Re: [WISPA] 6 foot 6ghz antenna rule
This is a fantastic idea. I have a situation where I need to make a 24 mile shot, and the tower owner already has 5 Ghz stuff on it and is reluctant to let me put 5 GHz equipment up. 6 GHz would be sweet, but I could probably use antennas smaller than 6 ft. John Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Hi All, For those that don't know, the 6 gig band is licensed ptp only. It's a pretty cheap license and you can get a LOT of throughput for very long distances. For short (less than 50 miles :-) the 6' antenna requirement often kills the deal because of size limits on what towers can handle. Or the building owner doesn't want such large antennas etc. Certainly for something that just shoots a mile or three up the road it's a tough rule to deal with. I'm not exactly sure how to go about it but I've got the name of the person at the FCC that'll help us if we'd like to request a rule change. I'd like to suggest that we push for elimination of the 6' antenna rule for the 6 gig band. If people are worried about undue interference in the band due to the wider beam antennas we could toss out an APC (automatic power control) requirement to use smaller antennas. Thoughts? Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! 64.146.146.12 (net meeting) www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 6 foot 6ghz antenna rule
17 dBi on 6 footer goes 32 miles here with 30 db fade margin @ 6 ghz Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: Can you tell me the frequencies in the 6 GHz bands that are desired? Are there any modulation limits, as to bandwidth and power output? What sort of distances are typically involved? A 6 foot dish can push a signal a very long distance or have a very high signal at a shorter distance. Lonnie On 8/6/05, A. Huppenthal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: $20K is about right for the radios for a licensed path. $500 to $2000 for the path analysis and license. The market has set that price. If 200 ISPs that belong to WISPA indicated their interest.. Well Lonnie might make them or someone else. The chipsets are there to operate in those bands, getting the FCC to allow them to be used in that band is a challenge. Whatever anyone wants to say about improve our effiency in using existing spectrum, we need to be fighting for more at this point, since there will be a swell of DSL users moving to Fixed wireless over the next year, as Telcos attempt to dominate that marketplace. Which will in-turn cause more congestion on the airwaves. That and the Anti-competitive actions of telcos - pricing below cost, are the two areas I recommend we all focus on. Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Last I heard a guy could get a Harris system (both ends, just radios) for a shade under $20k. Might be a bit lower now as it's been a couple of years. For a 45 meg system that's pretty high by today's standards. Let me say this again guys. We're talking LICENSED bands here. Interference isn't an issue no matter what antennas etc. are used. If you get interference on YOUR band you can make the other guy stop. It's just that simple. I honestly see few down sides to this idea. I'd sure like to see more of the 300 or so companies here chime in. So far it's looking like 2 to 1 that we do nothing. I must admit I'm more than a bit shocked. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! 64.146.146.12 (net meeting) www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 6 foot 6ghz antenna rule Marlon and Lonnie, First Off, Lonnie I fully agree with your point that we should not suggest rules that discourage good design or make it to easy to do poor designs. However, saying we don't need more spectrum is rediculous, expecially in these urban areas with lots of competition. We need to gain access to every ounce of spectrum that we can. I FULLY agree with Marlon, that it would be a GREAT idea to find a way to have 6 Ghz more usable for us. It is factual that the 6 foot antenna requirement makes it near impossible for most WISPs to use the band cost effectively. I personally am effected by this and could have need for the band. However doing away with the large antenna rule all togeather I think would be a mistake. A PtP band with safety rules is advantageous. I'd suggest asking to modify the rules to the extent necessary to make it usable for us. For example, what if the min antenna size requirement was reduced down to a 3 ft dish? Thats still down to around 5 degrees, and pretty easy getting approval for a 3 ft dish. Marlon, whats the most cost effective 6 Ghz radios on the market today, excluding the antennas? Just so I understand the ball park we are talking about. When you say Licenced is still twice the cost, that doesn't mean much unless you identify wether you were talking about unlicenced redline or Trango :-) Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 11:50 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 6 foot 6ghz antenna rule I think you guys are wrong on this. This is still a ptp band and it's licensed. So interference issues can be dealt with. As for links that are not correctly aimed. Why in the world would we want to give up on what could be a very useful rule change just because some minority (probably a very small minority) will likely screw up? Think, instead about how nice it would be if the manufacturers could modify today's relatively cheap 5 gig radios to do 6 gig. It's not all that much of a leap. But today MANY of you couldn't use that gear because you'd never be able to mount the antennas. Or because it's licensed gear it's still nearly twice the cost of unlicensed. It's easy to come up with reasons not to make changes. A man once told me that if no one ever changed we'd still all be eating with our fingers. Your points are valid but I don't think they are likely enough
Re: [WISPA] 6 foot 6ghz antenna rule
Last I heard a guy could get a Harris system (both ends, just radios) for a shade under $20k. Might be a bit lower now as it's been a couple of years. For a 45 meg system that's pretty high by today's standards. Let me say this again guys. We're talking LICENSED bands here. Interference isn't an issue no matter what antennas etc. are used. If you get interference on YOUR band you can make the other guy stop. It's just that simple. I honestly see few down sides to this idea. I'd sure like to see more of the 300 or so companies here chime in. So far it's looking like 2 to 1 that we do nothing. I must admit I'm more than a bit shocked. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! 