Re: [WISPA] ARIN IP Application
Just went back and reviewed ARIN pricing. Yes they have dropped their pricing. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 6:29 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] ARIN IP Application On Mon, September 25, 2006 1:30 pm, Tom DeReggi wrote: I thought a /20 was the minimum allocation. Also not sure that it would be cost justified for IP blocks smaller than /19 all things considered. From the ARIN NRPM (abridged): You can't multihome unless you have at least a /24, but ARIN won't give you a /24. You'd have to get that from an existing upstream. If you're already multihomed and want your own allocation, it'll be a /22 or larger. If you're singlehomed, the smallest allocation is a /20. The costs aren't that bad, really. (We have a /19 and we're only paying $2250 a year, which is well worth it for the relative independence it buys us from our upstream.) David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion
The link: 4.5 miles, 1 Big fat building in the way, barely unable to clear the roof. Noise floor high. Limits: Noise Floor to high for PtMP Trango, based on obstruction. Stats: rssi -75 -78, noise -79 or worse on Horiz, Vert worse, RSSI almost 15db below calculations due to NLOS ) Solution: Install PTP to get more gain on AP side, Add OFDM to help with obstruction. Trango 5830 was invaluable to determine what was going on. It's built-in survey command was able to determine the noise floor on all channels accurately, and home in on the fact that the link was marginal because of gear that used a 20Mhz channel half way between Trango's channels. StarOS w/ 28 dbi PAcwireless on both sides- Got -55 -60 rssi. Good link, but it was not perfect, with 1 out of 20 large ping packets with high latency. It would regularly negotiate down to 36mbps or 18 mbps on one side. StarOS w/ 28db on one side, and 23dbi on other side- Got -60 -65 rssi. Excellent / Perfect link. Stayed constant at 54 mbps, with a very rare negotiation down to 48mbps or 36mbps. We believe this is becaue one of two reasons, reflections off the building right back at us, or the wide beamwidth of lower gain antenna to help use multi-path to optimize OFDM. We often felt 19-23 dbi antenna ideal for OFDM. This put us above the noise of most of the channels, and narrowed our beam compared to PtMP to reduce noise. OFDM clearly helped to not lose rssi due to the building obstruction, and gain was not received solely from higher gain of PTP antennas. The problem with STAROS-V3... We ran survey, and picked up ZERO interference or devices, but yet we know that there is lots of interfering devices out there. The Quality reading was pointless at either 100% or 13% with very little correlation to what the link actual performance was. Hard setting modulation, to 24mbps, left the link unusable, even when Quality of 100 was shown. When we put modulation on auto, every thing worked well. SNR was only available on client side, and not accurate, reading only a -95 (which may have been average, but not peak noise, based on Trango scans). Basically, with the STAROS box, we were left totally in the dark, on what the noise environment was. We really missed the detail of the Trango tools, and not sure what we would have done, if we had not had a Trango on site simultaneously gathering test results. We learned via the Trango, that we could have survived the noise with a 10 Mhz channel, that the StarOS allowed, but we would not have known where that was without the Trango test results. We relied on End to End large pings to determine link state during tests, and were glad to see the addition of Iperf embedded in StarOS for more strenuous testing afterwords. The end result... We left the StarOS installed for a perfect link, and defined many possible options should interference need to be battled in the future. We saved a bunch on hardware, costing us under $1000 in equipment for the link, and delivered the highest quality link, as any gear could offer. But this brings me to my point of this post. What was the true cost of this job? I spent a day installing Trango PTMP. I spent a day isntalling StarOS, both with two engineers. I lost a months revenue, delaying my trips between upgrades and tests. At a price, All these headaches could have been avoided. Most likely Trango Atlas PTP would have solved the problem and given us the benefits of Trango testing tools, and OFDM, and price under $3000. But there was some risk in trying that solution. In the past we've had difficulty in high noise environments, and/or to high of RSSI. We did not have an Atlas on hand to test. We took the time to do a test with Alvarion B40 that we had on hand. The Alvarion picked up the noise in its survey. The Alvarion gave us accurate SNR readings that we could use to best plan the link configuration. And the link quality was perfect as well using the 28dbi and 23 dbi antennas. So had I used the Alvarion VL to begin with, I would have saved our company two days in labor, and would have had all the tools that I needed to install the link easilly the first time and to adapt in the future. Alvarion clearly would have been the winning choice. It gave me confidence that in future jobs IF I had to design a link in advance blind, I could order an Alvarion, and it likely would best be qualified to complete the job successfuly. I ended up keeping the StarOS in place. The reason was two fold. 1) I already spent the time, so why not save the money on equipment. And secondly, at the AP side, I wanted to add a second radio card. Because I switched the link to PTP, the other client that was being served via the PtMP, still needed to be served. For $100, I was able to add the second card, and install a second sector to serve that subscriber still. (two sectors for the price of one). Every product has its value. You be
RE: [WISPA] 900 MHz Omni-Directional Antennas PRICE!?
