Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

[Tom DeReggi]

Wow, what a pleasant surprise. Glad to hear from you!

Thinkin of gettin back into WISP stuff... What are you crazy :-)
Are you a glutton for punishment :-)

No seriously, this is still an existing industry, just a lot of new 
competitions and stragegies necessary to survive.


On the 900 Mesh... The first thing to realize is that no business model is 
predictable and guaranteed re-createable  in the 900Mhz world.
Expecially not In-Town.  Don't get me wrong, we use 900Mhz all the time, its 
a savior. Its jsut near impossible to predict in advance where it will work, 
due to noise in the environment.  A couple over zealous Paging companies and 
Scada guys in town can bring the noise floor down to -50dn making any 900Mhz 
system unusable, and rarely OFDM product can get large enough SNR to get 
higher speeds in suburbia.


But in those Tree (foliage) rick environments, 900Mhz is golden. And with 
new Multi-Port Mainboards, taking a chance to add a 900Mhz relay option in 
an existing system is just a bit over $100 more or so.


As for MESH, I'm not a fan of any of the MESH software out there.  I still 
do everything static or with common well know routing protocols. But a value 
proposition that is undenyable are systems that enable multiple radio cards 
for very little money, because it removes the cost of an AP to relay service 
on.

Its now cost effective to make a subscriber a broadcaster.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Allen Marsalis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 12:16 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks


I was a WISP in the late 90s and early 00s. Some of you may know me.  It's 
good to see many familiar faces still here.  In recent years, I have 
pursued new interests but I keep thinking back on my experiences as a WISP. 
I had a lot of good times back then.  I'm thinking about creeping back into 
the WISP business.


After I sold in 2004, I followed a new trend in wireless in the press 
called "muni wireless" promoted by manufacturers such as Strix and Tropos. 
This concept has taken some major blows in the press this month:


http://wifinetnews.com/archives/007869.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20521155/
http://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?ne...2a10&view=news
http://www.unstrung.com/document.asp...ng_sitedefault
http://www.alleyinsider.com/2007/08/...thlink-el.html
http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/6120

This hits close to home because the company who bought my WISP (ShreveNet) 
boasted being the largest WISP with the largest muni WIFI network in the 
nation in Tempe AZ (NeoReach aka Kite aka MobilePro) which sold these 
properties recently to Gobility.  (Big Yawn)..


http://www.bbwexchange.com/wireless_isp/

I'm certainly am not posting this thread to defend or even discuss the 
somewhat failed muni wireless concept.  Some say it was a failure because 
of the model rather than technology, caused by giving away free service to 
the anchor tenant (the city) and so forth.  Whatever... I couldn't care 
less about the past or Earthlink or Google, or MobilePro or huge muni wifi 
networks.


However I am fascinated by the mesh technology in general, especially 
after witnessing the old Nokia "collapsible" bridged mesh networks of the 
90s.  LOL, a lot has changed since then.  I often wonder how Dave Peterson 
and Ultramesh/locustworld turned out.  Once upon a time, he sold product 
to a WISP near me in Vivian LA to build the first mesh network in the US. 
He ended up with some heavy debt.  Also I knew of a WISP in Leesville LA 
using Wave Wireless (Speedcom) mesh gear with pretty good technical 
results, that is, for a single radio system.  I'm thinking more along the 
lines of multiple radio systems.


I am brainstorming a new WISP model and I am seeking feedback and advice. 
The concept goes something like this.  The muni network model touted in 
the press had many flaws as I see it.  Coming into an urban market after 
DSL and Cable has to be a steep uphill climb. Yet in 2007 there are still 
rural areas with no high speed solution in sight, particularly in the 
wooded Southeast where the old wireless models don't always work.  I 
posted the following statistics to the wireless boards nearly a decade ago 
as the results of my first 2.4GHz network.


