RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost
Hello all! We had that problem a while ago. We did a site survey to evaluate the number of AP needed to propose an architecture and secure a budget...by the time we had the go AP changed and technology changed and we had to do another survey with the new type of AP. The first one already cost a lot... we have many floor.. around 10K$ Finally We didn`t do a site survey, For the first phase we wanted coverage so we used the rule of tumb 1 AP to cover a number of meter sq. We validated also with the simulation available with Cisco WCS. We have deployed 112 AP and now we will add density where needed. We were planning to do buy a software airpeak, Ekahau and adjust our deployment accordingly. I feel the wifi is dynamic not like cable and that add to the challenge. The university is always evolving, renovation, wall, office, corridor, classroom so the site survey is only valid as long as the physical part don`t change much...believe me here the site survey wouldn`t last more than a semester with all the construction/evolution. Maybe residence are more stable environment... Cordialement Christian Héroux Ing., M.Ing., ITIL Section systèmes, infrastructures et télécommunications École de Technologie Supérieure Montréal Qc Canada Courriel: christian.her...@etsmtl.ca mailto:jean-charles.caz...@etsmtl.ca Téléphone:(514) 396-8800 ext 7863 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of John Kaftan Sent: 14 mars 2011 12:42 To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost I know this is a crazy question with tons of variables but I am trying to at least get an idea of what it would cost to do a wireless survey in our residence halls. We have 7 buildings built over the years with a variety of construction materials. Each building has 3-4 floors. We have a total of 1100 students living on campus. Has anyone had a commercial wireless survey done and if so can you give me any idea of what I would be looking at? My intention is to do this via an Internship so I do not really want to shop this out and put vendors through the paces. I just want to give an estimate of what it would cost the college if we were to have a commercial provider do the work. John Kaftan Infrastructure Manager Utica College 315.792.3102 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost
So I hate to dig this up again but nobody really responded to Jeff Sessler's post Given the need for designs based on capacity rather than coverage, do those who've done site surveys previously feel they are still worth the trouble? Seems to me wireless surveys are for determining coverage which is something we can easily measure. We can require that an area will have no less than -68 dBm signal and do the survey to determine what it will take. However, if folks are saying that in a high density area like a ResHall just providing coverage is not enough and we must go much denser what good is the survey? If coverage is not enough then how do we determine our density? Is it just by feel? Up until now I figured I was not going to do a survey. I figured for the cost of the survey I could buy an additional 30-50 APs. When pulling wire I'd have facilities leave a 20' coil and pull double the wire I originally guessed based on past experience. Then we would just Throw it up and see what happens. If we move slowly and do a ResHall at a time we should be able to get a feel for it. Now I have a shot at doing a survey this summer after the fact by using students from a nearby University that has a MS in Networking as an internship. The cost is much less than a professional survey but I have to ask if it is still worth it if capacity is what we are going for? Perhaps I should be looking at a different internship. There is certainly plenty to do around here. John Kaftan Infrastructure Manager Utica College 315.792.3102 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of John Kaftan Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:16 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost I have everyone held back to 2 Mbs on wireless. That seems to be a good number for now. Nobody is complaining and it helps to keep their experience consistent. They can watch a Netflix movie with that. I imagine Netflix would use more bandwidth if it could. I have not tested though. On 3/16/2011 6:28 PM, Brian Helman wrote: If people are building new dorms, I'd definitely run copper to any common rooms if you support any gaming consoles. Honestly though, we have a good density of wiring even in the dorms and I'm pretty close to shutting down or at least limiting the bandwidth available for video on the wireless network. Netflix, Flash and Youtube are killing it (not to mention our Internet connection). -Brian From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel Coehoorn Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 10:30 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost Agree I wouldn't run new port-per-pillow drops, but I wouldn't ditch existing drops (just update the switching) and anywhere you have apartment-style living I would put a wired port in the common space for game consoles/blu-ray/smart tvs/etc. Those who actually use the ports will be the few who know enough to know why it's better, and they also tend to be your heaviest users. It's nice to get some of the gaming and netflix traffic out of your airspace. On Mar 15, 2011 7:50pm, John Kaftan mailto:jkaf...@utica.edu jkaf...@utica.edu wrote: Thanks, but I have purchased already. We will be doing this backwards. We are pulling extra drops and leaving 20' coils of cable above the ceilings and then throw up the APs and see what happens. Not perfect but we have been doing alright with that. We have a feel for it and the students report happiness. This summer we will do the survey to tighten things up a bit. I am considering dropping the wired ports as our LAN is past due for a refresh and I do not want to re-invest in the port-per-pillow model. John On 3/15/2011 7:09 PM, Brian Helman wrote: Have you already selected a wireless product? If not, I think you'd be far better served issuing an RFP for full procurement and installation, with signal guarantees (I'd recommend -68dBm). If you have holes, the contract should be on the hook for it. Take advantage of this economy. Vendors will jump on this. Remember, antennas vary GREATLY. If you do a survey and then bid out and end up with a different product than you conducted the survey with, you could end up with holes. -Brian From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of heath.barnhart [heath.barnh...@washburn.edu] Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 9:57 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost If you have any resellers/technology partners/consultants you might ask them. Standard consultant fees would probably apply (I've seen $150-$300/hour). If they're
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost
You can certainly set dBm limits for signal and survey, or data rate limits, or client density limits, and survey with those. However, there are aspects that just require one to have knowledge or a feel, of campus. For example: Where do people typically congregate and use laptops? Which students typically are heavy users of data and which aren’t? Why is one outdoor seating area really popular and another one isn’t, and might that hold for the students two years from now? Do the MIS or Geography students work on large databases wirelessly from their study lounge? Where ARE the study lounges, sanctioned and ad-hoc in the first place, and where will they be next year? Are you expected to cover a given space for special events where you have hundreds of users, but only a few times a year? Etc, etc. Typical site surveys with well-thought out criteria as basis for planning are certainly useful, especially in the administrative (corporate) spaces, but once you get into the academics you have to put in a lot more external information to make use of them beyond the basic coverage aspect. Toivo Voll Network Administrator Information Technology Communications University of South Florida From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of John Kaftan Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 15:12 To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost So I hate to dig this up again but nobody really responded to Jeff Sessler’s post “Given the need for designs based on capacity rather than coverage, do those who've done site surveys previously feel they are still worth the trouble?” Seems to me wireless surveys are for determining coverage which is something we can easily measure. We can require that an area will have no less than -68 dBm signal and do the survey to determine what it will take. However, if folks are saying that in a high density area like a ResHall just providing coverage is not enough and we must go much denser what good is the survey? If coverage is not enough then how do we determine our density? Is it just by feel? Up until now I figured I was not going to do a survey. I figured for the cost of the survey I could buy an additional 30-50 APs. When pulling wire I’d have facilities leave a 20’ coil and pull double the wire I originally guessed based on past experience. Then we would just “Throw it up” and see what happens. If we move slowly and do a ResHall at a time we should be able to get a feel for it. Now I have a shot at doing a survey this summer after the fact by using students from a nearby University that has a MS in Networking as an internship. The cost is much less than a professional survey but I have to ask if it is still worth it if capacity is what we are going for? Perhaps I should be looking at a different internship. There is certainly plenty to do around here. John Kaftan Infrastructure Manager Utica College 315.792.3102 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of John Kaftan Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:16 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost I have everyone held back to 2 Mbs on wireless. That seems to be a good number for now. Nobody is complaining and it helps to keep their experience consistent. They can watch a Netflix movie with that. I imagine Netflix would use more bandwidth if it could. I have not tested though. On 3/16/2011 6:28 PM, Brian Helman wrote: If people are building new dorms, I’d definitely run copper to any common rooms if you support any gaming consoles. Honestly though, we have a good density of wiring even in the dorms and I’m pretty close to shutting down or at least limiting the bandwidth available for video on the wireless network. Netflix, Flash and Youtube are killing it (not to mention our Internet connection). -Brian From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel Coehoorn Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 10:30 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost Agree I wouldn't run new port-per-pillow drops, but I wouldn't ditch existing drops (just update the switching) and anywhere you have apartment-style living I would put a wired port in the common space for game consoles/blu-ray/smart tvs/etc. Those who actually use the ports will be the few who know enough to know why it's better, and they also tend to be your heaviest users. It's nice to get some of the gaming and netflix traffic out of your airspace. On Mar 15, 2011 7:50pm, John Kaftan jkaf...@utica.edumailto:jkaf...@utica.edu wrote: Thanks, but I have purchased already. We will be doing this backwards. We
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost
Having done a Dorm Installation last week, let me add another point: 5 Ghz is great, but in some places you might want to skip the expense. We had no choice but to feed Dorm suites from the center hallway. After a thorough testing we came to the conclusion that we would only provide 802.11n at 2.4 GHz since too much of the 5 GHz signal was wasted. So instead of using Aruba AP-105 ($695 list) everywhere in that building, we settled for Aruba AP-93 ($395 list). With the savings, we did smaller cells to somewhat compensate for the lesser capacity. Each bedroom still has an ethernet drop (unfortunately unusable for APs for architectural reasons). Philippe Univ. of TN On Mar 22, 2011, at 3:38 PM, heath.barnhart wrote: If nothing else, you will have a documentation showing what your coverage is and can uncover any gotchas. If someone says they are having issues in an area, you pull up the survey and have instant access to more information to help uncover the reason behind their issues. Heath On 3/22/2011 2:11 PM, John Kaftan wrote: So I hate to dig this up again but nobody really responded to Jeff Sessler’s post “Given the need for designs based on capacity rather than coverage, do those who've done site surveys previously feel they are still worth the trouble?” Seems to me wireless surveys are for determining coverage which is something we can easily measure. We can require that an area will have no less than -68 dBm signal and do the survey to determine what it will take. However, if folks are saying that in a high density area like a ResHall just providing coverage is not enough and we must go much denser what good is the survey? If coverage is not enough then how do we determine our density? Is it just by feel? Up until now I figured I was not going to do a survey. I figured for the cost of the survey I could buy an additional 30-50 APs. When pulling wire I’d have facilities leave a 20’ coil and pull double the wire I originally guessed based on past experience. Then we would just “Throw it up” and see what happens. If we move slowly and do a ResHall at a time we should be able to get a feel for it. Now I have a shot at doing a survey this summer after the fact by using students from a nearby University that has a MS in Networking as an internship. The cost is much less than a professional survey but I have to ask if it is still worth it if capacity is what we are going for? Perhaps I should be looking at a different internship. There is certainly plenty to do around here. John Kaftan Infrastructure Manager Utica College 315.792.3102 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of John Kaftan Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:16 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost I have everyone held back to 2 Mbs on wireless. That seems to be a good number for now. Nobody is complaining and it helps to keep their experience consistent. They can watch a Netflix movie with that. I imagine Netflix would use more bandwidth if it could. I have not tested though. On 3/16/2011 6:28 PM, Brian Helman wrote: If people are building new dorms, I’d definitely run copper to any common rooms if you support any gaming consoles. Honestly though, we have a good density of wiring even in the dorms and I’m pretty close to shutting down or at least limiting the bandwidth available for video on the wireless network. Netflix, Flash and Youtube are killing it (not to mention our Internet connection). -Brian From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel Coehoorn Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 10:30 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost Agree I wouldn't run new port-per-pillow drops, but I wouldn't ditch existing drops (just update the switching) and anywhere you have apartment-style living I would put a wired port in the common space for game consoles/blu-ray/smart tvs/etc. Those who actually use the ports will be the few who know enough to know why it's better, and they also tend to be your heaviest users. It's nice to get some of the gaming and netflix traffic out of your airspace. On Mar 15, 2011 7:50pm, John Kaftan jkaf...@utica.edumailto:jkaf...@utica.edu wrote: Thanks, but I have purchased already. We will be doing this backwards. We are pulling extra drops and leaving 20' coils of cable above the ceilings and then throw up the APs and see what happens. Not perfect but we have been doing alright with that. We have a feel for it and the students report happiness. This summer we will do the survey to tighten things up a bit. I am considering dropping the wired ports as our LAN is past due for a refresh
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost
Wasted in what sense, Philippe? Residence halls are obviously high-density environments so capacity is a big concern, especially during peak usage periods. Even if the 5 GHz 11n channel can’t provide full coverage for the area under consideration, if it offloads even 25-30% of the 2.4 GHz 11n traffic, it seems like it would be worth the extra cost because it would result in better performance under heavy contention for both 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz users. Dave Molta On 3/22/11 3:59 PM, Hanset, Philippe C phan...@utk.edu wrote: Having done a Dorm Installation last week, let me add another point: 5 Ghz is great, but in some places you might want to skip the expense. We had no choice but to feed Dorm suites from the center hallway. After a thorough testing we came to the conclusion that we would only provide 802.11n at 2.4 GHz since too much of the 5 GHz signal was wasted. So instead of using Aruba AP-105 ($695 list) everywhere in that building, we settled for Aruba AP-93 ($395 list). With the savings, we did smaller cells to somewhat compensate for the lesser capacity. Each bedroom still has an ethernet drop (unfortunately unusable for APs for architectural reasons). Philippe Univ. of TN On Mar 22, 2011, at 3:38 PM, heath.barnhart wrote: If nothing else, you will have a documentation showing what your coverage is and can uncover any gotchas. If someone says they are having issues in an area, you pull up the survey and have instant access to more information to help uncover the reason behind their issues. Heath On 3/22/2011 2:11 PM, John Kaftan wrote: So I hate to dig this up again but nobody really responded to Jeff Sessler’s post “Given the need for designs based on capacity rather than coverage, do those who've done site surveys previously feel they are still worth the trouble?” Seems to me wireless surveys are for determining coverage which is something we can easily measure. We can require that an area will have no less than -68 dBm signal and do the survey to determine what it will take. However, if folks are saying that in a high density area like a ResHall just providing coverage is not enough and we must go much denser what good is the survey? If coverage is not enough then how do we determine our density? Is it just by feel? Up until now I figured I was not going to do a survey. I figured for the cost of the survey I could buy an additional 30-50 APs. When pulling wire I’d have facilities leave a 20’ coil and pull double the wire I originally guessed based on past experience. Then we would just “Throw it up” and see what happens. If we move slowly and do a ResHall at a time we should be able to get a feel for it. Now I have a shot at doing a survey this summer after the fact by using students from a nearby University that has a MS in Networking as an internship. The cost is much less than a professional survey but I have to ask if it is still worth it if capacity is what we are going for? Perhaps I should be looking at a different internship. There is certainly plenty to do around here. John Kaftan Infrastructure Manager Utica College 315.792.3102 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of John Kaftan Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:16 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost I have everyone held back to 2 Mbs on wireless. That seems to be a good number for now. Nobody is complaining and it helps to keep their experience consistent. They can watch a Netflix movie with that. I imagine Netflix would use more bandwidth if it could. I have not tested though. On 3/16/2011 6:28 PM, Brian Helman wrote: If people are building new dorms, I’d definitely run copper to any common rooms if you support any gaming consoles. Honestly though, we have a good density of wiring even in the dorms and I’m pretty close to shutting down or at least limiting the bandwidth available for video on the wireless network. Netflix, Flash and Youtube are killing it (not to mention our Internet connection). -Brian From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel Coehoorn Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 10:30 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost Agree I wouldn't run new port-per-pillow drops, but I wouldn't ditch existing drops (just update the switching) and anywhere you have apartment-style living I would put a wired port in the common space for game consoles/blu-ray/smart tvs/etc. Those who actually use the ports will be the few who know enough to know why it's better, and they also tend to be your heaviest users. It's nice to get some of the gaming and netflix traffic out of your airspace. On Mar 15, 2011 7:50pm, John Kaftan jkaf...@utica.edu mailto:jkaf...@utica.edu wrote: Thanks
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost
5 GHz was only usable in hallways (deserted) and the front part of suites (shower and restroom). Where users are present we were measuring -80 dBm or less at 5 GHz. That dorm doesn't have common areas. In common areas, it would make sense to use 5 GHz of course. The extra capacity is provided by providing smaller cells at 2.4 GHz. The other problem with weak 5GHz and stronger 2.4GHz is that devices (e.g. Macs!) do not join 5 GHz, even if available. Tricks like Bandwidth Steering can help this behavior, but not if the difference is too large between the 2 spectrums. BTW: If a large majority of users start watching Netflix in restrooms we will have to swap APs! Philippe On Mar 22, 2011, at 4:26 PM, David J Molta wrote: Wasted in what sense, Philippe? Residence halls are obviously high-density environments so capacity is a big concern, especially during peak usage periods. Even if the 5 GHz 11n channel can’t provide full coverage for the area under consideration, if it offloads even 25-30% of the 2.4 GHz 11n traffic, it seems like it would be worth the extra cost because it would result in better performance under heavy contention for both 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz users. Dave Molta On 3/22/11 3:59 PM, Hanset, Philippe C phan...@utk.edux-msg://2463/phan...@utk.edu wrote: Having done a Dorm Installation last week, let me add another point: 5 Ghz is great, but in some places you might want to skip the expense. We had no choice but to feed Dorm suites from the center hallway. After a thorough testing we came to the conclusion that we would only provide 802.11n at 2.4 GHz since too much of the 5 GHz signal was wasted. So instead of using Aruba AP-105 ($695 list) everywhere in that building, we settled for Aruba AP-93 ($395 list). With the savings, we did smaller cells to somewhat compensate for the lesser capacity. Each bedroom still has an ethernet drop (unfortunately unusable for APs for architectural reasons). Philippe Univ. of TN On Mar 22, 2011, at 3:38 PM, heath.barnhart wrote: If nothing else, you will have a documentation showing what your coverage is and can uncover any gotchas. If someone says they are having issues in an area, you pull up the survey and have instant access to more information to help uncover the reason behind their issues. Heath On 3/22/2011 2:11 PM, John Kaftan wrote: So I hate to dig this up again but nobody really responded to Jeff Sessler’s post “Given the need for designs based on capacity rather than coverage, do those who've done site surveys previously feel they are still worth the trouble?” Seems to me wireless surveys are for determining coverage which is something we can easily measure. We can require that an area will have no less than -68 dBm signal and do the survey to determine what it will take. However, if folks are saying that in a high density area like a ResHall just providing coverage is not enough and we must go much denser what good is the survey? If coverage is not enough then how do we determine our density? Is it just by feel? Up until now I figured I was not going to do a survey. I figured for the cost of the survey I could buy an additional 30-50 APs. When pulling wire I’d have facilities leave a 20’ coil and pull double the wire I originally guessed based on past experience. Then we would just “Throw it up” and see what happens. If we move slowly and do a ResHall at a time we should be able to get a feel for it. Now