You might want to check out til-tek and antel. They are not cheap, but they are highh quality. c -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Joshua M. AndrewsSent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 9:37 PMTo: wireless@wispa.orgSubject: [WISPA] 900 MHz Omni-Directional Antennas PRICE!? Hello all, Im planning on purchasing some test equipment designed around the SR9 900 MHz equipment. Im debating between MikroTik and WRAP boards at the moment and have found an outdoor enclosure that should work fine. However, the big question is what antennas to use for both the AP and the CPE. I found some sites that offer 900 MHz Omnis but the prices are CRAZY! Into the $300 range! As for a client side it seems to be a little more realistic of around $20 up to the hundreds of dollars depending on the type needed. Am I crazy or am I destined to pay about $300 for an Omni-directional antenna!? Also, if anybody has any EXACT configurations they would like to recommend for my first SR9 AP and CPE setup please feel free to post the details of you recommended configurations! Thanks! Sincerely, Joshua M. Andrews www.QCSitter.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion
Thanks Tom, Your findings are in line with what many Alvarion operators also enjoy. Ease of installs and low operational costs. Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 3:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion The link: 4.5 miles, 1 Big fat building in the way, barely unable to clear the roof. Noise floor high. Limits: Noise Floor to high for PtMP Trango, based on obstruction. Stats: rssi -75 -78, noise -79 or worse on Horiz, Vert worse, RSSI almost 15db below calculations due to NLOS ) Solution: Install PTP to get more gain on AP side, Add OFDM to help with obstruction. Trango 5830 was invaluable to determine what was going on. It's built-in survey command was able to determine the noise floor on all channels accurately, and home in on the fact that the link was marginal because of gear that used a 20Mhz channel half way between Trango's channels. StarOS w/ 28 dbi PAcwireless on both sides- Got -55 -60 rssi. Good link, but it was not perfect, with 1 out of 20 large ping packets with high latency. It would regularly negotiate down to 36mbps or 18 mbps on one side. StarOS w/ 28db on one side, and 23dbi on other side- Got -60 -65 rssi. Excellent / Perfect link. Stayed constant at 54 mbps, with a very rare negotiation down to 48mbps or 36mbps. We believe this is becaue one of two reasons, reflections off the building right back at us, or the wide beamwidth of lower gain antenna to help use multi-path to optimize OFDM. We often felt 19-23 dbi antenna ideal for OFDM. This put us above the noise of most of the channels, and narrowed our beam compared to PtMP to reduce noise. OFDM clearly helped to not lose rssi due to the building obstruction, and gain was not received solely from higher gain of PTP antennas. The problem with STAROS-V3... We ran survey, and picked up ZERO interference or devices, but yet we know that there is lots of interfering devices out there. The Quality reading was pointless at either 100% or 13% with very little correlation to what the link actual performance was. Hard setting modulation, to 24mbps, left the link unusable, even when Quality of 100 was shown. When we put modulation on auto, every thing worked well. SNR was only available on client side, and not accurate, reading only a -95 (which may have been average, but not peak noise, based on Trango scans). Basically, with the STAROS box, we were left totally in the dark, on what the noise environment was. We really missed the detail of the Trango tools, and not sure what we would have done, if we had not had a Trango on site simultaneously gathering test results. We learned via the Trango, that we could have survived the noise with a 10 Mhz channel, that the StarOS allowed, but we would not have known where that was without the Trango test results. We relied on End to End large pings to determine link state during tests, and were glad to see the addition of Iperf embedded in StarOS for more strenuous testing afterwords. The end result... We left the StarOS installed for a perfect link, and defined many possible options should interference need to be battled in the future. We saved a bunch on hardware, costing us under $1000 in equipment for the link, and delivered the highest quality link, as any gear could offer. But this brings me to my point of this post. What was the true cost of this job? I spent a day installing Trango PTMP. I spent a day isntalling StarOS, both with two engineers. I lost a months revenue, delaying my trips between upgrades and tests. At a price, All these headaches could have been avoided. Most likely Trango Atlas PTP would have solved the problem and given us the benefits of Trango testing tools, and OFDM, and price under $3000. But there was some risk in trying that solution. In the past we've had difficulty in high noise environments, and/or to high of RSSI. We did not have an Atlas on hand to test. We took the time to do a test with Alvarion B40 that we had on hand. The Alvarion picked up the noise in its survey. The Alvarion gave us accurate SNR readings that we could use to best plan the link configuration. And the link quality was perfect as well using the 28dbi and 23 dbi antennas. So had I used the Alvarion VL to begin with, I would have saved our company two days in labor, and would have had all the tools that I needed to install the link easilly the first time and to adapt in the future. Alvarion clearly would have been the winning choice. It gave me confidence that in future jobs IF I had to design a link in advance blind, I could order an Alvarion, and it likely would best be qualified to complete the job successfuly. I ended up keeping the StarOS in place. The reason was two fold. 1) I already spent the time, so why not save the money on equipment. And secondly, at the AP side, I
RE: [WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion
I don't know, I like Alvarion EQ, but I'm sure that the gist I got from Tom's post was that the only vendor he could trust to get the job done right because of the available test tools was Trango. Am I off base there, Tom ? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Larson Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 10:47 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion Thanks Tom, Your findings are in line with what many Alvarion operators also enjoy. Ease of installs and low operational costs. Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 3:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion The link: 4.5 miles, 1 Big fat building in the way, barely unable to clear the roof. Noise floor high. Limits: Noise Floor to high for PtMP Trango, based on obstruction. Stats: rssi -75 -78, noise -79 or worse on Horiz, Vert worse, RSSI almost 15db below calculations due to NLOS ) Solution: Install PTP to get more gain on AP side, Add OFDM to help with obstruction. Trango 5830 was invaluable to determine what was going on. It's built-in survey command was able to determine the noise floor on all channels accurately, and home in on the fact that the link was marginal because of gear that used a 20Mhz channel half way between Trango's channels. StarOS w/ 28 dbi PAcwireless on both sides- Got -55 -60 rssi. Good link, but it was not perfect, with 1 out of 20 large ping packets with high latency. It would regularly negotiate down to 36mbps or 18 mbps on one side. StarOS w/ 28db on one side, and 23dbi on other side- Got -60 -65 rssi. Excellent / Perfect link. Stayed constant at 54 mbps, with a very rare negotiation down to 48mbps or 36mbps. We believe this is becaue one of two reasons, reflections off the building right back at us, or the wide beamwidth of lower gain antenna to help use multi-path to optimize OFDM. We often felt 19-23 dbi antenna ideal for OFDM. This put us above the noise of most of the channels, and narrowed our beam compared to PtMP to reduce noise. OFDM clearly helped to not lose rssi due to the building obstruction, and gain was not received solely from higher gain of PTP antennas. The problem with STAROS-V3... We ran survey, and picked up ZERO interference or devices, but yet we know that there is lots of interfering devices out there. The Quality reading was pointless at either 100% or 13% with very little correlation to what the link actual performance was. Hard setting modulation, to 24mbps, left the link unusable, even when Quality of 100 was shown. When we put modulation on auto, every thing worked well. SNR was only available on client side, and not accurate, reading only a -95 (which may have been average, but not peak noise, based on Trango scans). Basically, with the STAROS box, we were left totally in the dark, on what the noise environment was. We really missed the detail of the Trango tools, and not sure what we would have done, if we had not had a Trango on site simultaneously gathering test results. We learned via the Trango, that we could have survived the noise with a 10 Mhz channel, that the StarOS allowed, but we would not have known where that was without the Trango test results. We relied on End to End large pings to determine link state during tests, and were glad to see the addition of Iperf embedded in StarOS for more strenuous testing afterwords. The end result... We left the StarOS installed for a perfect link, and defined many possible options should interference need to be battled in the future. We saved a bunch on hardware, costing us under $1000 in equipment for the link, and delivered the highest quality link, as any gear could offer. But this brings me to my point of this post. What was the true cost of this job? I spent a day installing Trango PTMP. I spent a day isntalling StarOS, both with two engineers. I lost a months revenue, delaying my trips between upgrades and tests. At a price, All these headaches could have been avoided. Most likely Trango Atlas PTP would have solved the problem and given us the benefits of Trango testing tools, and OFDM, and price under $3000. But there was some risk in trying that solution. In the past we've had difficulty in high noise environments, and/or to high of RSSI. We did not have an Atlas on hand to test. We took the time to do a test with Alvarion B40 that we had on hand. The Alvarion picked up the noise in its survey. The Alvarion gave us accurate SNR readings that we could use to best plan the link configuration. And the link quality was perfect as well using the 28dbi and 23 dbi antennas. So had I used the Alvarion VL to begin with, I would have saved our company two days in labor, and would have had all the tools that I needed to install the link easilly the first time and to adapt
[WISPA] BridgeWave Empowers One Ring to Rule Atlanta's Skies
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/060926/20060926005421.html?.v=1 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] 900 MHz Omni-Directional Antennas PRICE!?