In my area (Shreveport LA) 65 out of 100 business surveys came back 
positive (35 negative) for LOS. This was made possible by multistory 
buildings and large parking lots (lack of trees) Yet for residential 
service, only 5 came back positive while 95 came back negative.  Clearly 
there is a tree issue in many residential parts of the country.  This is 
the market that has few if any

Re: [WISPA] redline

[Tom DeReggi]

He is clearly doing it illegally. No way it can be done with legal EIRP.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Travis Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] redline


I guess that's my question... I have a competitor that is shooting 30 miles 
with a Redline 2ft panel pair running 5.4ghz. Even using only 10mhz of 
spectrum, that's only a -83 signal. Just wondering if he's turned up the 
power somehow to make that shot.


Travis
Microserv

Mike Hammett wrote:

I'd imagine the EIRP is still 30.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - From: "Travis Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 3:52 PM
Subject: [WISPA] redline



Hi,

Does anyone know off the top of their head the maximum power output of 
the Redline 5.4ghz product? And the receive sensitivity levels?


Travis
Microserv



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Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent

[George Rogato]

I've talked to a few who use cogent and love the price and the service.

I am on cogent, but only because I drilled down my upstream fiber 
carrier for price and I noticed they swapped me over from level3 to cogent.


I have not had any issues what so ever from them.


Faisal Imtiaz wrote:

They are the "Heidi Fleiss" of the industry Pretty much all the big boys
deal with them, but no one likes them or wants to talk about them.

My understanding is that they have a very decent network, as long as your
traffic does not need to cross their network to another provider. (Their
peering points are greatly overloaded -:))

But, because they have a very large network, carrying a lot of traffic, so
as to keep the end users happy, the only way to get decent performance is to
connect directly to them (Cogent).

You may be surprised as to how much traffic from Canada comes to US on
Cogent.

These are my two cents worth.


Faisal Imtiaz

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 7:58 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent

Is anyone using Cogent as a bandwidth provider?  Pros and cons?

Matt



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RE: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent

[Faisal Imtiaz]

They are the "Heidi Fleiss" of the industry Pretty much all the big boys
deal with them, but no one likes them or wants to talk about them.

My understanding is that they have a very decent network, as long as your
traffic does not need to cross their network to another provider. (Their
peering points are greatly overloaded -:))

But, because they have a very large network, carrying a lot of traffic, so
as to keep the end users happy, the only way to get decent performance is to
connect directly to them (Cogent).

You may be surprised as to how much traffic from Canada comes to US on
Cogent.

These are my two cents worth.


Faisal Imtiaz

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 7:58 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent

Is anyone using Cogent as a bandwidth provider?  Pros and cons?

Matt



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Re: [WISPA] Alternate transport providers, Cogent

[Matt]

Is anyone using Cogent as a bandwidth provider?  Pros and cons?

Matt


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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

[Forrest W. Christian]

Matt Liotta wrote:
I don't know the area, but 8-10 hops sounds high to me as that is only 
20-25 miles a hop.
Last I checked, 20-25 miles/hop is about as far as you can go to drag 
OC3 level service in a reliable fashion, other than maybe using very 
huge dishes on 6Ghz.   I would have to do the link math.
Regardless, your ~6K/month figure would go away after 3 years using 
your numbers dropping your total outlay to 2k/month getting you to 
$13/meg. 
Nope, after 3 years, you get to replace the equipment since either you 
need more bandwidth or something else has changed. :( 

I think I mentioned this in my other reply...   200 miles is how far I 
have to go to to be able to share with another largish provider (which 
was suggested by another person on the list) which may be able to 
combine with to get a bulk purchase.  I expect the cheapest I could buy 
in Idaho Falls would be on par with what I can get here...   I suspect 
there's another 200 mile link to get to the $20/meg bandwidth.


The other piece of this is logistics...  This path crosses the 
continental divide once, and gets "close" at least 2 other times (not 
technically across the divide but on the ridgeline which is the 
divide).  I don't like to drive on the *Intererstate* for about 4 (or 
more) months out of the year down this path...  I can only imagine 
trying to maintain this link.   4 Hours of interstate driving in good 
weather from end-to-end.  *Then* you get to figure out how to get to 
some of these sites.  No thank you.


