Re: [WSG] small screen rendering tools (plus other useful things)
James: Nice heads-up. Thanks. A quick troll through the extensionroom at mozdev this lazy sunday afternoon showed up some interesting tools that may be of help when developing/designing/tweaking your next masterpiece: --- SSR (http://disruptive-innovations.com/products/index.html#SSRXPI) --- snip-snip -- IE view allows you to launch a page into IE from a Mozilla browser, from the context menu. http://extensionroom.mozdev.org/more-info/ieview Whats is the context menu in Firebird? -- snip-snip -- Jorgen Farum Jensen www.webdesign101.dk * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] small screen rendering tools (plus other useful things)
the context menu in Firebird is the mneu that appears when you click in an empty area of a webpage -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au IE view allows you to launch a page into IE from a Mozilla browser, from the context menu. http://extensionroom.mozdev.org/more-info/ieview Whats is the context menu in Firebird? -- snip-snip -- Jorgen Farum Jensen www.webdesign101.dk * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] loading links when loading a page.
On Monday, March 15, 2004, at 10:10 AM, Kim Buttery wrote: A number of my web pages insist that links I visited, when checking them remain in the 'visited' state in the future. I would like the links to revert to a none-visited state when a page loads. I believe there should be an 'on load' instruction but I have not been able to find the syntax in either my html references or the CSS references. Can someone assist with the correct syntax (? on load a:link ?) and tell me if it should be placed in the head content /head area. Thank you.. I'd really recommend against this, as it's changing the behaviour of the user's mail program -- generally a big no-no. For example, in Firefox 0.8's preferences, I can 'remember visited pages for the last N days'. It's a user preference, NOT a developer/site-owner preference. Of course there **MAY** be occasions where this is okay, I'd avoid it all costs if possible. Take the following example: 1. I visit a friends blog, and read the newest three posts... my browser remembers those last three posts as being visited, and offers a visual cue that this has happened. 2. I close the window, and leave the site. 3. I come back a few days later, and your script screws with the visited links, turning them all into fresh links. 4. Rather than glancing at each title/link and seeing that it is visited, I have to read the title/link, remember if I've read it, then decide what to do. If you personally want a different scenario for your browser, mess with your preferences, and set the history/visited pages preference to 0 or 1 days, and see how that goes, but please don't mess with my preferences :) --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] New CSS site
Michael, Peter Gifford's beautiful work makes me wonder if I should call myself a designer at all. But what he didn't say was what I have long maintained. The fact that everyone (more or less) can pick up a pencil does not mean that everyone can draw beautifully. In the same way, the fact that everyone on this list either can, or is learning to, make web pages using CSS does not make them graphic designers. I know this is an obvious point, but I would recommend that if you want to make beautiful sites you engage the services of a professional graphic designer to produce Photoshop images of what your site could look like. It will take some collaboration, but when your CSS makes the design come to life you will see how graphic design works, not simply to make things look beautiful but to add intelligence and simplicity (if simplicity can be added) to the conveying of information. All the best! -Hugh Todd Im sorry, Peter, but I hate your new site. I LOATHE it. Oh, not because you did a rotten job in my opinion. On the contrary, its so good it reminds me of my own shortcomings in the artistic/design department. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] small screen rendering tools (plus other useful things)
Thanks for posting that James. Further info: you can do this if you are using Opera 7. Just go View Small Screen. You'll get a simulation of how the page looks on a handheld PDA device. Regards PAUL ROSS SkyRocket Design Co \\Quoting James Ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED]: quote: Disruptive Innovations is happy to offer you this extension to the Mozilla Application Suite allowing to check if a web site renders well on a cellphone's screen. This addon installs a new menu entry Small Screen Rendering in the View menu. Selecting it toggles on/off the Small Screen Rendering mode. This does not work with pages using framesets. - This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list / web developers involvement in development of appropriate standards?