Inside dimensions: 16.25 x 14.75 x 1 It's enough to put in a board with stansdoffs but not much more. From: Scott Reed Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 7:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 MHz Omni-Directional Antennas PRICE!? I know someone that has a 900MHz Rootenna. Disappointed that they are only about 1 deep inside. RB112 is just under 1-1/4. He made it fit, but not happy about the way it went together. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion
I agree that Tom's findings are accurate and mirror the real world, even to the conclusion -- they use our gear at the end of the exercise. It just means we'll have to work on our installation and troubleshooting tools. Lonnie On 9/27/06, Brad Larson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Tom, Your findings are in line with what many Alvarion operators also enjoy. Ease of installs and low operational costs. Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 3:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion The link: 4.5 miles, 1 Big fat building in the way, barely unable to clear the roof. Noise floor high. Limits: Noise Floor to high for PtMP Trango, based on obstruction. Stats: rssi -75 -78, noise -79 or worse on Horiz, Vert worse, RSSI almost 15db below calculations due to NLOS ) Solution: Install PTP to get more gain on AP side, Add OFDM to help with obstruction. Trango 5830 was invaluable to determine what was going on. It's built-in survey command was able to determine the noise floor on all channels accurately, and home in on the fact that the link was marginal because of gear that used a 20Mhz channel half way between Trango's channels. StarOS w/ 28 dbi PAcwireless on both sides- Got -55 -60 rssi. Good link, but it was not perfect, with 1 out of 20 large ping packets with high latency. It would regularly negotiate down to 36mbps or 18 mbps on one side. StarOS w/ 28db on one side, and 23dbi on other side- Got -60 -65 rssi. Excellent / Perfect link. Stayed constant at 54 mbps, with a very rare negotiation down to 48mbps or 36mbps. We believe this is becaue one of two reasons, reflections off the building right back at us, or the wide beamwidth of lower gain antenna to help use multi-path to optimize OFDM. We often felt 19-23 dbi antenna ideal for OFDM. This put us above the noise of most of the channels, and narrowed our beam compared to PtMP to reduce noise. OFDM clearly helped to not lose rssi due to the building obstruction, and gain was not received solely from higher gain of PTP antennas. The problem with STAROS-V3... We ran survey, and picked up ZERO interference or devices, but yet we know that there is lots of interfering devices out there. The Quality reading was pointless at either 100% or 13% with very little correlation to what the link actual performance was. Hard setting modulation, to 24mbps, left the link unusable, even when Quality of 100 was shown. When we put modulation on auto, every thing worked well. SNR was only available on client side, and not accurate, reading only a -95 (which may have been average, but not peak noise, based on Trango scans). Basically, with the STAROS box, we were left totally in the dark, on what the noise environment was. We really missed the detail of the Trango tools, and not sure what we would have done, if we had not had a Trango on site simultaneously gathering test results. We learned via the Trango, that we could have survived the noise with a 10 Mhz channel, that the StarOS allowed, but we would not have known where that was without the Trango test results. We relied on End to End large pings to determine link state during tests, and were glad to see the addition of Iperf embedded in StarOS for more strenuous testing afterwords. The end result... We left the StarOS installed for a perfect link, and defined many possible options should interference need to be battled in the future. We saved a bunch on hardware, costing us under $1000 in equipment for the link, and delivered the highest quality link, as any gear could offer. But this brings me to my point of this post. What was the true cost of this job? I spent a day installing Trango PTMP. I spent a day isntalling StarOS, both with two engineers. I lost a months revenue, delaying my trips between upgrades and tests. At a price, All these headaches could have been avoided. Most likely Trango Atlas PTP would have solved the problem and given us the benefits of Trango testing tools, and OFDM, and price under $3000. But there was some risk in trying that solution. In the past we've had difficulty in high noise environments, and/or to high of RSSI. We did not have an Atlas on hand to test. We took the time to do a test with Alvarion B40 that we had on hand. The Alvarion picked up the noise in its survey. The Alvarion gave us accurate SNR readings that we could use to best plan the link configuration. And the link quality was perfect as well using the 28dbi and 23 dbi antennas. So had I used the Alvarion VL to begin with, I would have saved our company two days in labor, and would have had all the tools that I needed to install the link easilly the first time and to adapt in the future. Alvarion clearly would have been the winning choice. It gave me confidence that in future jobs IF I had to design a link in advance blind, I could order an Alvarion, and it
RE: [WISPA] BridgeWave Empowers One Ring to Rule Atlanta's Skies
Nice going Matt!!! Dustin -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 11:29 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] BridgeWave Empowers One Ring to Rule Atlanta's Skies http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/060926/20060926005421.html?.v=1 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 900 MHz Omni-Directional Antennas PRICE!?