I have a shot at doing a survey this summer after the fact by using students from a nearby University that has a MS in Networking as an internship. The cost is much less than a professional survey but I have to ask if it is still worth it if capacity is what we are going for? Perhaps I should be looking at a different internship. There is certainly plenty to do around here. John Kaftan Infrastructure Manager Utica College 315.792.3102 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of John Kaftan Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:16 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUx-msg://2463/WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost I have everyone held back to 2 Mbs on wireless. That seems to be a good number for now. Nobody is complaining and it helps to keep their experience consistent. They can watch a Netflix movie with that. I imagine Netflix would use more bandwidth if it could. I have not tested though. On 3/16/2011 6:28 PM, Brian Helman wrote: If people are building new dorms, I’d definitely run copper to any common rooms if you support any gaming consoles. Honestly though, we have a good density of wiring even in the dorms and I’m pretty close to shutting down or at least limiting the bandwidth available for video on the wireless network. Netflix, Flash and Youtube are killing it (not to mention our Internet connection). -Brian From
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost
I don't want to market products here, but if you need capacity, single-radio AP's are not the way to go. If you are LUCKY, you'll get 35 people on an AP... and that doesn't take into account the wiring, PoE ports/injectors/WiringClosetElectric, enclosures (ignoring the rather lengthy thread from last week) and mounting. Surveys are very useful since construction and decor vary so much. I think I said this before though .. if you've settled on a vendor, get them to do the survey for free. It should be a part of the cost of buying the products (including guarantees). If you are going to do your own surveys, I'd highly recommend investing in a tripod with an extension pole. You need to get the AP's at/near the height they'll be installed and it's far easier than placing them on ceiling tiles. Just remember, when students are watching Netflix from their Androids and iPhones while in the library, you'll need that extra capacity ;) -Brian From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of John Kaftan [jkaf...@utica.edu] Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 3:11 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost So I hate to dig this up again but nobody really responded to Jeff Sessler’s post “Given the need for designs based on capacity rather than coverage, do those who've done site surveys previously feel they are still worth the trouble?” Seems to me wireless surveys are for determining coverage which is something we can easily measure. We can require that an area will have no less than -68 dBm signal and do the survey to determine what it will take. However, if folks are saying that in a high density area like a ResHall just providing coverage is not enough and we must go much denser what good is the survey? If coverage is not enough then how do we determine our density? Is it just by feel? Up until now I figured I was not going to do a survey. I figured for the cost of the survey I could buy an additional 30-50 APs. When pulling wire I’d have facilities leave a 20’ coil and pull double the wire I originally guessed based on past experience. Then we would just “Throw it up” and see what happens. If we move slowly and do a ResHall at a time we should be able to get a feel for it. Now I have a shot at doing a survey this summer after the fact by using students from a nearby University that has a MS in Networking as an internship. The cost is much less than a professional survey but I have to ask if it is still worth it if capacity is what we are going for? Perhaps I should be looking at a different internship. There is certainly plenty to do around here. John Kaftan Infrastructure Manager Utica College 315.792.3102 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of John Kaftan Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:16 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost I have everyone held back to 2 Mbs on wireless. That seems to be a good number for now. Nobody is complaining and it helps to keep their experience consistent. They can watch a Netflix movie with that. I imagine Netflix would use more bandwidth if it could. I have not tested though. On 3/16/2011 6:28 PM, Brian Helman wrote: If people are building new dorms, I’d definitely run copper to any common rooms if you support any gaming consoles. Honestly though, we have a good density of wiring even in the dorms and I’m pretty close to shutting down or at least limiting the bandwidth available for video on the wireless network. Netflix, Flash and Youtube are killing it (not to mention our Internet connection). -Brian From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel Coehoorn Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 10:30 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDUmailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost Agree I wouldn't run new port-per-pillow drops, but I wouldn't ditch existing drops (just update the switching) and anywhere you have apartment-style living I would put a wired port in the common space for game consoles/blu-ray/smart tvs/etc. Those who actually use the ports will be the few who know enough to know why it's better, and they also tend to be your heaviest users. It's nice to get some of the gaming and netflix traffic out of your airspace. On Mar 15, 2011 7:50pm, John Kaftan jkaf...@utica.edumailto:jkaf...@utica.edu wrote: Thanks, but I have purchased already. We will be doing this backwards. We are pulling extra drops and leaving 20' coils of cable above the ceilings and then throw up the APs and see what happens. Not perfect but we have been doing alright with that. We have a feel
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost
I second that emotion. Pete Morrissey From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel Coehoorn Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 10:30 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost Agree I wouldn't run new port-per-pillow drops, but I wouldn't ditch existing drops (just update the switching) and anywhere you have apartment-style living I would put a wired port in the common space for game consoles/blu-ray/smart tvs/etc. Those who actually use the ports will be the few who know enough to know why it's better, and they also tend to be your heaviest users. It's nice to get some of the gaming and netflix traffic out of your airspace. On Mar 15, 2011 7:50pm, John Kaftan jkaf...@utica.edu wrote: Thanks, but I have purchased already. We will be doing this backwards. We are pulling extra drops and leaving 20' coils of cable above the ceilings and then throw up the APs and see what happens. Not perfect but we have been doing alright with that. We have a feel for it and the students report happiness. This summer we will do the survey to tighten things up a bit. I am considering dropping the wired ports as our LAN is past due for a refresh and I do not want to re-invest in the port-per-pillow model. John On 3/15/2011 7:09 PM, Brian Helman wrote: Have you already selected a wireless product? If not, I think you'd be far better served issuing an RFP for full procurement and installation, with signal guarantees (I'd recommend -68dBm). If you have holes, the contract should be on the hook for it. Take advantage of this economy. Vendors will jump on this. Remember, antennas vary GREATLY. If you do a survey and then bid out and end up with a different product than you conducted the survey with, you could end up with holes. -Brian From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of heath.barnhart [heath.barnh...