Hi, I am a firm believer in standards and mostly just keep an eye on the list (very erratically) to see what is going on and find out about resources that I might have missed out on otherwise. I actively support standards but am beginning to get annoyed at some of the latest standards coming out as they don't seem to meet the real life needs of the web development community (take XHTML 2.0 for instance). I don't want to boycott standards - that'd be dumb - but I would like to see web developers being able to provide more feedback regarding standards under development. The obvious consideration is to become a member of the W3C - but unfortunately membership is restricted to those individuals and companies who can afford to pay $57,000 per year in membership fees. That would be why there is only 400 member companies. I find most of the active supporters of standards tend to be smaller companies and individuals - especially those who are willing to share information with others. Does anyone else see anything wrong with this picture? I did write to the W3C via email but have not yet received a reply. Anyway, I guess my question is, is this list an appropriate place to discuss such issues and perhaps discuss ways that developers can have more of a say about what should be considered for standards? Just something that has been beginning to bug me more and more over the last few years... I follow standards, I take pains and efforts to use them, I tell other people to use them and share details of tools that will help make following standards easier... But do I get any say in what goes into those standards... Not really. Is it just me who feels this way? On a totally different topic (one that is definitely suitable to this list - well, I think so anyway): If you are not already using it, a useful tool/reference for people new to CSS is the devedge sidebar tabs (http://devedge.netscape.com/toolbox/sidebars/) and checky (http://checky.mozdev.org/) that are available for Mozilla/Netscape. (I use IE to work in because that is what a lot of our clients use, but I always have mozilla open for testing and also for quick access to the devedge sidebar - it very neatly bookmarks the W3C standards so you can find what you are after straight away). M. e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] A stylesheet which makes IE standards-compliant!
That IE7 hack looks interesting and I would like to have a play with it, but the download link doesn't seem to be functional... Has anyone else been able to get hold of it? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Phillips, Wendy Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 6:56 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] A stylesheet which makes IE standards-compliant! as a matter of interest ... http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/04/03/12/0454228.shtml Wendy Phillips Job Ready (Learning Development) Customer Sales Service ___ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ph: 61 3 9203 2363 Building 1, Ground Floor, 301 Burwood Hwy Burwood 3125 Our Intranet Site http://www.in.telstra.com.au/ism/retail_learning_cs/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] loading links when loading a page.
English is wonderful language to breed misunderstanding. I don't want to change the visit count, just the appearance when a page is loaded. If the appearance goes with the count, then you are correct, I do not want to change it. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Thank you for your recommendation. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Justin French Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 7:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] loading links when loading a page. On Monday, March 15, 2004, at 10:10 AM, Kim Buttery wrote: A number of my web pages insist that links I visited, when checking them remain in the 'visited' state in the future. I would like the links to revert to a none-visited state when a page loads. I believe there should be an 'on load' instruction but I have not been able to find the syntax in either my html references or the CSS references. Can someone assist with the correct syntax (? on load a:link ?) and tell me if it should be placed in the head content /head area. Thank you.. I'd really recommend against this, as it's changing the behaviour of the user's mail program -- generally a big no-no. For example, in Firefox 0.8's preferences, I can 'remember visited pages for the last N days'. It's a user preference, NOT a developer/site-owner preference. Of course there **MAY** be occasions where this is okay, I'd avoid it all costs if possible. Take the following example: 1. I visit a friends blog, and read the newest three posts... my browser remembers those last three posts as being visited, and offers a visual cue that this has happened. 2. I close the window, and leave the site. 3. I come back a few days later, and your script screws with the visited links, turning them all into fresh links. 4. Rather than glancing at each title/link and seeing that it is visited, I have to read the title/link, remember if I've read it, then decide what to do. If you personally want a different scenario for your browser, mess with your preferences, and set the history/visited pages preference to 0 or 1 days, and see how that goes, but please don't mess with my preferences :) --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] loading links when loading a page.
Thank you. I went to the Microsoft reference link you gave me . This appears to apply to versions of IE prior to version 5.x. What I really want to do is just prevent the web pages from continuing to show 'visited' color on repeated visits.. Maybe I will justuse link and hover states.. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darya TravisSent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 6:48 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [WSG] loading links when loading a page. You probably thought of this: META HTTP-EQUIV="Pragma" CONTENT="no-cache" TJ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kim ButterySent: March 14, 2004 7:11 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WSG] loading links when loading a page. A number of my web pages insist that links I visited, when checking them remain in the 'visited' state in the future. I would like the links to revert to a none-visited state when a page loads. I believe there should be an 'on load' instruction but I have not been able to find the syntax in either my html references or the CSS references. Can someone assist with the correctsyntax (? on load "a:link" ?)and tell me if it should be placed in the head content /head area. Thank you.. Kim Buttery 1096 Gayles Road Urbanna, VA 23175 804.758.0707 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [WSG] loading links when loading a page.
