RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

[Linchuan Yang]

Dear John

 

You can buy the Ekahau Site survey card (including the software). It's
around 5000$, and you can do the site survey by yourself. The only thing you
need is configuring a stand along AP, and use it in the site survey.

 

Yours,

Linchuan Yang (Antony)

Wireless Networking Analyst
Network Assessment and Integration,
IITS-Concordia University
Tel: (514)848-2424 ext. 7664

  _  

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv
[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of John Kaftan
Sent: March 14, 2011 12:42 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

 

I know this is a crazy question with tons of variables but I am trying to at
least get an idea of what it would cost to do a wireless survey in our
residence halls.  We have 7 buildings built over the years with a variety of
construction materials.  Each building has 3-4 floors.  We have a total of
1100 students living on campus.  

 

Has anyone had a commercial wireless survey done and if so can you give me
any idea of what I would be looking at?

 

My intention is to do this via an Internship so I do not really want to shop
this out and put vendors through the paces.  I just want to give an estimate
of what it would cost the college if we were to have a commercial provider
do the work.

 

John Kaftan 

Infrastructure Manager

Utica College

315.792.3102

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/. 



**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group 
discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

[Mike King]

The last one I had done via a commerical provider was over 6 years ago.  It
cost us around $2000-$3000.  For one floor.  He showed up with the Ekahau
software.

The software itself costs $2000-$3000 dollars.   We just bought it and had a
student worker do the rest of our buildings.

On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 12:41 PM, John Kaftan  wrote:

>  I know this is a crazy question with tons of variables but I am trying to
> at least get an idea of what it would cost to do a wireless survey in our
> residence halls.  We have 7 buildings built over the years with a variety of
> construction materials.  Each building has 3-4 floors.  We have a total of
> 1100 students living on campus.
>
>
>
> Has anyone had a commercial wireless survey done and if so can you give me
> any idea of what I would be looking at?
>
>
>
> My intention is to do this via an Internship so I do not really want to
> shop this out and put vendors through the paces.  I just want to give an
> estimate of what it would cost the college if we were to have a commercial
> provider do the work.
>
>
>
> John Kaftan
>
> Infrastructure Manager
>
> Utica College
>
> 315.792.3102
>  ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
> Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
> http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
>
>

**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group 
discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

[Lee H Badman]

I'll do it for $1500 a floor!

-Lee

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
[WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Mike King [m...@mpking.com]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 2:03 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

The last one I had done via a commerical provider was over 6 years ago.  It 
cost us around $2000-$3000.  For one floor.  He showed up with the Ekahau 
software.

The software itself costs $2000-$3000 dollars.   We just bought it and had a 
student worker do the rest of our buildings.

On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 12:41 PM, John Kaftan 
mailto:jkaf...@utica.edu>> wrote:
I know this is a crazy question with tons of variables but I am trying to at 
least get an idea of what it would cost to do a wireless survey in our 
residence halls.  We have 7 buildings built over the years with a variety of 
construction materials.  Each building has 3-4 floors.  We have a total of 1100 
students living on campus.

Has anyone had a commercial wireless survey done and if so can you give me any 
idea of what I would be looking at?

My intention is to do this via an Internship so I do not really want to shop 
this out and put vendors through the paces.  I just want to give an estimate of 
what it would cost the college if we were to have a commercial provider do the 
work.

John Kaftan
Infrastructure Manager
Utica College
315.792.3102
** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE 
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at 
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE 
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at 
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.



No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com>
Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1498/3506 - Release Date: 03/14/11

**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group 
discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

[Winston Chow]

Usually companies don't like to do site surveys because they do it assuming
you'll buy APs from them.  If anything I found that companies will do it for
a lot of money but give you a significant credit if you buy
APs/controllers/service from them.

That doesn't work with our procurement system that needs 3 lowest bidders.

Good Luck!

-Winston



On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 6:41 AM, John Kaftan  wrote:

>  I know this is a crazy question with tons of variables but I am trying to
> at least get an idea of what it would cost to do a wireless survey in our
> residence halls.  We have 7 buildings built over the years with a variety of
> construction materials.  Each building has 3-4 floors.  We have a total of
> 1100 students living on campus.
>
>
>
> Has anyone had a commercial wireless survey done and if so can you give me
> any idea of what I would be looking at?
>
>
>
> My intention is to do this via an Internship so I do not really want to
> shop this out and put vendors through the paces.  I just want to give an
> estimate of what it would cost the college if we were to have a commercial
> provider do the work.
>
>
>
> John Kaftan
>
> Infrastructure Manager
>
> Utica College
>
> 315.792.3102
>  ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
> Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
> http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
>
>

**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group 
discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

[heath.barnhart]

If you have any resellers/technology partners/consultants you might ask 
them. Standard consultant fees would probably apply (I've seen 
$150-$300/hour). If they're good they should be able to survey a couple 
buildings in a day (which should be less than $1500 a floor). You could 
also do it yourself. Someone mentioned Ekahau; we use Airmagnet Survey. 
Its good too have a survey solution for troubleshooting anyways.


--
Heath Barnhart, CCNA
Network Administrator
Information Systems and Services
Washburn University
Topeka, KS 66621



On 3/14/2011 4:46 PM, Winston Chow wrote:
Usually companies don't like to do site surveys because they do it 
assuming you'll buy APs from them.  If anything I found that companies 
will do it for a lot of money but give you a significant credit if you 
buy APs/controllers/service from them.


That doesn't work with our procurement system that needs 3 lowest bidders.

Good Luck!

-Winston



On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 6:41 AM, John Kaftan > wrote:


I know this is a crazy question with tons of variables but I am
trying to at least get an idea of what it would cost to do a
wireless survey in our residence halls.  We have 7 buildings built
over the years with a variety of construction materials.  Each
building has 3-4 floors.  We have a total of 1100 students living
on campus.

Has anyone had a commercial wireless survey done and if so can you
give me any idea of what I would be looking at?

My intention is to do this via an Internship so I do not really
want to shop this out and put vendors through the paces.  I just
want to give an estimate of what it would cost the college if we
were to have a commercial provider do the work.

John Kaftan

Infrastructure Manager

Utica College

315.792.3102

** Participation and subscription information for this
EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.


** Participation and subscription information for this 
EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at 
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.





--
Heath Barnhart, CCNA
Network Administrator
Information Systems and Services
Washburn University
Topeka, KS 66621


**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group 
discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

[Brian Helman]

Have you already selected a wireless product?  If not, I think you'd be far 
better served issuing an RFP for full procurement and installation, with signal 
guarantees (I'd recommend -68dBm).  If you have holes, the contract should be 
on the hook for it.  Take advantage of this economy.  Vendors will jump on this.

Remember, antennas vary GREATLY.  If you do a survey and then bid out and end 
up with a different product than you conducted the survey with, you could end 
up with holes.

-Brian

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
[WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of heath.barnhart 
[heath.barnh...@washburn.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 9:57 AM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

If you have any resellers/technology partners/consultants you might ask them. 
Standard consultant fees would probably apply (I've seen $150-$300/hour). If 
they're good they should be able to survey a couple buildings in a day (which 
should be less than $1500 a floor). You could also do it yourself. Someone 
mentioned Ekahau; we use Airmagnet Survey. Its good too have a survey solution 
for troubleshooting anyways.


--
Heath Barnhart, CCNA
Network Administrator
Information Systems and Services
Washburn University
Topeka, KS 66621


On 3/14/2011 4:46 PM, Winston Chow wrote:
Usually companies don't like to do site surveys because they do it assuming 
you'll buy APs from them.  If anything I found that companies will do it for a 
lot of money but give you a significant credit if you buy 
APs/controllers/service from them.

That doesn't work with our procurement system that needs 3 lowest bidders.

Good Luck!

-Winston



On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 6:41 AM, John Kaftan 
mailto:jkaf...@utica.edu>> wrote:
I know this is a crazy question with tons of variables but I am trying to at 
least get an idea of what it would cost to do a wireless survey in our 
residence halls.  We have 7 buildings built over the years with a variety of 
construction materials.  Each building has 3-4 floors.  We have a total of 1100 
students living on campus.

Has anyone had a commercial wireless survey done and if so can you give me any 
idea of what I would be looking at?

My intention is to do this via an Internship so I do not really want to shop 
this out and put vendors through the paces.  I just want to give an estimate of 
what it would cost the college if we were to have a commercial provider do the 
work.

John Kaftan
Infrastructure Manager
Utica College
315.792.3102
** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE 
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at 
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE 
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at 
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.



--
Heath Barnhart, CCNA
Network Administrator
Information Systems and Services
Washburn University
Topeka, KS 66621

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE 
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at 
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group 
discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

[John Kaftan]

Thanks, but I have purchased already.  We will be doing this backwards.  
We are pulling extra drops and leaving 20' coils of cable above the 
ceilings and then throw up the APs and see what happens.  Not perfect 
but we have been doing alright with that.  We have a feel for it and the 
students report happiness.  This summer we will do the survey to tighten 
things up a bit.  I am considering dropping the wired ports as our LAN 
is past due for a refresh and I do not want to re-invest in the 
port-per-pillow model.


