Re: [WiX-users] Are short names even useful anymore?
There are some deployment tools (Radia) that support only Short file name deployment of msis. On Oct 17, 2009, at 5:57 PM, "Jeremy Farrell" wrote: > Don't forget that the WI team are still living back before UNICODE > was invented. > > WI, the team that time forgot. > >> -Original Message- >> From: Christopher Painter [mailto:chr...@deploymentengineering.com] >> Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 6:27 PM >> To: d...@tramontana.co.hu; General discussion for Windows >> Installer XML toolset. >> Subject: Re: [WiX-users] Are short names even useful anymore? >> >> I think the point is all of this is pointless and yes, quite >> useless to the vast majority of the world. >> >> Case in point.. Rename SomeDotNetAssembly.dll to >> SomeDo~1.dll or some other hashed/transformed representation >> like WiX does and try referencing the classes in it after >> it's installed. The CLR will throw an exception in a heartbeat. >> >> I suppose someone out there still needs this functionality >> but it's got to be a .1% use case by now. >> >> If I'm wrong, I'd love to know of real world use cases other >> then someone might be trying to do an HTTP stream ( which no >> one does anyways ) or passing a public property that would >> break my application anyways. >> >> Christopher Painter, Author of Deployment Engineering Blog >> Have a hot tip, know a secret or read a really good thread >> that deserves attention? E-Mail Me >> >> >> --- On Sat, 10/17/09, Rob Mensching wrote: >> >>> From: Rob Mensching >>> Subject: Re: [WiX-users] Are short names even useful anymore? >>> To: d...@tramontana.co.hu, "General discussion for Windows >> Installer XML toolset." >>> Date: Saturday, October 17, 2009, 10:39 AM >>> That and if you try to use the >>> "install an MSI over HTTP" (which is such a >>> pain to deal with it isn't worth it) the Windows Installer >>> will use short >>> names as well. Oh, and the user can technically speaking >>> always pass in the >>> SHORTFILENAMES Property and force your MSI to use short >>> filenames. >>> I don't quite follow the question though. MSI requires >>> short filenames. WiX >>> v3 will auto-generate them in a stable and highly-unlikely >>> to collide sort >>> of way. Why does it matter? >>> >>> virtually, Rob Mensching - http://robmensching.com >>> >>> 2009/10/17 DEÃK JAHN, Gábor >>> >>>> On Tue, 13 Oct 2009 15:17:32 -0700, Blair wrote: >>>> >>>> Blair, >>>> >>>> the last time I heard this question mentioned from >>> some of the developers, >>>> maybe Rob, the answer always was that the only real >>> reason for short names >>>> was that some old Novel servers couldn't cope with >>> long names and removing >>>> this would make it impossible to make network >>> installations on those >>>> servers. I don't know if this is still an issue >>> today. >>>> >>>> Bye, >>>>Gábor >>>> >>>> >>> --- >>>> DEÃK JAHN, Gábor -- Budapest, Hungary >>>> E-mail: d...@tramontana.co.hu >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> -- >> >>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer >>> Conference in SF, CA >>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this >>> year. Jumpstart your >>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications >>> to market and stay >>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, >>> 2009. Register now! >>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference >>>> ___ >>>> WiX-users mailing list >>>> WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users >>>> >>>> >>> >> -- >> >>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference >>> in SF, CA >>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. >>&g
Re: [WiX-users] Are short names even useful anymore?