Yes, I think that is the best work around. Thanks. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Moser Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 6:51 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] loading links when loading a page. Kim Buttery blurted out: A number of my web pages insist that links I visited, when checking them remain in the 'visited' state in the future. I would like the links to revert to a none-visited state when a page loads. I believe there should be an 'on load' instruction but I have not been able to find the syntax in either my html references or the CSS references. Can someone assist with the correct syntax (? on load a:link ?) and tell me if it should be placed in the head content /head area. Thank you.. You could just style a:visited to look like a:link (or plain a) in your CSS. Then it wouldn't matter whether or not the browser thought it was visited. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] New CSS site
You are quite right, Hugh. I'm a professional at what I do, and I tell my clients that there's nothing stopping them getting out notepad or Frontpage and doing their own sites. There aren't any secret programming techniques in web sites. But they don't because they're good at running an off-road car parts business or being a professional athlete, and I'm good at developing web code. The exact same argument applies to graphic arts. I own Fireworks and Photoshop, and I can manipulate images well enough to eliminate a background or put it out of focus to make the foreground object stand out, I can colour correct and correct lighting, and I can make buttons, and I can crop pictures to improve composition. But all those things are mechanical. Anyone, given the instructions, can do that. What takes talent, vision and skills that I don't have is taking a white screen and envisioning something beautiful on it. A blank canvas so to speak and producing a wonderful piece of art, that also works as a web page. So you're right. I ought to be working with a graphic artist, and if I did my sites would look far better. But I work mostly with tiny businesses, for whom building even a brochureware site is something of a stretch. The site just wont pay for two people to do the job. And I'm too conscious of a mortgage debt and school fees and the need to eat to allow someone else to take away some of the money. So I have to do it all by myself whether I like it or not. And in the process I'm learning quite a lot about artistic matters, although I'll be the first to acknowledge I'm never going to make it as an artist. One day perhaps. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hugh Todd Sent: Monday, 15 March 2004 11:13 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] New CSS site Michael, Peter Gifford's beautiful work makes me wonder if I should call myself a designer at all. But what he didn't say was what I have long maintained. The fact that everyone (more or less) can pick up a pencil does not mean that everyone can draw beautifully. In the same way, the fact that everyone on this list either can, or is learning to, make web pages using CSS does not make them graphic designers. I know this is an obvious point, but I would recommend that if you want to make beautiful sites you engage the services of a professional graphic designer to produce Photoshop images of what your site could look like. It will take some collaboration, but when your CSS makes the design come to life you will see how graphic design works, not simply to make things look beautiful but to add intelligence and simplicity (if simplicity can be added) to the conveying of information. All the best! -Hugh Todd Im sorry, Peter, but I hate your new site. I LOATHE it. Oh, not because you did a rotten job in my opinion. On the contrary, its so good it reminds me of my own shortcomings in the artistic/design department. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] Testing multiple versions of IE
I've installed IE 5.01, 5.5 and 6 on my Windows2000 box using this method: http://www.quirksmode.org/browsers/multipleie.html However, does anyone know a way of testing that these are acting as they should for each version number? Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] New CSS site
As Peter mentioned in an earlier post, For inspiration, look at traditional design as well as other websites I think this is the best advice that could be offered to anyone who doesn't have a design background. With the wonders of css we should be able to reproduce any design we like. Magazines, Press Ads, TV ads, Billboards and even junk mail can be an inspiration in layout and colours. Another thing that is not always treated with the respect it deserves is the content. Headings, subheader, content all have a job to do, ie: attract attention, reinforce and sell. There are many books/sites out there on advertising that works and why it works. Zeldman covers it a bit in Taking your Talent to the Web I think. We should all take into account rules (for want of a better word) that have been established for a long long time in the print media and adapt them to the web... most sites are still selling something whether its a service or a product and the content should be considered as important as the layout... ...so now we need professional copywriters as well... oh well thats just the way the mop flops!!! Jackie Reid Mock Orange Web Site Development 1st Floor 92 Victoria Street MACKAY Q 4740 Ph: 07 4953 4035 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Michael Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 1:18 PM Subject: RE: [WSG] New CSS site You are quite right, Hugh. I'm a professional at what I do, and I tell my clients that there's nothing stopping them getting out notepad or Frontpage and doing their own sites. There aren't any secret programming techniques in web sites. But