Re: [Wikitech-l] bold and italic
On 11 May 2010 17:23, Makelesi Kora-Gonelevu makele...@gmail.com wrote: Hi i seem to have a problem with my wiki. Everytime i bold or italise a text and save it, it keeps adding more ' ' '. Has anyone ever come across this problem? This question gives me the opportunity for a question to experts about server load. Is really so harder for the server to manage html tags like b, /b, i,/i instead of usual wiki markup ''', ''? The former have a great advantage since they are well-formed tags (even if they are deprecated html tags), while wiki markup is not at all; this would make much simpler to manage them by some bot scripts. Sometimes I found almost impossible to select markup aposthophes from text apostophes in Italian texts by a script. -- Alex ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] bold and italic
Alex Brollo wrote: On 11 May 2010 17:23, Makelesi Kora-Gonelevu makele...@gmail.com wrote: Hi i seem to have a problem with my wiki. Everytime i bold or italise a text and save it, it keeps adding more ' ' '. Has anyone ever come across this problem? Do you have magic quotes or another module helpfully trying to avoid sql injections? This question gives me the opportunity for a question to experts about server load. Is really so harder for the server to manage html tags like b, /b, i,/i instead of usual wiki markup ''', ''? The former have a great advantage since they are well-formed tags (even if they are deprecated html tags), while wiki markup is not at all; this would make much simpler to manage them by some bot scripts. You can use b and i in the wiki. In fact '' and ''' translate into b and i. Sometimes I found almost impossible to select markup aposthophes from text apostophes in Italian texts by a script. Our rules to convert apostrophes are quite hard. The only way to do it right would be to reinterpret Parser::doQuotes() in your script. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] bold and italic
On 12 May 2010 13:33, Platonides platoni...@gmail.com wrote: Alex Brollo wrote: This question gives me the opportunity for a question to experts about server load. Is really so harder for the server to manage html tags like b, /b, i,/i instead of usual wiki markup ''', ''? The former have a great advantage since they are well-formed tags (even if they are deprecated html tags), while wiki markup is not at all; this would make much simpler to manage them by some bot scripts. You can use b and i in the wiki. In fact '' and ''' translate into b and i. Which reminds me, why doesn't it translates into strong and em or better yet, span style=font-weight: bold and span style=font-style: italic; ? It could still accept b and i, but translate them into correct HTML tags. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] bold and italic
Svip wrote: On 12 May 2010 13:33, Platonides platoni...@gmail.com wrote: Alex Brollo wrote: This question gives me the opportunity for a question to experts about server load. Is really so harder for the server to manage html tags like b, /b, i,/i instead of usual wiki markup ''', ''? The former have a great advantage since they are well-formed tags (even if they are deprecated html tags), while wiki markup is not at all; this would make much simpler to manage them by some bot scripts. You can use b and i in the wiki. In fact '' and ''' translate into b and i. Which reminds me, why doesn't it translates into strong and em or better yet, span style=font-weight: bold and span style=font-style: italic; ? It could still accept b and i, but translate them into correct HTML tags. Because not all '' wants to emphasize nor all ''' to make it strong. Old mediawiki did use strong and em but it was changed for the above reasons. You could use span style=font-weight: bold, but what's the point of that? Using b and i where what you really want is to make it bold and italic isn't deprecated. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] bold and italic
On 12 May 2010 13:57, Platonides platoni...@gmail.com wrote: You could use span style=font-weight: bold, but what's the point of that? Because it would be correct HTML. Using b and i where what you really want is to make it bold and italic isn't deprecated. Incorrect, they are deprecated exactly for that reason, because the HTML should in no way imply the style and appearance of the content. Let CSS take care of that. Of course, you could do span class=i and span class=b instead, to make it neater. And it would follow the standard too. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] bold and italic
On 05/12/2010 01:11 PM, Svip wrote: On 12 May 2010 13:57, Platonides platoni...@gmail.com wrote: You could use span style=font-weight: bold, but what's the point of that? Because it would be correct HTML. It's foul HTML... The whole point is that you say what you mean, not what it should look like. Using b and i where what you really want is to make it bold and italic isn't deprecated. Incorrect, they are deprecated exactly for that reason, because the HTML should in no way imply the style and appearance of the content. Let CSS take care of that. Of course, you could do span class=i and span class=b instead, to make it neater. And it would follow the standard too. It isn't deprecated. Conrad ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] bold and italic
Svip wrote:
On 12 May 2010 13:57, Platonides platoni...@gmail.com wrote:
You could use span style=font-weight: bold, but what's the point of
that?
