RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] WPA and Wireless LAN Server Certificate?
Are you referring to an intermediate Certificate vs. a root? VeriSign only offers intermediate certificate that the WLCs before 5.1 code will not use properly. It is an issue with understanding the chaining from what Cisco tells us. We ended up going through Entrust to get a 2 Year root and it fixed our cert warning issue immediately. Douglas R. Bentley University Information Technology Systems Engineering Group 727 Elmwood Avenue, Suite 132 Rochester, NY 14620 Office: (585) 275-6550 Fax:(585) 273-1013 Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rochester.edu/its/ http://www.rochester.edu/its/ -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Toivo Voll Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 2:08 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] WPA and Wireless LAN Server Certificate? Until now we've been using our regular web / SSL certificate for WPA / PEAP/MSCHAP purposes, and predictably have run into the usability issues with certificate trust prompts on the client end. (We use Cisco LWAPP / Freeradius). It appears VeriSign has a specific Wireless LAN Server Certificate, and apparently there is work done in IETF regarding WLAN specific extensions in certificates. After a fair bit of googling I've been unable to find out just what the difference between a vanilla SSL certificate and a Wireless LAN Server Certificate is. Presumably the WLAN certificates won't prompt for the certificate trust, but what other difference, if any, is there? Are there providers other than VeriSign for these certificates? (Thawte, for example, seems to refer back to VeriSign for such certs.) Here's the uninformative product page: http://www.verisign.com/ssl/buy-ssl-certificates/specialized-ssl-certificates/wireless-lan-security/ Any advice or links to documentation on the matter would be greatly appreciated. -- Toivo Voll Network Administrator Information Technology Communications University of South Florida ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. image001.jpg
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] WPA and Wireless LAN Server Certificate?
We're using a Verisign cert on IAS, but our users are still prompted to accept the cert upon initial connect. We asked Verisign about this, and they basically said, that's the way it's designed to work. We did some poking around on the interwebs, and could find a good solution. This was two or three years ago. Has anyone managed to find a cert that XP/Vista will accept without prompting? Thanks Norman Elton ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] WPA and Wireless LAN Server Certificate?
We currently use IAS with the Verisign WLAN cert. We are going to move away from Verisign for our cert purchases. Can you use another cert authority besides Verisign for IAS? Nicholas Urrea Information Technology UC Hastings College of the Law -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lee H Badman Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 7:35 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] WPA and Wireless LAN Server Certificate? We use Verisign and Cisco ACS on LWAPP. After the server names are listed in the supplicant config and are trusted once, we never see the cert prompt again. (Also- make sure PC date/time is correct- if the PC clock time is way off, outside of the valid cert time period, the client will never get past the verify cert bubbles- this one can be maddening to diagnose). -Lee Lee H. Badman Wireless/Network Engineer Information Technology and Services Syracuse University 315 443-3003 -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Norman Elton Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 9:37 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] WPA and Wireless LAN Server Certificate? We're using a Verisign cert on IAS, but our users are still prompted to accept the cert upon initial connect. We asked Verisign about this, and they basically said, that's the way it's designed to work. We did some poking around on the interwebs, and could find a good solution. This was two or three years ago. Has anyone managed to find a cert that XP/Vista will accept without prompting? Thanks Norman Elton ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] WPA and Wireless LAN Server Certificate?