John

On 3/15/2011 7:09 PM, Brian Helman wrote:

Have you already selected a wireless product?  If not, I think you'd be far 
better served issuing an RFP for full procurement and installation, with signal 
guarantees (I'd recommend -68dBm).  If you have holes, the contract should be 
on the hook for it.  Take advantage of this economy.  Vendors will jump on this.

Remember, antennas vary GREATLY.  If you do a survey and then bid out and end 
up with a different product than you conducted the survey with, you could end 
up with holes.

-Brian

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
[WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of heath.barnhart 
[heath.barnh...@washburn.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 9:57 AM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

If you have any resellers/technology partners/consultants you might ask them. 
Standard consultant fees would probably apply (I've seen $150-$300/hour). If 
they're good they should be able to survey a couple buildings in a day (which 
should be less than $1500 a floor). You could also do it yourself. Someone 
mentioned Ekahau; we use Airmagnet Survey. Its good too have a survey solution 
for troubleshooting anyways.


--
Heath Barnhart, CCNA
Network Administrator
Information Systems and Services
Washburn University
Topeka, KS 66621


On 3/14/2011 4:46 PM, Winston Chow wrote:
Usually companies don't like to do site surveys because they do it assuming 
you'll buy APs from them.  If anything I found that companies will do it for a 
lot of money but give you a significant credit if you buy 
APs/controllers/service from them.

That doesn't work with our procurement system that needs 3 lowest bidders.

Good Luck!

-Winston



On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 6:41 AM, John 
Kaftanmailto:jkaf...@utica.edu>>  wrote:
I know this is a crazy question with tons of variables but I am trying to at 
least get an idea of what it would cost to do a wireless survey in our 
residence halls.  We have 7 buildings built over the years with a variety of 
construction materials.  Each building has 3-4 floors.  We have a total of 1100 
students living on campus.

Has anyone had a commercial wireless survey done and if so can you give me any 
idea of what I would be looking at?

My intention is to do this via an Internship so I do not really want to shop 
this out and put vendors through the paces.  I just want to give an estimate of 
what it would cost the college if we were to have a commercial provider do the 
work.

John Kaftan
Infrastructure Manager
Utica College
315.792.3102
** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE 
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at 
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE 
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at 
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.



--
Heath Barnhart, CCNA
Network Administrator
Information Systems and Services
Washburn University
Topeka, KS 66621

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE 
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at 
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group 
discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.


**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group 
discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

[Peter P Morrissey]

I second that emotion.
Pete Morrissey

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel Coehoorn
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 10:30 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

Agree I wouldn't run new "port-per-pillow" drops, but I wouldn't ditch existing 
drops (just update the switching) and anywhere you have apartment-style living 
I would put a wired port in the common space for game consoles/blu-ray/smart 
tvs/etc. Those who actually use the ports will be the few who know enough to 
know why it's better, and they also tend to be your heaviest users. It's nice 
to get some of the gaming and netflix traffic out of your airspace.

On Mar 15, 2011 7:50pm, John Kaftan  wrote:
> Thanks, but I have purchased already.  We will be doing this backwards.  We 
> are pulling extra drops and leaving 20' coils of cable above the ceilings and 
> then throw up the APs and see what happens.  Not perfect but we have been 
> doing alright with that.  We have a feel for it and the students report 
> happiness.  This summer we will do the survey to tighten things up a bit.  I 
> am considering dropping the wired ports as our LAN is past due for a refresh 
> and I do not want to re-invest in the port-per-pillow model.
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> On 3/15/2011 7:09 PM, Brian Helman wrote:
>
>
> Have you already selected a wireless product?  If not, I think you'd be far 
> better served issuing an RFP for full procurement and installation, with 
> signal guarantees (I'd recommend -68dBm).  If you have holes, the contract 
> should be on the hook for it.  Take advantage of this economy.  Vendors will 
> jump on this.
>
>
>
> Remember, antennas vary GREATLY.  If you do a survey and then bid out and end 
> up with a different product than you conducted the survey with, you could end 
> up with holes.
>
>
>
> -Brian
>
> 
>
> From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
> [WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of heath.barnhart 
> [heath.barnh...@washburn.edu]
>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 9:57 AM
>
> To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
>
> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost
>
>
>
> If you have any resellers/technology partners/consultants you might ask them. 
> Standard consultant fees would probably apply (I've seen $150-$300/hour). If 
> they're good they should be able to survey a couple buildings in a day (which 
> should be less than $1500 a floor). You could also do it yourself. Someone 
> mentioned Ekahau; we use Airmagnet Survey. Its good too have a survey 
> solution for troubleshooting anyways.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Heath Barnhart, CCNA
>
> Network Administrator
>
> Information Systems and Services
>
> Washburn University
>
> Topeka, KS 66621
>
>
>
>
>
> On 3/14/2011 4:46 PM, Winston Chow wrote:
>
> Usually companies don't like to do site surveys because they do it assuming 
> you'll buy APs from them.  If anything I found that companies will do it for 
> a lot of money but give you a significant credit if you buy 
> APs/controllers/service from them.
>
>
>
> That doesn't work with our procurement system that needs 3 lowest bidders.
>
>
>
> Good Luck!
>
>
>
> -Winston
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 6:41 AM, John 
> Kaftanjkaftan@utica.edumailto:jkaf...@utica.edu>>  wrote:
>
> I know this is a crazy question with tons of variables but I am trying to at 
> least get an idea of what it would cost to do a wireless survey in our 
> residence halls.  We have 7 buildings built over the years with a variety of 
> construction materials.  Each building has 3-4 floors.  We have a total of 
> 1100 students living on campus.
>
>
>
> Has anyone had a commercial wireless survey done and if so can you give me 
> any idea of what I would be looking at?
>
>
>
> My intention is to do this via an Internship so I do not really want to shop 
> this out and put vendors through the paces.  I just want to give an estimate 
> of what it would cost the college if we were to have a commercial provider do 
> the work.
>
>
>
> John Kaftan
>
> Infrastructure Manager
>
> Utica College
>
> 315.792.3102
>
> ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE 
> Constituent Group discussion list can be found at 
> http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
>
>
>
> ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE 
> 

Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

[Jeffrey Sessler]

So let me ask this...

Given the need for designs based on capacity rather than coverage, do those 
who've done site surveys previously feel they are still worth the trouble?

When we deployed, we based our coverage on capacity which resulted in AP's no 
more than 50' apart in general areas, and classroom deployment based on room 
capacity (1 dual-radio AP for 12, 2 for 24, etc.). As such, I've yet to find a 
coverage hole in either 2.4GHz or 5GHz, and the idea of doing a site survey, 
while so important in the days of coverage planning, now seems unnecessary.

Thoughts?

best,
Jeff

>>> John Kaftan  3/15/2011 5:50 PM >>>
Thanks, but I have purchased already.  We will be doing this backwards.  
We are pulling extra drops and leaving 20' coils of cable above the 
ceilings and then throw up the APs and see what happens.  Not perfect 
but we have been doing alright with that.  We have a feel for it and the 
students report happiness.  This summer we will do the survey to tighten 
things up a bit.  I am considering dropping the wired ports as our LAN 
is past due for a refresh and I do not want to re-invest in the 
port-per-pillow model.

John

On 3/15/2011 7:09 PM, Brian Helman wrote:
> Have you already selected a wireless product?  If not, I think you'd be far 
> better served issuing an RFP for full procurement and installation, with 
> signal guarantees (I'd recommend -68dBm).  If you have holes, the contract 
> should be on the hook for it.  Take advantage of this economy.  Vendors will 
> jump on this.
>
> Remember, antennas vary GREATLY.  If you do a survey and then bid out and end 
> up with a different product than you conducted the survey with, you could end 
> up with holes.
>
> -Brian
> 
> From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
> [WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of heath.barnhart 
> [heath.barnh...@washburn.edu] 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 9:57 AM
> To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU 
> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost
>
> If you have any resellers/technology partners/consultants you might ask them. 
> Standard consultant fees would probably apply (I've seen $150-$300/hour). If 
> they're good they should be able to survey a couple buildings in a day (which 
> should be less than $1500 a floor). You could also do it yourself. Someone 
> mentioned Ekahau; we use Airmagnet Survey. Its good too have a survey 
> solution for troubleshooting anyways.
>
>
> --
> Heath Barnhart, CCNA
> Network Administrator
> Information Systems and Services
> Washburn University
> Topeka, KS 66621
>
>
> On 3/14/2011 4:46 PM, Winston Chow wrote:
> Usually companies don't like to do site surveys because they do it assuming 
> you'll buy APs from them.  If anything I found that companies will do it for 
> a lot of money but give you a significant credit if you buy 
> APs/controllers/service from them.
>
> That doesn't work with our procurement system that needs 3 lowest bidders.
>
> Good Luck!
>
> -Winston
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 6:41 AM, John 
> Kaftanmailto:jkaf...@utica.edu>>  wrote:
> I know this is a crazy question with tons of variables but I am trying to at 
> least get an idea of what it would cost to do a wireless survey in our 
> residence halls.  We have 7 buildings built over the years with a variety of 
> construction materials.  Each building has 3-4 floors.  We have a total of 
> 1100 students living on campus.
>
> Has anyone had a commercial wireless survey done and if so can you give me 
> any idea of what I would be looking at?
>
> My intention is to do this via an Internship so I do not really want to shop 
> this out and put vendors through the paces.  I just want to give an estimate 
> of what it would cost the college if we were to have a commercial provider do 
> the work.
>
> John Kaftan
> Infrastructure Manager
> Utica College
> 315.792.3102
> ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE 
> Constituent Group discussion list can be found at 
> http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
>
> ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE 
> Constituent Group discussion list can be found at 
> http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
>
>
>
> --
> Heath Barnhart, CCNA
> Network Administrator
> Information Systems and Services
> Washburn University
> Topeka, KS 66621
>
> ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE 
> Constituent Group discussion list can be found at 
> http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
>
> **
> Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAU

Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

[Holland, Ryan C.]

