RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-14 Thread Dave Molta
These are good points. Your observation that all but the lowest-end
notebooks ship with 11n is fairly consistent with my own observations. In
fact, I don't know whether Intel even offers a new Centrino solution that
doesn't include the 3945 abgn adapter. That fact, along with the Wi-Fi
Certification program, makes it extremely unlikely that there will be major
changes to the final 11n standard. The market dynamics are much different
than they were when I was deploying draft 10BaseT many, many years ago or
even draft 11g a few years ago. I just don't think the standards-compliance
risk is low.

 

Having said that, I do feel the risks associated with early adoption
generally outweigh the benefits but there are always unique circumstances.
Sometimes, it's an uncertain long-term budget issue, sometimes it's internal
political pressure, sometimes it's a desire for visibility. But you need to
weigh that against the maturity and stability of new silicon and new AP's.
Implementing 11n systems that use first-generation silicon has trade-offs,
including PoE and other power management issues, perhaps others that I'm not
aware of. I'd much rather wait for second-generation silicon, which will be
available in products in early 2008. The other risk is that some vendors are
making changes to their architectures, distributing the controller
functionality closer to the edge (in Aerohive's case, all the way to the
edge) to provide more efficient traffic management. While these new
architectures might have merit, I wouldn't want to be the first person on
the block to deploy a new architecture in my production environment.

 

Like others, I think it's a good idea to track the market in coming months
and implement a pilot next summer. 

 

dm

 

  _  

From: Toby Krohn (tkrohn) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 5:00 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

 

Actually, all but the lowest end of client devices are already shipping with
n.  With that said, assuming a conservative 4 year refresh cycle, in just 2
years the simple majority of the clients will be n and in 4 years the
overwhelming majority will be n.  Besides, with MIMO you will see better
performance from your legacy abg clients so the move to n aps has mutiple
drivers/benefits.

Toby Krohn
4049060909
from my Treo

 -Original Message-
From:   Kevin Pait [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent:   Tuesday, November 13, 2007 04:49 PM Eastern Standard Time
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject:Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

We are currently rolling out Cisco a/b/g wireless and asked the vendor
about designing with 802.11n in mind.  The overall response was that the
technology is too immature and any predictions would be highly
speculative.  They also said that the consumer base would not be
populated with N - capable devices within the next 5-8 years in
sufficient numbers to realize an advantage.

So what does the population think about the lifespan of the current
802.11a/b/g technology?



On Tue, 2007-11-13 at 16:09 -0500, Jorj Bauer wrote:
> > > We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor
is
> > > pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability.  We
would
> > > have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment.  Our wired
> > > infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being
10/100
> > > switched.  I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n.
> >
> > I think you are right on. I think as long as your a/b/g network is
working
> > well, the students aren't going to care about 11n. In my mind this is
still
> > a very immature technology.
>
> Personally, I'd hate to put any draft technology on my production
> network.
>
> We went through the same thing with 802.11g. Network researchers (here)
> that started using 802.11g draft hardware suffered innumerable
> interoperability headaches.
>
> -- Jorj
>
>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
-
> Jorj Bauer  |   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Director of Networking  | 3330 Walnut St.
> School of Engineering and Applied Science   |Levine Building, Room 160
> University of Pennsylvania  | Philadelphia, PA 19104
>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
-
>
>
> **
> Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent
Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

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Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-14 Thread Dale W. Carder

On Nov 13, 2007, at 3:46 PM, Jon Freeman wrote:


http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/071113/20071113005700.html?.v=1

Actually, it was a split decision with Xirrus who’s also supporting  
them for the Wi-Fi at the LISA conference in Dallas this week.


I saw the Xirrus AP in the main ballroom.  I couldn't
figure out what it was until I saw this post ;-)

Dale

ps: anyone else at LISA?  Let's meet up.
**
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RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-14 Thread Peter P Morrissey
I would love to hear what made you David, or Dan from CMU choose Aruba
and Xirrus, and why both.
Pete M.

> -Original Message-
> From: David Gillett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 11:18 AM
> To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0
> 
> Dan,
> 
> I'd be interested in your experience integrating Xirrus with Aruba.
> We're deploying Aruba now, but there are a couple of high-density
> areas (not yet deployed) for which I've been thinking of Xirrus as
> an informal "Plan B" in case it's needed.  I haven't been sure how
> practical that would prove to be
> 
> David Gillett
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Dan McCarriar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:14 PM
> > To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
> > Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0
> >
> > Lee,
> >
> > As was noted by others earlier today, we recently announced
> > our new Wireless Andrew 2.0 project, which will bring 802.11n
> > to the campus wireless network using equipment from Aruba and
> > Xirrus.  I'm happy to answer any questions you might have.
> >
> > -Dan
> >
> > 
> > Dan McCarriar
> > Assistant Director, Network Services
> > Computing Services
> > Carnegie Mellon University
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> > On Nov 13, 2007, at 3:25 PM, Lee Weers wrote:
> >
> > > We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my
> > supervisor
> > > is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0
> > capability.  We
> > > would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full
> > deployment.  Our
> > > wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about
> > 90% of it
> > > being 10/100 switched.  I'd like to know what other schools
> > are doing
> > > with 802.11n.
> > >
> > > Thank you,
> > >
> > > Lee Weers
> > > Assistant Director for Network Services Central College IT
Services
> > > (641) 628-7675
> > >
> > > ** Participation and subscription information for this
> > > EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
> > > http://www.educause.edu/groups/ .
> >
> > **
> > Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
> > Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
> > http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
> >
> 
> **
> Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent
> Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

**
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RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-14 Thread David Gillett
Dan,

I'd be interested in your experience integrating Xirrus with Aruba.
We're deploying Aruba now, but there are a couple of high-density 
areas (not yet deployed) for which I've been thinking of Xirrus as
an informal "Plan B" in case it's needed.  I haven't been sure how
practical that would prove to be

David Gillett
 

> -Original Message-
> From: Dan McCarriar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:14 PM
> To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0
> 
> Lee,
> 
> As was noted by others earlier today, we recently announced 
> our new Wireless Andrew 2.0 project, which will bring 802.11n 
> to the campus wireless network using equipment from Aruba and 
> Xirrus.  I'm happy to answer any questions you might have.
> 
> -Dan
> 
> 
> Dan McCarriar
> Assistant Director, Network Services
> Computing Services
> Carnegie Mellon University
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> On Nov 13, 2007, at 3:25 PM, Lee Weers wrote:
> 
> > We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my 
> supervisor 
> > is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 
> capability.  We 
> > would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full 
> deployment.  Our 
> > wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 
> 90% of it 
> > being 10/100 switched.  I'd like to know what other schools 
> are doing 
> > with 802.11n.
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Lee Weers
> > Assistant Director for Network Services Central College IT Services
> > (641) 628-7675
> >
> > ** Participation and subscription information for this 
> > EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at 
> > http://www.educause.edu/groups/ .
> 
> **
> Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE 
> Constituent Group discussion list can be found at 
> http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
> 

**
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discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.


Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-14 Thread Kevin Miller
Something that I think is worth noting.. desktop administrators have 
asked us if they should be buying 802.11n client adapters. Our general 
response has been 'yes', with the usual caveat about potential hardware 
changes between now and final ratification. (In most cases I've seen the 
'n' adapters are only slightly more expensive than b/g.)


However, we're being explicit in encouraging the use of 802.11a/b/g/n 
rather than b/g/n.. as a friendlier way of stating that we'd like to see 
dual-band adapters for the channel capacity in 5GHz.


May be worth considering even without infrastructure plans.