We purchased a certificate from THAWTE and installed in on our controllers to alleviate this problem. This THAWTE is a valid certificate authority already listed in all the majority of client browsers we longer see this error. John V. Duran Network Engineer University of New Mexico Information Technology Services Ph: (505) 249-7890 Fax: (505) 277-8101 Norman Elton [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/19/2008 7:37 AM We're using a Verisign cert on IAS, but our users are still prompted to accept the cert upon initial connect. We asked Verisign about this, and they basically said, that's the way it's designed to work. We did some poking around on the interwebs, and could find a good solution. This was two or three years ago. Has anyone managed to find a cert that XP/Vista will accept without prompting? Thanks Norman Elton ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Wireless coverage for bus riders
In the name of what if, wondering if any school has installed infrastructure specifically intended to provide WLAN to bus riders on campus? I'm talking strictly outside-in coverage, no radio magic on the bus itself. If so, how's it working for you and just as important, do you get the sense that anyone appreciates it? Regards- Lee Lee H. Badman Wireless/Network Engineer Information Technology and Services Syracuse University 315 443-3003 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless coverage for bus riders
Hi Lee, I would not even dare to do it with WLAN if the plan is to get connectivity to a moving bus from outside the bus. If the goal is to get users connectivity in a non-moving bus, not sure how significant that would be for users (how long do buses stay stationary?). To make it of real use, I would use licensed stuff (3G and 4G) to the moving bus and have an AP inside the bus for end-user connectivity. Not sure why the transportation and transit systems haven't gone that route (no pun intended!). ... Jonn Martell, [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.martell.ca On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 12:26 PM, Lee H Badman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the name of what if, wondering if any school has installed infrastructure specifically intended to provide WLAN to bus riders on campus? I'm talking strictly outside-in coverage, no radio magic on the bus itself. If so, how's it working for you and just as important, do you get the sense that anyone appreciates it? Regards- Lee Lee H. Badman Wireless/Network Engineer Information Technology and Services Syracuse University 315 443-3003 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless coverage for bus riders
Hi John- Actually some busses have gone the route you describe. Here's one in San Francisco: http://thecityfix.com/the-wireless-on-the-bus-makes-the-wheels-go-round- and-round/ and a bus line in Singapore does it as well, for examples. But back to my notion of outside-in coverage... If you think about the classic activity of war-driving, you're typically trying to find wireless networks from within a vehicle, which is largely a rolling Faraday cage- just like a bus. I have external antennas, but rarely bother with them during my often very successful, shall we say, explorations in this area. So perhaps another somewhat simplistic way of looking at the idea of outside-in coverage for rolling busses is that you're setting up a really good war-driving target for passengers (as casual users) to be able to find and use. Seems like even a less-than-optimal WiFi corridor along a 30 MPH or less bus route *may* provide throughputs as good as a cellular-based access point that's at one end of a bus full of signal-attenuating people. Maybe. Not really trying to prove a point- just free wheelin' here:) -Lee Lee H. Badman Wireless/Network Engineer Information Technology and Services Syracuse University 315 443-3003 -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonn Martell Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 7:01 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless coverage for bus riders Hi Lee, I would not even dare to do it with WLAN if the plan is to get connectivity to a moving bus from outside the bus. If the goal is to get users connectivity in a non-moving bus, not sure how significant that would be for users (how long do buses stay stationary?). To make it of real use, I would use licensed stuff (3G and 4G) to the moving bus and have an AP inside the bus for end-user connectivity. Not sure why the transportation and transit systems haven't gone that route (no pun intended!). ... Jonn Martell, [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.martell.ca On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 12:26 PM, Lee H Badman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the name of what if, wondering if any school has installed infrastructure specifically intended to provide WLAN to bus riders on campus? I'm talking strictly outside-in coverage, no radio magic on the bus itself. If so, how's it working for you and just as important, do you get the sense that anyone appreciates it? Regards- Lee Lee H. Badman Wireless/Network Engineer Information Technology and Services Syracuse University 315 443-3003 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless coverage for bus riders