I don't believe there is any cookie-cutter answer anyone can give. All of our 
designs are likely variant due to the needs of wireless. Surveys/designs should 
be performed in accordance to what applications you plan to leverage. If you're 
deploying a dense VoWLAN deployment, requirements are different than that of 
simple coverage. Wireless in auditoriums, etc., will require a completely 
different design.

I'd recommend identifying your requirements then coming up your strategy for 
surveying/design. For the majority of our locations, coverage is the primary 
requirements, so we perform active surveys of those locations, ensuring that 
the 2.4GHz design conforms to the 5GHz design.

. . . my two cents.

==
Ryan Holland
Network Engineer, Wireless
Office of the Chief Information Officer
The Ohio State University
614-292-9906   holland@osu.edu

On Mar 16, 2011, at 2:50 PM, Jeffrey Sessler wrote:

> So let me ask this...
> 
> Given the need for designs based on capacity rather than coverage, do those 
> who've done site surveys previously feel they are still worth the trouble?
> 
> When we deployed, we based our coverage on capacity which resulted in AP's no 
> more than 50' apart in general areas, and classroom deployment based on room 
> capacity (1 dual-radio AP for 12, 2 for 24, etc.). As such, I've yet to find 
> a coverage hole in either 2.4GHz or 5GHz, and the idea of doing a site 
> survey, while so important in the days of coverage planning, now seems 
> unnecessary.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> best,
> Jeff
> 
>>>> John Kaftan  3/15/2011 5:50 PM >>>
> Thanks, but I have purchased already.  We will be doing this backwards.  
> We are pulling extra drops and leaving 20' coils of cable above the 
> ceilings and then throw up the APs and see what happens.  Not perfect 
> but we have been doing alright with that.  We have a feel for it and the 
> students report happiness.  This summer we will do the survey to tighten 
> things up a bit.  I am considering dropping the wired ports as our LAN 
> is past due for a refresh and I do not want to re-invest in the 
> port-per-pillow model.
> 
> John
> 
> On 3/15/2011 7:09 PM, Brian Helman wrote:
>> Have you already selected a wireless product?  If not, I think you'd be far 
>> better served issuing an RFP for full procurement and installation, with 
>> signal guarantees (I'd recommend -68dBm).  If you have holes, the contract 
>> should be on the hook for it.  Take advantage of this economy.  Vendors will 
>> jump on this.
>> 
>> Remember, antennas vary GREATLY.  If you do a survey and then bid out and 
>> end up with a different product than you conducted the survey with, you 
>> could end up with holes.
>> 
>> -Brian
>> 
>> From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
>> [WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of heath.barnhart 
>> [heath.barnh...@washburn.edu] 
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 9:57 AM
>> To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU 
>> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost
>> 
>> If you have any resellers/technology partners/consultants you might ask 
>> them. Standard consultant fees would probably apply (I've seen 
>> $150-$300/hour). If they're good they should be able to survey a couple 
>> buildings in a day (which should be less than $1500 a floor). You could also 
>> do it yourself. Someone mentioned Ekahau; we use Airmagnet Survey. Its good 
>> too have a survey solution for troubleshooting anyways.
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Heath Barnhart, CCNA
>> Network Administrator
>> Information Systems and Services
>> Washburn University
>> Topeka, KS 66621
>> 
>> 
>> On 3/14/2011 4:46 PM, Winston Chow wrote:
>> Usually companies don't like to do site surveys because they do it assuming 
>> you'll buy APs from them.  If anything I found that companies will do it for 
>> a lot of money but give you a significant credit if you buy 
>> APs/controllers/service from them.
>> 
>> That doesn't work with our procurement system that needs 3 lowest bidders.
>> 
>> Good Luck!
>> 
>> -Winston
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 6:41 AM, John 
>> Kaftanmailto:jkaf...@utica.edu>>  wrote:
>> I know this is a crazy question with tons of variables but I am trying to at 
>> least get an idea of what it would cost to do a wireless survey in our 
>> residence halls.  We have 7 buildings built over the years with a variety of 
>> construction materials.  Each building h

RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

[Brian Helman]

If people are building new dorms, I'd definitely run copper to any common rooms 
if you support any gaming consoles.  Honestly though, we have a good density of 
wiring even in the dorms and I'm pretty close to shutting down or at least 
limiting the bandwidth available for video on the wireless network.  Netflix, 
Flash and Youtube are killing it (not to mention our Internet connection).

-Brian

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel Coehoorn
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 10:30 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

Agree I wouldn't run new "port-per-pillow" drops, but I wouldn't ditch existing 
drops (just update the switching) and anywhere you have apartment-style living 
I would put a wired port in the common space for game consoles/blu-ray/smart 
tvs/etc. Those who actually use the ports will be the few who know enough to 
know why it's better, and they also tend to be your heaviest users. It's nice 
to get some of the gaming and netflix traffic out of your airspace.

On Mar 15, 2011 7:50pm, John Kaftan  wrote:
> Thanks, but I have purchased already.  We will be doing this backwards.  We 
> are pulling extra drops and leaving 20' coils of cable above the ceilings and 
> then throw up the APs and see what happens.  Not perfect but we have been 
> doing alright with that.  We have a feel for it and the students report 
> happiness.  This summer we will do the survey to tighten things up a bit.  I 
> am considering dropping the wired ports as our LAN is past due for a refresh 
> and I do not want to re-invest in the port-per-pillow model.
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> On 3/15/2011 7:09 PM, Brian Helman wrote:
>
>
> Have you already selected a wireless product?  If not, I think you'd be far 
> better served issuing an RFP for full procurement and installation, with 
> signal guarantees (I'd recommend -68dBm).  If you have holes, the contract 
> should be on the hook for it.  Take advantage of this economy.  Vendors will 
> jump on this.
>
>
>
> Remember, antennas vary GREATLY.  If you do a survey and then bid out and end 
> up with a different product than you conducted the survey with, you could end 
> up with holes.
>
>
>
> -Brian
>
> 
>
> From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
> [WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of heath.barnhart 
> [heath.barnh...@washburn.edu]
>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 9:57 AM
>
> To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
>
> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost
>
>
>
> If you have any resellers/technology partners/consultants you might ask them. 
> Standard consultant fees would probably apply (I've seen $150-$300/hour). If 
> they're good they should be able to survey a couple buildings in a day (which 
> should be less than $1500 a floor). You could also do it yourself. Someone 
> mentioned Ekahau; we use Airmagnet Survey. Its good too have a survey 
> solution for troubleshooting anyways.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Heath Barnhart, CCNA
>
> Network Administrator
>
> Information Systems and Services
>
> Washburn University
>
> Topeka, KS 66621
>
>
>
>
>
> On 3/14/2011 4:46 PM, Winston Chow wrote:
>
> Usually companies don't like to do site surveys because they do it assuming 
> you'll buy APs from them.  If anything I found that companies will do it for 
> a lot of money but give you a significant credit if you buy 
> APs/controllers/service from them.
>
>
>
> That doesn't work with our procurement system that needs 3 lowest bidders.
>
>
>
> Good Luck!
>
>
>
> -Winston
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 6:41 AM, John 
> Kaftanjkaftan@utica.edumailto:jkaf...@utica.edu>>  wrote:
>
> I know this is a crazy question with tons of variables but I am trying to at 
> least get an idea of what it would cost to do a wireless survey in our 
> residence halls.  We have 7 buildings built over the years with a variety of 
> construction materials.  Each building has 3-4 floors.  We have a total of 
> 1100 students living on campus.
>
>
>
> Has anyone had a commercial wireless survey done and if so can you give me 
> any idea of what I would be looking at?
>
>
>
> My intention is to do this via an Internship so I do not really want to shop 
> this out and put vendors through the paces.  I just want to give an estimate 
> of what it would cost the college if we were to have a commercial provider do 
> the work.
>
>
>
&

Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

[John Kaftan]

I have everyone held back to 2 Mbs on wireless.  That seems to be a good 
number for now.  Nobody is complaining and it helps to keep their 
experience consistent.  They can watch a Netflix movie with that.  I 
imagine Netflix would use more bandwidth if it could.  I have not tested 
though.