-Kevin

Lee H Badman wrote:
Hmmm... at SU, in certain areas, we see well over 50% for 802.11a at any 
given time. Overall, we see around 35-40% 802.11a. One thing that's 
interesting (not yet proven, but some good circumstantial evidence) is 
we see our newer Macintoshes clinging like grim death to weak 802.11a 
cells where g would be a far better bet. We have about a 30% Mac 
penetration on wireless- our lows are about 2,500 simultaneous clients 
and highs are around 5,500 at peak on any given day.


I agree that 802.11a is not as prevalent as 802.11g, but it has gained 
tremendously for us over the last two years with newer laptops. We 
deploy a/g APs as they cost no more than just g. We design largely for 
'a', especially where we know we'll be dense for users.


Is interesting discussion.

Lee


-Original Message-
From: Frank Bulk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tue 11/13/2007 9:30 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

Those are two events with rather technically savvy people who will set their
radios to prefer 802.11a. =)

So I would call 60% the high watermark.  Most organizations will see less
than this.

Regards,

Frank

  _ 


From: Jon Freeman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 8:16 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0



We supplied wi-fi to Interop this year where 60% of all clients connecting
were 11a.  We're seeing the same stats at the ITU in Geneva during the world
radio congress last month.

Del'Oro indicated the majority shipping of tri-mode or 11a stations occured
in June of 06.

Regards,
Jon
303-808-2666


 -Original Message-
From:   Frank Bulk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent:   Tuesday, November 13, 2007 06:05 PM Pacific Standard Time
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject:Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

For those organizations that are risk-averse and/or price conscious, the
best choice may be deploying 802.11b/g everywhere now (in positions where an
802.11n AP could be dropped in later) and then upgrading to 802.11n in 2-3
years.  This best applies to those who have no wireless today.

If you're wondering why I skipped dual-radio/dual-mode APs that support
802.11a, it's because it's going to add $100+ per AP.  Yes, 802.11a is
growing, but it's predominately an 802.11b/g client world today upgrading to
dual-band 802.11n.

Frank

-Original Message-
From: Philippe Hanset [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 4:58 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

Lee,

It's all about be willing to pay the price of being an early adopter!
Is it better to deploy an early 802.11n today and deal with the
consequences (two cat5, two 802.3af ports, I wonder if you can
etherchannel two 100 Mbps ports for each AP since you bring two cat5
anyway!)
or wait for a later 802.11n with 802.3at for power (one cable) and
by that time change your HP procurve 10/100 to Gig Switches
anyway! Meanwhile deploy a cheap 802.11g infrastructure.

In our case we still deploy 802.11g networks, while waiting for "n" and
"at" to settle down (we will have n in a few "advanced building" as pilots)

In a world where people downgrade OSes to the previous one, I wouldn't
worry too much about being bleeding edge ;-)

Philippe Hanset
University of Tennessee
--

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007, Lee Weers wrote:

 > We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is
pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability.  We would
have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment.  Our wired
infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100
switched.  I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n.
 >
 > Thank you,
 >
 > Lee Weers
 > Assistant Director for Network Services
 > Central College IT Services
 > (641) 628-7675
 >
 >
 > **
 > Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent
Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
 >

**
Participation and subscripti

RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread Lee H Badman
Hmmm... at SU, in certain areas, we see well over 50% for 802.11a at any given 
time. Overall, we see around 35-40% 802.11a. One thing that's interesting (not 
yet proven, but some good circumstantial evidence) is we see our newer 
Macintoshes clinging like grim death to weak 802.11a cells where g would be a 
far better bet. We have about a 30% Mac penetration on wireless- our lows are 
about 2,500 simultaneous clients and highs are around 5,500 at peak on any 
given day.

I agree that 802.11a is not as prevalent as 802.11g, but it has gained 
tremendously for us over the last two years with newer laptops. We deploy a/g 
APs as they cost no more than just g. We design largely for 'a', especially 
where we know we'll be dense for users.

Is interesting discussion.

Lee


-Original Message-
From: Frank Bulk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tue 11/13/2007 9:30 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0
 
Those are two events with rather technically savvy people who will set their
radios to prefer 802.11a. =)
 
So I would call 60% the high watermark.  Most organizations will see less
than this.
 
Regards,
 
Frank

  _  

From: Jon Freeman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 8:16 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0



We supplied wi-fi to Interop this year where 60% of all clients connecting
were 11a.  We're seeing the same stats at the ITU in Geneva during the world
radio congress last month.

Del'Oro indicated the majority shipping of tri-mode or 11a stations occured
in June of 06.

Regards,
Jon
303-808-2666


 -Original Message-
From:   Frank Bulk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent:   Tuesday, November 13, 2007 06:05 PM Pacific Standard Time
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject:    Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

For those organizations that are risk-averse and/or price conscious, the
best choice may be deploying 802.11b/g everywhere now (in positions where an
802.11n AP could be dropped in later) and then upgrading to 802.11n in 2-3
years.  This best applies to those who have no wireless today.

If you're wondering why I skipped dual-radio/dual-mode APs that support
802.11a, it's because it's going to add $100+ per AP.  Yes, 802.11a is
growing, but it's predominately an 802.11b/g client world today upgrading to
dual-band 802.11n.

Frank

-Original Message-
From: Philippe Hanset [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 4:58 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

Lee,

It's all about be willing to pay the price of being an early adopter!
Is it better to deploy an early 802.11n today and deal with the
consequences (two cat5, two 802.3af ports, I wonder if you can
etherchannel two 100 Mbps ports for each AP since you bring two cat5
anyway!)
or wait for a later 802.11n with 802.3at for power (one cable) and
by that time change your HP procurve 10/100 to Gig Switches
anyway! Meanwhile deploy a cheap 802.11g infrastructure.

In our case we still deploy 802.11g networks, while waiting for "n" and
"at" to settle down (we will have n in a few "advanced building" as pilots)

In a world where people downgrade OSes to the previous one, I wouldn't
worry too much about being bleeding edge ;-)

Philippe Hanset
University of Tennessee
--

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007, Lee Weers wrote:

> We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is
pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability.  We would
have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment.  Our wired
infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100
switched.  I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Lee Weers
> Assistant Director for Network Services
> Central College IT Services
> (641) 628-7675
>
>
> **
> Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent
Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
>

**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent
Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent
Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.



** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group 
discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.


**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group 
discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.


RE: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread Frank Bulk
Those are two events with rather technically savvy people who will set their
radios to prefer 802.11a. =)
 
So I would call 60% the high watermark.  Most organizations will see less
than this.
 
Regards,
 
Frank

  _  

From: Jon Freeman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 8:16 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0



We supplied wi-fi to Interop this year where 60% of all clients connecting
were 11a.  We're seeing the same stats at the ITU in Geneva during the world
radio congress last month.

Del'Oro indicated the majority shipping of tri-mode or 11a stations occured
in June of 06.

Regards,
Jon
303-808-2666


 -Original Message-
From:   Frank Bulk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent:   Tuesday, November 13, 2007 06:05 PM Pacific Standard Time
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject:    Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

For those organizations that are risk-averse and/or price conscious, the
best choice may be deploying 802.11b/g everywhere now (in positions where an
802.11n AP could be dropped in later) and then upgrading to 802.11n in 2-3
years.  This best applies to those who have no wireless today.

If you're wondering why I skipped dual-radio/dual-mode APs that support
802.11a, it's because it's going to add $100+ per AP.  Yes, 802.11a is
growing, but it's predominately an 802.11b/g client world today upgrading to
dual-band 802.11n.