$300 is pretty cheap for a good quality 900 mhz omni. And remember to watch the shipping costs on them. The higher gain units are 10+ feet long. Marlon(509) 982-2181 Equipment sales(408) 907-6910 (Vonage) Consulting services42846865 (icq) And I run my own wisp!64.146.146.12 (net meeting)www.odessaoffice.com/wirelesswww.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Joshua M. Andrews To: wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:37 PM Subject: [WISPA] 900 MHz Omni-Directional Antennas PRICE!? Hello all, Im planning on purchasing some test equipment designed around the SR9 900 MHz equipment. Im debating between MikroTik and WRAP boards at the moment and have found an outdoor enclosure that should work fine. However, the big question is what antennas to use for both the AP and the CPE. I found some sites that offer 900 MHz Omnis but the prices are CRAZY! Into the $300 range! As for a client side it seems to be a little more realistic of around $20 up to the hundreds of dollars depending on the type needed. Am I crazy or am I destined to pay about $300 for an Omni-directional antenna!? Also, if anybody has any EXACT configurations they would like to recommend for my first SR9 AP and CPE setup please feel free to post the details of you recommended configurations! Thanks! Sincerely, Joshua M. Andrews www.QCSitter.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgSubscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelessArchives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion
My conclusion was that Alvarion was the safest bet. (award winning caliber) They could provide performance, time efficiency, and capable to gather equivellent accurate realtime testing data, via Alvarion EQ and SNR readings. However, there are many factors in selecting a radio, and safest bet, is not always the true need. Sometimes its the best compromise to meet multiple needs. What can't you do without? I currently have more Trango and StarOS backhauls on my network, for what ever reason. My point in the post is that, if a provider realizes the true characteristics of the various products, and is honest with themselves on what the true need/value of a specific link is, or true need of the provider, they can make the best choice for each case. Every product has its value, or it would be discontinued. I will clarify further... In this particular case, StarOS won. And I see that there will be many cases in the future where StarOS will win again. But it brought forward a limitation, that will likely influence me not to use it for many cases where it is not apppropraite to take the risk of using it. In this particular case, the Atlas PTP was least attractive, as it does not have real-time SNR capabilty, which is a valuable tool, and this particular case Dual-Polarity had no additional value, since the noise floor on the other pol (verticle) was way to high and consistent. The original AP link actually had been in place as a PTMP for several years, and we knew the Verticle Pol competitors were there first, so I had no intentions of wanting to step on their links. In the future, I know there will be links, that I will not justify doing without real-time SNR statistics. But these comments do not negate the value of Trango PTPs. There are many cases where Trango Atlas, will likely be the best compromise to meet all needs. Trango still delivers best value per mb (price), with Dual-Polarity flexibilty, and best of class testing tools. The other issue, that comes up is channel center freqs. The Atlas PtPs fits nicely into my existing network, because they operate at full capacity on the same channel options, as my Trango PtMPs. But will Trango PtMP, stay my primary PtMP, for new deployments? That has not been determined. If I chose an alternate PtMP solution based on Atheros, that uses different channel center freqs, the Alvarion(Atheros) PTPs may better fit, into the network. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Rick Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 11:18 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion I don't know, I like Alvarion EQ, but I'm sure that the gist I got from Tom's post was that the only vendor he could trust to get the job done right because of the available test tools was Trango. Am I off base there, Tom ? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Larson Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 10:47 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion Thanks Tom, Your findings are in line with what many Alvarion operators also enjoy. Ease of installs and low operational costs. Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 3:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion The link: 4.5 miles, 1 Big fat building in the way, barely unable to clear the roof. Noise floor high. Limits: Noise Floor to high for PtMP Trango, based on obstruction. Stats: rssi -75 -78, noise -79 or worse on Horiz, Vert worse, RSSI almost 15db below calculations due to NLOS ) Solution: Install PTP to get more gain on AP side, Add OFDM to help with obstruction. Trango 5830 was invaluable to determine what was going on. It's built-in survey command was able to determine the noise floor on all channels accurately, and home in on the fact that the link was marginal because of gear that used a 20Mhz channel half way between Trango's channels. StarOS w/ 28 dbi PAcwireless on both sides- Got -55 -60 rssi. Good link, but it was not perfect, with 1 out of 20 large ping packets with high latency. It would regularly negotiate down to 36mbps or 18 mbps on one side. StarOS w/ 28db on one side, and 23dbi on other side- Got -60 -65 rssi. Excellent / Perfect link. Stayed constant at 54 mbps, with a very rare negotiation down to 48mbps or 36mbps. We believe this is becaue one of two reasons, reflections off the building right back at us, or the wide beamwidth of lower gain antenna to help use multi-path to optimize OFDM. We often felt 19-23 dbi antenna ideal for OFDM. This put us above the noise of most of the channels, and narrowed our beam compared to PtMP to reduce noise. OFDM clearly
RE: [WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion
All are respectable products, all intending to serve the market need at their intended value proposition. WHAT I REALLY took from your detailed post Tom and the posts of many others these past few days is that, quite simply, Alvarion is doing an inadequate job of showing our value to WISPs. While we often might yield the best total result (very time-saving ergo cost justifying installation and solid performance with top set'n'forget reliability), we are often the last thing tried by many WISPs. In other words, other things get in the way of our getting a shot at the business from the start. That's the thing I am working to solve. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 12:15 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion My conclusion was that Alvarion was the safest bet. (award winning caliber) They could provide performance, time efficiency, and capable to gather equivellent accurate realtime testing data, via Alvarion EQ and SNR readings. However, there are many factors in selecting a radio, and safest bet, is not always the true need. Sometimes its the best compromise to meet multiple needs. What can't you do without? I currently have more Trango and StarOS backhauls on my network, for what ever reason. My point in the post is that, if a provider realizes the true characteristics of the various products, and is honest with themselves on what the true need/value of a specific link is, or true need of the provider, they can make the best choice for each case. Every product has its value, or it would be discontinued. I will clarify further... In this particular case, StarOS won. And I see that there will be many cases in the future where StarOS will win again. But it brought forward a limitation, that will likely influence me not to use it for many cases where it is not apppropraite to take the risk of using it. In this particular case, the Atlas PTP was least attractive, as it does not have real-time SNR capabilty, which is a valuable tool, and this particular case Dual-Polarity had no additional value, since the noise floor on the other pol (verticle) was way to high and consistent. The original AP link actually had been in place as a PTMP for several years, and we knew the Verticle Pol competitors were there first, so I had no intentions of wanting to step on their links. In the future, I know there will be links, that I will not justify doing without real-time SNR statistics. But these comments do not negate the value of Trango PTPs. There are many cases where Trango Atlas, will likely be the best compromise to meet all needs. Trango still delivers best value per mb (price), with Dual-Polarity flexibilty, and best of class testing tools. The other issue, that comes up is channel center freqs. The Atlas PtPs fits nicely into my existing network, because they operate at full capacity on the same channel options, as my Trango PtMPs. But will Trango PtMP, stay my primary PtMP, for new deployments? That has not been determined. If I chose an alternate PtMP solution based on Atheros, that uses different channel center freqs, the Alvarion(Atheros) PTPs may better fit, into the network. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Rick Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 11:18 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion I don't know, I like Alvarion EQ, but I'm sure that the gist I got from Tom's post was that the only vendor he could trust to get the job done right because of the available test tools was Trango. Am I off base there, Tom ? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Larson Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 10:47 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion Thanks Tom, Your findings are in line with what many Alvarion operators also enjoy. Ease of installs and low operational costs. Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 3:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion The link: 4.5 miles, 1 Big fat building in the way, barely unable to clear the roof. Noise floor high. Limits: Noise Floor to high for PtMP Trango, based on obstruction. Stats: rssi -75 -78, noise -79 or worse on Horiz, Vert worse, RSSI almost 15db below calculations due to NLOS ) Solution: Install PTP to get more gain on AP side, Add OFDM to help with obstruction. Trango 5830 was invaluable to
[WISPA] Site lease legal brief
I found this interesting online legal brief that discusses issues to consider regarding tower/site leases for wireless. Thought you guys might find it interesting. http://www.dcba.org/brief/octissue/2002/art21002.htm Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Source for Routerboad 532a
Title: Source for Routerboad 532a Anyone know were to get them? Available stock Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Source for Routerboad 532a
CTI was out of stock when I ordered a week ago, but mine showed up yesterday. Unless they got rid of them all in one day, CTI would have them. Brian Gino A. Villarini wrote: Anyone know were to get them? Available stock Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Source for Routerboad 532a
Just got a call from them, they have 200 in stock Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Rohrbacher Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 4:31 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Source for Routerboad 532a CTI was out of stock when I ordered a week ago, but mine showed up yesterday. Unless they got rid of them all in one day, CTI would have them. Brian Gino A. Villarini wrote: Anyone know were to get them? Available stock Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Site lease legal brief
No doubt an interesting read if you're a Cellular Company, but far from the reality for wISPs today. That article is four years old and the information within is even older...probably based from the .COM heyday. It's about as relevant to wISP tower leases today as this article is to my wife: http://www.aislingmagazine.com/aislingmagazine/articles/TAM31/wife1.html grin Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 2:57 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Site lease legal brief I found this interesting online legal brief that discusses issues to consider regarding tower/site leases for wireless. Thought you guys might find it interesting. http://www.dcba.org/brief/octissue/2002/art21002.htm Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Site lease legal brief
Actually, they both are kind of funny. The Dupage County Bar Association page, while it may be revelant in Dupage county, in the rest of the US it has very limited applicablity. - Original Message - From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 4:15 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Site lease legal brief No doubt an interesting read if you're a Cellular Company, but far from the reality for wISPs today. That article is four years old and the information within is even older...probably based from the .COM heyday. It's about as relevant to wISP tower leases today as this article is to my wife: http://www.aislingmagazine.com/aislingmagazine/articles/TAM31/wife1.html grin Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 2:57 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Site lease legal brief I found this interesting online legal brief that discusses issues to consider regarding tower/site leases for wireless. Thought you guys might find it interesting. http://www.dcba.org/brief/octissue/2002/art21002.htm Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Ubiquiti 4 9 cards
Anyone know where I can get these today. In stock Tnx Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion
On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, Patrick Leary wrote: WHAT I REALLY took from your detailed post Tom and the posts of many others these past few days is that, quite simply, Alvarion is doing an inadequate job of showing our value to WISPs. While we often might yield the best total result (very time-saving ergo cost justifying installation and solid performance with top set'n'forget reliability), we are often the last thing tried by many WISPs. I think this is because there are a great many WISPs out there who use the following equation: COST = VALUE Instead of taking into account that cost is only a portion of the value proposition. I think that Alvarion's gear is (in many cases) the best solution for many things. I can't say that it is ALWAYS the best choice. I think that if you want to change the impression that WISPs have of Alvarion, you need to continue where you started a LONG time ago (before you left this market place) and help them understand that cost and value are NOT equivalent. I think, also, that you (as a manufacturer) need to understand that, while it is true that you offer a HUGE number of features, many people simply don't need all the stuff you offer. In those cases, the cost of your equipment is much too high for the value that they provide. I think that Tom's original post pointed this out very well. I don't know what the cost of the Alvarion gear Tom mentioned goes for, but even if we assume that the link was a $4000 cost. He spent 2 days installing and tweaking this link. What he ended up with is a perfect link with less than $1k in hard equipment cost. This includes the AP that he needs for that location. You have $3k to make up in value in that case. I know that SOME of that (maybe half) would be made up by saving him 1 day's time. Either way, the raw cost of the Alvarion solution would be still about $1k higher. Having said it this way, would Alvarion be able to offer $1k in value above what he already has in place now? Especially considering that he has what he already needs, I doubt that you can. Please don't take this the wrong way, because it is not intended as a bash. I am no longer a WISP, but I DO offer advice to WISPs on equipment selections and have (on several occasions) recommended Alvarion as a potential solution. I will continue to do this when I see it as an appropriate place in the network. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Indiana WISPA Meeting a Success