On 3/16/2011 6:28 PM, Brian Helman wrote:


If people are building new dorms, I'd definitely run copper to any 
common rooms if you support any gaming consoles.  Honestly though, we 
have a good density of wiring even in the dorms and I'm pretty close 
to shutting down or at least limiting the bandwidth available for 
video on the wireless network.  Netflix, Flash and Youtube are killing 
it (not to mention our Internet connection).


-Brian

*From:*The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] *On Behalf Of *Joel Coehoorn

*Sent:* Tuesday, March 15, 2011 10:30 PM
*To:* WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
*Subject:* Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

Agree I wouldn't run new "port-per-pillow" drops, but I wouldn't ditch 
existing drops (just update the switching) and anywhere you have 
apartment-style living I would put a wired port in the common space 
for game consoles/blu-ray/smart tvs/etc. Those who actually use the 
ports will be the few who know enough to know why it's better, and 
they also tend to be your heaviest users. It's nice to get some of the 
gaming and netflix traffic out of your airspace.


On Mar 15, 2011 7:50pm, John Kaftan  wrote:
> Thanks, but I have purchased already.  We will be doing this 
backwards.  We are pulling extra drops and leaving 20' coils of cable 
above the ceilings and then throw up the APs and see what happens. 
 Not perfect but we have been doing alright with that.  We have a feel 
for it and the students report happiness.  This summer we will do the 
survey to tighten things up a bit.  I am considering dropping the 
wired ports as our LAN is past due for a refresh and I do not want to 
re-invest in the port-per-pillow model.

>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> On 3/15/2011 7:09 PM, Brian Helman wrote:
>
>
> Have you already selected a wireless product?  If not, I think you'd 
be far better served issuing an RFP for full procurement and 
installation, with signal guarantees (I'd recommend -68dBm).  If you 
have holes, the contract should be on the hook for it.  Take advantage 
of this economy.  Vendors will jump on this.

>
>
>
> Remember, antennas vary GREATLY.  If you do a survey and then bid 
out and end up with a different product than you conducted the survey 
with, you could end up with holes.

>
>
>
> -Brian
>
> 
>
> From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
[WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of heath.barnhart 
[heath.barnh...@washburn.edu]

>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 9:57 AM
>
> To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
>
> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost
>
>
>
> If you have any resellers/technology partners/consultants you might 
ask them. Standard consultant fees would probably apply (I've seen 
$150-$300/hour). If they're good they should be able to survey a 
couple buildings in a day (which should be less than $1500 a floor). 
You could also do it yourself. Someone mentioned Ekahau; we use 
Airmagnet Survey. Its good too have a survey solution for 
troubleshooting anyways.

>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Heath Barnhart, CCNA
>
> Network Administrator
>
> Information Systems and Services
>
> Washburn University
>
> Topeka, KS 66621
>
>
>
>
>
> On 3/14/2011 4:46 PM, Winston Chow wrote:
>
> Usually companies don't like to do site surveys because they do it 
assuming you'll buy APs from them.  If anything I found that companies 
will do it for a lot of money but give you a significant credit if you 
buy APs/controllers/service from them.

>
>
>
> That doesn't work with our procurement system that needs 3 lowest 
bidders.

>
>
>
> Good Luck!
>
>
>
> -Winston
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 6:41 AM, John 
Kaftanjkaftan@utica.edumailto:jkaf...@utica.edu>>  wrote:

>
> I know this is a crazy question with tons of variables but I am 
trying to at least get an idea of what it would cost to do a wireless 
survey in our residence halls.  We have 7 buildings built over the 
years with a variety of construction materials.  Each building has 3-4 
floors.  We have a total of 1100 students living on campus.

>
>
>
> Has anyone had a commercial wireless survey done and if so can you 
give me any idea of what I would be looking at?

>
>
>
> My intention is to do this via an Internship so I do n

RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

[John Kaftan]

So I hate to dig this up again but nobody really responded to Jeff Sessler's
post "Given the need for designs based on capacity rather than coverage, do
those who've done site surveys previously feel they are still worth the
trouble?"

 

Seems to me wireless surveys are for determining coverage which is something
we can easily measure.  We can require that an area will have no less than
-68 dBm signal and do the survey to determine what it will take.  However,
if folks are saying that in a high density area like a ResHall just
providing coverage is not enough and we must go much denser what good is the
survey?  If coverage is not enough then how do we determine our density?  Is
it just by feel?

 

Up until now I figured I was not going to do a survey.  I figured for the
cost of the survey I could buy an additional 30-50 APs.  When pulling wire
I'd have facilities leave a 20' coil and pull double the wire I originally
guessed based on past experience.  Then we would just "Throw it up" and see
what happens.  If we move slowly and do a ResHall at a time we should be
able to get a feel for it.

 

Now I have a shot at doing a survey this summer after the fact by using
students from a nearby University that has a MS in Networking as an
internship.  The cost is much less than a professional survey but I have to
ask if it is still worth it if capacity is what we are going for?

 

Perhaps I should be looking at a different internship.  There is certainly
plenty to do around here.

 

 

John Kaftan 

Infrastructure Manager

Utica College 

315.792.3102

 

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv
[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of John Kaftan
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:16 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

 

I have everyone held back to 2 Mbs on wireless.  That seems to be a good
number for now.  Nobody is complaining and it helps to keep their experience
consistent.  They can watch a Netflix movie with that.  I imagine Netflix
would use more bandwidth if it could.  I have not tested though.  



On 3/16/2011 6:28 PM, Brian Helman wrote: 

If people are building new dorms, I'd definitely run copper to any common
rooms if you support any gaming consoles.  Honestly though, we have a good
density of wiring even in the dorms and I'm pretty close to shutting down or
at least limiting the bandwidth available for video on the wireless network.
Netflix, Flash and Youtube are killing it (not to mention our Internet
connection).

 

-Brian 

 

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv
[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel Coehoorn
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 10:30 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

 

Agree I wouldn't run new "port-per-pillow" drops, but I wouldn't ditch
existing drops (just update the switching) and anywhere you have
apartment-style living I would put a wired port in the common space for game
consoles/blu-ray/smart tvs/etc. Those who actually use the ports will be the
few who know enough to know why it's better, and they also tend to be your
heaviest users. It's nice to get some of the gaming and netflix traffic out
of your airspace.

On Mar 15, 2011 7:50pm, John Kaftan  <mailto:jkaf...@utica.edu>
 wrote:
> Thanks, but I have purchased already.  We will be doing this backwards.
We are pulling extra drops and leaving 20' coils of cable above the ceilings
and then throw up the APs and see what happens.  Not perfect but we have
been doing alright with that.  We have a feel for it and the students report
happiness.  This summer we will do the survey to tighten things up a bit.  I
am considering dropping the wired ports as our LAN is past due for a refresh
and I do not want to re-invest in the port-per-pillow model.
> 
> 
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> On 3/15/2011 7:09 PM, Brian Helman wrote:
> 
> 
> Have you already selected a wireless product?  If not, I think you'd be
far better served issuing an RFP for full procurement and installation, with
signal guarantees (I'd recommend -68dBm).  If you have holes, the contract
should be on the hook for it.  Take advantage of this economy.  Vendors will
jump on this.
> 
> 
> 
> Remember, antennas vary GREATLY.  If you do a survey and then bid out and
end up with a different product than you conducted the survey with, you
could end up with holes.
> 
> 
> 
> -Brian
> 
> 
> 
> From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv
[WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of heath.barnhart
[heath.barnh...@washburn.edu]
> 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 9:57 AM
> 
> To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
> 
> Subject:

RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

[Voll, Toivo]

You can certainly set dBm limits for signal and survey, or data rate limits, or 
client density limits, and survey with those. However, there are aspects that 
just require one to have knowledge or a feel, of campus.

For example: Where do people typically congregate and use laptops? Which 
students typically are heavy users of data and which aren’t? Why is one outdoor 
seating area really popular and another one isn’t, and might that hold for the 
students two years from now? Do the MIS or Geography students work on large 
databases wirelessly from their study lounge?  Where ARE the study lounges, 
sanctioned and ad-hoc in the first place, and where will they be next year? Are 
you expected to cover a given space for special events where you have hundreds 
of users, but only a few times a year?  Etc, etc.

Typical site surveys with well-thought out criteria as basis for planning are 
certainly useful, especially in the administrative (corporate) spaces, but once 
you get into the academics you have to put in a lot more external information 
to make use of them beyond the basic coverage aspect.

Toivo Voll
Network Administrator
Information Technology Communications
University of South Florida



From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of John Kaftan
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 15:12
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

So I hate to dig this up again but nobody really responded to Jeff Sessler’s 
post “Given the need for designs based on capacity rather than coverage, do 
those who've done site surveys previously feel they are still worth the 
trouble?”