@washburn.edu] Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 9:57 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost If you have any resellers/technology partners/consultants you might ask them. Standard consultant fees would probably apply (I've seen $150-$300/hour). If they're good they should be able to survey a couple buildings in a day (which should be less than $1500 a floor). You could also do it yourself. Someone mentioned Ekahau; we use Airmagnet Survey. Its good too have a survey solution for troubleshooting anyways. -- Heath Barnhart, CCNA Network Administrator Information Systems and Services Washburn University Topeka, KS 66621 On 3/14/2011 4:46 PM, Winston Chow wrote: Usually companies don't like to do site surveys because they do it assuming you'll buy APs from them. If anything I found that companies will do it for a lot of money but give you a significant credit if you buy APs/controllers/service from them. That doesn't work with our procurement system that needs 3 lowest bidders. Good Luck! -Winston On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 6:41 AM, John Kaftanjkaftan@utica.edumailto:jkaf...@utica.edu wrote: I know this is a crazy question with tons of variables but I am trying to at least get an idea of what it would cost to do a wireless survey in our residence halls. We have 7 buildings built over the years with a variety of construction materials. Each building has 3-4 floors. We have a total of 1100 students living on campus. Has anyone had a commercial wireless survey done and if so can you give me any idea of what I would be looking at? My intention is to do this via an Internship so I do not really want to shop this out and put vendors through the paces. I just want to give an estimate of what it would cost the college if we were to have a commercial provider do the work. John Kaftan Infrastructure Manager Utica College 315.792.3102 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. -- Heath Barnhart, CCNA Network Administrator Information Systems and Services Washburn University Topeka, KS 66621 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost
So let me ask this... Given the need for designs based on capacity rather than coverage, do those who've done site surveys previously feel they are still worth the trouble? When we deployed, we based our coverage on capacity which resulted in AP's no more than 50' apart in general areas, and classroom deployment based on room capacity (1 dual-radio AP for 12, 2 for 24, etc.). As such, I've yet to find a coverage hole in either 2.4GHz or 5GHz, and the idea of doing a site survey, while so important in the days of coverage planning, now seems unnecessary. Thoughts? best, Jeff John Kaftan jkaf...@utica.edu 3/15/2011 5:50 PM Thanks, but I have purchased already. We will be doing this backwards. We are pulling extra drops and leaving 20' coils of cable above the ceilings and then throw up the APs and see what happens. Not perfect but we have been doing alright with that. We have a feel for it and the students report happiness. This summer we will do the survey to tighten things up a bit. I am considering dropping the wired ports as our LAN is past due for a refresh and I do not want to re-invest in the port-per-pillow model. John On 3/15/2011 7:09 PM, Brian Helman wrote: Have you already selected a wireless product? If not, I think you'd be far better served issuing an RFP for full procurement and installation, with signal guarantees (I'd recommend -68dBm). If you have holes, the contract should be on the hook for it. Take advantage of this economy. Vendors will jump on this. Remember, antennas vary GREATLY. If you do a survey and then bid out and end up with a different product than you conducted the survey with, you could end up with holes. -Brian From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of heath.barnhart [heath.barnh...@washburn.edu] Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 9:57 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost If you have any resellers/technology partners/consultants you might ask them. Standard consultant fees would probably apply (I've seen $150-$300/hour). If they're good they should be able to survey a couple buildings in a day (which should be less than $1500 a floor). You could also do it yourself. Someone mentioned Ekahau; we use Airmagnet Survey. Its good too have a survey solution for troubleshooting anyways. -- Heath Barnhart, CCNA Network Administrator Information Systems and Services Washburn University Topeka, KS 66621 On 3/14/2011 4:46 PM, Winston Chow wrote: Usually companies don't like to do site surveys because they do it assuming you'll buy APs from them. If anything I found that companies will do it for a lot of money but give you a significant credit if you buy APs/controllers/service from them. That doesn't work with our procurement system that needs 3 lowest bidders. Good Luck! -Winston On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 6:41 AM, John Kaftanjkaf...@utica.edumailto:jkaf...@utica.edu wrote: I know this is a crazy question with tons of variables but I am trying to at least get an idea of what it would cost to do a wireless survey in our residence halls. We have 7 buildings built over the years with a variety of construction materials. Each building has 3-4 floors. We have a total of 1100 students living on campus. Has anyone had a commercial wireless survey done and if so can you give me any idea of what I would be looking at? My intention is to do this via an Internship so I do not really want to shop this out and put vendors through the paces. I just want to give an estimate of what it would cost the college if we were to have a commercial provider do the work. John Kaftan Infrastructure Manager Utica College 315.792.3102 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. -- Heath Barnhart, CCNA Network Administrator Information Systems and Services Washburn University Topeka, KS 66621 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost
I don't believe there is any cookie-cutter answer anyone can give. All of our designs are likely variant due to the needs of wireless. Surveys/designs should be performed in accordance to what applications you plan to leverage. If you're deploying a dense VoWLAN deployment, requirements are different than that of simple coverage. Wireless in auditoriums, etc., will require a completely different design. I'd recommend identifying your requirements then coming up your strategy for surveying/design. For the majority of our locations, coverage is the primary requirements, so we perform active surveys of those locations, ensuring that the 2.4GHz design conforms to the 5GHz design. . . . my two cents. == Ryan Holland Network Engineer, Wireless Office of the Chief Information Officer The Ohio State University 614-292-9906 holland@osu.edu On Mar 16, 2011, at 2:50 PM, Jeffrey Sessler wrote: So let me ask this... Given the need for designs based on capacity rather than coverage, do those who've done site surveys previously feel they are still worth the trouble? When we deployed, we based our coverage on capacity which resulted in AP's no more than 50' apart in general areas, and classroom deployment based on room capacity (1 dual-radio AP for 12, 2 for 24, etc.). As such, I've yet to find a coverage hole in either 2.4GHz or 5GHz, and the idea of doing a site survey, while so important in the days of coverage planning, now seems unnecessary. Thoughts? best, Jeff John Kaftan jkaf...@utica.edu 3/15/2011 5:50 PM Thanks, but I have purchased already. We will be doing this backwards. We are pulling extra drops and leaving 20' coils of cable above the ceilings and then throw up the APs and see what happens. Not perfect but we have been doing alright with that. We have a feel for it and the students report happiness. This summer we will do the survey to tighten things up a bit. I am considering dropping the wired ports as our LAN is past due for a refresh and I do not want to re-invest in the port-per-pillow model. John On 3/15/2011 7:09 PM, Brian Helman wrote: Have you already selected a wireless product? If not, I think you'd be far better served issuing an RFP for full procurement and installation, with signal guarantees (I'd recommend -68dBm). If you have holes, the contract should be on the hook for it. Take advantage of this economy. Vendors will jump on this. Remember, antennas vary GREATLY. If you do a survey and then bid out and end up with a different product than you conducted the survey with, you could end up with holes. -Brian From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of heath.barnhart [heath.barnh...