The real point of this was to refute the suggestion was that I could 
somehow magically join up with others to get a bulk purchase going and 
get my price down to $20/meg.   I've actually priced bandwidth out to 
the OC-12 pricing here in the local area with either Global Crossing, or 
360 Networks, and am currently working on pricing with Sprint if I drag 
fiber to their switch facility here in town.  Believe me, it isn't 
$20/meg even at the OC-12 level.   The transport costs something, and 
these providers have to include that cost in their pricing. 

There are two things that amaze me:  1) Providers in or near the big 
cities which assume that everyone can get bandwidth for $20/meg or less 
if they just buy enough, since that is the economics there so it must be 
everywhere and 2) Small providers which are paying $5-600/T1 (with a 
half-dozen T's) when they could add a site or two to get over the hill 
to the largest nearby town where bandwidth is under $100/meg. 

This is all a game of where can you get the bandwidth at a given cost 
and how much will it cost to get it to you.  Not everyone can find 
$20/meg bandwith.   I've noticed that there are 3 main tiers today...  
$20/meg in the biggest of cities where there is one or more major 
peering points/exchanges and where almost every provider has a 
presence,  $50-75/meg in most cities with a population of the metro bowl 
of around 50K and larger, and $600/T1 in the rest of the US.  There is 
also the fourth tier which is where there is a independent ILEC who 
wants to screw you for all it is worth since you are the competition, 
which I won't even venture into.If you live in the $600/T1 tier, you 
should be thinking about where the $50-75/meg (or $20/meg) bandwidth is  
and how to get there, and how much it will cost.  This goes equally well 
for people in my category where we are paying $50-75/meg for 
bandwidth.   Yes, smallish ISP's should be looking at friendly neighbors 
to leverage paths and/or purchasing power.  And, you shouldn't restrict 
yourself to wireless technologies... sometimes you can find a source for 
a PtP or frame relay/ATM DS3 to the larger cities for a screaming 
deal.   But, either making the assumption that $75/meg isn't a good 
price for a given WISP, or that $600/T1 is the best that you can do 
since that is the cheapest you can find it delivered (without 
investigating the options) both require some re-thinking.


-forrest


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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

[Forrest W. Christian]

Clint Ricker wrote:

Not to mention that you can possibly use these intermediate hops as
pops for future expansion
  
Not these hops...  Generally, they are on the tops of hills that can't 
see anything other than the next hill.


The other point I failed to mention, is that I suspect that I won't 
*just* have to go to Idaho Falls  I would suspect that the cheapest 
bandwidth I can buy in Idaho Falls isn't much cheaper than I am buying here.


-forrest



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[WISPA] OT: Thanks re the "WISP tester" request

[Patrick Leary]

We appreciate the good response folks. I am trying to get back with
everyone. We will be reviewing all the good ideas and will select a
handful. Hopefully I can notify that group later this week and we can go
deeper into the conversation. Again, thank you everyone; it is a great
start.

Look for a paid formal announcement with details on the new WISP line on
this list in the near term.

Sincerely,

Patrick Leary
AVP, Market Development
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Visit Alvarion at WiMAX World
Chicago, September 25-27
Booth #409





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RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

[Allen Marsalis]

At 08:21 AM 9/11/2007, Jeff Broadwick wrote:

Nah, he uses it to hide the Romulan Ale when he goes to movies and ball
games.  :-)


LOL, I haven't had any Romulan Ale in a while.   I needed a laugh.

Remember this one?  "I used to have a life, now I have customers"

I might add, "Now I have no customers, so when do I get my life back?"  :)

Allen




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Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

[Allen Marsalis]

For my daughter as a night shirt.  Anytime I receive an XL, I give to 
her.  If its a medium, then I get to keep it!