Hi Lee, The reason why I'm not optimistic about WLAN outside-in for this use is because it was never designed to provide roaming at anything more than walking speeds. I'm sure that some vendors are better than others using proprietary ways but in my vehicular tests on campus, the roaming capability didn't prove to be a success. Even bicycle speeds might be too much. For a modern day WLAN network to be a success (IMHO), they would have to implement Enterprise WPA2 and if you think we have re-authentication fun on a campus mobile level, I can just imagine doing this at a XX AP per second level while moving on a bus. I'd advocate that a per-bus Wi-Fi AP is the best architecture. The outside-to-outside(WWAN)+inside-to-inside(WLAN) wireless seems to be the best architecture especially in regards to user experience, frequency reuse and power management. ... Jonn Martell, [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.martell.ca On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 5:56 PM, Lee H Badman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi John- Actually some busses have gone the route you describe. Here's one in San Francisco: http://thecityfix.com/the-wireless-on-the-bus-makes-the-wheels-go-round- and-round/ and a bus line in Singapore does it as well, for examples. But back to my notion of outside-in coverage... If you think about the classic activity of war-driving, you're typically trying to find wireless networks from within a vehicle, which is largely a rolling Faraday cage- just like a bus. I have external antennas, but rarely bother with them during my often very successful, shall we say, explorations in this area. So perhaps another somewhat simplistic way of looking at the idea of outside-in coverage for rolling busses is that you're setting up a really good war-driving target for passengers (as casual users) to be able to find and use. Seems like even a less-than-optimal WiFi corridor along a 30 MPH or less bus route *may* provide throughputs as good as a cellular-based access point that's at one end of a bus full of signal-attenuating people. Maybe. Not really trying to prove a point- just free wheelin' here:) -Lee Lee H. Badman Wireless/Network Engineer Information Technology and Services Syracuse University 315 443-3003 -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonn Martell Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 7:01 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless coverage for bus riders Hi Lee, I would not even dare to do it with WLAN if the plan is to get connectivity to a moving bus from outside the bus. If the goal is to get users connectivity in a non-moving bus, not sure how significant that would be for users (how long do buses stay stationary?). To make it of real use, I would use licensed stuff (3G and 4G) to the moving bus and have an AP inside the bus for end-user connectivity. Not sure why the transportation and transit systems haven't gone that route (no pun intended!). ... Jonn Martell, [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.martell.ca On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 12:26 PM, Lee H Badman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the name of what if, wondering if any school has installed infrastructure specifically intended to provide WLAN to bus riders on campus? I'm talking strictly outside-in coverage, no radio magic on the bus itself. If so, how's it working for you and just as important, do you get the sense that anyone appreciates it? Regards- Lee Lee H. Badman Wireless/Network Engineer Information Technology and Services Syracuse University 315 443-3003 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless coverage for bus riders
Re: the 3G on-board approach, assuming you have 110vac on the bus, something like MB8000 mobile bridge from Top Global should work. Our city folks piloted this on an express bus run a couple of years ago (altho' staring at the screen on a moving bus is for younger eyes ;-), and we bought one for use as a mobile hot spot to support short notice events. Takes most any 3G cellular card, and simple to configure. Best. garret Garret Yoshimi Director, Technology Infrastructure University of Hawaii Jonn Martell wrote: Hi Lee, The reason why I'm not optimistic about WLAN outside-in for this use is because it was never designed to provide roaming at anything more than walking speeds. I'm sure that some vendors are better than others using proprietary ways but in my vehicular tests on campus, the roaming capability didn't prove to be a success. Even bicycle speeds might be too much. For a modern day WLAN network to be a success (IMHO), they would have to implement Enterprise WPA2 and if you think we have re-authentication fun on a campus mobile level, I can just imagine doing this at a XX AP per second level while moving on a bus. I'd advocate that a per-bus Wi-Fi AP is the best architecture. The outside-to-outside(WWAN)+inside-to-inside(WLAN) wireless seems to be the best architecture especially in regards to user experience, frequency reuse and power management. ... Jonn Martell, [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.martell.ca On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 5:56 PM, Lee H Badman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi John- Actually some busses have gone the route you describe. Here's one in San Francisco: http://thecityfix.com/the-wireless-on-the-bus-makes-the-wheels-go-round- and-round/ and a bus line in Singapore does it as well, for examples. But back to my notion of outside-in coverage... If you think about the classic activity of war-driving, you're typically trying to find wireless networks from within a vehicle, which is largely a rolling Faraday cage- just like a bus. I have external antennas, but rarely bother with them