Wireless ISPs from around the state of Indiana recently held a one day conference in Indianapolis. The true spirit of the meeting was to find ways that we could all work together to begin minimizing costs and to learn about each other and our individual talents. We had over 30 companies that were represented. The morning session was filled with speakers representing different divisions of the State Government, RUS and Ball State presented a pretty cool GIS graphics program which predicts radio propagation in 3D. Then in the afternoon, we organized breakout sessions where the WISPs could talk in small groups about installations, marketing, equipment infrastructure, support and other pertinent items of interest. Interest was very high to continue having these meetings on a quarterly basis and we expect to have our next one in December. Hopefully, we will begin to see how this interactive session will make allies amongst competitors as we all seek to find better ways to accomplish our business plans by keeping our overhead low. There were some great ideas that were suggested from this gathering and Im sure other states could benefit from having meetings like this. I want to welcome our newest WISPA member, Sit-Co, a WISP in southern Indiana who just joined WISPA today. Meetings like this will do more for our strength as an industry than just about anything else. Anyone that has ever attended WISPNOG, WISPCON or ISPCON, knows full well that often more is learned through conversations with others in the industry than from the speakers themselves. I would like to thank David Weddell for organizing this meeting and will be willing to talk to others who are interested in doing the same thing. Incidentally, we have over 60 members on the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list. We try to use it as much as possible to communicate with each other on legislative challenges and possible cooperative efforts that might potentially help our industry. Respectfully, Rick Harnish President OnlyInternet Broadband Wireless, Inc. 260-827-2482 Founding Member of WISPA -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion
I really appreciate the post Butch. Know that I have been reading (and re-reading) and soaking up all this stuff. I WILL convert on a number of these things (i.e. performing actions that directly address many of the issues presented). By the way, why are you not a WISP anymore? Doesn't being out of the business feel like you lost a limb? I fear I'm a lifer. For sure not on this end of the business forever, but in it in some way. Hell, maybe I'll write a novel where the central characters are WISPs. Probably also a great TV sitcom somewhere in this business. First frame of the pilot has Marlon riding his combine with his tie dye and wig with a tower in the background. Closing scene cuts to Stu leaving a limo with heavily tinted windows. As he steps out he takes a bit out of an apple. :) Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 3:28 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, Patrick Leary wrote: WHAT I REALLY took from your detailed post Tom and the posts of many others these past few days is that, quite simply, Alvarion is doing an inadequate job of showing our value to WISPs. While we often might yield the best total result (very time-saving ergo cost justifying installation and solid performance with top set'n'forget reliability), we are often the last thing tried by many WISPs. I think this is because there are a great many WISPs out there who use the following equation: COST = VALUE Instead of taking into account that cost is only a portion of the value proposition. I think that Alvarion's gear is (in many cases) the best solution for many things. I can't say that it is ALWAYS the best choice. I think that if you want to change the impression that WISPs have of Alvarion, you need to continue where you started a LONG time ago (before you left this market place) and help them understand that cost and value are NOT equivalent. I think, also, that you (as a manufacturer) need to understand that, while it is true that you offer a HUGE number of features, many people simply don't need all the stuff you offer. In those cases, the cost of your equipment is much too high for the value that they provide. I think that Tom's original post pointed this out very well. I don't know what the cost of the Alvarion gear Tom mentioned goes for, but even if we assume that the link was a $4000 cost. He spent 2 days installing and tweaking this link. What he ended up with is a perfect link with less than $1k in hard equipment cost. This includes the AP that he needs for that location. You have $3k to make up in value in that case. I know that SOME of that (maybe half) would be made up by saving him 1 day's time. Either way, the raw cost of the Alvarion solution would be still about $1k higher. Having said it this way, would Alvarion be able to offer $1k in value above what he already has in place now? Especially considering that he has what he already needs, I doubt that you can. Please don't take this the wrong way, because it is not intended as a bash. I am no longer a WISP, but I DO offer advice to WISPs on equipment selections and have (on several occasions) recommended Alvarion as a potential solution. I will continue to do this when I see it as an appropriate place in the network. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(191). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(43). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
RE: [WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion
On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, Patrick Leary wrote: I really appreciate the post Butch. Know that I have been reading (and re-reading) and soaking up all this stuff. I WILL convert on a number of these things (i.e. performing actions that directly address many of the issues presented). Looking forward to it. By the way, why are you not a WISP anymore? Doesn't being out of the business feel like you lost a limb? I fear I'm a lifer. For I've had to move on to bigger (and better?) things. I am still in the industry. I just do network consulting now. Almost half of my customers are WISPs. I had to make a choice and the consulting won. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion
Butch, I don't believe Tom spent 2 days installing the Alvarion linkBrad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:28 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, Patrick Leary wrote: WHAT I REALLY took from your detailed post Tom and the posts of many others these past few days is that, quite simply, Alvarion is doing an inadequate job of showing our value to WISPs. While we often might yield the best total result (very time-saving ergo cost justifying installation and solid performance with top set'n'forget reliability), we are often the last thing tried by many WISPs. I think this is because there are a great many WISPs out there who use the following equation: COST = VALUE Instead of taking into account that cost is only a portion of the value proposition. I think that Alvarion's gear is (in many cases) the best solution for many things. I can't say that it is ALWAYS the best choice. I think that if you want to change the impression that WISPs have of Alvarion, you need to continue where you started a LONG time ago (before you left this market place) and help them understand that cost and value are NOT equivalent. I think, also, that you (as a manufacturer) need to understand that, while it is true that you offer a HUGE number of features, many people simply don't need all the stuff you offer. In those cases, the cost of your equipment is much too high for the value that they provide. I think that Tom's original post pointed this out very well. I don't know what the cost of the Alvarion gear Tom mentioned goes for, but even if we assume that the link was a $4000 cost. He spent 2 days installing and tweaking this link. What he ended up with is a perfect link with less than $1k in hard equipment cost. This includes the AP that he needs for that location. You have $3k to make up in value in that case. I know that SOME of that (maybe half) would be made up by saving him 1 day's time. Either way, the raw cost of the Alvarion solution would be still about $1k higher. Having said it this way, would Alvarion be able to offer $1k in value above what he already has in place now? Especially considering that he has what he already needs, I doubt that you can. Please don't take this the wrong way, because it is not intended as a bash. I am no longer a WISP, but I DO offer advice to WISPs on equipment selections and have (on several occasions) recommended Alvarion as a potential solution. I will continue to do this when I see it as an appropriate place in the network. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(192). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(43). -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Where to test my new DS3
Title: Where to test my new DS3 Anyone know of a high cap BW tester? Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