Don't forget that the WI team are still living back before UNICODE was invented. WI, the team that time forgot. > -Original Message- > From: Christopher Painter [mailto:chr...@deploymentengineering.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 6:27 PM > To: d...@tramontana.co.hu; General discussion for Windows > Installer XML toolset. > Subject: Re: [WiX-users] Are short names even useful anymore? > > I think the point is all of this is pointless and yes, quite > useless to the vast majority of the world. > > Case in point.. Rename SomeDotNetAssembly.dll to > SomeDo~1.dll or some other hashed/transformed representation > like WiX does and try referencing the classes in it after > it's installed. The CLR will throw an exception in a heartbeat. > > I suppose someone out there still needs this functionality > but it's got to be a .1% use case by now. > > If I'm wrong, I'd love to know of real world use cases other > then someone might be trying to do an HTTP stream ( which no > one does anyways ) or passing a public property that would > break my application anyways. > > Christopher Painter, Author of Deployment Engineering Blog > Have a hot tip, know a secret or read a really good thread > that deserves attention? E-Mail Me > > > --- On Sat, 10/17/09, Rob Mensching wrote: > > > From: Rob Mensching > > Subject: Re: [WiX-users] Are short names even useful anymore? > > To: d...@tramontana.co.hu, "General discussion for Windows > Installer XML toolset." > > Date: Saturday, October 17, 2009, 10:39 AM > > That and if you try to use the > > "install an MSI over HTTP" (which is such a > > pain to deal with it isn't worth it) the Windows Installer > > will use short > > names as well. Oh, and the user can technically speaking > > always pass in the > > SHORTFILENAMES Property and force your MSI to use short > > filenames. > > I don't quite follow the question though. MSI requires > > short filenames. WiX > > v3 will auto-generate them in a stable and highly-unlikely > > to collide sort > > of way. Why does it matter? > > > > virtually, Rob Mensching - http://robmensching.com > > > > 2009/10/17 DEÃK JAHN, Gábor > > > > > On Tue, 13 Oct 2009 15:17:32 -0700, Blair wrote: > > > > > > Blair, > > > > > > the last time I heard this question mentioned from > > some of the developers, > > > maybe Rob, the answer always was that the only real > > reason for short names > > > was that some old Novel servers couldn't cope with > > long names and removing > > > this would make it impossible to make network > > installations on those > > > servers. I don't know if this is still an issue > > today. > > > > > > Bye, > > >   Gábor > > > > > > > > --- > > > DEÃK JAHN, Gábor -- Budapest, Hungary > > > E-mail: d...@tramontana.co.hu > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer > > Conference in SF, CA > > > is the only developer event you need to attend this > > year. Jumpstart your > > > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications > > to market and stay > > > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, > > 2009. Register now! > > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference > > > ___ > > > WiX-users mailing list > > > WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference > > in SF, CA > > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. > > Jumpstart your > > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to > > market and stay > > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. > > Register now! > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference > > ___ > > WiX-users mailing list > > WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users > > > > > > > -- > -
Re: [WiX-users] Are short names even useful anymore?
I think the point is all of this is pointless and yes, quite useless to the vast majority of the world. Case in point.. Rename SomeDotNetAssembly.dll to SomeDo~1.dll or some other hashed/transformed representation like WiX does and try referencing the classes in it after it's installed. The CLR will throw an exception in a heartbeat. I suppose someone out there still needs this functionality but it's got to be a .1% use case by now. If I'm wrong, I'd love to know of real world use cases other then someone might be trying to do an HTTP stream ( which no one does anyways ) or passing a public property that would break my application anyways. Christopher Painter, Author of Deployment Engineering Blog Have a hot tip, know a secret or read a really good thread that deserves attention? E-Mail Me --- On Sat, 10/17/09, Rob Mensching wrote: > From: Rob Mensching > Subject: Re: [WiX-users] Are short names even useful anymore? > To: d...@tramontana.co.hu, "General discussion for Windows Installer XML > toolset." > Date: Saturday, October 17, 2009, 10:39 AM > That and if you try to use the > "install an MSI over HTTP" (which is such a > pain to deal with it isn't worth it) the Windows Installer > will use short > names as well. Oh, and the user can technically speaking > always pass in the > SHORTFILENAMES Property and force your MSI to use short > filenames. > I don't quite follow the question though. MSI requires > short filenames. WiX > v3 will auto-generate them in a stable and highly-unlikely > to collide sort > of way. Why does it matter? > > virtually, Rob Mensching - http://robmensching.com > > 2009/10/17 DEÃK JAHN, Gábor > > > On Tue, 13 Oct 2009 15:17:32 -0700, Blair wrote: > > > > Blair, > > > > the last time I heard this question mentioned from > some of the developers, > > maybe Rob, the answer always was that the only real > reason for short names > > was that some old Novel servers couldn't cope with > long names and removing > > this would make it impossible to make network > installations on those > > servers. I don't know if this is still an issue > today. > > > > Bye, > >   Gábor > > > > > --- > > DEÃK JAHN, Gábor -- Budapest, Hungary > > E-mail: d...@tramontana.co.hu > > > > > > > -- > > Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer > Conference in SF, CA > > is the only developer event you need to attend this > year. Jumpstart your > > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications > to market and stay > > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, > 2009. Register now! > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference > > ___ > > WiX-users mailing list > > WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users > > > > > -- > Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference > in SF, CA > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. > Jumpstart your > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to > market and stay > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. > Register now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference > ___ > WiX-users mailing list > WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users > -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users
Re: [WiX-users] Are short names even useful anymore?