Seems to me wireless surveys are for determining coverage which is something we 
can easily measure.  We can require that an area will have no less than -68 dBm 
signal and do the survey to determine what it will take.  However, if folks are 
saying that in a high density area like a ResHall just providing coverage is 
not enough and we must go much denser what good is the survey?  If coverage is 
not enough then how do we determine our density?  Is it just by feel?

Up until now I figured I was not going to do a survey.  I figured for the cost 
of the survey I could buy an additional 30-50 APs.  When pulling wire I’d have 
facilities leave a 20’ coil and pull double the wire I originally guessed based 
on past experience.  Then we would just “Throw it up” and see what happens.  If 
we move slowly and do a ResHall at a time we should be able to get a feel for 
it.

Now I have a shot at doing a survey this summer after the fact by using 
students from a nearby University that has a MS in Networking as an internship. 
 The cost is much less than a professional survey but I have to ask if it is 
still worth it if capacity is what we are going for?

Perhaps I should be looking at a different internship.  There is certainly 
plenty to do around here.


John Kaftan
Infrastructure Manager
Utica College
315.792.3102

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of John Kaftan
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:16 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

I have everyone held back to 2 Mbs on wireless.  That seems to be a good number 
for now.  Nobody is complaining and it helps to keep their experience 
consistent.  They can watch a Netflix movie with that.  I imagine Netflix would 
use more bandwidth if it could.  I have not tested though.



On 3/16/2011 6:28 PM, Brian Helman wrote:
If people are building new dorms, I’d definitely run copper to any common rooms 
if you support any gaming consoles.  Honestly though, we have a good density of 
wiring even in the dorms and I’m pretty close to shutting down or at least 
limiting the bandwidth available for video on the wireless network.  Netflix, 
Flash and Youtube are killing it (not to mention our Internet connection).

-Brian

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel Coehoorn
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 10:30 PM
To: 
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

Agree I wouldn't run new "port-per-pillow" drops, but I wouldn't ditch existing 
drops (just update the switching) and anywhere you have apartment-style living 
I would put a wired port in the common space for game consoles/blu-ray/smart 
tvs/etc. Those who actually use the ports will be the few who know enough to 
know why it's better, and they also tend to be your heaviest users. It's nice 
to get some of the gaming and netflix traffic out of your airspace.

On Mar 15, 2011 7:50pm, John Kaftan 
<mailto:jkaf...@utica.edu> wrote:
> Thanks, but I have purchased already.  We will

Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

[heath.barnhart]

If nothing else, you will have a documentation showing what your 
coverage is and can uncover any gotchas. If someone says they are having 
issues in an area, you pull up the survey and have instant access to 
more information to help uncover the reason behind their issues.


Heath

On 3/22/2011 2:11 PM, John Kaftan wrote:


So I hate to dig this up again but nobody really responded to Jeff 
Sessler's post "Given the need for designs based on capacity rather 
than coverage, do those who've done site surveys previously feel they 
are still worth the trouble?"


Seems to me wireless surveys are for determining coverage which is 
something we can easily measure.  We can require that an area will 
have no less than -68 dBm signal and do the survey to determine what 
it will take.  However, if folks are saying that in a high density 
area like a ResHall just providing coverage is not enough and we must 
go much denser what good is the survey?  If coverage is not enough 
then how do we determine our density?  Is it just by feel?


Up until now I figured I was not going to do a survey.  I figured for 
the cost of the survey I could buy an additional 30-50 APs.  When 
pulling wire I'd have facilities leave a 20' coil and pull double the 
wire I originally guessed based on past experience.  Then we would 
just "Throw it up" and see what happens.  If we move slowly and do a 
ResHall at a time we should be able to get a feel for it.


Now I have a shot at doing a survey this summer after the fact by 
using students from a nearby University that has a MS in Networking as 
an internship.  The cost is much less than a professional survey but I 
have to ask if it is still worth it if capacity is what we are going for?


Perhaps I should be looking at a different internship.  There is 
certainly plenty to do around here.


John Kaftan

Infrastructure Manager

Utica College

315.792.3102

*From:*The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] *On Behalf Of *John Kaftan

*Sent:* Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:16 PM
*To:* WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
*Subject:* Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

I have everyone held back to 2 Mbs on wireless.  That seems to be a 
good number for now.  Nobody is complaining and it helps to keep their 
experience consistent.  They can watch a Netflix movie with that.  I 
imagine Netflix would use more bandwidth if it could.  I have not 
tested though.




On 3/16/2011 6:28 PM, Brian Helman wrote:

If people are building new dorms, I'd definitely run copper to any 
common rooms if you support any gaming consoles.  Honestly though, we 
have a good density of wiring even in the dorms and I'm pretty close 
to shutting down or at least limiting the bandwidth available for 
video on the wireless network.  Netflix, Flash and Youtube are killing 
it (not to mention our Internet connection).


-Brian

*From:*The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] *On Behalf Of *Joel Coehoorn

*Sent:* Tuesday, March 15, 2011 10:30 PM
*To:* WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU 
<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>

*Subject:* Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

Agree I wouldn't run new "port-per-pillow" drops, but I wouldn't ditch 
existing drops (just update the switching) and anywhere you have 
apartment-style living I would put a wired port in the common space 
for game consoles/blu-ray/smart tvs/etc. Those who actually use the 
ports will be the few who know enough to know why it's better, and 
they also tend to be your heaviest users. It's nice to get some of the 
gaming and netflix traffic out of your airspace.


On Mar 15, 2011 7:50pm, John Kaftan  
<mailto:jkaf...@utica.edu> wrote:
> Thanks, but I have purchased already.  We will be doing this 
backwards.  We are pulling extra drops and leaving 20' coils of cable 
above the ceilings and then throw up the APs and see what happens. 
 Not perfect but we have been doing alright with that.  We have a feel 
for it and the students report happiness.  This summer we will do the 
survey to tighten things up a bit.  I am considering dropping the 
wired ports as our LAN is past due for a refresh and I do not want to 
re-invest in the port-per-pillow model.

>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> On 3/15/2011 7:09 PM, Brian Helman wrote:
>
>
> Have you already selected a wireless product?  If not, I think you'd 
be far better served issuing an RFP for full procurement and 
installation, with signal guarantees (I'd recommend -68dBm).  If you 
have holes, the contract should be on the hook for it.  Take advantage 
of this economy.  Vendors will jump on this.

>
>
>
> Remember, antennas vary GREATLY.  If you do a survey and then bid 
out and end up with a different product than you conducted the surve

Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

[Hanset, Philippe C]

Having done a Dorm Installation last week, let me add another point:

5 Ghz is great, but in some places you might want to skip the expense.

We had no choice but to feed Dorm suites from the center hallway.
After a thorough testing we came to the conclusion that we would only provide 
802.11n at 2.4 GHz
since too much of the 5 GHz signal was wasted.

So instead of using Aruba AP-105 ($695 list) everywhere in that building, we 
settled for Aruba AP-93 ($395 list).
With the savings, we did smaller cells to somewhat compensate for the lesser 
capacity.
Each bedroom still has an ethernet drop (unfortunately unusable for APs for 
architectural reasons).

Philippe
Univ. of TN


On Mar 22, 2011, at 3:38 PM, heath.barnhart wrote:

If nothing else, you will have a documentation showing what your coverage is 
and can uncover any gotchas. If someone says they are having issues in an area, 
you pull up the survey and have instant access to more information to help 
uncover the reason behind their issues.

Heath

On 3/22/2011 2:11 PM, John Kaftan wrote:
So I hate to dig this up again but nobody really responded to Jeff Sessler’s 
post “Given the need for designs based on capacity rather than coverage, do 
those who've done site surveys previously feel they are still worth the 
trouble?”

Seems to me wireless surveys are for determining coverage which is something we 
can easily measure.  We can require that an area will have no less than -68 dBm 
signal and do the survey to determine what it will take.  However, if folks are 
saying that in a high density area like a ResHall just providing coverage is 
not enough and we must go much denser what good is the survey?  If coverage is 
not enough then how do we determine our density?  Is it just by feel?

Up until now I figured I was not going to do a survey.  I figured for the cost 
of the survey I could buy an additional 30-50 APs.  When pulling wire I’d have 
facilities leave a 20’ coil and pull double the wire I originally guessed based 
on past experience.  Then we would just “Throw it up” and see what happens.  If 
we move slowly and do a ResHall at a time we should be able to get a feel for 
it.

Now I have a shot at doing a survey this summer after the fact by using 
students from a nearby University that has a MS in Networking as an internship. 
 The cost is much less than a professional survey but I have to ask if it is 
still worth it if capacity is what we are going for?

Perhaps I should be looking at a different internship.  There is certainly 
plenty to do around here.


John Kaftan
Infrastructure Manager
Utica College
315.792.3102

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of John Kaftan
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:16 PM
To: 
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

I have everyone held back to 2 Mbs on wireless.  That seems to be a good number 
for now.  Nobody is complaining and it helps to keep their experience 
consistent.  They can watch a Netflix movie with that.  I imagine Netflix would 
use more bandwidth if it could.  I have not tested though.



