Re: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga
It does, and giving double the capacity for same dollars is HUGE. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Brad Belton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 12:12 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga Agreed, but I think all the excitement was anticipating a new low price point that Trango was promising. Trango did come in a bit cheaper, but not cheap enough to really create any street parties. Basically the money is the same between DragonWave and Trango, but Trango gives you 100MB for DragonWave's 50MB price. Does that sound about right? Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 11:13 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga I will tell you, the most exciting news of the year for me, is clearly Trango's entry into the Licensed space. In no particular order, here's a quick list of other licensed radio manufacturers off the top of my head w/ licensed Part 101 products shipping today in the US NEC Alcatel Harris Stratex Nera Ceragon Dragonwave AdTran Unity Wireless (Wit-Com) Proxim Ericson Microwave Data Systems Microwave Networks Gigacom Dunno how it's that exciting -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.6/865 - Release Date: 6/24/2007 8:33 AM -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga vs Dragonwave
Charles, This post of yours, is getting into the meat and potatos of what we need to know to make a fair comparison. see responses in line .the FCC doesn't allow someone to license a 56 MHz channel, so to run at this date rate, you would have to license 2 adjacent channels (2x the license cost, and at ~ $3500 / link, it's nothing to sneeze at) To be accurate, I'm not convinved licensing two channels cost double $3500. Maybe that is what You charge, but not the FCC. 3. Under Part 101, it is technically illegal to just "squat" on the frequency by grabbing that extra channel...you have to use it or you lose it Other than cost, what prevents a WISP from licensing both channels? What method of proof is required, to show need and use to the FCC, to meet legal requirement? 5. From a comparison perspective, Horizon has a max capacity of 350 Mbps FD on a single FCC channel (so it's 350 vs 240) At what penalty, to acheive 350? For hypothetical example, 350 reducing range compared to 240 with Giga link? 6. From a raw performance perspective, TrangoLINK Giga requires 256 QAM modulation to get 240 Mb FD...Horizon does 270 Mb FD with 128 QAM; the difference in receive sensitivity between 128 QAM to 256 QAM can be anywhere from 5-10 dB How is this possible, that Horizon can acheive BOTH lower modulation and smaller channel size, while maintaining higher throughput? Its hard to believe. How are they beating physics? 7. High Power -- not sure about the specs of the TrangoLINK Giga, but having a High Power variant gives Horizon an extra 7 dB worth of output power...depending on the frequency, that can be almost 2' worth of antenna Definately a plus, for those longer range links, and landlords finicky on antenna size limits. As you state, Trango's output power needs defining, to know if an advantage. 10. Dragonwave is a company that is focused exclusively and is committed to backhaul; it also has a product roadmaps for AirPair that allow for future upgradability (AirPair has a roadmap that will get it to 1 GB+ in the future) Doesn't the Trango Gigalink also have a migration path to 600mbps? With all said, the competitive analisys is not just against other Licensed manufacturers. The competition is Gigabit MW gear. Best of Class MW gear can reliably achieve 2 mile in high rain regions at 4- 9s, with 2 ft parabolics. The purpose of Licensed is to gain farther distances at capacities as close to GB as possible, and lower cost. So the challenge is how far can manufacturer's go in licensed, at Highest speeds? For apples to apples comparison, with 2 ft dishes on both ends, w/ 18Ghz, how far can we go to deliver 4- 9's reliabilty or better, at peak speed (240mbps or higher) with the various manufacturers? How many roof top leases can I by pass, to enable me to build out my backbone network in a region, using these manufacturers? What can Horizon accomplish? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga
Tom: I recall providing wireless bachauls to a big utilty. Even though they are a billion dollar utility, I still provided "technical training" and "lunch" for all their communiation technicians. It was much appreciated by the client. I also recall providing backhaul training to my WISP. I also provided a nice conference room, lunch, etc. The WISP was VERY appreciated. So you make some very good points about building busines relationships. However, the other challenge however is that some of my customers asked me to be careful in providing luxurious lunches/training etc because of their company policy to not accept gifts or anything free. So it really depends on the circumstance. But good points. Felix Wireless Practioner --- Tom DeReggi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > At this time, I'm not saying whether I'm choosing > Dragonwave or Trango, or > both. > > But I will say there are other factors to consider > in favor of choosing > Trango. > Dealing with a Manufacturer that one has a history > with, or vice versa. > Once a WISP builds credabilty up with a > manufacturer, its hard to walk away > from thatrelationship. > Loyalty to manufacturer and vice versa has its > advantages. > If I ask Trango to send me a GigaLink tommorrow > (provided it was a released > product available to ship), it would be here in 48 > hours on my door step. > If I asked Dragonwave to send me a Horizon > tommorrow, they'd send me a > credit app, and the address to wire funds to. > What happens if one of these things fail in teh > field in a given month, and > cash flow was temporarilly depleated, would I get a > replacement radio > overnighted or another Credit app sent over to fill > out? > Thats just one of many example, a strong vendor > relationship could offer.. > I know the name of the majority of Trango's staff, > and the majority of them > kow my name. > That type of relationship is priceless. > Its not just about the technical comparison. > Its stuff like the Trango advisory summits, where > they allocated the > majority of core relevent staff to attend an event, > and paid for relevent > WISPs to travel and come educate them on our needs. > These are not just sales siminars like Road Shows. > They paid for our lobby > effort to them, NOT OUR EXPENSE! That is huge. > These things go along way. > > I'm not saying that the same relationship can't be > developed with a company > like Dragonwave (new to us), or for that matter CTI > (a company we know well, > and knows us well). > I'm just saying, its starting from ground zero, with > a new manufacturer. > Maybe a bridge that CTI already has constructed, to > fill the gap. > > Tom DeReggi > RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc > IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband > > > - Original Message - > From: "Charles Wu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "WISPA General List" > Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 11:59 PM > Subject: RE: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga > > > >That statement, really depends on the price that is > relased, and the > volume the buyer is considering, as well as their > time frame. > >If someone is planning on dropping 1/4-1/2 million > on Licensed gear in > a year, and the price is really good, allowing the > provider to get 30% > more links > >up for the same dollar, its not much of a risk > being the first, > considering the future potential reward. > > I would argue that there is ALWAYS MASSIVE risk of > being first...and > spending 1/4 -> 1/2 only MAGNIFIES that risk > > There are people who spent $$$ millions on Cisco > OFDM Wireless stuff > back in the mid-late 90s...that never worked > > There are people who spent $$$ millions on Adaptive > Broadband stuff back > in the late 90s...it didn't work for 5 years, and > they finally only got > it working b/c there was so much bankrupt inventory > at $0 cost that > writing software was almost a moot point > > >If the WISP's timeline is also spread out over the > year, they have > plenty of time to wait for bug fixes, before the > bulk of the > deployments. > > I personally would rather spend $12k on a link that > WORKS TODAY vs. > spending $10k on a link that MIGHT WORK SOMEDAY > > That said, the TrangoLINK Giga is about the same > price as Horizon, and > doesn't have anywhere near the throughput upgrade > path that Horizon has > (see my earlier email about channel size) > > So, the better question to ask, would be, given a > choice between 2 > providers (who are both incidentally about the same > size), would I > rather > > 1. Spend $10k on a backhaul THAT WILL DEFINITELY > WORK with a small > company that has 5 years of building licensed > backhauls and is 100% > committed to building licensed backhauls today and > tomorrow > > Or > > 2. Spend $10 on a backhaul THAT MIGHT WORK IN 6-12 > MONTHS with a small > company that has just released its first backhaul > line but also still > needs to support a point-to-multipoint line, a > wireless video > surveillance line, a mesh line, etc > > -Charles
Re: [WISPA] Outsource Tech Support
Mark: I have worked with http://www.wams.com/ - Wide Area Management Services based here in the Silicon Valley. They provide 24/7 Hour mission critical nettwork management services. I've been to their NOC. What are you trying to do and problems your trying to solve? Felix --- Mark McElvy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have had a request to replace the wireless system > in a hotel. There > current provider gives them end-user support. A > while back someone > mentioned an offering for end user support, anyone > know of such > services? > > > > Mark McElvy > > > > > > -- > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga
Agreed, but I think all the excitement was anticipating a new low price point that Trango was promising. Trango did come in a bit cheaper, but not cheap enough to really create any street parties. Basically the money is the same between DragonWave and Trango, but Trango gives you 100MB for DragonWave's 50MB price. Does that sound about right? Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 11:13 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga >I will tell you, the most exciting news of the year for me, is clearly Trango's entry into the Licensed space. In no particular order, here's a quick list of other licensed radio manufacturers off the top of my head w/ licensed Part 101 products shipping today in the US NEC Alcatel Harris Stratex Nera Ceragon Dragonwave AdTran Unity Wireless (Wit-Com) Proxim Ericson Microwave Data Systems Microwave Networks Gigacom Dunno how it's that exciting -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga
That was probably for Rev3 gear. I believe that deal is no longer available, but I could be wrong. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 11:11 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga I have a price quote for a Dragonwave 18ghz licensed link from 6 months ago for that price range. ;) Travis Microserv Tom DeReggi wrote: > Because until two months ago, there wasn't a licensed radio for > $10K-$12K. > Its price competition from companies like Trango, that forces other > manufacturers to drop their prices also. > Its the message that Licensed is not jsut for carriers anymore, as > soon as manufacturers that historically targeted WISPs, start making a > product for WISPs. > The technology has been available for years, why not the lower costs > until now? > > With that said, I recognize that Dragonwave also is a key competitor > driving the price down. > > Tom DeReggi > RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc > IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband > > > - Original Message - From: "Charles Wu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "WISPA General List" > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 12:12 AM > Subject: RE: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga > > >> I will tell you, the most exciting news of the year for me, is clearly > Trango's entry into the Licensed space. > > In no particular order, here's a quick list of other licensed radio > manufacturers off the top of my head w/ licensed Part 101 products > shipping today in the US > > NEC > Alcatel > Harris Stratex > Nera > Ceragon > Dragonwave > AdTran > Unity Wireless (Wit-Com) > Proxim > Ericson > Microwave Data Systems > Microwave Networks > Gigacom > > Dunno how it's that exciting > > -Charles > > --- > WiNOG Wireless Roadshows > Coming to a City Near You > http://www.winog.com > -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga
I have a price quote for a Dragonwave 18ghz licensed link from 6 months ago for that price range. ;) Travis Microserv Tom DeReggi wrote: Because until two months ago, there wasn't a licensed radio for $10K-$12K. Its price competition from companies like Trango, that forces other manufacturers to drop their prices also. Its the message that Licensed is not jsut for carriers anymore, as soon as manufacturers that historically targeted WISPs, start making a product for WISPs. The technology has been available for years, why not the lower costs until now? With that said, I recognize that Dragonwave also is a key competitor driving the price down. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Charles Wu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 12:12 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga I will tell you, the most exciting news of the year for me, is clearly Trango's entry into the Licensed space. In no particular order, here's a quick list of other licensed radio manufacturers off the top of my head w/ licensed Part 101 products shipping today in the US NEC Alcatel Harris Stratex Nera Ceragon Dragonwave AdTran Unity Wireless (Wit-Com) Proxim Ericson Microwave Data Systems Microwave Networks Gigacom Dunno how it's that exciting -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga
At this time, I'm not saying whether I'm choosing Dragonwave or Trango, or both. But I will say there are other factors to consider in favor of choosing Trango. Dealing with a Manufacturer that one has a history with, or vice versa. Once a WISP builds credabilty up with a manufacturer, its hard to walk away from thatrelationship. Loyalty to manufacturer and vice versa has its advantages. If I ask Trango to send me a GigaLink tommorrow (provided it was a released product available to ship), it would be here in 48 hours on my door step. If I asked Dragonwave to send me a Horizon tommorrow, they'd send me a credit app, and the address to wire funds to. What happens if one of these things fail in teh field in a given month, and cash flow was temporarilly depleated, would I get a replacement radio overnighted or another Credit app sent over to fill out? Thats just one of many example, a strong vendor relationship could offer.. I know the name of the majority of Trango's staff, and the majority of them kow my name. That type of relationship is priceless. Its not just about the technical comparison. Its stuff like the Trango advisory summits, where they allocated the majority of core relevent staff to attend an event, and paid for relevent WISPs to travel and come educate them on our needs. These are not just sales siminars like Road Shows. They paid for our lobby effort to them, NOT OUR EXPENSE! That is huge. These things go along way. I'm not saying that the same relationship can't be developed with a company like Dragonwave (new to us), or for that matter CTI (a company we know well, and knows us well). I'm just saying, its starting from ground zero, with a new manufacturer. Maybe a bridge that CTI already has constructed, to fill the gap. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Charles Wu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 11:59 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga That statement, really depends on the price that is relased, and the volume the buyer is considering, as well as their time frame. If someone is planning on dropping 1/4-1/2 million on Licensed gear in a year, and the price is really good, allowing the provider to get 30% more links up for the same dollar, its not much of a risk being the first, considering the future potential reward. I would argue that there is ALWAYS MASSIVE risk of being first...and spending 1/4 -> 1/2 only MAGNIFIES that risk There are people who spent $$$ millions on Cisco OFDM Wireless stuff back in the mid-late 90s...that never worked There are people who spent $$$ millions on Adaptive Broadband stuff back in the late 90s...it didn't work for 5 years, and they finally only got it working b/c there was so much bankrupt inventory at $0 cost that writing software was almost a moot point If the WISP's timeline is also spread out over the year, they have plenty of time to wait for bug fixes, before the bulk of the deployments. I personally would rather spend $12k on a link that WORKS TODAY vs. spending $10k on a link that MIGHT WORK SOMEDAY That said, the TrangoLINK Giga is about the same price as Horizon, and doesn't have anywhere near the throughput upgrade path that Horizon has (see my earlier email about channel size) So, the better question to ask, would be, given a choice between 2 providers (who are both incidentally about the same size), would I rather 1. Spend $10k on a backhaul THAT WILL DEFINITELY WORK with a small company that has 5 years of building licensed backhauls and is 100% committed to building licensed backhauls today and tomorrow Or 2. Spend $10 on a backhaul THAT MIGHT WORK IN 6-12 MONTHS with a small company that has just released its first backhaul line but also still needs to support a point-to-multipoint line, a wireless video surveillance line, a mesh line, etc -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.6/865 - Release Date: 6/24/2007 8:33 AM -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga
Because until two months ago, there wasn't a licensed radio for $10K-$12K. Its price competition from companies like Trango, that forces other manufacturers to drop their prices also. Its the message that Licensed is not jsut for carriers anymore, as soon as manufacturers that historically targeted WISPs, start making a product for WISPs. The technology has been available for years, why not the lower costs until now? With that said, I recognize that Dragonwave also is a key competitor driving the price down. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Charles Wu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 12:12 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] TrangoLINK Giga I will tell you, the most exciting news of the year for me, is clearly Trango's entry into the Licensed space. In no particular order, here's a quick list of other licensed radio manufacturers off the top of my head w/ licensed Part 101 products shipping today in the US NEC Alcatel Harris Stratex Nera Ceragon Dragonwave AdTran Unity Wireless (Wit-Com) Proxim Ericson Microwave Data Systems Microwave Networks Gigacom Dunno how it's that exciting -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.6/865 - Release Date: 6/24/2007 8:33 AM -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