Is there a Canopy mailing list that is active? Travis Microserv Mike Bushard, Jr wrote: Here is a crude picture of one of our areas. Aside from the one site everything works great. 18 Canopy 900 Sectors in a 6 mile radius. Plus 2 Vertical that are not in the image. Need less to say that town is pretty well smoked. Mike Bushard, Jr Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Anthony Will Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:12 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind you but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has traditionally understated there spec sheets. The GPS is what sets the timing for the AP's. The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all SM's registered to them. So how it works is that all AP's on channel 1 across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced to a AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same time. Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature set of the SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and AP to a BH or AP. The lag that is introduced by having to transmit that pulse info across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is the only time that distance can come into play. The application this is used for is for a cheap repeater system so that you dont have to have a GPS synchronizing device at every tower. /SM GPS --AP#1 / \ \SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#2 --SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#3 (this AP will be out of sync with AP#1) Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long for RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to propagate the timing signal. But if you put a GPS sync generating device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough timing with AP#2 that they all would get along. One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the area you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost of the GPS synchronizing items. Also again as for the distance statement. 6 AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced. believe me the messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good enough F/B ratio to not hear another AP 6" away from it. The two AP's that are back to back share the same channel so that when they transmit the SM's that are listening are as far away from each other as possible and thus reduce any chance of talking over each other. The largest benefit that GPS sync allows is to add additional capacity to area's by allowing for more towers to be in a smaller area without self interference. If long range rural deployments are the plan then GPS sync will only benefit you if you have competitors utilizing the same equipment and configuration in the area. So a Moto advantage cluster has about 84mb total (Classic Canopy would be 42mb) FTP bandwidth available to it. If more is needed you can place the towers with in a few miles and divide a cell into two micro cells each with a possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 168mb serviced to a given area. One last note, GPS timing will not allow for two separate clusters of the same type ( two 2.4ghz clusters) to be on the same tower. I can't write out whats in my head on this getting a little late in the night but if you wanted to I could talk to you over the phone and explain it. Send me an email to anthonyw (at) broadband-mn.com and Ill give you my cell phone number or give you a call. Anthony Will Broadband Corp. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, First, the spec sheet on Motorola's website says -86 RSSI. What happens when you have more than 3 towers outside of the 8 mile range of GPS sync? The 2.4ghz signal will definately travel that far, causing self-interference, correct? Travis Microserv Anthony Will wrote: Answers in-line Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, I'd like to go back to the specs on different radios just so I can compare for myself... Trango 2.4ghz: 5Mbps auto ratio 8 non-overlapping channels 10mhz spectrum per channel -90 Receive level 15 mile range (without a grid) External connector and dual-pol integrated antenna $879 AP (WISP price) $479 SU (WISP price) Canopy 2.4ghz (regular): 7Mbps fixed ratio 3 non-overlapping channels 20mhz spectrum per channel -86 Receive level 2.4 canopy has a -89 receive level 5 mile range (without a dish) $902 AP (reseller price online) $490 SU (reseller price online) I am guessing your quoting single prices here. Now that maybe viable for this discussion but realistically if a WISP is not financially able to purchase in 25 packs they likely
RE: [WISPA] 900 MHz Omni-Directional Antennas PRICE!?
I have measured several RB112s and they are all 1-1/4 thick from the mPCI on the back to the top of the capacitors. You may want to check your RB112s before choosing the Rootenna. Scott Reed Owner NewWays Wireless Networking Network Design, Installation and Administration www.nwwnet.net -- Original Message --- From: Frank [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 08:30:40 -0700 Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 MHz Omni-Directional Antennas PRICE!? Inside dimensions: 16.25 x 14.75 x 1 It's enough to put in a board with stansdoffs but not much more. From: Scott Reed Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 7:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 MHz Omni-Directional Antennas PRICE!? I know someone that has a 900MHz Rootenna. Disappointed that they are only about 1 deep inside. RB112 is just under 1-1/4. He made it fit, but not happy about the way it went together. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- End of Original Message --- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion
On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, Brad Larson wrote: Butch, I don't believe Tom spent 2 days installing the Alvarion linkBrad Nope. If I implied that, I apologize. He spent 2 days installing _A_ link. Part of the time was with Trango and the final (and current) link was StarOS. As I understand it, the Alvarion never got installed, or if it did, it was replaced with the StarOS for reasons which he detailed in the original post in this thread. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion
BLUSH. Thanks Patrick. Lifestyle has not elevated at all. That is why I moved to the sticks so I could avoid the pressures of keeping up with the other Yups. We live very simply. I bought a new Corolla last year. My '89 Landcruiser has a few more years left in her. One thing for sure is that we are known in the Valley. It makes it more difficult to get your mail (at the Post Office) and checkouts at the grocery store take longer. It is quite a change when the bank teller pumps you for a few answers while you are doing the banking. We are in the final stages of building 5 new towers. When they come on line we'll have an area that extends 150 km along the Valley floor and have almost perfect coverage to the people living along the Valley. This is how we perfect our code and I'm the guy they all call and talk to when it is not done right. We like reliable first, performance second and price third. It is fun and I was finally able to justify and buy a Bobcat. I have wanted one of those since forever. We are doing quite OK and having the most fun we have all ever had. It is fun to match the big boys almost feature for feature, especially when we are a 6 person company doing RD, building and shipping product and running the local WISP. Rarely are we bored. I can also say that Valemount has the highest population density of Linux kernel and driver hackers, with three of us in a town of 1,100. Lonnie On 9/27/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lonnie, I think you've done a great job with StarOS. You found a need and went after it with true entrepreneurial zeal. And you've done it all from that remote slice of mountain paradise. I bet your town is proud of you too, since you are a great local success story and a perfect example of the possibilities for smart people in small towns in a global marketplace. I suspect your lifestyle has been majorly elevated since you launched it and that's all well-earned! I remember you pre-StarOS! You got nothing but my respect. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 8:40 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion I agree that Tom's findings are accurate and mirror the real world, even to the conclusion -- they use our gear at the end of the exercise. It just means we'll have to work on our installation and troubleshooting tools. Lonnie On 9/27/06, Brad Larson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Tom, Your findings are in line with what many Alvarion operators also enjoy. Ease of installs and low operational costs. Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 3:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion The link: 4.5 miles, 1 Big fat building in the way, barely unable to clear the roof. Noise floor high. Limits: Noise Floor to high for PtMP Trango, based on obstruction. Stats: rssi -75 -78, noise -79 or worse on Horiz, Vert worse, RSSI almost 15db below calculations due to NLOS ) Solution: Install PTP to get more gain on AP side, Add OFDM to help with obstruction. Trango 5830 was invaluable to determine what was going on. It's built-in survey command was able to determine the noise floor on all channels accurately, and home in on the fact that the link was marginal because of gear that used a 20Mhz channel half way between Trango's channels. StarOS w/ 28 dbi PAcwireless on both sides- Got -55 -60 rssi. Good link, but it was not perfect, with 1 out of 20 large ping packets with high latency. It would regularly negotiate down to 36mbps or 18 mbps on one side. StarOS w/ 28db on one side, and 23dbi on other side- Got -60 -65 rssi. Excellent / Perfect link. Stayed constant at 54 mbps, with a very rare negotiation down to 48mbps or 36mbps. We believe this is becaue one of two reasons, reflections off the building right back at us, or the wide beamwidth of lower gain antenna to help use multi-path to optimize OFDM. We often felt 19-23 dbi antenna ideal for OFDM. This put us above the noise of most of the channels, and narrowed our beam compared to PtMP to reduce noise. OFDM clearly helped to not lose rssi due to the building obstruction, and gain was not received solely from higher gain of PTP antennas. The problem with STAROS-V3... We ran survey, and picked up ZERO interference or devices, but yet we know that there is lots of interfering devices out there. The Quality reading was pointless at either 100% or 13% with very little correlation to what the link actual performance was. Hard setting modulation, to 24mbps, left the link unusable, even when Quality of 100 was shown. When we put modulation on auto, every
RE: [WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion
Here is what he said (which led to my post about ours being the last choice to try, but it would been the most cost effective overall had we been able to get him to do it first. By the time he tried Alvarion, he had already spent 2 days getting the StarOS up using the Trango tools. Anyway, here is Tom's exact comments on the subject, unedited: We took the time to do a test with Alvarion B40 that we had on hand. The Alvarion picked up the noise in its survey. The Alvarion gave us accurate SNR readings that we could use to best plan the link configuration. And the link quality was perfect as well using the 28dbi and 23 dbi antennas. So had I used the Alvarion VL to begin with, I would have saved our company two days in labor, and would have had all the tools that I needed to install the link easilly the first time and to adapt in the future. Alvarion clearly would have been the winning choice. It gave me confidence that in future jobs IF I had to design a link in advance blind, I could order an Alvarion, and it likely would best be qualified to complete the job, Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 7:13 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Real World comparison of Trango-staros-Alvarion On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, Brad Larson wrote: Butch, I don't believe Tom spent 2 days installing the Alvarion linkBrad Nope. If I implied that, I apologize. He spent 2 days installing _A_ link. Part of the time was with Trango and the final (and current) link was StarOS. As I understand it, the Alvarion never got installed, or if it did, it was replaced with the StarOS for reasons which he detailed in the original post in this thread. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(192). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(43). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Where to test my new DS3
bittorrent ;) Gino A. Villarini wrote: Anyone know of a high cap BW tester? Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 !DSPAM:16,451b218c232361182711961! http://mail.shwisp.net/spam/dspam.cgi?template=historyuser=tetherowretrain=spamsignatureID=16,451b218c232361182711961 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Where to test my new DS3
Setup an iperf server. -Matt Gino A. Villarini wrote: Anyone know of a high cap BW tester? Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
part-15.org but I seem to remember that they removed access to the archives unless you are a member. bullit might have changed that since. Anthony Travis Johnson wrote: Is there a Canopy mailing list that is active? Travis Microserv Mike Bushard, Jr wrote: Here is a crude picture of one of our areas. Aside from the one site everything works great. 18 Canopy 900 Sectors in a 6 mile radius. Plus 2 Vertical that are not in the image. Need less to say that town is pretty well smoked. Mike Bushard, Jr Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Will Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:12 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind you but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has traditionally understated there spec sheets. The GPS is what sets the timing for the AP's. The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all SM's registered to them. So how it works is that all AP's on channel 1 across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced to a AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same time. Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature set of the SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and AP to a BH or AP. The lag that is introduced by having to transmit that pulse info across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is the only time that distance can come into play. The application this is used for is for a cheap repeater system so that you dont have to have a GPS synchronizing device at every tower. /SM GPS --AP#1 / \ \SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#2 --SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) --AP#3 (this AP will be out of sync with AP#1) Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long for RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to propagate the timing signal. But if you put a GPS sync generating device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough timing with AP#2 that they all would get along. One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the area you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost of the GPS synchronizing items. Also again as for the distance statement. 6 AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced. believe me the messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good enough F/B ratio to not hear another AP 6 away from it. The two AP's that are back to back share the same channel so that when they transmit the SM's that are listening are as far away from each other as possible and thus reduce any chance of talking over each other. The largest benefit that GPS sync allows is to add additional capacity to area's by allowing for more towers to be in a smaller area without self interference. If long range rural deployments are the plan then GPS sync will only benefit you if you have competitors utilizing the same equipment and configuration in the area. So a Moto advantage cluster has about 84mb total (Classic Canopy would be 42mb) FTP bandwidth available to it. If more is needed you can place the towers with in a few miles and divide a cell into two micro cells each with a possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 168mb serviced to a given area. One last note, GPS timing will not allow for two separate clusters of the same type ( two 2.4ghz clusters) to be on the same tower. I can't write out whats in my head on this getting a little late in the night but if you wanted to I could talk to you over the phone and explain it. Send me an email to anthonyw (at) broadband-mn.com and Ill give you my cell phone number or give you a call. Anthony Will Broadband Corp. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, First, the spec sheet on Motorola's website says -86 RSSI. What happens when you have more than 3 towers outside of the 8 mile range of GPS sync? The 2.4ghz signal will definately travel that far, causing self-interference, correct? Travis Microserv Anthony Will wrote: Answers in-line Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, I'd like to go back to the specs on different radios just so I can compare for myself... Trango 2.4ghz: 5Mbps auto ratio 8 non-overlapping channels 10mhz spectrum per channel -90 Receive level 15 mile range (without a grid) External connector and dual-pol integrated antenna $879 AP (WISP price) $479 SU (WISP price) Canopy 2.4ghz (regular): 7Mbps fixed ratio 3 non-overlapping channels 20mhz spectrum per channel -86 Receive level 2.4 canopy has a -89 receive level 5 mile range (without a dish) $902 AP (reseller price online) $490 SU (reseller price online) I am guessing your quoting single prices here. Now that maybe viable for