On 3/16/2011 6:28 PM, Brian Helman wrote:
If people are building new dorms, I’d definitely run copper to any common rooms 
if you support any gaming consoles.  Honestly though, we have a good density of 
wiring even in the dorms and I’m pretty close to shutting down or at least 
limiting the bandwidth available for video on the wireless network.  Netflix, 
Flash and Youtube are killing it (not to mention our Internet connection).

-Brian

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel Coehoorn
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 10:30 PM
To: 
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

Agree I wouldn't run new "port-per-pillow" drops, but I wouldn't ditch existing 
drops (just update the switching) and anywhere you have apartment-style living 
I would put a wired port in the common space for game consoles/blu-ray/smart 
tvs/etc. Those who actually use the ports will be the few who know enough to 
know why it's better, and they also tend to be your heaviest users. It's nice 
to get some of the gaming and netflix traffic out of your airspace.

On Mar 15, 2011 7:50pm, John Kaftan 
<mailto:jkaf...@utica.edu> wrote:
> Thanks, but I have purchased already.  We will be doing this backwards.  We 
> are pulling extra drops and leaving 20' coils of cable above the ceilings and 
> then throw up the APs and see what happens.  Not perfect but we have been 
> doing alright with that.  We have a feel for it and the students report 
> happiness.  This summer we will do the survey to tighten things up a bit.  I 
> 

Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

[David J Molta]

Wasted in what sense, Philippe? Residence halls are obviously high-density 
environments so capacity is a big concern, especially during peak usage 
periods. Even if the 5 GHz 11n channel can’t provide full coverage for the area 
under consideration, if it offloads even 25-30% of the 2.4 GHz 11n traffic, it 
seems like it would be worth the extra cost because it would result in better 
performance under heavy contention for both 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz users.

Dave Molta


On 3/22/11 3:59 PM, "Hanset, Philippe C"  wrote:

Having done a Dorm Installation last week, let me add another point:

5 Ghz is great, but in some places you might want to skip the expense.

We had no choice but to feed Dorm suites from the center hallway.
After a thorough testing we came to the conclusion that we would only provide 
802.11n at 2.4 GHz
since too much of the 5 GHz signal was wasted.

So instead of using Aruba AP-105 ($695 list) everywhere in that building, we 
settled for Aruba AP-93 ($395 list).
With the savings, we did smaller cells to somewhat compensate for the lesser 
capacity.
Each bedroom still has an ethernet drop (unfortunately unusable for APs for 
architectural reasons).

Philippe
Univ. of TN


On Mar 22, 2011, at 3:38 PM, heath.barnhart wrote:

If nothing else, you will have a documentation showing what your coverage is 
and can uncover any gotchas. If someone says they are having issues in an area, 
you pull up the survey and have instant access to more information to help 
uncover the reason behind their issues.

Heath

On 3/22/2011 2:11 PM, John Kaftan wrote:
So I hate to dig this up again but nobody really responded to Jeff Sessler’s 
post “Given the need for designs based on capacity rather than coverage, do 
those who've done site surveys previously feel they are still worth the 
trouble?”

Seems to me wireless surveys are for determining coverage which is something we 
can easily measure.  We can require that an area will have no less than -68 dBm 
signal and do the survey to determine what it will take.  However, if folks are 
saying that in a high density area like a ResHall just providing coverage is 
not enough and we must go much denser what good is the survey?  If coverage is 
not enough then how do we determine our density?  Is it just by feel?

Up until now I figured I was not going to do a survey.  I figured for the cost 
of the survey I could buy an additional 30-50 APs.  When pulling wire I’d have 
facilities leave a 20’ coil and pull double the wire I originally guessed based 
on past experience.  Then we would just “Throw it up” and see what happens.  If 
we move slowly and do a ResHall at a time we should be able to get a feel for 
it.

Now I have a shot at doing a survey this summer after the fact by using 
students from a nearby University that has a MS in Networking as an internship. 
 The cost is much less than a professional survey but I have to ask if it is 
still worth it if capacity is what we are going for?

Perhaps I should be looking at a different internship.  There is certainly 
plenty to do around here.



John Kaftan
Infrastructure Manager
Utica College
315.792.3102


From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of John Kaftan
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:16 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

I have everyone held back to 2 Mbs on wireless.  That seems to be a good number 
for now.  Nobody is complaining and it helps to keep their experience 
consistent.  They can watch a Netflix movie with that.  I imagine Netflix would 
use more bandwidth if it could.  I have not tested though.



On 3/16/2011 6:28 PM, Brian Helman wrote:
If people are building new dorms, I’d definitely run copper to any common rooms 
if you support any gaming consoles.  Honestly though, we have a good density of 
wiring even in the dorms and I’m pretty close to shutting down or at least 
limiting the bandwidth available for video on the wireless network.  Netflix, 
Flash and Youtube are killing it (not to mention our Internet connection).

-Brian


From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel Coehoorn
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 10:30 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

Agree I wouldn't run new "port-per-pillow" drops, but I wouldn't ditch existing 
drops (just update the switching) and anywhere you have apartment-style living 
I would put a wired port in the common space for game consoles/blu-ray/smart 
tvs/etc. Those who actually use the ports will be the few who know enough to 
know why it's better, and they also tend to be your heaviest users. It's nice 
to get some of the gaming and netflix traffic out of your airspace.

On Mar 15, 2011 7:50pm, John Kaftan  
<mailto:jkaf...@u

Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

[Hanset, Philippe C]

5 GHz was only usable in hallways (deserted) and the front part of suites 
(shower and restroom).
Where users are present we were measuring -80 dBm or less at 5 GHz.
That dorm doesn't have common areas. In common areas, it would make sense to 
use 5 GHz of course.
The extra capacity is provided by providing smaller cells at 2.4 GHz.

The other problem with weak 5GHz and stronger 2.4GHz is that devices (e.g. 
Macs!) do not join 5 GHz,
even if available. Tricks like Bandwidth Steering can help this behavior, but 
not if the difference is too large
between the 2 spectrums.

BTW: If a large majority of users start watching Netflix in restrooms we will 
have to swap APs!

Philippe


On Mar 22, 2011, at 4:26 PM, David J Molta wrote:

Wasted in what sense, Philippe? Residence halls are obviously high-density 
environments so capacity is a big concern, especially during peak usage 
periods. Even if the 5 GHz 11n channel can’t provide full coverage for the area 
under consideration, if it offloads even 25-30% of the 2.4 GHz 11n traffic, it 
seems like it would be worth the extra cost because it would result in better 
performance under heavy contention for both 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz users.

Dave Molta


On 3/22/11 3:59 PM, "Hanset, Philippe C" 
> wrote:

Having done a Dorm Installation last week, let me add another point:

5 Ghz is great, but in some places you might want to skip the expense.

We had no choice but to feed Dorm suites from the center hallway.
After a thorough testing we came to the conclusion that we would only provide 
802.11n at 2.4 GHz
since too much of the 5 GHz signal was wasted.

So instead of using Aruba AP-105 ($695 list) everywhere in that building, we 
settled for Aruba AP-93 ($395 list).
With the savings, we did smaller cells to somewhat compensate for the lesser 
capacity.
Each bedroom still has an ethernet drop (unfortunately unusable for APs for 
architectural reasons).

Philippe
Univ. of TN


On Mar 22, 2011, at 3:38 PM, heath.barnhart wrote:

If nothing else, you will have a documentation showing what your coverage is 
and can uncover any gotchas. If someone says they are having issues in an area, 
you pull up the survey and have instant access to more information to help 
uncover the reason behind their issues.

Heath

On 3/22/2011 2:11 PM, John Kaftan wrote:
So I hate to dig this up again but nobody really responded to Jeff Sessler’s 
post “Given the need for designs based on capacity rather than coverage, do 
those who've done site surveys previously feel they are still worth the 
trouble?”

Seems to me wireless surveys are for determining coverage which is something we 
can easily measure.  We can require that an area will have no less than -68 dBm 
signal and do the survey to determine what it will take.  However, if folks are 
saying that in a high density area like a ResHall just providing coverage is 
not enough and we must go much denser what good is the survey?  If coverage is 
not enough then how do we determine our density?  Is it just by feel?

Up until now I figured I was not going to do a survey.  I figured for the cost 
of the survey I could buy an additional 30-50 APs.  When pulling wire I’d have 
facilities leave a 20’ coil and pull double the wire I originally guessed based 
on past experience.  Then we would just “Throw it up” and see what happens.  If 
we move slowly and do a ResHall at a time we should be able to get a feel for 
it.

Now I have a shot at doing a survey this summer after the fact by using 
students from a nearby University that has a MS in Networking as an internship. 
 The cost is much less than a professional survey but I have to ask if it is 
still worth it if capacity is what we are going for?

Perhaps I should be looking at a different internship.  There is certainly 
plenty to do around here.



John Kaftan
Infrastructure Manager
Utica College
315.792.3102


From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of John Kaftan
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:16 PM
To: 
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

I have everyone held back to 2 Mbs on wireless.  That seems to be a good number 
for now.  Nobody is complaining and it helps to keep their experience 
consistent.  They can watch a Netflix movie with that.  I imagine Netflix would 
use more bandwidth if it could.  I have not tested though.



