Re: [Wikitech-l] tran-subst-antiation
Aryeh Gregor wrote:
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4484
That should do what you want.
Yes, this might be the equivalent of {{substonlysubst:/substonly.
That RFE has been around for years, and I was aware of it. The problem is,
interactions between two different kinds of markup parsing ( and {{}})
are often unpredictable, and have changed.
In the beginning, {{subst:# didn't work. It does now?
Having thought about such issues on more than one occasion, I'm proposing
clean markup that's easier and predictably parsable, and fits well with
current practices and syntax:
{{# function (existing)
{{## substitute-only subst:, otherwise is transclude {{
{{### substitute-only subst: for function, otherwise is {{#
Obviously, a lot easier to document and for editors to type!
And I've given it a cute neologism.
This is also worth considering:
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5453
If {{includeonlysubst:/includeonlyfoo}} worked as {{foo}} on
transclusion and {{subst:foo}} on substitution, that would also
accomplish what you want (eliminating the need for the subst=subst:).
But it doesn't (or didn't) and it's already used as a hack, for example:
{{#ifeq:{{NAMESPACE}}|{{includeonlysubst:/includeonlyNAMESPACE}}
|
| {{error:not substituted|cfd}}
}}
To be honest, I'm not sure how that even works, but it does
Obviously, nosubst would handle that more elegantly.
Should substonly and nosubst become standard, we could use them.
NB:I'd prefer substituteonly and nosubstitute, spelled out like include.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] tran-subst-antiation
On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 12:18 PM, William Allen Simpson
william.allen.simp...@gmail.com wrote:
Having thought about such issues on more than one occasion, I'm proposing
clean markup that's easier and predictably parsable, and fits well with
current practices and syntax:
{{# function (existing)
{{## substitute-only subst:, otherwise is transclude {{
{{### substitute-only subst: for function, otherwise is {{#
Again, personally I don't like magic symbols. Distinctive keywords
are much better for grepping/Googling/etc.
NB:I'd prefer substituteonly and nosubstitute, spelled out like include.
Since the existing keyword is subst: and not substitute:, I think
nosubst would be better.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] tran-subst-antiation
William Allen Simpson wrote:
Aryeh Gregor wrote:
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4484
That should do what you want.
Yes, this might be the equivalent of {{substonlysubst:/substonly.
...
Should substonly and nosubst become standard, we could use them.
NB:I'd prefer substituteonly and nosubstitute, spelled out like
include.
And looking back at that RFE, which had a fairly simple patch, Brion
decided strongly inclined to WONTFIX this.
So, what do we have to do to change his mind?
And, who would re-code the patch for the significantly revised parser?
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Re: [Wikitech-l] tran-subst-antiation
On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 12:53 PM, William Allen Simpson william.allen.simp...@gmail.com wrote: And looking back at that RFE, which had a fairly simple patch, Brion decided strongly inclined to WONTFIX this. So, what do we have to do to change his mind? Well, I already tried and he never responded, so maybe he already has. And, who would re-code the patch for the significantly revised parser? Ah, now that's a good question. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] tran-subst-antiation
Aryeh Gregor wrote:
Again, personally I don't like magic symbols. Distinctive keywords
are much better for grepping/Googling/etc.
That thinking would take us back to b, bold, etc. But I'll often take
rough consensus and running code over purity At least sometime in the
past there was some running code.
NB:I'd prefer substituteonly and nosubstitute, spelled out like include.
Since the existing keyword is subst: and not substitute:, I think
nosubst would be better.
Yeah, I'm not too happy that keywords were sometimes chosen because they
match the name of a function provided by the underlying software.
How about allowing synonyms, {{substitute: = {{subst: = {{::?
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[Wikitech-l] tran-subst-antiation
I don't edit as much as I did in years past, and my memory is obviously
feeble, as I find that I'm often making mistakes with subst'ing.
Worse, the explosion of parser functions has made the templates incredibly
complex. Subst'ing is increasingly less user friendly.
It's hard to document (subst doesn't seem to translate well or mean
anything to many folks), harder to remember, and hardest to type:
{{subst:TEMPLATE|P1|P2|subst=subst:}}
I'm often forgetting that final parameter, and conscientiously have to edit
again. Others don't bother subst'ing at all!
Is there a solution proposed anywhere already?
===
If not, here's my rough idea:
Leading {{:: -- easy to type (already holding the shift key) -- same as
{{subst: -- only happens in edit parsing, no change to database.
Leading {{## -- easy to type (already holding the shift key) -- obviously
must be different than {{:: -- used inside templates, tells the edit
parsing to subst: only subst'ing, otherwise ignored and treated as
concatenation. Same as C pre-processing operator.
Are these already in use?
Would be a heck of a lot easier to document
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Re: [Wikitech-l] tran-subst-antiation
On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 2:16 PM, William Allen Simpson
william.allen.simp...@gmail.com wrote:
It's hard to document (subst doesn't seem to translate well or mean
anything to many folks), harder to remember, and hardest to type:
{{subst:TEMPLATE|P1|P2|subst=subst:}}
I'm often forgetting that final parameter, and conscientiously have to edit
again. Others don't bother subst'ing at all!
Is there a solution proposed anywhere already?
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2777
It seems like this exists in an extension. I don't know whether the
extension is good enough to enable on Wikimedia and/or just add to
core; I haven't looked at it.
If not, here's my rough idea:
Leading {{:: -- easy to type (already holding the shift key) -- same as
{{subst: -- only happens in edit parsing, no change to database.
Leading {{## -- easy to type (already holding the shift key) -- obviously
must be different than {{:: -- used inside templates, tells the edit
parsing to subst: only subst'ing, otherwise ignored and treated as
concatenation. Same as C pre-processing operator.