Allen

At 07:12 AM 9/11/2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

XXL  What are you going to do with it??  Make a tent  :-)


Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-Original Message-
From: Allen Marsalis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 21:30:01
To:WISPA General List 
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks


I was only about a half year off.  Not bad for an old man.  :)   I'm
not sure I remember your youngest though.  A belated congratulations
to you!  I know you are proud of them both.  My son is now a freshman
in high school and has outgrown me already.  Homecoming is this
Saturday.  Wow how time flies. My daughter is 9 and in a few more
years, she might be taller than me as well..

Yeah got one of those old BreezeCom shirts in XXL?  That is, if they
aren't collectors items by now... ;)

Allen




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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

[Clint Ricker]

Not to mention that you can possibly use these intermediate hops as
pops for future expansion


On 9/11/07, Matt Liotta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Forrest W. Christian wrote:
> > Knowing what I know about the territory out here is that when Microserv
> > said (paraphrasing) "200 miles is the cheap bandwidth", they probably
> > mean Salt Lake City.   It's 200 miles from us to him, and just guessing,
> > there would probably be around 8-10 hops to get to him, if we got the
> > *right* sites.  At easily $200/month per site - since these are prime
> > sites, this adds $2K of backhaul just go get to Idaho Falls.  Then you
> > have to add the 10 hops @20K/hop worth of radios (200K), and pay for
> > them over 36 months (~6K/month), so doing this you end up paying
> > 8K/month for loop, which on a OC3 would equate to $51/meg of loop
> > costs.   That's more than I'm paying for bits delivered *here*.
> >
> I don't know the area, but 8-10 hops sounds high to me as that is only
> 20-25 miles a hop. Regardless, your ~6K/month figure would go away after
> 3 years using your numbers dropping your total outlay to 2k/month
> getting you to $13/meg. Essentially, the difference between buying and
> renting. Additionally, you may be able to use those additional sites to
> expand your market.
>
> Again, Montana is tough; I was just using you as example for others who
> aren't in such a tough position.
>
> -Matt
> 
>
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RE: [WISPA] Google Coverage Map WAS: You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

[Rick Harnish]

Google Earth Plus

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 9:07 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Google Coverage Map WAS: You're all going to lose ( I
hope not)

How did you make that coverage map in Google.  First I've seen like that and

I like it.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Forrest W. Christian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 4:22 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)


> Clint Ricker wrote:
>> Not to be overly provocative here, but why are you paying $60/meg?
> I'd be more than happy to pay less.   Please let me know where I can buy a

> DS3 or OC3 delivered somewhere within my footprint or at most only a 
> couple of radio hops away for less than the $50-75 I'm paying now (right 
> now I have two full DS3's - one is around $50/meg and the other is around 
> $75/meg).
>
> If you're domain is correctly registered, you're ~50 miles from Atlanta. 
> I'm ~400-600  miles from Salt Lake City, Seattle, or  Denver - take your 
> pick.   I'm *lucky* to get it at $50/meg.   If I was paying loop, it would

> be more.
> -forrest
>


>
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RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

[Jeff Broadwick]

Nah, he uses it to hide the Romulan Ale when he goes to movies and ball
games.  :-) 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 8:12 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

XXL  What are you going to do with it??  Make a tent  :-)


Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-Original Message-
From: Allen Marsalis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 21:30:01
To:WISPA General List 
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks


I was only about a half year off.  Not bad for an old man.  :)   I'm 
not sure I remember your youngest though.  A belated congratulations 
to you!  I know you are proud of them both.  My son is now a freshman 
in high school and has outgrown me already.  Homecoming is this 
Saturday.  Wow how time flies. My daughter is 9 and in a few more 
years, she might be taller than me as well..

