Re: [Wikitech-l] stop changing the whitespace in RELEASE-NOTES please
AG == Aryeh Gregor simetrical+wikil...@gmail.com writes: AG I think we should encourage people to run trunk in production *if*... All I know is doing svn update php update.php is a lot easier than any other way of updating. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] stop changing the whitespace in RELEASE-NOTES please
All I know is doing svn update php update.php is a lot easier than any other way of updating. You can do that with the tagged releases too. You don't have to run trunk for that. - Ryan ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] stop changing the whitespace in RELEASE-NOTES please
On 02/16/2011 04:48 PM, Ryan Lane wrote: K Who cares about wether or not a bit of whitespace changed ? My argument exactly. Every couple weeks I do $ svn diff -r BASE:HEAD RELEASE-NOTES and if all looks safe, I then do $ svn update You aren't running trunk in production, right? Right? And what's wrong with that? One of the nice things about the MediaWiki development process is that our trunk generally *is* usable. Sure, every one in a while someone fails to test their code properly before committing and breaks something, but generally you can just report the regression on #mediawiki and it'll get fixed or reverted promptly. Anyway, we really should encourage more people to run trunk. It's the only efficient way to catch bugs before we put out a tarball. -- Ilmari Karonen ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] stop changing the whitespace in RELEASE-NOTES please
Hoi, One of the reasons why trunk is of such high quality is because it is used on translatewiki.net. Quite regularly you will find one of its developers, Raymond Nikerabbit and Siebrand to name the most obvious ones reverting code. For translatewiki.net there is a compelling reason; we localise the messages in trunk and, they are committed back to trunk. This is why the LocalisationUpdate extension is doing its thing while the work on the 1.17 release has not even finished. Thanks, GerardM On 20 February 2011 16:30, Ilmari Karonen nos...@vyznev.net wrote: On 02/16/2011 04:48 PM, Ryan Lane wrote: K Who cares about wether or not a bit of whitespace changed ? My argument exactly. Every couple weeks I do $ svn diff -r BASE:HEAD RELEASE-NOTES and if all looks safe, I then do $ svn update You aren't running trunk in production, right? Right? And what's wrong with that? One of the nice things about the MediaWiki development process is that our trunk generally *is* usable. Sure, every one in a while someone fails to test their code properly before committing and breaks something, but generally you can just report the regression on #mediawiki and it'll get fixed or reverted promptly. Anyway, we really should encourage more people to run trunk. It's the only efficient way to catch bugs before we put out a tarball. -- Ilmari Karonen ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] stop changing the whitespace in RELEASE-NOTES please
You aren't running trunk in production, right? Right? And what's wrong with that? One of the nice things about the MediaWiki development process is that our trunk generally *is* usable. Sure, every one in a while someone fails to test their code properly before committing and breaks something, but generally you can just report the regression on #mediawiki and it'll get fixed or reverted promptly. Anyway, we really should encourage more people to run trunk. It's the only efficient way to catch bugs before we put out a tarball. I don't think we should encourage people to run trunk in production. We should encourage people to run release candidates in production, and possibly betas for those that know the software *really* well. We should likely encourage people to run trunk on their live testing environments, though. Occasionally security issues pop up in trunk that get caught in code review. People who run trunk are much more likely to have security problems, so on a production site, it's a problem. Similarly, it's possible that commits may come in that can cause data loss, which will later get caught in code review. Our trunk usually stays stable enough that developers can have a usable working environment, but I don't think it's stable enough to run on any site where you care about security or your data. - Ryan Lane ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] stop changing the whitespace in RELEASE-NOTES please
On 15 February 2011 22:43, K. Peachey p858sn...@yahoo.com.au wrote: Release Notes will be corrected and formatted to make it appropriate for release, nothing is going to change it. The standard is for 80 (or is it 72) characters wide and it will be corrected if theres errors. This is just something that will always happen. -Peachey Why are we imposing such an outdated rule? CLIs and text editors got the ability to automatically wrap text several decades ago. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] stop changing the whitespace in RELEASE-NOTES please
On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: On 15 February 2011 22:43, K. Peachey p858sn...@yahoo.com.au wrote: Release Notes will be corrected and formatted to make it appropriate for release, nothing is going to change it. The standard is for 80 (or is it 72) characters wide and it will be corrected if theres errors. This is just something that will always happen. -Peachey Why are we imposing such an outdated rule? CLIs and text editors got the ability to automatically wrap text several decades ago. Can we please stop this thread already? Starting a thread about whitespace was stupid, and continuing to discuss it is equally stupid. -Chad ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] stop changing the whitespace in RELEASE-NOTES please
On 20 February 2011 19:06, Chad innocentkil...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: On 15 February 2011 22:43, K. Peachey p858sn...@yahoo.com.au wrote: Release Notes will be corrected and formatted to make it appropriate for release, nothing is going to change it. The standard is for 80 (or is it 72) characters wide and it will be corrected if theres errors. This is just something that will always happen. -Peachey Why are we imposing such an outdated rule? CLIs and text editors got the ability to automatically wrap text several decades ago. Can we please stop this thread already? Starting a thread about whitespace was stupid, and continuing to discuss it is equally stupid. It seems to me that making commits to change whitespace that, from what I can tell, benefits no one (the fact that you didn't simply answer my question suggests you don't know any benefit either) and harms at least one person is the stupid thing. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] stop changing the whitespace in RELEASE-NOTES please
On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 2:24 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: Can we please stop this thread already? Starting a thread about whitespace was stupid, and continuing to discuss it is equally stupid. It seems to me that making commits to change whitespace that, from what I can tell, benefits no one (the fact that you didn't simply answer my question suggests you don't know any benefit either) and harms at least one person is the stupid thing. I happen to like 80 characters per line, so I'm benefited. To answer your original question: it's because we've done it this way forever, and there's not really any reason to change. -Chad ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] stop changing the whitespace in RELEASE-NOTES please