I think an actual keyword like substall is better. It's possible to
Google the term to find documentation.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] tran-subst-antiation
2009/4/19 William Allen Simpson william.allen.simp...@gmail.com:
{{subst:TEMPLATE|P1|P2|subst=subst:}}
I've never seen that syntax before, what does the last bit do?
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Re: [Wikitech-l] tran-subst-antiation
Thomas Dalton wrote:
2009/4/19 William Allen Simpson william.allen.simp...@gmail.com:
{{subst:TEMPLATE|P1|P2|subst=subst:}}
I've never seen that syntax before, what does the last bit do?
They add a named parameter {{{subst|}}} (defaults null) at strategic
places. You can add it after any positional parameters. The subst:
substitutes during transclusion.
Look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Uw-vandalism1 and its
siblings for simple examples.
The problem with {{substall: is that it substitutes everything, and
{{subst: doesn't substitute enough.
I'm proposing the template designer have more control, using {{## only
at similar strategic places. This is needed for templates that make
tables inside templates, and such.
As I mentioned, the use of parser functions has exploded. Folks are
getting *very* creative!
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Re: [Wikitech-l] tran-subst-antiation
2009/4/19 William Allen Simpson william.allen.simp...@gmail.com:
Leading {{:: -- easy to type (already holding the shift key) -- same as
Leading {{## -- easy to type (already holding the shift key) -- obviously
Or not! Have a peek at [[Keyboard layout]] :)
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Re: [Wikitech-l] tran-subst-antiation
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Hash: SHA1
Maybe something like {{Special:ExpandTemplates}}.
X!
On Apr 19, 2009, at 2:29 PM [Apr 19, 2009 ], Aryeh Gregor wrote:
On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 2:16 PM, William Allen Simpson
william.allen.simp...@gmail.com wrote:
It's hard to document (subst doesn't seem to translate well or mean
anything to many folks), harder to remember, and hardest to type:
{{subst:TEMPLATE|P1|P2|subst=subst:}}
I'm often forgetting that final parameter, and conscientiously
have to edit
again. Others don't bother subst'ing at all!
Is there a solution proposed anywhere already?
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2777
It seems like this exists in an extension. I don't know whether the
extension is good enough to enable on Wikimedia and/or just add to
core; I haven't looked at it.
If not, here's my rough idea:
Leading {{:: -- easy to type (already holding the shift key) --
same as
{{subst: -- only happens in edit parsing, no change to database.
Leading {{## -- easy to type (already holding the shift key) --
obviously
must be different than {{:: -- used inside templates, tells the edit
parsing to subst: only subst'ing, otherwise ignored and treated as
concatenation. Same as C pre-processing operator.
I think an actual keyword like substall is better. It's possible to
Google the term to find documentation.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] tran-subst-antiation
Soxred93 wrote:
Maybe something like {{Special:ExpandTemplates}}.
That doesn't seem to apply. It doesn't allow parameters. And doesn't seem
particularly editor friendly. What would be the single line edit syntax?
For
{{subst:uw-v1|Article|subst=subst:}}
I'm thing about something like
{{::uw-v1|Article}}
Also
{{::USD|1.23}} or {{::CAD|1.23}} or {{::Yen|1.23}}
That is, something that editors would _actually_ use regularly ;-)
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Re: [Wikitech-l] tran-subst-antiation
Hello,
2009/4/19 William Allen Simpson william.allen.simp...@gmail.com:
Soxred93 wrote:
Maybe something like {{Special:ExpandTemplates}}.
That doesn't seem to apply. It doesn't allow parameters. And doesn't seem
particularly editor friendly. What would be the single line edit syntax?
For
{{subst:uw-v1|Article|subst=subst:}}
I'm thing about something like
{{::uw-v1|Article}}
Also
{{::USD|1.23}} or {{::CAD|1.23}} or {{::Yen|1.23}}
That is, something that editors would _actually_ use regularly ;-)
I would disagree with trying to use a symbol combination to achieve
what you want here, there are already so many and this will simply add
to the confusion that currently exists. I think the earlier suggestion
of substall would be satisfactory.
Thanks,
MinuteElectron
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Re: [Wikitech-l] tran-subst-antiation
On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 5:05 PM, William Allen Simpson
william.allen.simp...@gmail.com wrote:
It doesn't allow parameters.
It does, just don't subst it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:ExpandTemplates?input={{uw-v1|Article|subst=subst:}}+
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Casey Brown
Cbrown1023
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Re: [Wikitech-l] tran-subst-antiation
Casey Brown wrote:
It does, just don't subst it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:ExpandTemplates?input={{uw-v1|Article|subst=subst:}}+
sarcasm
Wow, I'm thinking, the edit box has gotten a lot more sophisticated than
ever, parsing long URLs and all that So, I copied that link, pasted it
into an edit box, hit preview, and I'm pretty sure that's not what folks
expect to put into a user Talk page! Did you try that before posting? :-(
When handling vandalism, the first step is to undo the problem, then copy
the name of the article, then click the user talk link, then type some
nice template shortcut, then paste the article name into the template, and
then click save.
Perhaps you could explain how this ExpandTemplates feature helps?
You expect folks to type that long URL from memory?
/sarcasm
And then take a look at AfD or CfD or RfD or TfD, noting that the subst: is
required to make the date constant, but that other templates inside the
XfD templates cannot be subst: at the same time, so substall: won't work
Anyway, it appears that nobody here knows a feature that handles the
issues cleanly, and I'll probably post a bug/RFE later this week.
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