On 3/16/2011 6:28 PM, Brian Helman wrote:
If people are building new dorms, I’d definitely run copper to any common rooms 
if you support any gaming consoles.  Honestly though, we have a good density of 
wiring even in the dorms and I’m pretty close to shutting down or at least 
limiting the bandwidth available for video on the wireless network.  Netflix, 
Flash and Youtube are killing it (not to mention our Internet connection).

-Brian


From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listser

RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

[Brian Helman]

I don't want to market products here, but if you need capacity, single-radio 
AP's are not the way to go.  If you are LUCKY, you'll get 35 people on an AP... 
and that doesn't take into account the wiring, PoE 
ports/injectors/WiringClosetElectric, enclosures (ignoring the rather lengthy 
thread from last week) and mounting.  Surveys are very useful since 
construction and decor vary so much.  I think I said this before though .. if 
you've settled on a vendor, get them to do the survey for free.  It should be a 
part of the cost of buying the products (including guarantees).

If you are going to do your own surveys, I'd highly recommend investing in a 
tripod with an extension pole.  You need to get the AP's at/near the height 
they'll be installed and it's far easier than placing them on ceiling tiles.

Just remember, when students are watching Netflix from their Androids and 
iPhones while in the "library", you'll need that extra capacity ;)

-Brian


From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
[WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of John Kaftan 
[jkaf...@utica.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 3:11 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

So I hate to dig this up again but nobody really responded to Jeff Sessler’s 
post “Given the need for designs based on capacity rather than coverage, do 
those who've done site surveys previously feel they are still worth the 
trouble?”

Seems to me wireless surveys are for determining coverage which is something we 
can easily measure.  We can require that an area will have no less than -68 dBm 
signal and do the survey to determine what it will take.  However, if folks are 
saying that in a high density area like a ResHall just providing coverage is 
not enough and we must go much denser what good is the survey?  If coverage is 
not enough then how do we determine our density?  Is it just by feel?

Up until now I figured I was not going to do a survey.  I figured for the cost 
of the survey I could buy an additional 30-50 APs.  When pulling wire I’d have 
facilities leave a 20’ coil and pull double the wire I originally guessed based 
on past experience.  Then we would just “Throw it up” and see what happens.  If 
we move slowly and do a ResHall at a time we should be able to get a feel for 
it.

Now I have a shot at doing a survey this summer after the fact by using 
students from a nearby University that has a MS in Networking as an internship. 
 The cost is much less than a professional survey but I have to ask if it is 
still worth it if capacity is what we are going for?

Perhaps I should be looking at a different internship.  There is certainly 
plenty to do around here.


John Kaftan
Infrastructure Manager
Utica College
315.792.3102

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of John Kaftan
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:16 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

I have everyone held back to 2 Mbs on wireless.  That seems to be a good number 
for now.  Nobody is complaining and it helps to keep their experience 
consistent.  They can watch a Netflix movie with that.  I imagine Netflix would 
use more bandwidth if it could.  I have not tested though.



On 3/16/2011 6:28 PM, Brian Helman wrote:
If people are building new dorms, I’d definitely run copper to any common rooms 
if you support any gaming consoles.  Honestly though, we have a good density of 
wiring even in the dorms and I’m pretty close to shutting down or at least 
limiting the bandwidth available for video on the wireless network.  Netflix, 
Flash and Youtube are killing it (not to mention our Internet connection).

-Brian

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel Coehoorn
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 10:30 PM
To: 
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

Agree I wouldn't run new "port-per-pillow" drops, but I wouldn't ditch existing 
drops (just update the switching) and anywhere you have apartment-style living 
I would put a wired port in the common space for game consoles/blu-ray/smart 
tvs/etc. Those who actually use the ports will be the few who know enough to 
know why it's better, and they also tend to be your heaviest users. It's nice 
to get some of the gaming and netflix traffic out of your airspace.

On Mar 15, 2011 7:50pm, John Kaftan 
<mailto:jkaf...@utica.edu> wrote:
> Thanks, but I have purchased already.  We will be doing this backwards.  We 
> are pulling extra drops and leaving 20' coils of cable above the ceilings and 
> then th

RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

[Lee H Badman]

Interesting- we see on the order of 25-45% 5 Ghz usage depending on area, but 
we design to robust 5 GHz cells.



From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
[WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Hanset, Philippe C 
[phan...@utk.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 4:47 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

5 GHz was only usable in hallways (deserted) and the front part of suites 
(shower and restroom).
Where users are present we were measuring -80 dBm or less at 5 GHz.
That dorm doesn't have common areas. In common areas, it would make sense to 
use 5 GHz of course.
The extra capacity is provided by providing smaller cells at 2.4 GHz.

The other problem with weak 5GHz and stronger 2.4GHz is that devices (e.g. 
Macs!) do not join 5 GHz,
even if available. Tricks like Bandwidth Steering can help this behavior, but 
not if the difference is too large
between the 2 spectrums.

BTW: If a large majority of users start watching Netflix in restrooms we will 
have to swap APs!

Philippe


On Mar 22, 2011, at 4:26 PM, David J Molta wrote:

Wasted in what sense, Philippe? Residence halls are obviously high-density 
environments so capacity is a big concern, especially during peak usage 
periods. Even if the 5 GHz 11n channel can’t provide full coverage for the area 
under consideration, if it offloads even 25-30% of the 2.4 GHz 11n traffic, it 
seems like it would be worth the extra cost because it would result in better 
performance under heavy contention for both 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz users.

Dave Molta


On 3/22/11 3:59 PM, "Hanset, Philippe C" 
> wrote:

Having done a Dorm Installation last week, let me add another point:

5 Ghz is great, but in some places you might want to skip the expense.

We had no choice but to feed Dorm suites from the center hallway.
After a thorough testing we came to the conclusion that we would only provide 
802.11n at 2.4 GHz
since too much of the 5 GHz signal was wasted.

So instead of using Aruba AP-105 ($695 list) everywhere in that building, we 
settled for Aruba AP-93 ($395 list).
With the savings, we did smaller cells to somewhat compensate for the lesser 
capacity.
Each bedroom still has an ethernet drop (unfortunately unusable for APs for 
architectural reasons).

Philippe
Univ. of TN


On Mar 22, 2011, at 3:38 PM, heath.barnhart wrote:

If nothing else, you will have a documentation showing what your coverage is 
and can uncover any gotchas. If someone says they are having issues in an area, 
you pull up the survey and have instant access to more information to help 
uncover the reason behind their issues.

Heath

On 3/22/2011 2:11 PM, John Kaftan wrote:
So I hate to dig this up again but nobody really responded to Jeff Sessler’s 
post “Given the need for designs based on capacity rather than coverage, do 
those who've done site surveys previously feel they are still worth the 
trouble?”

Seems to me wireless surveys are for determining coverage which is something we 
can easily measure.  We can require that an area will have no less than -68 dBm 
signal and do the survey to determine what it will take.  However, if folks are 
saying that in a high density area like a ResHall just providing coverage is 
not enough and we must go much denser what good is the survey?  If coverage is 
not enough then how do we determine our density?  Is it just by feel?

Up until now I figured I was not going to do a survey.  I figured for the cost 
of the survey I could buy an additional 30-50 APs.  When pulling wire I’d have 
facilities leave a 20’ coil and pull double the wire I originally guessed based 
on past experience.  Then we would just “Throw it up” and see what happens.  If 
we move slowly and do a ResHall at a time we should be able to get a feel for 
it.

Now I have a shot at doing a survey this summer after the fact by using 
students from a nearby University that has a MS in Networking as an internship. 
 The cost is much less than a professional survey but I have to ask if it is 
still worth it if capacity is what we are going for?

Perhaps I should be looking at a different internship.  There is certainly 
plenty to do around here.



John Kaftan
Infrastructure Manager
Utica College
315.792.3102


From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of John Kaftan
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:16 PM
To: 
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

I have everyone held back to 2 Mbs on wireless.  That seems to be a good number 
for now.  Nobody is complaining and it helps to keep their experience 
consistent.  They can watch a Netflix movie with that.  I imagine Netflix would 
use more bandwidth if it could.  I have not tested though.



On 3/16/2011 6:28 PM, Brian Helman wrote:
If people are building new dorms, I’d d

Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

[Hanset, Philippe C]

25-45% in your dorms with the useable area behind bathrooms?
or 25-45% across campus?

We also see 25-45% on our main campus. I'm specifically talking about old 
dormitories.