@washburn.edu] Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 9:57 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost If you have any resellers/technology partners/consultants you might ask them. Standard consultant fees would probably apply (I've seen $150-$300/hour). If they're good they should be able to survey a couple buildings in a day (which should be less than $1500 a floor). You could also do it yourself. Someone mentioned Ekahau; we use Airmagnet Survey. Its good too have a survey solution for troubleshooting anyways. -- Heath Barnhart, CCNA Network Administrator Information Systems and Services Washburn University Topeka, KS 66621 On 3/14/2011 4:46 PM, Winston Chow wrote: Usually companies don't like to do site surveys because they do it assuming you'll buy APs from them. If anything I found that companies will do it for a lot of money but give you a significant credit if you buy APs/controllers/service from them. That doesn't work with our procurement system that needs 3 lowest bidders. Good Luck! -Winston On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 6:41 AM, John Kaftanjkaf...@utica.edumailto:jkaf...@utica.edu wrote: I know this is a crazy question with tons of variables but I am trying to at least get an idea of what it would cost to do a wireless survey in our residence halls. We have 7 buildings built over the years with a variety of construction materials. Each building has 3-4 floors. We have a total of 1100 students living on campus. Has anyone had a commercial wireless survey done and if so can you give me any idea of what I would be looking at? My intention is to do this via an Internship so I do not really want to shop this out and put vendors through the paces. I just want to give an estimate of what it would cost the college if we were to have a commercial provider do the work. John Kaftan Infrastructure Manager Utica College 315.792.3102 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost
If people are building new dorms, I'd definitely run copper to any common rooms if you support any gaming consoles. Honestly though, we have a good density of wiring even in the dorms and I'm pretty close to shutting down or at least limiting the bandwidth available for video on the wireless network. Netflix, Flash and Youtube are killing it (not to mention our Internet connection). -Brian From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel Coehoorn Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 10:30 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost Agree I wouldn't run new port-per-pillow drops, but I wouldn't ditch existing drops (just update the switching) and anywhere you have apartment-style living I would put a wired port in the common space for game consoles/blu-ray/smart tvs/etc. Those who actually use the ports will be the few who know enough to know why it's better, and they also tend to be your heaviest users. It's nice to get some of the gaming and netflix traffic out of your airspace. On Mar 15, 2011 7:50pm, John Kaftan jkaf...@utica.edu wrote: Thanks, but I have purchased already. We will be doing this backwards. We are pulling extra drops and leaving 20' coils of cable above the ceilings and then throw up the APs and see what happens. Not perfect but we have been doing alright with that. We have a feel for it and the students report happiness. This summer we will do the survey to tighten things up a bit. I am considering dropping the wired ports as our LAN is past due for a refresh and I do not want to re-invest in the port-per-pillow model. John On 3/15/2011 7:09 PM, Brian Helman wrote: Have you already selected a wireless product? If not, I think you'd be far better served issuing an RFP for full procurement and installation, with signal guarantees (I'd recommend -68dBm). If you have holes, the contract should be on the hook for it. Take advantage of this economy. Vendors will jump on this. Remember, antennas vary GREATLY. If you do a survey and then bid out and end up with a different product than you conducted the survey with, you could end up with holes. -Brian From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of heath.barnhart [heath.barnh...@washburn.edu] Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 9:57 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost If you have any resellers/technology partners/consultants you might ask them. Standard consultant fees would probably apply (I've seen $150-$300/hour). If they're good they should be able to survey a couple buildings in a day (which should be less than $1500 a floor). You could also do it yourself. Someone mentioned Ekahau; we use Airmagnet Survey. Its good too have a survey solution for troubleshooting anyways. -- Heath Barnhart, CCNA Network Administrator Information Systems and Services Washburn University Topeka, KS 66621 On 3/14/2011 4:46 PM, Winston Chow wrote: Usually companies don't like to do site surveys because they do it assuming you'll buy APs from them. If anything I found that companies will do it for a lot of money but give you a significant credit if you buy APs/controllers/service from them. That doesn't work with our procurement system that needs 3 lowest bidders. Good Luck! -Winston On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 6:41 AM, John Kaftanjkaftan@utica.edumailto:jkaf...@utica.edu wrote: I know this is a crazy question with tons of variables but I am trying to at least get an idea of what it would cost to do a wireless survey in our residence halls. We have 7 buildings built over the years with a variety of construction materials. Each building has 3-4 floors. We have a total of 1100 students living on campus. Has anyone had a commercial wireless survey done and if so can you give me any idea of what I would be looking at? My intention is to do this via an Internship so I do not really want to shop this out and put vendors through the paces. I just want to give an estimate of what it would cost the college if we were to have a commercial provider do the work. John Kaftan Infrastructure Manager Utica College 315.792.3102 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. -- Heath Barnhart, CCNA Network Administrator Information Systems and Services Washburn University Topeka, KS 66621 ** Participation
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost
I have everyone held back to 2 Mbs on wireless. That seems to be a good number for now. Nobody is complaining and it helps to keep their experience consistent. They can watch a Netflix movie with that. I imagine Netflix would use more bandwidth if it could. I have not tested though. On 3/16/2011 6:28 PM, Brian Helman wrote: If people are building new dorms, I'd definitely run copper to any common rooms if you support any gaming consoles. Honestly though, we have a good density of wiring even in the dorms and I'm pretty close to shutting down or at least limiting the bandwidth available for video on the wireless network. Netflix, Flash and Youtube are killing it (not to mention our Internet connection). -Brian *From:*The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] *On Behalf Of *Joel Coehoorn *Sent:* Tuesday, March 15, 2011 10:30 PM *To:* WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU *Subject:* Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost Agree I wouldn't run new port-per-pillow drops, but I wouldn't ditch existing drops (just update the switching) and anywhere you have apartment-style living I would put a wired port in the common space for game consoles/blu-ray/smart tvs/etc. Those who actually use the ports will be the few who know enough to know why it's better, and they also tend to be your heaviest users. It's nice to get some of the gaming and netflix traffic out of your airspace. On Mar 15, 2011 7:50pm, John Kaftan jkaf...