during my often very successful, shall we say, explorations in this area. So perhaps another somewhat simplistic way of looking at the idea of outside-in coverage for rolling busses is that you're setting up a really good war-driving target for passengers (as casual users) to be able to find and use. Seems like even a less-than-optimal WiFi corridor along a 30 MPH or less bus route *may* provide throughputs as good as a cellular-based access point that's at one end of a bus full of signal-attenuating people. Maybe. Not really trying to prove a point- just free wheelin' here:) -Lee Lee H. Badman Wireless/Network Engineer Information Technology and Services Syracuse University 315 443-3003 -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonn Martell Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 7:01 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless coverage for bus riders Hi Lee, I would not even dare to do it with WLAN if the plan is to get connectivity to a moving bus from outside the bus. If the goal is to get users connectivity in a non-moving bus, not sure how significant that would be for users (how long do buses stay stationary?). To make it of real use, I would use licensed stuff (3G and 4G) to the moving bus and have an AP inside the bus for end-user connectivity. Not sure why the transportation and transit systems haven't gone that route (no pun intended!). ... Jonn Martell, [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.martell.ca On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 12:26 PM, Lee H Badman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the name of what if, wondering if any school has installed infrastructure specifically intended to provide WLAN to bus riders on campus? I'm talking strictly outside-in coverage, no radio magic on the bus itself. If so, how's it working for you and just as important, do you get the sense that anyone appreciates it? Regards- Lee Lee H. Badman Wireless/Network Engineer Information Technology and Services Syracuse University 315 443-3003 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless coverage for bus riders
No arguments on the science. At the same time, I'd love to hear from folks that have big honkin' 802.11-based mesh networks, as I've gotta think there is some from-within-the-vehicle-while-rolling use occurring on.11 topologies at city driving speeds in these environments. Fully realizing that some of the other lesser known 802.11 working groups (like .11r) are better suited for reference in this line of dialogue, I guess I'm thinking that at least on our campus, there's a fair amount of bus stop-and-go, considering all of the bus stops, stop signs, traffic-related slowdowns, etc. So if I had a shuttle route of say a mile and a half, the typical AVERAGE speed of the bus might be 10 or 15 MPH, despite the posted limit being 30. Then let's say that the casual user was trying to do email, or basic web functions for their 10 or 15 minutes of suffering through potentially 10 stops until they got to their own- not enough time to get into heavier activities (if you mention voice, I'll ignore you)- it seems like circumstantially you get closer to being able to pull it off. But then there are questions like and what have you really gained with all of this? I do realize. Again, just letting the mind wander a bit on the topic. Lee -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonn Martell Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 9:14 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless coverage for bus riders Hi Lee, The reason why I'm not optimistic about WLAN outside-in for this use is because it was never designed to provide roaming at anything more than walking speeds. I'm sure that some vendors are better than others using proprietary ways but in my vehicular tests on campus, the roaming capability didn't prove to be a success. Even bicycle speeds might be too much. For a modern day WLAN network to be a success (IMHO), they would have to implement Enterprise WPA2 and if you think we have re-authentication fun on a campus mobile level, I can just imagine doing this at a XX AP per second level while moving on a bus. I'd advocate that a per-bus Wi-Fi AP is the best architecture. The outside-to-outside(WWAN)+inside-to-inside(WLAN) wireless seems to be the best architecture especially in regards to user experience, frequency reuse and power management. ... Jonn Martell, [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.martell.ca On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 5:56 PM, Lee H Badman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi John- Actually some busses have gone the route you describe. Here's one in San Francisco: http://thecityfix.com/the-wireless-on-the-bus-makes-the-wheels-go-round- and-round/ and a bus line in Singapore does it as well, for examples. But back to my notion of outside-in coverage... If you think about the classic activity of war-driving, you're typically trying to find wireless networks from within a vehicle, which is largely a rolling Faraday cage- just like a bus. I have external antennas, but rarely bother with them during my often very successful, shall we say, explorations in this area. So perhaps another somewhat simplistic way of looking at the idea of outside-in coverage for rolling busses is that you're setting up a really good war-driving target for passengers (as casual users) to be able to find and use. Seems like even a less-than-optimal WiFi corridor along a 30 MPH or less bus route *may* provide throughputs as good as a