Because it would be correct HTML.
Using b and i where what you really want is to make it bold and
italic isn't deprecated.
Incorrect, they are deprecated exactly for that reason, because the
HTML should in no way imply the style and appearance of the content.
Let CSS take care of that. Of course, you could do span class=i
and span class=b instead, to make it neater. And it would follow
the standard too.
{{reference needed}}
You should use CSS instead of b and i but if the meaning is make
this bold (as is the case from mediawiki, where we can't infer any more
relationship), it is perfectly fine to use b. As opposed to s, which
*is* deprecated.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] bold and italic
On 12 May 2010 14:24, Conrad Irwin conrad.ir...@gmail.com wrote: On 05/12/2010 01:11 PM, Svip wrote: On 12 May 2010 13:57, Platonides platoni...@gmail.com wrote: You could use span style=font-weight: bold, but what's the point of that? Because it would be correct HTML. It's foul HTML... The whole point is that you say what you mean, not what it should look like. How is bold and italic things you say? Maybe my own language isn't that nuanced. Using b and i where what you really want is to make it bold and italic isn't deprecated. Incorrect, they are deprecated exactly for that reason, because the HTML should in no way imply the style and appearance of the content. Let CSS take care of that. Of course, you could do span class=i and span class=b instead, to make it neater. And it would follow the standard too. It isn't deprecated. Okay, correct, but it is 'discouraged'. They even removed them in XHTML 2.0, not that anyone uses that. Though, I don't think it is going out of HTML5. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] bold and italic
On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 2:24 AM, Alex Brollo alex.bro...@gmail.com wrote: This question gives me the opportunity for a question to experts about server load. Is really so harder for the server to manage html tags like b, /b, i,/i instead of usual wiki markup ''', ''? No, it's much easier. b and i are handled in one pass with all the other HTML elements, ''' and '' require their own horrible hacky unpredictable pass in the parser. ''' and '' are intended to be more user-friendly, not more robot-friendly. If we could kill them now, I'd be all in favor, but it's way too late for that. The former have a great advantage since they are well-formed tags They don't have to be well-formed. biHi there!/b/i is valid wiki markup, in that it will do what you want and nothing complains about it. You can also omit closing tags. (even if they are deprecated html tags), b and i are not deprecated in any standard we care about. while wiki markup is not at all; this would make much simpler to manage them by some bot scripts. Sometimes I found almost impossible to select markup aposthophes from text apostophes in Italian texts by a script. Yes, it's pretty terrible. Your only reliable bet is to reverse-engineer doQuotes() from includes/parser/Parser.php. Although of course that's run after various other passes are already done, particularly preprocessing, so even then it won't be totally reliable. On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 7:39 AM, Svip svi...@gmail.com wrote: Which reminds me, why doesn't it translates into strong and em This is completely wrong. b/i originally meant make this bold/italic, for no particular reason. This is what people actually mean when they type '' and ''', so pretending they necessarily want emphasis is wrong. Wordpress does this -- they have buttons that look like the bold/italic buttons from Word or whatnot, but actually create strong and em. That defeats the entire point of using strong/em instead of b/i. It's standards cargo-culting. or better yet, span style=font-weight: bold and span style=font-style: italic; ? These have the exact same semantics as b and i, but are much longer, so there's no point in any practical sense. We should try to follow standards even if they don't make much sense (as long as they're not too harmful), just to be supportive and pro-standards and whatever. But we don't need to do stupid things that *aren't* actually required by standards, and this isn't. On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 9:19 AM, Svip svi...