Frank

-Original Message-
From: Philippe Hanset [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 4:58 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

Lee,

It's all about be willing to pay the price of being an early adopter!
Is it better to deploy an early 802.11n today and deal with the
consequences (two cat5, two 802.3af ports, I wonder if you can
etherchannel two 100 Mbps ports for each AP since you bring two cat5
anyway!)
or wait for a later 802.11n with 802.3at for power (one cable) and
by that time change your HP procurve 10/100 to Gig Switches
anyway! Meanwhile deploy a cheap 802.11g infrastructure.

In our case we still deploy 802.11g networks, while waiting for "n" and
"at" to settle down (we will have n in a few "advanced building" as pilots)

In a world where people downgrade OSes to the previous one, I wouldn't
worry too much about being bleeding edge ;-)

Philippe Hanset
University of Tennessee
--

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007, Lee Weers wrote:

> We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is
pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability.  We would
have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment.  Our wired
infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100
switched.  I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Lee Weers
> Assistant Director for Network Services
> Central College IT Services
> (641) 628-7675
>
>
> **
> Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent
Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
>

**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent
Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent
Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.



** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group 
discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.


Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread Jon Freeman
We supplied wi-fi to Interop this year where 60% of all clients connecting were 
11a.  We're seeing the same stats at the ITU in Geneva during the world radio 
congress last month.

Del'Oro indicated the majority shipping of tri-mode or 11a stations occured in 
June of 06.

Regards,
Jon
303-808-2666


 -Original Message-
From:   Frank Bulk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent:   Tuesday, November 13, 2007 06:05 PM Pacific Standard Time
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject:    Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

For those organizations that are risk-averse and/or price conscious, the
best choice may be deploying 802.11b/g everywhere now (in positions where an
802.11n AP could be dropped in later) and then upgrading to 802.11n in 2-3
years.  This best applies to those who have no wireless today.

If you're wondering why I skipped dual-radio/dual-mode APs that support
802.11a, it's because it's going to add $100+ per AP.  Yes, 802.11a is
growing, but it's predominately an 802.11b/g client world today upgrading to
dual-band 802.11n.

Frank

-Original Message-
From: Philippe Hanset [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 4:58 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

Lee,

It's all about be willing to pay the price of being an early adopter!
Is it better to deploy an early 802.11n today and deal with the
consequences (two cat5, two 802.3af ports, I wonder if you can
etherchannel two 100 Mbps ports for each AP since you bring two cat5
anyway!)
or wait for a later 802.11n with 802.3at for power (one cable) and
by that time change your HP procurve 10/100 to Gig Switches
anyway! Meanwhile deploy a cheap 802.11g infrastructure.

In our case we still deploy 802.11g networks, while waiting for "n" and
"at" to settle down (we will have n in a few "advanced building" as pilots)

In a world where people downgrade OSes to the previous one, I wouldn't
worry too much about being bleeding edge ;-)

Philippe Hanset
University of Tennessee
--

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007, Lee Weers wrote:

> We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is
pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability.  We would
have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment.  Our wired
infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100
switched.  I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Lee Weers
> Assistant Director for Network Services
> Central College IT Services
> (641) 628-7675
>
>
> **
> Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent
Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
>

**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent
Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group 
discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.


**
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RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread Frank Bulk
Dan:

All the best.  I would be most interested in hearing about your PoE and your
approach with existing APs.

Kind regards,

Frank

-Original Message-
From: Dan McCarriar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 5:14 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

Lee,

As was noted by others earlier today, we recently announced our new
Wireless Andrew 2.0 project, which will bring 802.11n to the campus
wireless network using equipment from Aruba and Xirrus.  I'm happy to
answer any questions you might have.

-Dan


Dan McCarriar
Assistant Director, Network Services
Computing Services
Carnegie Mellon University
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


On Nov 13, 2007, at 3:25 PM, Lee Weers wrote:

> We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my
> supervisor is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0
> capability.  We would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full
> deployment.  Our wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve
> with about 90% of it being 10/100 switched.  I'd like to know what
> other schools are doing with 802.11n.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Lee Weers
> Assistant Director for Network Services
> Central College IT Services
> (641) 628-7675
>
> ** Participation and subscription information for this
> EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/
> .

**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent
Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group 
discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.


RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread Frank Bulk
For those organizations that are risk-averse and/or price conscious, the
best choice may be deploying 802.11b/g everywhere now (in positions where an
802.11n AP could be dropped in later) and then upgrading to 802.11n in 2-3
years.  This best applies to those who have no wireless today.

If you're wondering why I skipped dual-radio/dual-mode APs that support
802.11a, it's because it's going to add $100+ per AP.  Yes, 802.11a is
growing, but it's predominately an 802.11b/g client world today upgrading to
dual-band 802.11n.

Frank

-Original Message-
From: Philippe Hanset [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 4:58 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

Lee,

It's all about be willing to pay the price of being an early adopter!
Is it better to deploy an early 802.11n today and deal with the
consequences (two cat5, two 802.3af ports, I wonder if you can
etherchannel two 100 Mbps ports for each AP since you bring two cat5
anyway!)
or wait for a later 802.11n with 802.3at for power (one cable) and
by that time change your HP procurve 10/100 to Gig Switches
anyway! Meanwhile deploy a cheap 802.11g infrastructure.

In our case we still deploy 802.11g networks, while waiting for "n" and
"at" to settle down (we will have n in a few "advanced building" as pilots)

In a world where people downgrade OSes to the previous one, I wouldn't
worry too much about being bleeding edge ;-)

Philippe Hanset
University of Tennessee
--

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007, Lee Weers wrote:

> We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is
pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability.  We would
have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment.  Our wired
infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100
switched.  I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Lee Weers
> Assistant Director for Network Services
> Central College IT Services
> (641) 628-7675
>
>
> **
> Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent
Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
>

**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent
Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group 
discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.


RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread Tom Magrini
Pete & Lee,

 

Same opinion here.  I'm focusing on increased coverage.  I plan on piloting
11n over the summer, but I have no plans for deployment at this time.  Of
the 18,000 or so users that utilize the UA's wireless network, I have not
heard any complaints about bandwidth.  I wouldn't expect it either given
that most students are used to the performance they get on their home DSL or
cable connections.

 

Tom Magrini

Assistant Director, Network Services

University Information Technology Services

The University of Arizona

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

 

 

 

From: Peter Morrissey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:02 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

 

Lee,

I think you are right on. I think as long as your a/b/g network is working
well, the students aren't going to care about 11n. In my mind this is still
a very immature technology. I think it would be very hard to demonstrate any
noticeable benefit to a typical student using wireless. Sure, you are going
to see them coming in with 11n on laptops next fall, but my understanding is
that it will be backwards compatible with abg. I  wouldn't consider it at
this point unless I was starting from scratch, and even then I think it
would be a tough call. BTW, Meru claims to have 11n and I think I heard
Aruba has it or is about to release an 11n solution as well. We are
concentrating more on increasing our coverage for now, and watching and
waiting on 11n. We may do a small pilot this summer. 

Pete Morrissey

 

  _  

From: Lee Weers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:42 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

 

For wireless we currently have an Aruba 2400, and a HP WESM xl module.
About a year ago I did a comparison (mostly on paper) of a campus wide
deployment of Aruba, Trapeze, Procurve, Xirrus, Cisco, and Siemens.  It came
down to Procurve for several reasons.  1.  It is very simple to setup and
maintain.  2.  It has supported 802.1x a lot easier than our Aruba
deployment  3.  It is the least expensive to maintain year over year
(Lifetime warranty).