cellular-based access point that's at one end of a bus full of signal-attenuating people. Maybe. Not really trying to prove a point- just free wheelin' here:) -Lee Lee H. Badman Wireless/Network Engineer Information Technology and Services Syracuse University 315 443-3003 -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonn Martell Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 7:01 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless coverage for bus riders Hi Lee, I would not even dare to do it with WLAN if the plan is to get connectivity to a moving bus from outside the bus. If the goal is to get users connectivity in a non-moving bus, not sure how significant that would be for users (how long do buses stay stationary?). To make it of real use, I would use licensed stuff (3G and 4G) to the moving bus and have an AP inside the bus for end-user connectivity. Not sure why the transportation and transit systems haven't gone that route (no pun intended!). ... Jonn Martell, [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.martell.ca On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 12:26 PM, Lee H Badman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the name of what if, wondering if any school has installed infrastructure specifically intended to provide WLAN to bus riders on campus? I'm talking strictly outside-in coverage, no radio magic on the bus itself. If so, how's it working for you and just as important, do
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless coverage for bus riders
Thanks for the info, Garret- I also see a lot of Compex gear show up in my monitoring, in emergency vehicles and itinerant busses passing through. In my conversational exercise, the chances of putting any such hardware on the particular busses in question is next to nill, though. Lee Lee H. Badman Wireless/Network Engineer Information Technology and Services Syracuse University 315 443-3003 -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Garret Yoshimi Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 9:34 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless coverage for bus riders Re: the 3G on-board approach, assuming you have 110vac on the bus, something like MB8000 mobile bridge from Top Global should work. Our city folks piloted this on an express bus run a couple of years ago (altho' staring at the screen on a moving bus is for younger eyes ;-), and we bought one for use as a mobile hot spot to support short notice events. Takes most any 3G cellular card, and simple to configure. Best. garret Garret Yoshimi Director, Technology Infrastructure University of Hawaii Jonn Martell wrote: Hi Lee, The reason why I'm not optimistic about WLAN outside-in for this use is because it was never designed to provide roaming at anything more than walking speeds. I'm sure that some vendors are better than others using proprietary ways but in my vehicular tests on campus, the roaming capability didn't prove to be a success. Even bicycle speeds might be too much. For a modern day WLAN network to be a success (IMHO), they would have to implement Enterprise WPA2 and if you think we have re-authentication fun on a campus mobile level, I can just imagine doing this at a XX AP per second level while moving on a bus. I'd advocate that a per-bus Wi-Fi AP is the best architecture. The outside-to-outside(WWAN)+inside-to-inside(WLAN) wireless seems to be the best architecture especially in regards to user experience, frequency reuse and power management. ... Jonn Martell, [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.martell.ca On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 5:56 PM, Lee H Badman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi John- Actually some busses have gone the route you describe. Here's one in San Francisco: http://thecityfix.com/the-wireless-on-the-bus-makes-the-wheels-go-round- and-round/ and a bus line in Singapore does it as well, for examples. But back to my notion of outside-in coverage... If you think about the classic activity of war-driving, you're typically trying to find wireless networks from within a vehicle, which is largely a rolling Faraday cage- just like a bus. I have external antennas, but rarely bother with them during my often very successful, shall we say, explorations in this area. So perhaps another somewhat simplistic way of looking at the idea of outside-in coverage for rolling busses is that you're setting up a really good war-driving target for passengers (as casual users) to be able to find and use. Seems like even a less-than-optimal WiFi corridor along a 30 MPH or less bus route *may* provide throughputs as good as a cellular-based access point that's at one end of a bus full of signal-attenuating people. Maybe. Not really trying to prove a point- just free wheelin' here:) -Lee Lee H. Badman Wireless/Network Engineer Information Technology and Services Syracuse University 315 443-3003 -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonn Martell Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 7:01 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless coverage for bus riders Hi Lee, I would not even dare to do it with WLAN if the plan is to get connectivity to a moving bus from outside the bus. If the goal is to get users connectivity in a non-moving bus, not sure how significant that would be for users (how long do buses stay stationary?). To make it of real use, I would use licensed stuff (3G and 4G) to the moving bus and have an AP inside the bus for end-user connectivity. Not sure why the transportation and transit systems haven't gone that route (no pun intended!). ... Jonn Martell, [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.martell.ca On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 12:26 PM, Lee H Badman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the name of what if, wondering if any school has installed infrastructure specifically intended to provide WLAN to bus riders on campus? I'm talking strictly outside-in coverage, no radio magic on the bus itself. If so, how's it working for you and just as important, do you get the sense that anyone appreciates it? Regards- Lee Lee H. Badman Wireless/Network Engineer Information Technology and Services Syracuse University 315 443-3003 ** Participation and subscription information for this
