
>>> disambpages with a different colour.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Bináris
>>> __**_
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>>> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>>
>> __**_
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>>
>
> __**_
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Distinguishing disambiguation pages

[Ryan Kaldari]

I implemented a fix for bug 6754 here:
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/40343/

It's a simple 2 line change to core that adds a 'disambiguation' page 
property to any page that includes '__DISAMBIG__'. I was originally 
considering implementing this as an extension, but it seems like a 
feature that would be generally useful to lots of wikis and is a much 
lighter-weight solution than a full-blown extension.


The reason I used a doubleunderscore magic word is because they don't 
have to output anything and they automatically set a page property. In 
other words, they were invented for exactly this sort of purpose.


Ryan Kaldari


On 12/24/12 1:48 PM, bawolff wrote:

You could always have a magic word that disables the features, and let
the users put it in the relevant templates. Then the users could
disable it on all the pages they feel it would be inappropriate for.

--bawolff


On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 2:34 PM, Bináris  wrote:

Perhaps this helps something if you are familiar with javascript:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Gadget-bkl-check.js

We in huwiki use an adopted version of this script to display links to
disambpages with a different colour.

--
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Distinguishing disambiguation pages

[bawolff]

You could always have a magic word that disables the features, and let
the users put it in the relevant templates. Then the users could
disable it on all the pages they feel it would be inappropriate for.

--bawolff


On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 2:34 PM, Bináris  wrote:
> Perhaps this helps something if you are familiar with javascript:
>
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Gadget-bkl-check.js
>
> We in huwiki use an adopted version of this script to display links to
> disambpages with a different colour.
>
> --
> Bináris
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Distinguishing disambiguation pages

[Bináris]

Perhaps this helps something if you are familiar with javascript:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Gadget-bkl-check.js

We in huwiki use an adopted version of this script to display links to
disambpages with a different colour.

-- 
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Distinguishing disambiguation pages

[Jon Robson]

I am actually trying to do this in javascript in the lightest way possible.

There is no way that I can to get from outputted html to  the Template
it came from in Javascript.

Ideally I'd like to see something like class="template"
data-template="TemplateName" on all outputted templates to solve this
problem.

See https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/40314/ for background.

On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 2:33 PM, Yuvi Panda  wrote:
> Check the MediaWiki:Disambiguationspage language message - it exists for
> all languages. It lists all the templates that mark Disambig pages.
>
> (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Disambiguationspage for the french
> wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Disambiguationspage for
> english). I'm sure there are easy ways to check if a page is Disambig in
> PHP - not sure about JS.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Distinguishing disambiguation pages

[Yuvi Panda]

Check the MediaWiki:Disambiguationspage language message - it exists for
all languages. It lists all the templates that mark Disambig pages.

(https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Disambiguationspage for the french
wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Disambiguationspage for
english). I'm sure there are easy ways to check if a page is Disambig in
PHP - not sure about JS.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Distinguishing disambiguation pages

[Jon Robson]

Ok I explored this however this solution is not perfect as it requires
you know the name of the disambiguation category for a given language.
I want this code to run on fr.wiki, en.wiki and all other wikis

Any other ideas?

On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Jon Robson  wrote:
> I hadn't thought of using categories but that may indeed work for en.wiki :)
> thanks!
>
> On 24 Dec 2012 11:43, "John"  wrote:
>>
>> see https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43210
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 5:12 AM, Matma Rex  wrote:
>> > On Mon, 24 Dec 2012 11:00:36 +0100, Jon Robson 
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Last week I was working on a feature that I didn't want to surface on
>> >> a disambiguation page. I was surprised to find there was no way I
>> >> could distinguish between a normal article and a disambiguation page.
>> >> The disambiguation pages have no clearly marked templates I can use
>> >> and they are in the same namespace as normal articles.
>> >
>> >
>> > What about [[MediaWiki:Disambiguationspage]]?
>> >
>> > --
>> > Matma Rex
>> >
>> >
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Distinguishing disambiguation pages

[Jon Robson]

I hadn't thought of using categories but that may indeed work for en.wiki
:) thanks!
On 24 Dec 2012 11:43, "John"  wrote:

> see https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43210
>
> On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 5:12 AM, Matma Rex  wrote:
> > On Mon, 24 Dec 2012 11:00:36 +0100, Jon Robson 
> wrote:
> >
> >> Last week I was working on a feature that I didn't want to surface on
> >> a disambiguation page. I was surprised to find there was no way I
> >> could distinguish between a normal article and a disambiguation page.
> >> The disambiguation pages have no clearly marked templates I can use
> >> and they are in the same namespace as normal articles.
> >
> >
> > What about [[MediaWiki:Disambiguationspage]]?
> >
> > --
> > Matma Rex
> >
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Distinguishing disambiguation pages

[David Gerard]

On 24 December 2012 10:00, Jon Robson  wrote:

> Last week I was working on a feature that I didn't want to surface on
> a disambiguation page. I was surprised to find there was no way I
> could distinguish between a normal article and a disambiguation page.
> The disambiguation pages have no clearly marked templates I can use
> and they are in the same namespace as normal articles.


On en:wp, don't all (or most) dab pages have a template that puts them
in [[Category:All disambiguation pages]] ?


-d.

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Distinguishing disambiguation pages

[John]

see https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43210

On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 5:12 AM, Matma Rex  wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Dec 2012 11:00:36 +0100, Jon Robson  wrote:
>
>> Last week I was working on a feature that I didn't want to surface on
>> a disambiguation page. I was surprised to find there was no way I
>> could distinguish between a normal article and a disambiguation page.
>> The disambiguation pages have no clearly marked templates I can use
>> and they are in the same namespace as normal articles.
>
>
> What about [[MediaWiki:Disambiguationspage]]?
>
> --
> Matma Rex
>
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Distinguishing disambiguation pages

[Matma Rex]

On Mon, 24 Dec 2012 11:00:36 +0100, Jon Robson  wrote:


Last week I was working on a feature that I didn't want to surface on
a disambiguation page. I was surprised to find there was no way I
could distinguish between a normal article and a disambiguation page.
The disambiguation pages have no clearly marked templates I can use
and they are in the same namespace as normal articles.


What about [[MediaWiki:Disambiguationspage]]?

--
Matma Rex

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[Wikitech-l] Distinguishing disambiguation pages

[Jon Robson]

Last week I was working on a feature that I didn't want to surface on
a disambiguation page. I was surprised to find there was no way I
could distinguish between a normal article and a disambiguation page.
The disambiguation pages have no clearly marked templates I can use
and they are in the same namespace as normal articles.

Does anyone have a suggestion for how I might do this?

Jon

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