64.146.146.12 (net meeting) www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 6 foot 6ghz antenna rule Marlon and Lonnie, First Off, Lonnie I fully agree with your point that we should not suggest rules that discourage good design or make it to easy to do poor designs. However, saying we don't need more spectrum is rediculous, expecially in these urban areas with lots of competition. We need to gain access to every ounce of spectrum that we can. I FULLY agree with Marlon, that it would be a GREAT idea to find a way to have 6 Ghz more usable for us. It is factual that the 6 foot antenna requirement makes it near impossible for most WISPs to use the band cost effectively. I personally am effected by this and could have need for the band. However doing away with the large antenna rule all togeather I think would be a mistake. A PtP band with safety rules is advantageous. I'd suggest asking to modify the rules to the extent necessary to make it usable for us. For example, what if the min antenna size requirement was reduced down to a 3 ft dish? Thats still down to around 5 degrees, and pretty easy getting approval for a 3 ft dish. Marlon, whats the most cost effective 6 Ghz radios on the market today, excluding the antennas? Just so I understand the ball park we are talking about. When you say Licenced is still twice the cost, that doesn't mean much unless you identify wether you were talking about unlicenced redline or Trango :-) Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 11:50 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 6 foot 6ghz antenna rule I think you guys are wrong on this. This is still a ptp band and it's licensed. So interference issues can be dealt with. As for links that are not correctly aimed. Why in the world would we want to give up on what could be a very useful rule change just because some minority (probably a very small minority) will likely screw up? Think, instead about how nice it would be if the manufacturers could modify today's relatively cheap 5 gig radios to do 6 gig. It's not all that much of a leap. But today MANY of you couldn't use that gear because you'd never be able to mount the antennas. Or because it's licensed gear it's still nearly twice the cost of unlicensed. It's easy to come up with reasons not to make changes. A man once told me that if no one ever changed we'd still all be eating with our fingers. Your points are valid but I don't think they are likely enough to happen that it'll matter. Or we can take steps now to deal with those issues. Again, it's a licensed band, interference isn't really an issue. You have protection against that. I've got a customer in Fresno that's got no place to go with 2.4 or 900. He's using VERY high end radios in the 5 gig bands. Even the big boy toys won't work well anymore. Even ptp links. He's getting by but it's getting much harder all of the time. He needs the 6 gig band to pull some ptp links around but can't use them because of the antenna size issue. And lets not forget about the cost part of the mix. 6' antennas are listing for $1800 in the EC cat without a raydome. That's for a good Radio Waves unit, but still. I really can't see a down side to trying that comes anywhere near the potential upside. I see a few that don't think it's a good thing. Do the rest of you agree with that? I happen to think that anything that gives us more flexibility without letting the bad people out there do bad things is a good thing to try to do. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp
Re: [WISPA] 6 foot 6ghz antenna rule
I have some experience at 6, 11, 13, 18 23 GHz, more at 6, 11 13. These were all carrier links never used a 6' dish unless it was a short path, less than 8 mi., usually 6 or less. WE built 40 dB fade margin into every path. tried to keep the radiated signal beem as narrow as possible, larger antennas, greater gain, they don't burn out. Downside is stiffer towers, very expensive. However, at 6 and 11 you can get 672 Mb/s and that's good. I don't have the money right now or I would have a two hop system to Southfield MI where a meg is around 100-125. My point, the licensed spectrum is excellent, no interference, and w/ enough fade margin it rocks. Lonnie and Marlon - I support everything they say, nearly. We need to use whatever we can get our hands on, that lifts our advantage. So keep it up guys. Original message Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:03:55 -0700 From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WISPA] 6 foot 6ghz antenna rule To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Last I heard a guy could get a Harris system (both ends, just radios) for a shade under $20k. Might be a bit lower now as it's been a couple of years. For a 45 meg system that's pretty high by today's standards. Let me say this again guys. We're talking LICENSED bands here. Interference isn't an issue no matter what antennas etc. are used. If you get interference on YOUR band you can make the other guy stop. It's just that simple. I honestly see few down sides to this idea. I'd sure like to see more of the 300 or so companies here chime in. So far it's looking like 2 to 1 that we do nothing. I must admit I'm more than a bit shocked. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! 64.146.146.12 (net meeting) www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 6 foot 6ghz antenna rule Marlon and Lonnie, First Off, Lonnie I fully agree with your point that we should not suggest rules that discourage good design or make it to easy to do poor designs. However, saying we don't need more spectrum is rediculous, expecially in these urban areas with lots of competition. We need to gain access to every ounce of spectrum that we can. I FULLY agree with Marlon, that it would be a GREAT idea to find a way to have 6 Ghz more usable for us. It is factual that the 6 foot antenna requirement makes it near impossible for most WISPs to use the band cost effectively. I personally am effected by this and could have need for the band. However doing away with the large antenna rule all togeather I think would be a mistake. A PtP band with safety rules is advantageous. I'd suggest asking to modify the rules to the extent necessary to make it usable for us. For example, what if the min antenna size requirement was reduced down to a 3 ft dish? Thats still down to around 5 degrees, and pretty easy getting approval for a 3 ft dish. Marlon, whats the most cost effective 6 Ghz radios on the market today, excluding the antennas? Just so I understand the ball park we are talking about. When you say Licenced is still twice the cost, that doesn't mean much unless you identify wether you were talking about unlicenced redline or Trango :-) Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 11:50 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 6 foot 6ghz antenna rule I think you guys are wrong on this. This is still a ptp band and it's licensed. So interference issues can be dealt with. As for links that are not correctly aimed. Why in the world would we want to give up on what could be a very useful rule change just because some minority (probably a very small minority) will likely screw up? Think, instead about how nice it would be if the manufacturers could modify today's relatively cheap 5 gig radios to do 6 gig. It's not all that much of a leap. But today MANY of you couldn't use that gear because you'd never be able to mount the antennas. Or because it's licensed gear it's still nearly twice the cost of unlicensed. It's easy to come up with reasons not to make changes. A man once told me that if no one ever changed we'd still all be eating with our fingers. Your points are valid but I don't think they are likely enough to happen that it'll matter. Or we can take steps now to deal with those issues. Again, it's a licensed band, interference isn't really an issue