 

The only reason why he is pushing Cisco is they are shipping N now, and he
is concerned there will be a politically backlash from the students with the
technology fee increase.

 

My opinion is the students won't care if it is a/b/g or n.  They just want
wireless.

 

  _  

From: Lee H Badman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:36 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

Hi Lee-

 

I would encourage an eyes-open, non-biased bake-off if you have no wireless
now. Regardless of what APs you settle on, scrutinize the management
component closely. You may end up with a whiz-bang WLAN, but if you become a
slave to the management tool, you'll likely be looking for alternatives not
too far down the road. The management component (and the hidden costs that
you'd do well to ferret out before purchasing by grilling others who have
gone before you), add a significant amount to your TCO. 

 

For us, we're seeing what early adopters have to say on 802.11n. Especially
large schools with thousands of APs that also do 802.1x. You probably
realize that 802.11n can impact your PoE and data wiring strategy, along
with the number of APs, etc. 

 

 

Keep us posted as you proceed. Out of curiosity- did the push for Cisco by
your supervisor come after a comparison with other vendors?

 

Regards-

 

Lee

 

Lee H. Badman

Wireless/Network Engineer

Information Technology and Services

Syracuse University

315 443-3003

  _  

From: Lee Weers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:25 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

 

We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is
pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability.  We would
have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment.  Our wired
infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100
switched.  I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n.

Thank you, 
  
Lee Weers 
Assistant Director for Network Services 
Central College IT Services 
(641) 628-7675 

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription
information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found
at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription
information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group dis

Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread Dan McCarriar

Lee,

As was noted by others earlier today, we recently announced our new  
Wireless Andrew 2.0 project, which will bring 802.11n to the campus  
wireless network using equipment from Aruba and Xirrus.  I'm happy to  
answer any questions you might have.


-Dan


Dan McCarriar
Assistant Director, Network Services
Computing Services
Carnegie Mellon University
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


On Nov 13, 2007, at 3:25 PM, Lee Weers wrote:

We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my  
supervisor is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0  
capability.  We would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full  
deployment.  Our wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve  
with about 90% of it being 10/100 switched.  I'd like to know what  
other schools are doing with 802.11n.


Thank you,

Lee Weers
Assistant Director for Network Services
Central College IT Services
(641) 628-7675

** Participation and subscription information for this  
EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/ 
.


**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group 
discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.


RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread Toby Krohn (tkrohn)
agreed - you will always have those legacy issues, good thing for
backwards compatibility.  But its not like we are just get accustomed to
WLAN now.  The expectations are higher.  g rolled out much quicker than
b and n will roll out much quicker than g.
 




From: Frank Bulk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 5:54 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0



Good point, though those legacy client devices seem to stick around
longer than you think.  In any case, shipping chipsets will be
predominately 802.11n by 2009 and my guess is that the installed base of
clients will reach 50% that year.  

 

I think Kevin's 5 to 8 years is much too conservative.

 

Frank

 

From: Toby Krohn (tkrohn) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 4:00 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

 

Actually, all but the lowest end of client devices are already shipping
with n.  With that said, assuming a conservative 4 year refresh cycle,
in just 2 years the simple majority of the clients will be n and in 4
years the overwhelming majority will be n.  Besides, with MIMO you will
see better performance from your legacy abg clients so the move to n aps
has mutiple drivers/benefits.

Toby Krohn
4049060909
from my Treo

 -Original Message-
From:   Kevin Pait [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent:   Tuesday, November 13, 2007 04:49 PM Eastern Standard Time
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject:        Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

We are currently rolling out Cisco a/b/g wireless and asked the vendor
about designing with 802.11n in mind.  The overall response was that the
technology is too immature and any predictions would be highly
speculative.  They also said that the consumer base would not be
populated with N - capable devices within the next 5-8 years in
sufficient numbers to realize an advantage.

So what does the population think about the lifespan of the current
802.11a/b/g technology?



On Tue, 2007-11-13 at 16:09 -0500, Jorj Bauer wrote:
> > > We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my
supervisor is
> > > pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability.  We
would
> > > have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment.  Our
wired
> > > infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it
being 10/100
> > > switched.  I'd like to know what other schools are doing with
802.11n.
> >
> > I think you are right on. I think as long as your a/b/g network is
working
> > well, the students aren't going to care about 11n. In my mind this
is still
> > a very immature technology.
>
> Personally, I'd hate to put any draft technology on my production
> network.
>
> We went through the same thing with 802.11g. Network researchers
(here)
> that started using 802.11g draft hardware suffered innumerable
> interoperability headaches.
>
> -- Jorj
>
>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
-=-=-
> Jorj Bauer  |
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Director of Networking  | 3330 Walnut St.
> School of Engineering and Applied Science   |Levine Building, Room
160
> University of Pennsylvania  | Philadelphia, PA
19104
>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
-=-=-
>
>
> **
> Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent
Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/. 

**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group 
discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.


Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread Philippe Hanset
Lee,

It's all about be willing to pay the price of being an early adopter!
Is it better to deploy an early 802.11n today and deal with the
consequences (two cat5, two 802.3af ports, I wonder if you can
etherchannel two 100 Mbps ports for each AP since you bring two cat5
anyway!)
or wait for a later 802.11n with 802.3at for power (one cable) and
by that time change your HP procurve 10/100 to Gig Switches
anyway! Meanwhile deploy a cheap 802.11g infrastructure.

In our case we still deploy 802.11g networks, while waiting for "n" and
"at" to settle down (we will have n in a few "advanced building" as pilots)

In a world where people downgrade OSes to the previous one, I wouldn't
worry too much about being bleeding edge ;-)

Philippe Hanset
University of Tennessee
--

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007, Lee Weers wrote:

> We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is 
> pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability.  We would have 
> about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment.  Our wired 
> infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100 
> switched.  I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Lee Weers
> Assistant Director for Network Services
> Central College IT Services
> (641) 628-7675
>
>
> **
> Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent 
> Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
>

**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group 
discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.


RE: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread Frank Bulk
Good point, though those legacy client devices seem to stick around longer
than you think.  In any case, shipping chipsets will be predominately
802.11n by 2009 and my guess is that the installed base of clients will
reach 50% that year.  

 

I think Kevin's 5 to 8 years is much too conservative.

 

Frank

 

From: Toby Krohn (tkrohn) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 4:00 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

 

Actually, all but the lowest end of client devices are already shipping with
n.  With that said, assuming a conservative 4 year refresh cycle, in just 2
years the simple majority of the clients will be n and in 4 years the
overwhelming majority will be n.  Besides, with MIMO you will see better
performance from your legacy abg clients so the move to n aps has mutiple
drivers/benefits.

Toby Krohn
4049060909
from my Treo

 -Original Message-
From:   Kevin Pait [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent:   Tuesday, November 13, 2007 04:49 PM Eastern Standard Time
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject:        Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

We are currently rolling out Cisco a/b/g wireless and asked the vendor
about designing with 802.11n in mind.  The overall response was that the
technology is too immature and any predictions would be highly
speculative.  They also said that the consumer base would not be
populated with N - capable devices within the next 5-8 years in
sufficient numbers to realize an advantage.

So what does the population think about the lifespan of the current
802.11a/b/g technology?