@utica.edu wrote: Thanks, but I have purchased already. We will be doing this backwards. We are pulling extra drops and leaving 20' coils of cable above the ceilings and then throw up the APs and see what happens. Not perfect but we have been doing alright with that. We have a feel for it and the students report happiness. This summer we will do the survey to tighten things up a bit. I am considering dropping the wired ports as our LAN is past due for a refresh and I do not want to re-invest in the port-per-pillow model. John On 3/15/2011 7:09 PM, Brian Helman wrote: Have you already selected a wireless product? If not, I think you'd be far better served issuing an RFP for full procurement and installation, with signal guarantees (I'd recommend -68dBm). If you have holes, the contract should be on the hook for it. Take advantage of this economy. Vendors will jump on this. Remember, antennas vary GREATLY. If you do a survey and then bid out and end up with a different product than you conducted the survey with, you could end up with holes. -Brian From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of heath.barnhart [heath.barnh...@washburn.edu] Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 9:57 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost If you have any resellers/technology partners/consultants you might ask them. Standard consultant fees would probably apply (I've seen $150-$300/hour). If they're good they should be able to survey a couple buildings in a day (which should be less than $1500 a floor). You could also do it yourself. Someone mentioned Ekahau; we use Airmagnet Survey. Its good too have a survey solution for troubleshooting anyways. -- Heath Barnhart, CCNA Network Administrator Information Systems and Services Washburn University Topeka, KS 66621 On 3/14/2011 4:46 PM, Winston Chow wrote: Usually companies don't like to do site surveys because they do it assuming you'll buy APs from them. If anything I found that companies will do it for a lot of money but give you a significant credit if you buy APs/controllers/service from them. That doesn't work with our procurement system that needs 3 lowest bidders. Good Luck! -Winston On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 6:41 AM, John Kaftanjkaftan@utica.edumailto:jkaf...@utica.edu wrote: I know this is a crazy question with tons of variables but I am trying to at least get an idea of what it would cost to do a wireless survey in our residence halls. We have 7 buildings built over the years with a variety of construction materials. Each building has 3-4 floors. We have a total of 1100 students living on campus. Has anyone had a commercial wireless survey done and if so can you give me any idea of what I would be looking at? My intention is to do this via an Internship so I do not really want to shop this out and put vendors through the paces. I just want to give an estimate of what it would cost the college if we were to have a commercial provider do the work. John Kaftan Infrastructure Manager Utica College 315.792.3102 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost
If you have any resellers/technology partners/consultants you might ask them. Standard consultant fees would probably apply (I've seen $150-$300/hour). If they're good they should be able to survey a couple buildings in a day (which should be less than $1500 a floor). You could also do it yourself. Someone mentioned Ekahau; we use Airmagnet Survey. Its good too have a survey solution for troubleshooting anyways. -- Heath Barnhart, CCNA Network Administrator Information Systems and Services Washburn University Topeka, KS 66621 On 3/14/2011 4:46 PM, Winston Chow wrote: Usually companies don't like to do site surveys because they do it assuming you'll buy APs from them. If anything I found that companies will do it for a lot of money but give you a significant credit if you buy APs/controllers/service from them. That doesn't work with our procurement system that needs 3 lowest bidders. Good Luck! -Winston On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 6:41 AM, John Kaftan jkaf...@utica.edu mailto:jkaf...@utica.edu wrote: I know this is a crazy question with tons of variables but I am trying to at least get an idea of what it would cost to do a wireless survey in our residence halls. We have 7 buildings built over the years with a variety of construction materials. Each building has 3-4 floors. We have a total of 1100 students living on campus. Has anyone had a commercial wireless survey done and if so can you give me any idea of what I would be looking at? My intention is to do this via an Internship so I do not really want to shop this out and put vendors through the paces. I just want to give an estimate of what it would cost the college if we were to have a commercial provider do the work. John Kaftan Infrastructure Manager Utica College 315.792.3102 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. -- Heath Barnhart, CCNA Network Administrator Information Systems and Services Washburn University Topeka, KS 66621 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost
Have you already selected a wireless product? If not, I think you'd be far better served issuing an RFP for full procurement and installation, with signal guarantees (I'd recommend -68dBm). If you have holes, the contract should be on the hook for it. Take advantage of this economy. Vendors will jump on this. Remember, antennas vary GREATLY. If you do a survey and then bid out and end up with a different product than you conducted the survey with, you could end up with holes. -Brian From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of heath.barnhart [heath.barnh...@washburn.edu] Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 9:57 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost If you have any resellers/technology partners/consultants you might ask them. Standard consultant fees would probably apply (I've seen $150-$300/hour). If they're good they should be able to survey a couple buildings in a day (which should be less than $1500 a floor). You could also do it yourself. Someone mentioned Ekahau; we use Airmagnet Survey. Its good too have a survey solution for troubleshooting anyways. -- Heath Barnhart, CCNA Network Administrator Information Systems and Services Washburn University Topeka, KS 66621 On 3/14/2011 4:46 PM, Winston Chow wrote: Usually companies don't like to do site surveys because they do it assuming you'll buy APs from them. If anything I found that companies will do it for a lot of money but give you a significant credit if you buy APs/controllers/service from them. That doesn't work with our procurement system that needs 3 lowest bidders. Good Luck! -Winston On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 6:41 AM, John Kaftan jkaf...@utica.edumailto:jkaf...@utica.edu wrote: I know this is a crazy question with tons of variables but I am trying to at least get an idea of what it would cost to do a wireless survey in our residence halls. We have 7 buildings built over the years with a variety of construction materials. Each building has 3-4 floors. We have a total of 1100 students living on campus. Has anyone had a commercial wireless survey done and if so can you give me any idea of what I would be looking at? My intention is to do this via an Internship so I do not really want to shop this out and put vendors through the paces. I just want to give an estimate of what it would cost the college if we were to have a commercial provider do the work. John Kaftan Infrastructure Manager Utica College 315.792.3102 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. -- Heath Barnhart, CCNA Network Administrator Information Systems and Services Washburn University Topeka, KS 66621 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost
Thanks, but I have purchased already. We will be doing this backwards. We are pulling extra drops and leaving 20' coils of cable above the ceilings and then throw up the APs and see what happens. Not perfect but we have been doing alright with that. We have a feel for it and the students report happiness. This summer we will do the survey to tighten things up a bit. I am considering dropping the wired ports as our LAN is past due for a refresh and I do not want to re-invest in the port-per-pillow model. John On 3/15/2011 7:09 PM, Brian Helman wrote: Have you already selected a wireless product? If not, I think you'd be far better served issuing an RFP for full procurement and installation, with signal guarantees (I'd recommend -68dBm). If you have holes, the contract should be on the hook for it. Take advantage of this economy. Vendors will jump on this. Remember, antennas vary GREATLY. If you do a survey and then bid out and end up with a different product than you conducted the survey with, you could end up with holes. -Brian From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of heath.barnhart [heath.barnh...@washburn.edu] Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 9:57 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost If you have any resellers/technology partners/consultants you might ask them. Standard consultant fees would probably apply (I've seen $150-$300/hour). If they're good they should be able to survey a couple buildings in a day (which should be less than $1500 a floor). You could also do it yourself. Someone mentioned Ekahau; we use Airmagnet Survey. Its good too have a survey solution for troubleshooting anyways. -- Heath Barnhart, CCNA Network Administrator Information Systems and Services Washburn University Topeka, KS 66621 On 3/14/2011 4:46 PM, Winston Chow wrote: Usually companies don't like to do site surveys because they do it assuming you'll buy APs from them. If anything I found that companies will do it for a lot of money but give you a significant credit if you buy APs/controllers/service from them. That doesn't work with our procurement system that needs 3 lowest bidders. Good Luck! -Winston On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 6:41 AM, John Kaftanjkaf...@utica.edumailto:jkaf...@utica.edu wrote: I know this is a crazy question with tons of variables but I am trying to at least get an idea of what it would cost to do a wireless survey in our residence halls. We have 7 buildings built over the years with a variety of construction materials. Each building has 3-4 floors. We have a total of 1100 students living on campus. Has anyone had a commercial wireless survey done and if so can you give me any idea of what I would be looking at? My intention is to do this via an Internship so I do not really want to shop this out and put vendors through the paces. I just want to give an estimate of what it would cost the college if we were to have a commercial provider do the work. John Kaftan Infrastructure Manager Utica College 315.792.3102 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. -- Heath Barnhart, CCNA Network Administrator Information Systems and Services Washburn University Topeka, KS 66621 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost
Dear John You can buy the Ekahau Site survey card (including the software). It's around 5000$, and you can do the site survey by yourself. The only thing you need is configuring a stand along AP, and use it in the site survey. Yours, Linchuan Yang (Antony) Wireless Networking Analyst Network Assessment and Integration, IITS-Concordia University Tel: (514)848-2424 ext. 7664 _ From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of John Kaftan Sent: March 14, 2011 12:42 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost I know this is a crazy question with tons of variables but I am trying to at least get an idea of what it would cost to do a wireless survey in our residence halls. We have 7 buildings built over the years with a variety of construction materials. Each building has 3-4 floors. We have a total of 1100 students living on campus. Has anyone had a commercial wireless survey done and if so can you give me any idea of what I would be looking at? My intention is to do this via an Internship so I do not really want to shop this out and put vendors through the paces. I just want to give an estimate of what it would cost the college if we were to have a commercial provider do the work. John Kaftan Infrastructure Manager Utica College 315.792.3102 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost
The last one I had done via a commerical provider was over 6 years ago. It cost us around $2000-$3000. For one floor. He showed up with the Ekahau software. The software itself costs $2000-$3000 dollars. We just bought it and had a student worker do the rest of our buildings. On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 12:41 PM, John Kaftan jkaf...@utica.edu wrote: I know this is a crazy question with tons of variables but I am trying to at least get an idea of what it would cost to do a wireless survey in our residence halls. We have 7 buildings built over the years with a variety of construction materials. Each building has 3-4 floors. We have a total of 1100 students living on campus. Has anyone had a commercial wireless survey done and if so can you give me any idea of what I would be looking at? My intention is to do this via an Internship so I do not really want to shop this out and put vendors through the paces. I just want to give an estimate of what it would cost the college if we were to have a commercial provider do the work. John Kaftan Infrastructure Manager Utica College 315.792.3102 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost
I'll do it for $1500 a floor! -Lee From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Mike King [m...@mpking.com] Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 2:03 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost The last one I had done via a commerical provider was over 6 years ago. It cost us around $2000-$3000. For one floor. He showed up with the Ekahau software. The software itself costs $2000-$3000 dollars. We just bought it and had a student worker do the rest of our buildings. On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 12:41 PM, John Kaftan jkaf...@utica.edumailto:jkaf...@utica.edu wrote: I know this is a crazy question with tons of variables but I am trying to at least get an idea of what it would cost to do a wireless survey in our residence halls. We have 7 buildings built over the years with a variety of construction materials. Each building has 3-4 floors. We have a total of 1100 students living on campus. Has anyone had a commercial wireless survey done and if so can you give me any idea of what I would be looking at? My intention is to do this via an Internship so I do not really want to shop this out and put vendors through the paces. I just want to give an estimate of what it would cost the college if we were to have a commercial provider do the work. John Kaftan Infrastructure Manager Utica College 315.792.3102tel:315.792.3102 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.comhttp://www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1498/3506 - Release Date: 03/14/11 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost
Usually companies don't like to do site surveys because they do it assuming you'll buy APs from them. If anything I found that companies will do it for a lot of money but give you a significant credit if you buy APs/controllers/service from them. That doesn't work with our procurement system that needs 3 lowest bidders. Good Luck! -Winston On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 6:41 AM, John Kaftan jkaf...@utica.edu wrote: I know this is a crazy question with tons of variables but I am trying to at least get an idea of what it would cost to do a wireless survey in our residence halls. We have 7 buildings built over the years with a variety of construction materials. Each building has 3-4 floors. We have a total of 1100 students living on campus. Has anyone had a commercial wireless survey done and if so can you give me any idea of what I would be looking at? My intention is to do this via an Internship so I do not really want to shop this out and put vendors through the paces. I just want to give an estimate of what it would cost the college if we were to have a commercial provider do the work. John Kaftan Infrastructure Manager Utica College 315.792.3102 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