On Mar 22, 2011, at 9:39 PM, Lee H Badman wrote:

> Interesting- we see on the order of 25-45% 5 Ghz usage depending on area, but 
> we design to robust 5 GHz cells.
> 
> 
> 
> From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
> [WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Hanset, Philippe C 
> [phan...@utk.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 4:47 PM
> To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost
> 
> 5 GHz was only usable in hallways (deserted) and the front part of suites 
> (shower and restroom).
> Where users are present we were measuring -80 dBm or less at 5 GHz.
> That dorm doesn't have common areas. In common areas, it would make sense to 
> use 5 GHz of course.
> The extra capacity is provided by providing smaller cells at 2.4 GHz.
> 
> The other problem with weak 5GHz and stronger 2.4GHz is that devices (e.g. 
> Macs!) do not join 5 GHz,
> even if available. Tricks like Bandwidth Steering can help this behavior, but 
> not if the difference is too large
> between the 2 spectrums.
> 
> BTW: If a large majority of users start watching Netflix in restrooms we will 
> have to swap APs!
> 
> Philippe
> 
> 
> On Mar 22, 2011, at 4:26 PM, David J Molta wrote:
> 
> Wasted in what sense, Philippe? Residence halls are obviously high-density 
> environments so capacity is a big concern, especially during peak usage 
> periods. Even if the 5 GHz 11n channel can’t provide full coverage for the 
> area under consideration, if it offloads even 25-30% of the 2.4 GHz 11n 
> traffic, it seems like it would be worth the extra cost because it would 
> result in better performance under heavy contention for both 2.4 GHz and 5 
> GHz users.
> 
> Dave Molta
> 
> 
> On 3/22/11 3:59 PM, "Hanset, Philippe C" 
> > wrote:
> 
> Having done a Dorm Installation last week, let me add another point:
> 
> 5 Ghz is great, but in some places you might want to skip the expense.
> 
> We had no choice but to feed Dorm suites from the center hallway.
> After a thorough testing we came to the conclusion that we would only provide 
> 802.11n at 2.4 GHz
> since too much of the 5 GHz signal was wasted.
> 
> So instead of using Aruba AP-105 ($695 list) everywhere in that building, we 
> settled for Aruba AP-93 ($395 list).
> With the savings, we did smaller cells to somewhat compensate for the lesser 
> capacity.
> Each bedroom still has an ethernet drop (unfortunately unusable for APs for 
> architectural reasons).
> 
> Philippe
> Univ. of TN
> 
> 
> On Mar 22, 2011, at 3:38 PM, heath.barnhart wrote:
> 
> If nothing else, you will have a documentation showing what your coverage is 
> and can uncover any gotchas. If someone says they are having issues in an 
> area, you pull up the survey and have instant access to more information to 
> help uncover the reason behind their issues.
> 
> Heath
> 
> On 3/22/2011 2:11 PM, John Kaftan wrote:
> So I hate to dig this up again but nobody really responded to Jeff Sessler’s 
> post “Given the need for designs based on capacity rather than coverage, do 
> those who've done site surveys previously feel they are still worth the 
> trouble?”
> 
> Seems to me wireless surveys are for determining coverage which is something 
> we can easily measure.  We can require that an area will have no less than 
> -68 dBm signal and do the survey to determine what it will take.  However, if 
> folks are saying that in a high density area like a ResHall just providing 
> coverage is not enough and we must go much denser what good is the survey?  
> If coverage is not enough then how do we determine our density?  Is it just 
> by feel?
> 
> Up until now I figured I was not going to do a survey.  I figured for the 
> cost of the survey I could buy an additional 30-50 APs.  When pulling wire 
> I’d have facilities leave a 20’ coil and pull double the wire I originally 
> guessed based on past experience.  Then we would just “Throw it up” and see 
> what happens.  If we move slowly and do a ResHall at a time we should be able 
> to get a feel for it.
> 
> Now I have a shot at doing a survey this summer after the fact by using 
> students from a nearby University that has a MS in Networking as an 
> internship.  The cost is much less than a professional survey but I have to 
> ask if it is still worth it if capacity is what we are going for?
> 
> Perhaps I should be looking at a different internsh

RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

[Christian.Heroux]

Hello all!

 

We had that problem a while ago. We did a site survey to evaluate the number of 
AP needed to propose an architecture and secure a budget...by the time we had 
the "go" AP changed and technology changed and we had to do another survey with 
the new type of AP.  The first one already cost a lot... we have many floor.. 
around 10K$

 

Finally We didn`t do a site survey, For the first phase we wanted coverage so 
we used the rule of tumb 1 AP to cover a number of meter sq. We validated also 
with the simulation available with Cisco WCS. We have deployed 112 AP and now 
we will add density where needed.

 

We were planning to do buy a software airpeak, Ekahau  and adjust our 
deployment accordingly. I feel the wifi is dynamic not like cable and that add 
to the challenge.

 

The university is always evolving, renovation, wall, office, corridor, 
classroom so the site survey is only valid as long as the physical part don`t 
change much...believe me here the site survey wouldn`t last more than a 
semester with all the construction/evolution. 

 

Maybe residence are more stable environment...

 

Cordialement

 

Christian Héroux Ing., M.Ing., ITIL 

Section systèmes, infrastructures et télécommunications 

École de Technologie Supérieure

Montréal Qc

Canada

Courriel: christian.her...@etsmtl.ca  

Téléphone:(514) 396-8800 ext 7863

 

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv 
[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of John Kaftan
Sent: 14 mars 2011 12:42
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

 

I know this is a crazy question with tons of variables but I am trying to at 
least get an idea of what it would cost to do a wireless survey in our 
residence halls.  We have 7 buildings built over the years with a variety of 
construction materials.  Each building has 3-4 floors.  We have a total of 1100 
students living on campus.  

 

Has anyone had a commercial wireless survey done and if so can you give me any 
idea of what I would be looking at?

 

My intention is to do this via an Internship so I do not really want to shop 
this out and put vendors through the paces.  I just want to give an estimate of 
what it would cost the college if we were to have a commercial provider do the 
work.

 

John Kaftan 

Infrastructure Manager

Utica College

315.792.3102

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE 
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at 
http://www.educause.edu/groups/. 


**
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discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

Re: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost

[jcoehoorn]

Agree I wouldn't run new "port-per-pillow" drops, but I wouldn't ditch  
existing drops (just update the switching) and anywhere you have  
apartment-style living I would put a wired port in the common space for  
game consoles/blu-ray/smart tvs/etc. Those who actually use the ports will  
be the few who know enough to know why it's better, and they also tend to  
be your heaviest users. It's nice to get some of the gaming and netflix  
traffic out of your airspace.


On Mar 15, 2011 7:50pm, John Kaftan  wrote:
Thanks, but I have purchased already. We will be doing this backwards. We  
are pulling extra drops and leaving 20' coils of cable above the ceilings  
and then throw up the APs and see what happens. Not perfect but we have  
been doing alright with that. We have a feel for it and the students  
report happiness. This summer we will do the survey to tighten things up  
a bit. I am considering dropping the wired ports as our LAN is past due  
for a refresh and I do not want to re-invest in the port-per-pillow model.





John





On 3/15/2011 7:09 PM, Brian Helman wrote:



Have you already selected a wireless product? If not, I think you'd be  
far better served issuing an RFP for full procurement and installation,  
with signal guarantees (I'd recommend -68dBm). If you have holes, the  
contract should be on the hook for it. Take advantage of this economy.  
Vendors will jump on this.




Remember, antennas vary GREATLY. If you do a survey and then bid out and  
end up with a different product than you conducted the survey with, you  
could end up with holes.





-Brian






From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv  
[WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of heath.barnhart  
[heath.barnh...@washburn.edu]



Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 9:57 AM



To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU



Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Wireless Site Survey cost




If you have any resellers/technology partners/consultants you might ask  
them. Standard consultant fees would probably apply (I've seen  
$150-$300/hour). If they're good they should be able to survey a couple  
buildings in a day (which should be less than $1500 a floor). You could  
also do it yourself. Someone mentioned Ekahau; we use Airmagnet Survey.  
Its good too have a survey solution for troubleshooting anyways.







--



Heath Barnhart, CCNA



Network Administrator



Information Systems and Services



Washburn University



Topeka, KS 66621







On 3/14/2011 4:46 PM, Winston Chow wrote:


Usually companies don't like to do site surveys because they do it  
assuming you'll buy APs from them. If anything I found that companies  
will do it for a lot of money but give you a significant credit if you  
buy APs/controllers/service from them.





That doesn't work with our procurement system that needs 3 lowest bidders.





Good Luck!





-Winston








On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 6:41 AM, John  
Kaftanjkaftan@utica.edumailto:jkaf...@utica.edu>> wrote:


I know this is a crazy question with tons of variables but I am trying to  
at least get an idea of what it would cost to do a wireless survey in our  
residence halls. We have 7 buildings built over the years with a variety  
of construction materials. Each building has 3-4 floors. We have a total  
of 1100 students living on campus.




Has anyone had a commercial wireless survey done and if so can you give  
me any idea of what I would be looking at?




My intention is to do this via an Internship so I do not really want to  
shop this out and put vendors through the paces. I just want to give an  
estimate of what it would cost the college if we were to have a  
commercial provider do the work.





John Kaftan



Infrastructure Manager



Utica College



315.792.3102


** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE  
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at  
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.




** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE  
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at  
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.









--



Heath Barnhart, CCNA



Network Administrator



Information Systems and Services



Washburn University



Topeka, KS 66621




** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE  
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at  
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.





**


Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent  
Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.






**


Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent  
Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.




**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group 
discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.