they don't because they're good at running an off-road car parts business or being a professional athlete, and I'm good at developing web code. The exact same argument applies to graphic arts. I own Fireworks and Photoshop, and I can manipulate images well enough to eliminate a background or put it out of focus to make the foreground object stand out, I can colour correct and correct lighting, and I can make buttons, and I can crop pictures to improve composition. But all those things are mechanical. Anyone, given the instructions, can do that. What takes talent, vision and skills that I don't have is taking a white screen and envisioning something beautiful on it. A blank canvas so to speak and producing a wonderful piece of art, that also works as a web page. So you're right. I ought to be working with a graphic artist, and if I did my sites would look far better. But I work mostly with tiny businesses, for whom building even a brochureware site is something of a stretch. The site just wont pay for two people to do the job. And I'm too conscious of a mortgage debt and school fees and the need to eat to allow someone else to take away some of the money. So I have to do it all by myself whether I like it or not. And in the process I'm learning quite a lot about artistic matters, although I'll be the first to acknowledge I'm never going to make it as an artist. One day perhaps. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hugh Todd Sent: Monday, 15 March 2004 11:13 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] New CSS site Michael, Peter Gifford's beautiful work makes me wonder if I should call myself a designer at all. But what he didn't say was what I have long maintained. The fact that everyone (more or less) can pick up a pencil does not mean that everyone can draw beautifully. In the same way, the fact that everyone on this list either can, or is learning to, make web pages using CSS does not make them graphic designers. I know this is an obvious point, but I would recommend that if you want to make beautiful sites you engage the services of a professional graphic designer to produce Photoshop images of what your site could look like. It will take some collaboration, but when your CSS makes the design come to life you will see how graphic design works, not simply to make things look beautiful but to add intelligence and simplicity (if simplicity can be added) to the conveying of information. All the best! -Hugh Todd I'm sorry, Peter, but I hate your new site. I LOATHE it. Oh, not because you did a rotten job in my opinion. On the contrary, it's so good it reminds me of my own shortcomings in the artistic/design department. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] Netscape versions
What's a good version of Netscape Navigator to check in? v 7.1 or v7? is there a big difference? Is it worth checking in older versions? What's the Netscape skinny basically? Thanks! Peter (obviously setting up a PC testing machine ...) * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Netscape versions
That is a loaded question... Depends on what level of browser you intend to support. I'd install 7, 6 and 4.x, just so you can see how it operates, but that is just me... All browsers are available here: http://browsers.evolt.org/ Russ What's a good version of Netscape Navigator to check in? v 7.1 or v7? is there a big difference? Is it worth checking in older versions? What's the Netscape skinny basically? Thanks! Peter (obviously setting up a PC testing machine ...) * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG]
D. Keith Robinson has started an interesting discussion, called 'Why Not Web Standards?', at Asterisk. He's asking why people aren't using web standards, and the reasons for it: Im very curious as to why people have shied away from Web standards. Im very interested in hearing from people who either dont support Web standards at all or are still struggling with it. http://www.7nights.com/asterisk/archives/why_not_web_standards.php Regards, David McDonald Regards, David McDonald Web Designer http://www.davidmcdonald.org * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Netscape versions
Hello Peter, What's a good version of Netscape Navigator to check in? v 7.1 or v7? it's usefull to install v6.1 or v7.0 (around 2% of users), because you can check a bug with conform coded forms (labels). (AFAIK: Later Versions work like Mozi.) Greetings Stefan * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Netscape versions
Hi all Netscape 4.7 is the tricky one. You need to do a balancing act between 4.7 and 7.x compliance. However the latest google stats clearly puts ie 6.x ahead of the rest. Mozilla might catch up, though the current share is a below 1% Cheers Dippy - Original Message - From: Universal Head To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Netscape versions This is interesting - but lots of people still use Navigator right?I guess I was asking the difference between build numbers too, because the Netscape site has versions 7.1, 7.0, 6.2, 6.1, 4.7, 4.8 4.6, 4.5, 4.0, 3.0 and 2.0. Obviously I don't want have to check in them all ...On 15/03/2004, at 5:14 PM, James Ellis wrote: Netscape 7 is built off stable Mozilla 1.x code (1.01 I think) and they both use Gecko (the rendering engine). It's basically Mozilla without the AOL crap mixed in.Both Firefox and Camino betas are based off this engine as well (Firefox is the browser part of Mozilla 1.6a)This means that if you test in Mozilla it'll emulate NS7. Netscape 6 is based off an 0.9 release of Mozilla - it has some issues and has a smaller footprint than v4 :D.As Netscape no longer exists as a company you may be better off using the Mozilla base (mozilla.org) to test.Universal HeadDesign That Works.7/43 Bridge Rd StanmoreNSW 2048 AustraliaT (+612) 9517 1466F (+612) 9565 4747E [EMAIL PROTECTED]W www.universalhead.com