Yeah got one of those old BreezeCom shirts in XXL?  That is, if they 
aren't collectors items by now... ;)

Allen


At 08:32 PM 9/10/2007, Patrick Leary wrote:
>LOL. My girls are 6.5 and 4 now. They don't care much what the shirt
>says so long as it has something sparkly on it. :)  And I have plenty of
>old BreezeCOM shirts still.
>
>
>Patrick




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[WISPA] Alternate transport providers

[Mike Hammett]

http://www.indatelgroup.org/

I haven't had any experience with these people, but they should be able to lend 
a hand in getting you to lower priced bandwidth areas.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



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Re: [WISPA] Google Coverage Map WAS: You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

[Mike Hammett]

How did you make that coverage map in Google.  First I've seen like that and 
I like it.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Forrest W. Christian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 4:22 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)



Clint Ricker wrote:

Not to be overly provocative here, but why are you paying $60/meg?
I'd be more than happy to pay less.   Please let me know where I can buy a 
DS3 or OC3 delivered somewhere within my footprint or at most only a 
couple of radio hops away for less than the $50-75 I'm paying now (right 
now I have two full DS3's - one is around $50/meg and the other is around 
$75/meg).


If you're domain is correctly registered, you're ~50 miles from Atlanta. 
I'm ~400-600  miles from Salt Lake City, Seattle, or  Denver - take your 
pick.   I'm *lucky* to get it at $50/meg.   If I was paying loop, it would 
be more.

-forrest


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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

[Matt Liotta]

Forrest W. Christian wrote:
Knowing what I know about the territory out here is that when Microserv 
said (paraphrasing) "200 miles is the cheap bandwidth", they probably 
mean Salt Lake City.   It's 200 miles from us to him, and just guessing, 
there would probably be around 8-10 hops to get to him, if we got the 
*right* sites.  At easily $200/month per site - since these are prime 
sites, this adds $2K of backhaul just go get to Idaho Falls.  Then you 
have to add the 10 hops @20K/hop worth of radios (200K), and pay for 
them over 36 months (~6K/month), so doing this you end up paying 
8K/month for loop, which on a OC3 would equate to $51/meg of loop 
costs.   That's more than I'm paying for bits delivered *here*.


I don't know the area, but 8-10 hops sounds high to me as that is only 
20-25 miles a hop. Regardless, your ~6K/month figure would go away after 
3 years using your numbers dropping your total outlay to 2k/month 
getting you to $13/meg. Essentially, the difference between buying and 
renting. Additionally, you may be able to use those additional sites to 
expand your market.


Again, Montana is tough; I was just using you as example for others who 
aren't in such a tough position.


-Matt


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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

[Mike Hammett]

Actually, Forrest is in a great position.  He's getting his service from 360 
Networks and Global Crossing, both of which have POPs in his coverage area.


For further cost savings, ideas include (for everyone, really):
Becoming a CLEC to save on the loops
Building your wireless network to their POP facility to haul Ethernet (or 
TDM if you must) back to your network


If their POP is in the ILEC CO, then you'll have to investigate if becoming 
a CLEC and putting up antenna is possible.


There are many ways to save on the IP pricing, including the many switchless 
resellers.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Matt Liotta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 7:30 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)



Forrest W. Christian wrote:

Clint Ricker wrote:

Not to be overly provocative here, but why are you paying $60/meg?
I'd be more than happy to pay less.   Please let me know where I can buy 
a DS3 or OC3 delivered somewhere within my footprint or at most only a 
couple of radio hops away for less than the $50-75 I'm paying now (right 
now I have two full DS3's - one is around $50/meg and the other is around 
$75/meg).


If you're domain is correctly registered, you're ~50 miles from Atlanta. 
I'm ~400-600  miles from Salt Lake City, Seattle, or  Denver - take your 
pick.   I'm *lucky* to get it at $50/meg.   If I was paying loop, it 
would be more.
Montana is tough and you probably know you already have the best deal 
going from a traditional approach. I don't know if a non-traditional 
approach would work either, but here is an idea anyway.


You are correct that doing radio hops to the closest major market is a 
good way to go, but in your case the mileage is just too high. How far 
away are you from Microserve, which is in Idaho. I believe they serve 
Boise, which probably has cheaper bandwidth. Is it feasible to backhaul 
your network to theirs? In areas with mountains like yours you can go a 
long way with 5.8/6Ghz.