@gmail.com wrote: Okay, correct, but it is 'discouraged'. They even removed them in XHTML 2.0, not that anyone uses that. Though, I don't think it is going out of HTML5. b and i are not deprecated or removed or discouraged in HTML5, or in XHTML 1.0 Transitional, which are the standards we use. You can read the HTML5 definitions at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/text-level-semantics.html#the-i-element. They're cleverly defined to be semantic elements whose semantics are whatever people use bold or italics for: The i element represents a span of text in an alternate voice or mood, or otherwise offset from the normal prose, such as a taxonomic designation, a technical term, an idiomatic phrase from another language, a thought, a ship name, or some other prose whose typical typographic presentation is italicized. The b element represents a span of text to be stylistically offset from the normal prose without conveying any extra importance, such as key words in a document abstract, product names in a review, or other spans of text whose typical typographic presentation is boldened. See, it's semantic! :P The examples there (for both elements) do highlight a lot of cases where you really do need bold or italics but it's not for emphasis or anything else we have an actual tag for. Using span style=whatever in all those cases would be silly. According to the HTML5 spec, authors SHOULD use (or are encouraged to consider using) b/i only when there's no more suitable replacement like strong or em. They MUST not use strong or em for anything other than emphasis (see http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/elements.html#semantics-0). But we can't enforce either of those at the software level, so it's up to users to comply themselves. If they don't, we should at least have them violate the SHOULD/encouraged to consider instead of the MUST, if you want to do standards-lawyering. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] bold and italic
Well, as some of you told before, wiki software converts bold and italic markup into b and i tags; my suggestion is to use them as largely as possible if they don't overload the server, and if particular use of apostrophes into a particular language (as Italian) raises any trouble. If they are deprecated or discouraged, they could be converted in CSS by the software, if really needed. -- Alex ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] bold and italic
Media Wiki Version 1.15.1 Extensions installed - Wikilog, External Data, Parser Functions and Custom Title. On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Ryan Bies r...@yaauie.com wrote: Could you please also provide what version of MediaWiki you are running? Please also include any extensions you've recently installed, as they could be contributing factors. You may find better luck finding help in an interactive format, like #mediawiki on IRC: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_on_IRC On 11 May 2010 17:23, Makelesi Kora-Gonelevu makele...@gmail.com wrote: Hi i seem to have a problem with my wiki. Everytime i bold or italise a text and save it, it keeps adding more ' ' '. Has anyone ever come across this problem? ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] bold and italic
Thanks everyone i used the html tags b and i and it seems to have solved the problem for now. Great discussion though on the use of quotes and tags. On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 8:57 AM, Makelesi Kora-Gonelevu makele...@gmail.com wrote: Media Wiki Version 1.15.1 Extensions installed - Wikilog, External Data, Parser Functions and Custom Title. On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Ryan Bies r...@yaauie.com wrote: Could you please also provide what version of MediaWiki you are running? Please also include any extensions you've recently installed, as they could be contributing factors. You may find better luck finding help in an interactive format, like #mediawiki on IRC: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_on_IRC On 11 May 2010 17:23, Makelesi Kora-Gonelevu makele...@gmail.com wrote: Hi i seem to have a problem with my wiki. Everytime i bold or italise a text and save it, it keeps adding more ' ' '. Has anyone ever come across this problem? ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] bold and italic
Could you please also provide what version of MediaWiki you are running? Please also include any extensions you've recently installed, as they could be contributing factors. You may find better luck finding help in an interactive format, like #mediawiki on IRC: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_on_IRC On 11 May 2010 17:23, Makelesi Kora-Gonelevu makele...@gmail.com wrote: Hi i seem to have a problem with my wiki. Everytime i bold or italise a text and save it, it keeps adding more ' ' '. Has anyone ever come across this problem? ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