That and if you try to use the "install an MSI over HTTP" (which is such a pain to deal with it isn't worth it) the Windows Installer will use short names as well. Oh, and the user can technically speaking always pass in the SHORTFILENAMES Property and force your MSI to use short filenames. I don't quite follow the question though. MSI requires short filenames. WiX v3 will auto-generate them in a stable and highly-unlikely to collide sort of way. Why does it matter? virtually, Rob Mensching - http://robmensching.com 2009/10/17 DEÃK JAHN, Gábor > On Tue, 13 Oct 2009 15:17:32 -0700, Blair wrote: > > Blair, > > the last time I heard this question mentioned from some of the developers, > maybe Rob, the answer always was that the only real reason for short names > was that some old Novel servers couldn't cope with long names and removing > this would make it impossible to make network installations on those > servers. I don't know if this is still an issue today. > > Bye, > Gábor > > --- > DEÃK JAHN, Gábor -- Budapest, Hungary > E-mail: d...@tramontana.co.hu > > > -- > Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference > ___ > WiX-users mailing list > WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users > > -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users
Re: [WiX-users] Are short names even useful anymore?
If you mark your package with the packa...@shortnames='yes' you will set the "short file names" bit in the so-called Word Count summary information stream. http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/aa372870.aspx. You can also force use of the 8.3 names by setting the SHORTFILENAMES property. Otherwise, SFNs are used as the fallback in the unlikely case that the directory being installed onto doesn't support LFNs. You could try placing an action right after CostFinalize that checks for each key in your directory table and checks the filesystem on the volume used by each directory to see if it supports LFNs. However, a quick look didn't turn up which APIs would deliver that info. NTFS can have LFNs turned off as well. However, I believe that .NET will not work in that case, so if you are deploying .NET 3.5 (I believe you mentioned) it is unlikely that you will find yourself in that state. -Original Message- From: Brant Gurganus [mailto:br...@gurganus.name] Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 12:00 PM To: General discussion for Windows Installer XML toolset. Subject: Re: [WiX-users] Are short names even useful anymore? There are still filesystems that Windows can use that are short name only. Brant Gurganus http://gurganus.name/brant On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 2:37 PM, Dave Kolb wrote: > Thanks Chad. In spite of calling it a shortcut, I know what a SFN is since > working on PCs from the very first version of DOS 1.0, but am wondering why > I might want to have anything meaningful for a short name nowadays. Since > these names would be for my program files I'd really rather not any "legacy" > program showed anything meaningful to the user though I can't even think of > what such a program would even be. Is there anything in XP forward in the OS > itself that is important in practice that would attempt to show a short name > to the user? I can't think of anything so am inclined to not specify any > short names that would clutter up my .wxs files. Thanks, Dave > > -Original Message- > From: Chad Petersen [mailto:chad.peter...@harlandfs.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 1:44 PM > To: General discussion for Windows Installer XML toolset. > Subject: Re: [WiX-users] Are shortcut names even useful anymore? > > An 8.3 filename (also called a short filename or SFN) is a filename > convention used by old versions of DOS and versions of Microsoft Windows > prior to Windows 95 and Windows NT 3.51. It is also used in modern > Microsoft operating systems as an alternate filename to the long > filename for compatibility with legacy programs. > > > -- > Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference > ___ > WiX-users mailing list > WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users > -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users
Re: [WiX-users] Are short names even useful anymore?