-Matt


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

[Forrest W. Christian]

Matt Liotta wrote:
You are correct that doing radio hops to the closest major market is a 
good way to go, but in your case the mileage is just too high. How far 
away are you from Microserve, which is in Idaho. I believe they serve 
Boise, which probably has cheaper bandwidth.
Knowing what I know about the territory out here is that when Microserv 
said (paraphrasing) "200 miles is the cheap bandwidth", they probably 
mean Salt Lake City.   It's 200 miles from us to him, and just guessing, 
there would probably be around 8-10 hops to get to him, if we got the 
*right* sites.  At easily $200/month per site - since these are prime 
sites, this adds $2K of backhaul just go get to Idaho Falls.  Then you 
have to add the 10 hops @20K/hop worth of radios (200K), and pay for 
them over 36 months (~6K/month), so doing this you end up paying 
8K/month for loop, which on a OC3 would equate to $51/meg of loop 
costs.   That's more than I'm paying for bits delivered *here*.


The point I was making is that $20/meg isn't available to everyone.   
Loops are still the expensive part of the whole thing.  $50-75 seems to 
be the sweet spot for modestly populated "rural" areas, whether that's 
Helena, MT, or Idaho Falls, ID, or Florence, OR.   And I would venture 
that you *should* be able to find $75/meg bandwidth within a couple of 
radio hops from about anywhere in the country (note I said *about*).  


-forrest


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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

[Clint Ricker]

I realize ideas like this aren't a one-size fits all.  Geography,
topography, and so forth sometimes makes this uneconomical.

I will say, though, that usually independent ISPs (non-Wisps) that
have gone down this route, whether for server aggregation, bandwidth
aggregation, DSL aggregation, helpdesk aggregation, or whatever
usually are happy with the results as it often makes a marginal
business case viable.

There are other advantages as well to working aggressively with each
other and peering with each other.  Most of the ones above are
cost-saving measures, which I'm not always a fan off--independent ISPs
sometimes are too fanatacal about cutting costs and not fanatacal
enough about growth...

Still, there are other advantages.  As some/most of you know (and
already do this sort of thing), your most profitable and best
businesses are usually more established businesses with multiple
locations.  A lot of you are limited by aggressively targetting these
businesses because you have a limited geographical area...and most of
these business prefer having a single vendor for this sort of stuff.
The more you make deals with each other in terms of being able to go
between the networks, the more you can do this sort of thing.

In aggregate, Independent ISPs have quite an impressive footprint, and
can offer an "on-net" (as a whole) offering to larger business clients
that is rivals many of the national guys.

-Clint Ricker
Kentnis Technologies






On 9/11/07, Matt Liotta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Forrest W. Christian wrote:
> > Clint Ricker wrote:
> >> Not to be overly provocative here, but why are you paying $60/meg?
> > I'd be more than happy to pay less.   Please let me know where I can buy
> > a DS3 or OC3 delivered somewhere within my footprint or at most only a
> > couple of radio hops away for less than the $50-75 I'm paying now (right
> > now I have two full DS3's - one is around $50/meg and the other is
> > around $75/meg).
> >
> > If you're domain is correctly registered, you're ~50 miles from
> > Atlanta.   I'm ~400-600  miles from Salt Lake City, Seattle, or  Denver
> > - take your pick.   I'm *lucky* to get it at $50/meg.   If I was paying
> > loop, it would be more.
> >
> Montana is tough and you probably know you already have the best deal
> going from a traditional approach. I don't know if a non-traditional
> approach would work either, but here is an idea anyway.
>
> You are correct that doing radio hops to the closest major market is a
> good way to go, but in your case the mileage is just too high. How far
> away are you from Microserve, which is in Idaho. I believe they serve
> Boise, which probably has cheaper bandwidth. Is it feasible to backhaul
> your network to theirs? In areas with mountains like yours you can go a
> long way with 5.8/6Ghz.
>
> -Matt
> 
>
> ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
> ISPCON **
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> ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
> ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
> ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
> http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **
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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

[Matt Liotta]

Forrest W. Christian wrote:

Clint Ricker wrote:

Not to be overly provocative here, but why are you paying $60/meg?
I'd be more than happy to pay less.   Please let me know where I can buy 
a DS3 or OC3 delivered somewhere within my footprint or at most only a 
couple of radio hops away for less than the $50-75 I'm paying now (right 
now I have two full DS3's - one is around $50/meg and the other is 
around $75/meg).