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless coverage for bus riders
I think the speed of the bus might be dependent on the location and frequency of stops. Here our buses mostly do the speed limit unless there are several stops within a couple blocks, which I haven't noticed in my travels around town. I seem to recall reading an article somewhere similar to this, but it was with trains in Europe or Asia. I'll see if I can find it. For something more local, what about WiMAX? Heath Barnhart Asst. Sys/Net Administrator Information Systems Services Washburn Univerity Topeka, KS - Original Message - From: Lee H Badman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 8:47 pm Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless coverage for bus riders To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU No arguments on the science. At the same time, I'd love to hear from folks that have big honkin' 802.11-based mesh networks, as I've gotta think there is some from-within-the-vehicle-while-rolling use occurringon.11 topologies at city driving speeds in these environments. Fully realizing that some of the other lesser known 802.11 working groups (like .11r) are better suited for reference in this line of dialogue, I guess I'm thinking that at least on our campus, there's a fair amount of bus stop-and-go, considering all of the bus stops, stop signs, traffic-related slowdowns, etc. So if I had a shuttle route of say a mile and a half, the typical AVERAGE speed of the bus might be 10 or 15 MPH, despite the posted limit being 30. Then let's say that the casual user was trying to do email, or basic web functions for their 10 or 15 minutes of suffering through potentially 10 stops until they got to their own- not enough time to get into heavier activities (if you mention voice, I'll ignore you)- it seems like circumstantially you getcloser to being able to pull it off. But then there are questions like and what have you really gained withall of this? I do realize. Again, just letting the mind wander a bit on the topic. Lee -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonn Martell Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 9:14 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless coverage for bus riders Hi Lee, The reason why I'm not optimistic about WLAN outside-in for this use is because it was never designed to provide roaming at anything more than walking speeds. I'm sure that some vendors are better than others using proprietary ways but in my vehicular tests on campus, the roaming capability didn't prove to be a success. Even bicycle speeds might be too much. For a modern day WLAN network to be a success (IMHO), they would have to implement Enterprise WPA2 and if you think we have re-authentication fun on a campus mobile level, I can just imagine doing this at a XX AP per second level while moving on a bus. I'd advocate that a per-bus Wi-Fi AP is the best architecture. The outside-to-outside(WWAN)+inside-to-inside(WLAN) wireless seems to be the best architecture especially in regards to user experience, frequency reuse and power management. ... Jonn Martell, [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.martell.ca On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 5:56 PM, Lee H Badman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi John- Actually some busses have gone the route you describe. Here's one in San Francisco: http://thecityfix.com/the-wireless-on-the-bus-makes-the-wheels-go- round- and-round/ and a bus line in Singapore does it as well, for examples. But back to my notion of outside-in coverage... If you think about the classic activity of war-driving, you're typically trying to find wireless networks from within a vehicle, which is largely a rolling Faraday cage- just like a bus. I have external antennas, but rarely bother with them during my often very successful, shall we say, explorations in this area. So perhaps another somewhat simplistic way of looking at the idea of outside-in coverage for rolling busses is that you're setting up a really good war-driving target for passengers (as casual users) to be able to find and use. Seems like even a less-than-optimal WiFi corridor along a 30 MPH or less bus route *may* provide throughputsas good as a cellular-based access point that's at one end of a bus fullof signal-attenuating people. Maybe. Not really trying to prove a point- just free wheelin' here:) -Lee Lee H. Badman Wireless/Network Engineer Information Technology and Services Syracuse University 315 443-3003 -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonn Martell Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 7:01 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless coverage for bus riders Hi Lee, I would not even dare to do it with WLAN if the plan is to get