On Tue, 2007-11-13 at 16:09 -0500, Jorj Bauer wrote:
> > > We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor
is
> > > pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability.  We
would
> > > have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment.  Our wired
> > > infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being
10/100
> > > switched.  I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n.
> >
> > I think you are right on. I think as long as your a/b/g network is
working
> > well, the students aren't going to care about 11n. In my mind this is
still
> > a very immature technology.
>
> Personally, I'd hate to put any draft technology on my production
> network.
>
> We went through the same thing with 802.11g. Network researchers (here)
> that started using 802.11g draft hardware suffered innumerable
> interoperability headaches.
>
> -- Jorj
>
>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
-
> Jorj Bauer  |   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Director of Networking  | 3330 Walnut St.
> School of Engineering and Applied Science   |Levine Building, Room 160
> University of Pennsylvania  | Philadelphia, PA 19104
>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
-
>
>
> **
> Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent
Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent
Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.


**
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RE: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread Frank Bulk
Michael:

 

Was capacity defined around number of users per AP, bandwidth per AP, or
some other metric?

 

Kind regards,

 

Frank

 

From: King, Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:32 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

 

True, you are correct about the gig port.

 

However, it's something to be aware of.  I can think of a few locations were
I've designed networks, and they are at the design capacity.  (And we didn't
expect it to happen that fast.  We designed for about 16 users per AP Max
load)

 

From: Frank Bulk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 4:25 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

 

Michael:

 

I would argue that 802.11n APs don't require gigabit Ethernet ports, though
it would help with the occasional burst of traffic.  Schools who can't
afford an edge switch and wireless upgrade in one year could easily get away
with doing 802.11n draft gear this year, and edge switching the next.  

 

In regards to power, almost all the vendors have some kind of solution or
workaround.  Some use a second Ethernet port others power down a radio
chain.  Cisco is using CDP to negotiate more power out of select models of
their switch - see this article for more details:

http://www.networkcomputing.com/immersion/802.11n/showArticle.jhtml?articleI
D=201804302

 

Good point about the certification for GigE mid-span PoE.  I'm not sure if
the IEEE 802.3af standard ever addressed mid-span for GigE, but it is
addressed in 802.3at.

 

Regards,

 

Frank

 

From: King, Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:29 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

 

Great question..

 

Two points you need to know...

 

1252's require gigabit Ethernet ports.  (Any 802.11n is going to need
gigabit Ethernet ports.  The actual throughput is over 100Mbs)

 

You'll need extra power.  Not many (if any) 802.11n AP's with dual radios
can run on standard POE.  Cisco is supposed to be releasing a firmware for
their 3750's that will allow it to power the 1252's, but otherwise you'll be
regulated to power injectors, or third party mid-span devices. (That are gig
certified)

 

Mike

 

From: Lee Weers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:25 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

 

We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is
pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability.  We would
have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment.  Our wired
infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100
switched.  I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n.

Thank you, 
  
Lee Weers 
Assistant Director for Network Services 
Central College IT Services 
(641) 628-7675 

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/. 

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/. 

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/. 


**
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Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread Toby Krohn (tkrohn)
Actually, all but the lowest end of client devices are already shipping with n. 
 With that said, assuming a conservative 4 year refresh cycle, in just 2 years 
the simple majority of the clients will be n and in 4 years the overwhelming 
majority will be n.  Besides, with MIMO you will see better performance from 
your legacy abg clients so the move to n aps has mutiple drivers/benefits.

Toby Krohn
4049060909
from my Treo

 -Original Message-
From:   Kevin Pait [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent:   Tuesday, November 13, 2007 04:49 PM Eastern Standard Time
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject:Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

We are currently rolling out Cisco a/b/g wireless and asked the vendor
about designing with 802.11n in mind.  The overall response was that the
technology is too immature and any predictions would be highly
speculative.  They also said that the consumer base would not be
populated with N - capable devices within the next 5-8 years in
sufficient numbers to realize an advantage.

So what does the population think about the lifespan of the current
802.11a/b/g technology?



On Tue, 2007-11-13 at 16:09 -0500, Jorj Bauer wrote:
> > > We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is
> > > pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability.  We would
> > > have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment.  Our wired
> > > infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 
> > > 10/100
> > > switched.  I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n.
> > 
> > I think you are right on. I think as long as your a/b/g network is working
> > well, the students aren't going to care about 11n. In my mind this is still
> > a very immature technology.
> 
> Personally, I'd hate to put any draft technology on my production 
> network.
> 
> We went through the same thing with 802.11g. Network researchers (here) 
> that started using 802.11g draft hardware suffered innumerable 
> interoperability headaches.
> 
> -- Jorj
> 
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Jorj Bauer  |   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Director of Networking  | 3330 Walnut St.
> School of Engineering and Applied Science   |Levine Building, Room 160
> University of Pennsylvania  | Philadelphia, PA 19104
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> 
> 
> **
> Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent 
> Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

**
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discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

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RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread Lee Weers
I don't see a finalization of 802.11n anytime soon.  If I remember right
the original draft was supposed to be finalized by now, but then pushed
it back to Spring 08 then Oct 08 and now Mar 09.  I wouldn't be suprised
to see it pushed back yet again.  I was also concerned about not seeing
a release on 3 patents to the IEEE standards body yet, but then just
found this article.
http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/10/02/WLAN-patent-threat-may-be-reso
lved_1.html

I think a/b/g will be here for quite some time.

-Original Message-
From: Kevin Pait [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:38 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

We are currently rolling out Cisco a/b/g wireless and asked the vendor
about designing with 802.11n in mind.  The overall response was that the
technology is too immature and any predictions would be highly
speculative.  They also said that the consumer base would not be
populated with N - capable devices within the next 5-8 years in
sufficient numbers to realize an advantage.

So what does the population think about the lifespan of the current
802.11a/b/g technology?



On Tue, 2007-11-13 at 16:09 -0500, Jorj Bauer wrote:
> > > We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my 
> > > supervisor is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 
> > > capability.  We would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in 
> > > full deployment.  Our wired infrastructure is currently 100% 
> > > Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100 switched.  I'd like to
know what other schools are doing with 802.11n.
> > 
> > I think you are right on. I think as long as your a/b/g network is 
> > working well, the students aren't going to care about 11n. In my 
> > mind this is still a very immature technology.
> 
> Personally, I'd hate to put any draft technology on my production 
> network.
> 
> We went through the same thing with 802.11g. Network researchers 
> (here) that started using 802.11g draft hardware suffered innumerable 
> interoperability headaches.
> 
> -- Jorj
> 
>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
-=-=-
> Jorj Bauer  |
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Director of Networking  | 3330 Walnut St.
> School of Engineering and Applied Science   |Levine Building, Room
160
> University of Pennsylvania  | Philadelphia, PA
19104
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> -=-=-=-
> 
> 
> **
> Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

**
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Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread Kevin Miller

It probably is no surprise but we have a 1252-based pilot in operation
now, with ongoing conversations about when/how to expand. All of the
concerns raised so far are valid, and under discussion. Currently we're
using individual power injectors to Gig switches, but we all know how
well individual injectors scale. :)

It's a small pilot.. only 8 APs, but interesting nonetheless. Apple
laptops manufactured since ~January and other vendors since ~June often
have 802.11a/b/g/(pre)-n, and they are definitely connecting using 'n'
in the pilot area. Of course they are connecting fine using a/b/g
elsewhere.

-Kevin

Lee Weers wrote:
We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor 
is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability.  We 
would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment.  Our 
wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it 
being 10/100 switched.  I'd like to know what other schools are doing 
with 802.11n.