Ryan Lane wrote: I don't think we should encourage people to run trunk in production. We should encourage people to run release candidates in production, and possibly betas for those that know the software *really* well. We should likely encourage people to run trunk on their live testing environments, though. Occasionally security issues pop up in trunk that get caught in code review. People who run trunk are much more likely to have security problems, so on a production site, it's a problem. Similarly, it's possible that commits may come in that can cause data loss, which will later get caught in code review. Our trunk usually stays stable enough that developers can have a usable working environment, but I don't think it's stable enough to run on any site where you care about security or your data. - Ryan Lane It is the aim of the MediaWiki community to have an always-working trunk. It /should/ be possible to run a small wiki from trunk without much more than verifying before deployment that the tests passes and a few look out for fixmes. We should add tests for any -serious- issue fixed. They should also be able to cover the whole site (eg. add a test for Special:Cotnributions stub threshold [1]). Obviously, running trunk needs requires to have watch for possible errors and has some expectation of possible rendering problems (eg. the templates and tables stuff) or some corner case leading to a blank page. I was going to say something like it is very very strange to have commits leading to data loss but we too had amazing failures, with the tests added backdoors or overwriting the wiki. :( 1- This should be possible with Selenium. How does that effort go? ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] stop changing the whitespace in RELEASE-NOTES please
- Original Message - From: Platonides platoni...@gmail.com Ryan Lane wrote: I don't think we should encourage people to run trunk in production. We should encourage people to run release candidates in production, and possibly betas for those that know the software *really* well. We should likely encourage people to run trunk on their live testing environments, though. Occasionally security issues pop up in trunk that get caught in code review. People who run trunk are much more likely to have security problems, so on a production site, it's a problem. Similarly, it's possible that commits may come in that can cause data loss, which will later get caught in code review. It is the aim of the MediaWiki community to have an always-working trunk. It /should/ be possible to run a small wiki from trunk without much more than verifying before deployment that the tests passes and a few look out for fixmes. should be possible != is a good idea. Just sayin' Cheers, -- jra ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] stop changing the whitespace in RELEASE-NOTES please
Jay Ashworth wrote: should be possible != is a good idea. Just sayin' Cheers, -- jra Specially when we are not there yet ;) ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] stop changing the whitespace in RELEASE-NOTES please
Original Message - From: Platonides platoni...@gmail.com Jay Ashworth wrote: should be possible != is a good idea. Just sayin' Specially when we are not there yet ;) Best time to take policy decisions with large potential impact, no? :-) Cheers, -- jra ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] stop changing the whitespace in RELEASE-NOTES please
On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 12:42 PM, Ryan Lane rlan...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think we should encourage people to run trunk in production. I think we should encourage people to run trunk in production *if* they're planning on keeping up with it, will report or fix problems, and are aware that critical bugs might crop up and that there's no automated downgrade path once they make schema changes. Which is to say, we should discourage it for almost everyone, yes, but not everyone. trunk should be stable enough that it's *possible* to run in production, and we should encourage people to do so if they know what they're doing and are willing to accept the risks. People who run trunk in production can get all the newest features sooner, and they help us by providing feedback faster. It's for exactly this reason that trunk needs to be runnable at all times, as much as possible. Occasionally security issues pop up in trunk that get caught in code review. People who run trunk are much more likely to have security problems, so on a production site, it's a problem. Similarly, it's possible that commits may come in that can cause data loss, which will later get caught in code review. Both of these are possible, but not common enough in practice to be a big reason not to use MediaWiki trunk. Much more likely is random stuff not working properly because of a bug, but that's not going to cause lasting damage. Of course, if your site is important enough that occasional downtime or breakage is a problem, then you should certainly be more cautious, but most production wikis aren't actually very important. Our trunk usually stays stable enough that developers can have a usable working environment, but I don't think it's stable enough to run on any site where you care about security or your data. More than a few sites do actually run it under those conditions, so I don't think this is true at all. The plan is that Wikimedia should go back to doing something close to that, in fact, although of course with a formal review process of some sort. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] stop changing the whitespace in RELEASE-NOTES please
On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 11:56 AM, jida...@jidanni.org wrote: OK you little snots, I figured out what to do: use wdiff. Please remember to assume good faith and act civil to all people on this mailing list. -Peachey ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] stop changing the whitespace in RELEASE-NOTES please
C == Chad innocentkil...@gmail.com writes: C On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 10:42 PM, Ashar Voultoiz hashar+...@free.fr wrote: We do want to maintains this file at 80 characters line width, we could even enforce this in a pre-commit hook. C Or people could just properly wrap their lines. There's no C need for a hook. And what if they don't? ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] stop changing the whitespace in RELEASE-NOTES please
On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 4:21 PM, jida...@jidanni.org wrote: C == Chad innocentkil...@gmail.com writes: C On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 10:42 PM, Ashar Voultoiz hashar+...@free.fr wrote: We do want to maintains this file at 80 characters line width, we could even enforce this in a pre-commit hook. C Or people could just properly wrap their lines. There's no C need for a hook. And what if they don't? Then it should be fixed. Better in a batch commit than in a dozen separate ones. I don't see what the problem is here. -Chad ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] stop changing the whitespace in RELEASE-NOTES please
C == Chad innocentkil...@gmail.com writes: C Then it should be fixed. Better in a batch commit than C in a dozen separate ones. I don't see what the problem C is here. Please ensure that no diff will contain boring formatting changes. That means they must be properly formatted when they enter the file, or never. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