Interesting. I still think I will not specify short names so as to let them auto generate and see if I ever run into problems. Thanks, Dave -Original Message- From: Brant Gurganus [mailto:br...@gurganus.name] Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 4:23 PM To: General discussion for Windows Installer XML toolset. Subject: Re: [WiX-users] Are short names even useful anymore? Long file names can be turned off on NTFS so you have to worry about it there as well. See http://blogs.msdn.com/astebner/archive/2005/01/27/362049.aspx Brant Gurganus http://gurganus.name/brant -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users
Re: [WiX-users] Are short names even useful anymore?
Long file names can be turned off on NTFS so you have to worry about it there as well. See http://blogs.msdn.com/astebner/archive/2005/01/27/362049.aspx Brant Gurganus http://gurganus.name/brant On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Dave Kolb wrote: > Brant, Know anyway for wix to check that I am installing on NTFS and not a > FAT system? I have no desire whatsoever of perpetuating anything in regards > to FAT...Thanks, Dave > > -Original Message- > From: Brant Gurganus [mailto:br...@gurganus.name] > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 3:00 PM > To: General discussion for Windows Installer XML toolset. > Subject: Re: [WiX-users] Are short names even useful anymore? > > There are still filesystems that Windows can use that are short name only. > > Brant Gurganus > http://gurganus.name/brant > > > -- > Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference > ___ > WiX-users mailing list > WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users > -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users
Re: [WiX-users] Are short names even useful anymore?
Brant, Know anyway for wix to check that I am installing on NTFS and not a FAT system? I have no desire whatsoever of perpetuating anything in regards to FAT...Thanks, Dave -Original Message- From: Brant Gurganus [mailto:br...@gurganus.name] Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 3:00 PM To: General discussion for Windows Installer XML toolset. Subject: Re: [WiX-users] Are short names even useful anymore? There are still filesystems that Windows can use that are short name only. Brant Gurganus http://gurganus.name/brant -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users
Re: [WiX-users] Are short names even useful anymore?
There are still filesystems that Windows can use that are short name only. Brant Gurganus http://gurganus.name/brant On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 2:37 PM, Dave Kolb wrote: > Thanks Chad. In spite of calling it a shortcut, I know what a SFN is since > working on PCs from the very first version of DOS 1.0, but am wondering why > I might want to have anything meaningful for a short name nowadays. Since > these names would be for my program files I'd really rather not any "legacy" > program showed anything meaningful to the user though I can't even think of > what such a program would even be. Is there anything in XP forward in the OS > itself that is important in practice that would attempt to show a short name > to the user? I can't think of anything so am inclined to not specify any > short names that would clutter up my .wxs files. Thanks, Dave > > -Original Message- > From: Chad Petersen [mailto:chad.peter...@harlandfs.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 1:44 PM > To: General discussion for Windows Installer XML toolset. > Subject: Re: [WiX-users] Are shortcut names even useful anymore? > > An 8.3 filename (also called a short filename or SFN) is a filename > convention used by old versions of DOS and versions of Microsoft Windows > prior to Windows 95 and Windows NT 3.51. It is also used in modern > Microsoft operating systems as an alternate filename to the long > filename for compatibility with legacy programs. > > > -- > Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference > ___ > WiX-users mailing list > WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users > -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users
Re: [WiX-users] Are short names even useful anymore?
Thanks Chad. In spite of calling it a shortcut, I know what a SFN is since working on PCs from the very first version of DOS 1.0, but am wondering why I might want to have anything meaningful for a short name nowadays. Since these names would be for my program files I'd really rather not any "legacy" program showed anything meaningful to the user though I can't even think of what such a program would even be. Is there anything in XP forward in the OS itself that is important in practice that would attempt to show a short name to the user? I can't think of anything so am inclined to not specify any short names that would clutter up my .wxs files. Thanks, Dave -Original Message- From: Chad Petersen [mailto:chad.peter...@harlandfs.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 1:44 PM To: General discussion for Windows Installer XML toolset. Subject: Re: [WiX-users] Are shortcut names even useful anymore? An 8.3 filename (also called a short filename or SFN) is a filename convention used by old versions of DOS and versions of Microsoft Windows prior to Windows 95 and Windows NT 3.51. It is also used in modern Microsoft operating systems as an alternate filename to the long filename for compatibility with legacy programs. -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users