Thank you,
 
Lee Weers

Assistant Director for Network Services
Central College IT Services
(641) 628-7675

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE 
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at 
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Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread Kevin Pait
We are currently rolling out Cisco a/b/g wireless and asked the vendor
about designing with 802.11n in mind.  The overall response was that the
technology is too immature and any predictions would be highly
speculative.  They also said that the consumer base would not be
populated with N - capable devices within the next 5-8 years in
sufficient numbers to realize an advantage.

So what does the population think about the lifespan of the current
802.11a/b/g technology?



On Tue, 2007-11-13 at 16:09 -0500, Jorj Bauer wrote:
> > > We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is
> > > pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability.  We would
> > > have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment.  Our wired
> > > infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 
> > > 10/100
> > > switched.  I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n.
> > 
> > I think you are right on. I think as long as your a/b/g network is working
> > well, the students aren't going to care about 11n. In my mind this is still
> > a very immature technology.
> 
> Personally, I'd hate to put any draft technology on my production 
> network.
> 
> We went through the same thing with 802.11g. Network researchers (here) 
> that started using 802.11g draft hardware suffered innumerable 
> interoperability headaches.
> 
> -- Jorj
> 
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Jorj Bauer  |   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Director of Networking  | 3330 Walnut St.
> School of Engineering and Applied Science   |Levine Building, Room 160
> University of Pennsylvania  | Philadelphia, PA 19104
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> 
> 
> **
> Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent 
> Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

**
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RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread Jon Freeman
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/071113/20071113005700.html?.v=1

 

Actually, it was a split decision with Xirrus who's also supporting them
for the Wi-Fi at the LISA conference in Dallas this week.

 



From: Russ Leathe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:41 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

 

Carnegie Mellon just went through an extensive "N" evalthey chose
Aruba.

 

http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/071112/0324644.html

 

 

 

From: Lee Weers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:25 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

 

We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor
is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability.  We
would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment.  Our
wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it
being 10/100 switched.  I'd like to know what other schools are doing
with 802.11n.

Thank you, 
  
Lee Weers 
Assistant Director for Network Services 
Central College IT Services 
(641) 628-7675 

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

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Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

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RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread Peter Morrissey
I'm pretty sure Powerdsine/Microsemi has certified its midspan products to
work with a number of vendors' gigabit switches. 

Pete M.

 

  _  

From: Frank Bulk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 4:25 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

 

Michael:

 

I would argue that 802.11n APs don't require gigabit Ethernet ports, though
it would help with the occasional burst of traffic.  Schools who can't
afford an edge switch and wireless upgrade in one year could easily get away
with doing 802.11n draft gear this year, and edge switching the next.  

 

In regards to power, almost all the vendors have some kind of solution or
workaround.  Some use a second Ethernet port others power down a radio
chain.  Cisco is using CDP to negotiate more power out of select models of
their switch - see this article for more details:

http://www.networkcomputing.com/immersion/802.11n/showArticle.jhtml?articleI
D=201804302

 

Good point about the certification for GigE mid-span PoE.  I'm not sure if
the IEEE 802.3af standard ever addressed mid-span for GigE, but it is
addressed in 802.3at.

 

Regards,

 

Frank

 

From: King, Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:29 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

 

Great question..

 

Two points you need to know...

 

1252's require gigabit Ethernet ports.  (Any 802.11n is going to need
gigabit Ethernet ports.  The actual throughput is over 100Mbs)

 

You'll need extra power.  Not many (if any) 802.11n AP's with dual radios
can run on standard POE.  Cisco is supposed to be releasing a firmware for
their 3750's that will allow it to power the 1252's, but otherwise you'll be
regulated to power injectors, or third party mid-span devices. (That are gig
certified)

 

Mike

 

From: Lee Weers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:25 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

 

We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is
pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability.  We would
have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment.  Our wired
infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100
switched.  I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n.

Thank you, 
  
Lee Weers 
Assistant Director for Network Services 
Central College IT Services 
(641) 628-7675 

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/. 

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group 
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RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread Russ Leathe
Carnegie Mellon just went through an extensive "N" evalthey chose
Aruba.

 

http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/071112/0324644.html

 

 

 

From: Lee Weers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:25 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

 

We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor
is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability.  We
would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment.  Our
wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it
being 10/100 switched.  I'd like to know what other schools are doing
with 802.11n.

Thank you, 
  
Lee Weers 
Assistant Director for Network Services 
Central College IT Services 
(641) 628-7675 

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.


**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group 
discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.


RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread Hizny, Michael
You are correct that Cisco is shipping N now, but the 1250 AP's are
modular to accommodate any changes to the 802.11n draft that would
require a radio modification.  There are 6 external antennas on the box
and they weigh about as much as a cinder block.  They are not really
good for ceiling mounting.  I personally would wait until this
technology is a bit more mature and they have sleeker AP's more along
the lines of say the 1130 series.  This should occur after the draft is
ratified.

 

Mike

 



From: Lee Weers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:42 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

 

For wireless we currently have an Aruba 2400, and a HP WESM xl module.
About a year ago I did a comparison (mostly on paper) of a campus wide
deployment of Aruba, Trapeze, Procurve, Xirrus, Cisco, and Siemens.  It
came down to Procurve for several reasons.  1.  It is very simple to
setup and maintain.  2.  It has supported 802.1x a lot easier than our
Aruba deployment  3.  It is the least expensive to maintain year over
year (Lifetime warranty).

 

The only reason why he is pushing Cisco is they are shipping N now, and
he is concerned there will be a politically backlash from the students
with the technology fee increase.

 

My opinion is the students won't care if it is a/b/g or n.  They just
want wireless.

 



From: Lee H Badman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:36 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

Hi Lee-

 

I would encourage an eyes-open, non-biased bake-off if you have no
wireless now. Regardless of what APs you settle on, scrutinize the
management component closely. You may end up with a whiz-bang WLAN, but
if you become a slave to the management tool, you'll likely be looking
for alternatives not too far down the road. The management component
(and the hidden costs that you'd do well to ferret out before purchasing
by grilling others who have gone before you), add a significant amount
to your TCO. 

 

For us, we're seeing what early adopters have to say on 802.11n.
Especially large schools with thousands of APs that also do 802.1x. You
probably realize that 802.11n can impact your PoE and data wiring
strategy, along with the number of APs, etc... 

 

 

Keep us posted as you proceed. Out of curiosity- did the push for Cisco
by your supervisor come after a comparison with other vendors?

 

Regards-

 

Lee

 

Lee H. Badman

Wireless/Network Engineer

Information Technology and Services

Syracuse University

315 443-3003



From: Lee Weers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:25 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

 

We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor
is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability.  We
would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment.  Our
wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it
being 10/100 switched.  I'd like to know what other schools are doing
with 802.11n.

Thank you, 
  
Lee Weers 
Assistant Director for Network Services 
Central College IT Services 
(641) 628-7675 

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and
subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion
list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

**
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RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread King, Michael
True, you are correct about the gig port.

 

However, it's something to be aware of.  I can think of a few locations
were I've designed networks, and they are at the design capacity.  (And
we didn't expect it to happen that fast.  We designed for about 16 users
per AP Max load)

 

From: Frank Bulk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 4:25 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

 

Michael:

 

I would argue that 802.11n APs don't require gigabit Ethernet ports,
though it would help with the occasional burst of traffic.  Schools who
can't afford an edge switch and wireless upgrade in one year could
easily get away with doing 802.11n draft gear this year, and edge
switching the next.  