If you're domain is correctly registered, you're ~50 miles from 
Atlanta.   I'm ~400-600  miles from Salt Lake City, Seattle, or  Denver 
- take your pick.   I'm *lucky* to get it at $50/meg.   If I was paying 
loop, it would be more. 

Montana is tough and you probably know you already have the best deal 
going from a traditional approach. I don't know if a non-traditional 
approach would work either, but here is an idea anyway.


You are correct that doing radio hops to the closest major market is a 
good way to go, but in your case the mileage is just too high. How far 
away are you from Microserve, which is in Idaho. I believe they serve 
Boise, which probably has cheaper bandwidth. Is it feasible to backhaul 
your network to theirs? In areas with mountains like yours you can go a 
long way with 5.8/6Ghz.


-Matt


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
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Re: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks

[lakeland]

XXL  What are you going to do with it??  Make a tent  :-)


Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-Original Message-
From: Allen Marsalis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 21:30:01 
To:WISPA General List 
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Thoughts on 900MHz mesh networks


I was only about a half year off.  Not bad for an old man.  :)   I'm 
not sure I remember your youngest though.  A belated congratulations 
to you!  I know you are proud of them both.  My son is now a freshman 
in high school and has outgrown me already.  Homecoming is this 
Saturday.  Wow how time flies. My daughter is 9 and in a few more 
years, she might be taller than me as well..

Yeah got one of those old BreezeCom shirts in XXL?  That is, if they 
aren't collectors items by now... ;)

Allen


At 08:32 PM 9/10/2007, Patrick Leary wrote:
>LOL. My girls are 6.5 and 4 now. They don't care much what the shirt
>says so long as it has something sparkly on it. :)  And I have plenty of
>old BreezeCOM shirts still.
>
>
>Patrick



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Re: [WISPA] Laptop

[Mike Hammett]

http://www.gd-itronix.com/

I forget which one, but one of their laptops was highlighted in Popular 
Science for having a new screen technology for dealing with sunlight.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Brian Rohrbacher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 4:28 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Laptop


I need a new one.  Anyone got a laptop that works outside well?  I can't 
see the screen on my dell very well.


Brian


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**
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Re: [WISPA] Laptop

[Brian Whigham]

Jenco Wireless wrote:

The Lenovo x61 is supposed to be pretty good - I just can't make myself
spend that kind of money.
I have the x60.  It does not have xbrite or anything.  I've used it 
outside a little.  But, I don't think I'd want to do that very much.  
It's legible, though, IIRC.


$1360 for my rig (2GB RAM, 1.8Ghz core2 duo, 120GB hdd, bluetooth, 
fingerprint reader, SD slot, firewire, 12" display, ~3.4 lbs).  Saw the 
x61 with 1GB RAM on techbargains for $867 days ago.


Brian


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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

[Forrest W. Christian]

Clint Ricker wrote:

Not to be overly provocative here, but why are you paying $60/meg?
I'd be more than happy to pay less.   Please let me know where I can buy 
a DS3 or OC3 delivered somewhere within my footprint or at most only a 
couple of radio hops away for less than the $50-75 I'm paying now (right 
now I have two full DS3's - one is around $50/meg and the other is 
around $75/meg).


If you're domain is correctly registered, you're ~50 miles from 
Atlanta.   I'm ~400-600  miles from Salt Lake City, Seattle, or  Denver 
- take your pick.   I'm *lucky* to get it at $50/meg.   If I was paying 
loop, it would be more.  


-forrest


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