 

In regards to power, almost all the vendors have some kind of solution
or workaround.  Some use a second Ethernet port others power down a
radio chain.  Cisco is using CDP to negotiate more power out of select
models of their switch - see this article for more details:

http://www.networkcomputing.com/immersion/802.11n/showArticle.jhtml?arti
cleID=201804302

 

Good point about the certification for GigE mid-span PoE.  I'm not sure
if the IEEE 802.3af standard ever addressed mid-span for GigE, but it is
addressed in 802.3at.

 

Regards,

 

Frank

 

From: King, Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:29 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

 

Great question..

 

Two points you need to know.

 

1252's require gigabit Ethernet ports.  (Any 802.11n is going to need
gigabit Ethernet ports.  The actual throughput is over 100Mbs)

 

You'll need extra power.  Not many (if any) 802.11n AP's with dual
radios can run on standard POE.  Cisco is supposed to be releasing a
firmware for their 3750's that will allow it to power the 1252's, but
otherwise you'll be regulated to power injectors, or third party
mid-span devices. (That are gig certified)

 

Mike

 

From: Lee Weers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:25 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

 

We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor
is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability.  We
would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment.  Our
wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it
being 10/100 switched.  I'd like to know what other schools are doing
with 802.11n.

Thank you, 
  
Lee Weers 
Assistant Director for Network Services 
Central College IT Services 
(641) 628-7675 

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/. 

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
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Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread Jorj Bauer
> Had they received Wi-Fi certification?  I think that could be a
> differentiating factor.

I remeber that there was talk of 802.11g being certified *after* the 
final release, but not during draft. Some 802.11g draft hardware was 
specified as compliant after the final spec was approved, though. Ah, 
just found the old press release that seems to confirm:

  http://www.wi-fi.org/news/pressrelease-022503-80211gcertification/en>

So in that regard, we may do better with 802.11n draft 2 hardware. But 
it doesn't address what happens when draft 3 hardware arrives, or a 
vendor drops support for a product/goes out of business between the 
release of 802.11n draft xx and 802.11n's finalization.

No thanks. It's called "Draft" for a reason.

-- Jorj

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jorj Bauer  |   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Director of Networking  | 3330 Walnut St.
School of Engineering and Applied Science   |Levine Building, Room 160
University of Pennsylvania  | Philadelphia, PA 19104
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

**
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pgpNkEST8AtK7.pgp
Description: PGP signature


RE: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread Frank Bulk
Michael:

 

I would argue that 802.11n APs don't require gigabit Ethernet ports, though
it would help with the occasional burst of traffic.  Schools who can't
afford an edge switch and wireless upgrade in one year could easily get away
with doing 802.11n draft gear this year, and edge switching the next.  

 

In regards to power, almost all the vendors have some kind of solution or
workaround.  Some use a second Ethernet port others power down a radio
chain.  Cisco is using CDP to negotiate more power out of select models of
their switch - see this article for more details:

http://www.networkcomputing.com/immersion/802.11n/showArticle.jhtml?articleI
D=201804302

 

Good point about the certification for GigE mid-span PoE.  I'm not sure if
the IEEE 802.3af standard ever addressed mid-span for GigE, but it is
addressed in 802.3at.

 

Regards,

 

Frank

 

From: King, Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:29 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

 

Great question..

 

Two points you need to know...

 

1252's require gigabit Ethernet ports.  (Any 802.11n is going to need
gigabit Ethernet ports.  The actual throughput is over 100Mbs)

 

You'll need extra power.  Not many (if any) 802.11n AP's with dual radios
can run on standard POE.  Cisco is supposed to be releasing a firmware for
their 3750's that will allow it to power the 1252's, but otherwise you'll be
regulated to power injectors, or third party mid-span devices. (That are gig
certified)

 

Mike

 

From: Lee Weers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:25 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

 

We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is
pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability.  We would
have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment.  Our wired
infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100
switched.  I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n.

Thank you, 
  
Lee Weers 
Assistant Director for Network Services 
Central College IT Services 
(641) 628-7675 

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/. 


**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group 
discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.


RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread Frank Bulk
Had they received Wi-Fi certification?  I think that could be a
differentiating factor.

Frank

-Original Message-
From: Jorj Bauer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:09 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

> > We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor
is
> > pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability.  We would
> > have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment.  Our wired
> > infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being
10/100
> > switched.  I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n.
> 
> I think you are right on. I think as long as your a/b/g network is working
> well, the students aren't going to care about 11n. In my mind this is
still
> a very immature technology.

Personally, I'd hate to put any draft technology on my production 
network.

We went through the same thing with 802.11g. Network researchers (here) 
that started using 802.11g draft hardware suffered innumerable 
interoperability headaches.

-- Jorj

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
-
Jorj Bauer  |   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Director of Networking  | 3330 Walnut St.
School of Engineering and Applied Science   |Levine Building, Room 160
University of Pennsylvania  | Philadelphia, PA 19104
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
-


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Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread Jorj Bauer
> > We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is
> > pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability.  We would
> > have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment.  Our wired
> > infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100
> > switched.  I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n.
> 
> I think you are right on. I think as long as your a/b/g network is working
> well, the students aren't going to care about 11n. In my mind this is still
> a very immature technology.

Personally, I'd hate to put any draft technology on my production 
network.

We went through the same thing with 802.11g. Network researchers (here) 
that started using 802.11g draft hardware suffered innumerable 
interoperability headaches.

-- Jorj

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jorj Bauer  |   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Director of Networking  | 3330 Walnut St.
School of Engineering and Applied Science   |Levine Building, Room 160
University of Pennsylvania  | Philadelphia, PA 19104
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-


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pgpYX2AJQbht1.pgp
Description: PGP signature


RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread Peter Morrissey
Lee,

I think you are right on. I think as long as your a/b/g network is working
well, the students aren't going to care about 11n. In my mind this is still
a very immature technology. I think it would be very hard to demonstrate any
noticeable benefit to a typical student using wireless. Sure, you are going
to see them coming in with 11n on laptops next fall, but my understanding is
that it will be backwards compatible with abg. I  wouldn't consider it at
this point unless I was starting from scratch, and even then I think it
would be a tough call. BTW, Meru claims to have 11n and I think I heard
Aruba has it or is about to release an 11n solution as well. We are
concentrating more on increasing our coverage for now, and watching and
waiting on 11n. We may do a small pilot this summer. 

Pete Morrissey

 

  _  

From: Lee Weers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:42 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

 

For wireless we currently have an Aruba 2400, and a HP WESM xl module.
About a year ago I did a comparison (mostly on paper) of a campus wide
deployment of Aruba, Trapeze, Procurve, Xirrus, Cisco, and Siemens.  It came
down to Procurve for several reasons.  1.  It is very simple to setup and
maintain.  2.  It has supported 802.1x a lot easier than our Aruba
deployment  3.  It is the least expensive to maintain year over year
(Lifetime warranty).

 

The only reason why he is pushing Cisco is they are shipping N now, and he
is concerned there will be a politically backlash from the students with the
technology fee increase.

 

My opinion is the students won't care if it is a/b/g or n.  They just want
wireless.

 

  _  

From: Lee H Badman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:36 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

Hi Lee-

 

I would encourage an eyes-open, non-biased bake-off if you have no wireless
now. Regardless of what APs you settle on, scrutinize the management
component closely. You may end up with a whiz-bang WLAN, but if you become a
slave to the management tool, you'll likely be looking for alternatives not
too far down the road. The management component (and the hidden costs that
you'd do well to ferret out before purchasing by grilling others who have
gone before you), add a significant amount to your TCO. 

 

For us, we're seeing what early adopters have to say on 802.11n. Especially
large schools with thousands of APs that also do 802.1x. You probably
realize that 802.11n can impact your PoE and data wiring strategy, along
with the number of APs, etc. 

 

 

Keep us posted as you proceed. Out of curiosity- did the push for Cisco by
your supervisor come after a comparison with other vendors?

 

Regards-

 

Lee

 

Lee H. Badman

Wireless/Network Engineer

Information Technology and Services

Syracuse University

315 443-3003

  _  

From: Lee Weers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:25 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

 

We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor is
pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability.  We would
have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment.  Our wired
infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it being 10/100
switched.  I'd like to know what other schools are doing with 802.11n.

Thank you, 
  
Lee Weers 
Assistant Director for Network Services 
Central College IT Services 
(641) 628-7675 

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription
information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found
at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
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RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread Hector J Rios
Lee, 

 

Your last sentence pretty much sums it up. Most people that use wireless
do so to check email and surf the net.  I don't know how everybody else
feels, but right now it is way too early to jump into the 802.11n wagon,
especially when you are considering such a large deployment. If and when
we decide to deploy N, it will be in specific areas and for specific
applications.

 

My two cents.

 

-Hector

 

From: Lee Weers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:42 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

 

For wireless we currently have an Aruba 2400, and a HP WESM xl module.
About a year ago I did a comparison (mostly on paper) of a campus wide
deployment of Aruba, Trapeze, Procurve, Xirrus, Cisco, and Siemens.  It
came down to Procurve for several reasons.  1.  It is very simple to
setup and maintain.  2.  It has supported 802.1x a lot easier than our
Aruba deployment  3.  It is the least expensive to maintain year over
year (Lifetime warranty).

 

The only reason why he is pushing Cisco is they are shipping N now, and
he is concerned there will be a politically backlash from the students
with the technology fee increase.

 

My opinion is the students won't care if it is a/b/g or n.  They just
want wireless.

 



From: Lee H Badman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:36 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

Hi Lee-

 

I would encourage an eyes-open, non-biased bake-off if you have no
wireless now. Regardless of what APs you settle on, scrutinize the
management component closely. You may end up with a whiz-bang WLAN, but
if you become a slave to the management tool, you'll likely be looking
for alternatives not too far down the road. The management component
(and the hidden costs that you'd do well to ferret out before purchasing
by grilling others who have gone before you), add a significant amount
to your TCO. 

 

For us, we're seeing what early adopters have to say on 802.11n.
Especially large schools with thousands of APs that also do 802.1x. You
probably realize that 802.11n can impact your PoE and data wiring
strategy, along with the number of APs, etc... 

 

 

Keep us posted as you proceed. Out of curiosity- did the push for Cisco
by your supervisor come after a comparison with other vendors?

 

Regards-

 

Lee

 

Lee H. Badman

Wireless/Network Engineer

Information Technology and Services

Syracuse University

315 443-3003



From: Lee Weers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:25 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

 

We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor
is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability.  We
would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment.  Our
wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it
being 10/100 switched.  I'd like to know what other schools are doing
with 802.11n.

Thank you, 
  
Lee Weers 
Assistant Director for Network Services 
Central College IT Services 
(641) 628-7675 

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and
subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion
list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/. 


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RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread Lee Weers
For wireless we currently have an Aruba 2400, and a HP WESM xl module.
About a year ago I did a comparison (mostly on paper) of a campus wide
deployment of Aruba, Trapeze, Procurve, Xirrus, Cisco, and Siemens.  It
came down to Procurve for several reasons.  1.  It is very simple to
setup and maintain.  2.  It has supported 802.1x a lot easier than our
Aruba deployment  3.  It is the least expensive to maintain year over
year (Lifetime warranty).
 
The only reason why he is pushing Cisco is they are shipping N now, and
he is concerned there will be a politically backlash from the students
with the technology fee increase.
 
My opinion is the students won't care if it is a/b/g or n.  They just
want wireless.



From: Lee H Badman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:36 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0


Hi Lee-
 
I would encourage an eyes-open, non-biased bake-off if you have no
wireless now. Regardless of what APs you settle on, scrutinize the
management component closely. You may end up with a whiz-bang WLAN, but
if you become a slave to the management tool, you'll likely be looking
for alternatives not too far down the road. The management component
(and the hidden costs that you'd do well to ferret out before purchasing
by grilling others who have gone before you), add a significant amount
to your TCO. 
 
For us, we're seeing what early adopters have to say on 802.11n.
Especially large schools with thousands of APs that also do 802.1x. You
probably realize that 802.11n can impact your PoE and data wiring
strategy, along with the number of APs, etc... 
 
 
Keep us posted as you proceed. Out of curiosity- did the push for Cisco
by your supervisor come after a comparison with other vendors?
 
Regards-
 
Lee
 
Lee H. Badman
Wireless/Network Engineer
Information Technology and Services
Syracuse University
315 443-3003


From: Lee Weers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:25 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0
 
We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor
is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability.  We
would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment.  Our
wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it
being 10/100 switched.  I'd like to know what other schools are doing
with 802.11n.
Thank you, 
  
Lee Weers 
Assistant Director for Network Services 
Central College IT Services 
(641) 628-7675 
** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and
subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion
list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group 
discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.


RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread Lee H Badman
Hi Lee-
 
I would encourage an eyes-open, non-biased bake-off if you have no
wireless now. Regardless of what APs you settle on, scrutinize the
management component closely. You may end up with a whiz-bang WLAN, but
if you become a slave to the management tool, you'll likely be looking
for alternatives not too far down the road. The management component
(and the hidden costs that you'd do well to ferret out before purchasing
by grilling others who have gone before you), add a significant amount
to your TCO. 
 
For us, we're seeing what early adopters have to say on 802.11n.
Especially large schools with thousands of APs that also do 802.1x. You
probably realize that 802.11n can impact your PoE and data wiring
strategy, along with the number of APs, etc... 
 
 
Keep us posted as you proceed. Out of curiosity- did the push for Cisco
by your supervisor come after a comparison with other vendors?
 
Regards-
 
Lee
 
Lee H. Badman
Wireless/Network Engineer
Information Technology and Services
Syracuse University
315 443-3003


From: Lee Weers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:25 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0
 
We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor
is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability.  We
would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment.  Our
wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it
being 10/100 switched.  I'd like to know what other schools are doing
with 802.11n.
Thank you, 
  
Lee Weers 
Assistant Director for Network Services 
Central College IT Services 
(641) 628-7675 
** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group 
discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.


RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

2007-11-13 Thread King, Michael
Great question..

 

Two points you need to know.

 

 

1252's require gigabit Ethernet ports.  (Any 802.11n is going to need
gigabit Ethernet ports.  The actual throughput is over 100Mbs)

You'll need extra power.  Not many (if any) 802.11n AP's with dual
radios can run on standard POE.  Cisco is supposed to be releasing a
firmware for their 3750's that will allow it to power the 1252's, but
otherwise you'll be regulated to power injectors, or third party
mid-span devices. (That are gig certified)

 

Mike

 

From: Lee Weers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:25 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11n Draft 2.0

 

We are looking at a campus wide wireless deployment, and my supervisor
is pushing for a complete Cisco 1252 with N draft 2.0 capability.  We
would have about a total of 250 to 300 AP's in full deployment.  Our
wired infrastructure is currently 100% Procurve with about 90% of it
being 10/100 switched.  I'd like to know what other schools are doing
with 802.11n.

Thank you, 
  
Lee Weers 
Assistant Director for Network Services 
Central College IT Services 
(641) 628-7675 

** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
http://www.educause.edu/groups/.


**
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group 
discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.