date:20040519

Yeah - they have been working on this new version of about a year. The
main aim was to address the concerns that you mentioned. I think they
sent it live about a month ago.

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2003Aug/0105.html

Great minds think a like?


Cheers

Mark
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Re: [WSG] should I track down this problem?

James,
For OSX users they have Safari so an upgrade path is there. For OS 8 
and 9 no upgrade path, but Mozilla 1.2.1 and Netscape 7.02 are both 
available as an alternative to promote.
Not so in this case, because Peter's page displays fine in IE 5.1 for 
the Mac. At least, it does in my IE 5.1 running in Classic on my OS X 
system. (Sorry, inside knowledge on this one!)

So it looks as though the problem is with IE 5.0 Mac.
-Hugh Todd
I pursued the bug because of the upgrade path issue. If their was a 
modern compliant browser for OS8 and 9 I wouldn't have bothered with 
the hacks and just sent a link to Safari back to the user.
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Re: [WSG] should I track down this problem?

2004-05-19 Thread Philippe Wittenbergh

On May 20, 2004, at 2:32 pm, Universal Head wrote:
It's probably something to do with that as one of the two problems is 
a standard horizontal list nav stuffing up. It does make the 
navigation virtually unusable I must admit.

But what can you do? My point to posting was, how many specific 
version numbers can one check in anyway? Having it work well in all 
those browsers and then having some obscure bug in an obscure browser 
make it go pear-shaped - well, it would be impossible to check it in 
every version number of every browser that ever lived. If only they 
had expiry dates!

I mean, how many people using IE5 on Mac OS9? (apart from my damn 
friend that is!) ;)
If the user is still on OS 9, chances are that they use IE - not much 
choice in browsers there (Opera 6 or older Mozilla, both run poorly).

On top of my head, based on your description:
position relative on that navigation ul (IE 5/OS 9 is more sensitive to 
that).
un-cleared floats
float lacking a width declaration.

Send a url for more accurate diagnosis.
I agree, it is sometimes difficult to check older browsers - I'm now 
lacking a convenient way to check IE 5 Win, since a neighbour had the 
stupid idea of buying a new computer recently.

Philippe
---/---
Philippe Wittenbergh
now live : 
code | design | web projects : 
IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : 
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[WSG] jakob nielsen redesign

2004-05-19 Thread Hill, Tim




Hi, 2 links about 
doing redesigns for Jakob Nielsen
 
Design Eye for the 
Usability Guy - DesignByFire
http://www.designbyfire.com/94.html
 
reUseIt - Built For 
The Future
http://www.builtforthefuture.com/reuseit/
 
These 
links talk about designing with web standards, and people's approaches to 
this.
Interesting to note, 
is how D.Keith of Asterisk fame (first link) disects Nielsen's own code and 
builds a tighter implementation.

Tim 
HillComputer 
AssociatesGraphic Artisttel: +612 9937 
0792fax: +612 9937 0546[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [WSG] Vertical Height Alignment Issues

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Thanks Peller for the link.
 

You're welcome.
I did had a look. but my problem is a bit different.
From the sounds of it, not as much as you think.
I am not using flat floated menus.
Shouldn't matter.
If it is flat than i can put a similar bg color or graphics to level the bottom alignment along with 
the footer. My problem is a bit different. The content & the sidebar or both separate 
"rounded cornor" containters.
p.i.e.'s code is much easier to read than Macromedia's. I took a quick 
look as MM's source and the only thing I saw was an (almost)emply "clear 
: both" div. While I haven't yet spent the time to understand p.i.e.'s 
code, their method should work for what you want. The columns all have 
seperate backgrounds, which is what's needed for ALA's method to work.

Mordechai
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Re: [WSG] should I track down this problem?

2004-05-19 Thread James Ellis

Peter
See my thread the other day I tried this and it works fine.
#box
{
float : none <- style for every browser
/* hack for IE5 mac \*/
float  : left <- for every browser bar IE5 mac (allows hiding styles 
from IE5 Mac)
/* end hack */
}

So I guess you could do that around your whole stylesheet and hide it 
from IE5 Mac altogether.

For OSX users they have Safari so an upgrade path is there. For OS 8 and 
9 no upgrade path, but Mozilla 1.2.1 and Netscape 7.02 are both 
available as an alternative to promote.

I pursued the bug because of the upgrade path issue. If their was a 
modern compliant browser for OS8 and 9 I wouldn't have bothered with the 
hacks and just sent a link to Safari back to the user.

Cheers
James
Universal Head wrote:
Curious how others would approach this?
I've just finished a simple site that is perfect in
WIN - NN 7, IE 5.01, IE 5.5, IE 6
MAC - Safari 1.2.1, Mozilla 1.4, IE 5.2
And a friend looks it in on Mac IE 5 and finds a big problem.
My question is, do you draw the line or not? Do I spend more time time 
trying to track down this one dumb version number browser's problem, 
or do I just say it's not worth it?

Whatddya think?
Peter
*Universal Head* 
Design That Works.

7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore
NSW 2048 Australia
T (+612) 9517 1466
F (+612) 9565 4747
E [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W www.universalhead.com
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RE: [WSG] should I track down this problem?

2004-05-19 Thread Miles Tillinger

In some cases that 'damn friend' could be an important stakeholder.  It also might be 
a matter of personal pride for the owner of the site if they have friends or users who 
will have a particular browser or OS.  If either of these situations arise then 
browser stats won't help you, even though barely anyone uses Mac IE5...  reality bites 
:(  

In most cases it pays to work out levels of browser support before you start designing 
and deal with any issues up front.  Convince the client that having to support a 
browser with small market share will limit the functionality. Get them to agree up 
front that the design doesn't have to be pixel perfect in said browser(s) but the 
content (the important stuff) will be available.  Then they can't complain at the 
end...  But hopefully they won't because you given them sufficient warning, but wait a 
second, i forgot, this is reality ;)

Mt.

-Original Message-
From: Universal Head [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 3:02 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] should I track down this problem?


It's probably something to do with that as one of the two problems is a standard 
horizontal list nav stuffing up. It does make the navigation virtually unusable I must 
admit. 


But what can you do? My point to posting was, how many specific version numbers can 
one check in anyway? Having it work well in all those browsers and then having some 
obscure bug in an obscure browser make it go pear-shaped - well, it would be 
impossible to check it in every version number of every browser that ever lived. If 
only they had expiry dates! 


I mean, how many people using IE5 on Mac OS9? (apart from my damn friend that is!) ;) 


Peter 



On 20/05/2004, at 3:20 PM, Kay Smoljak wrote: 


I thought I had a train wreck on a site in IE5Mac a while back - but it 
turns out there's a major bug with clearing floats, and as soon as I put in 
separate divs to clear the other elements, it started looking fine. So until 
you find the bug, don't despair! 


Universal Head  
Design That Works. 


7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore 
NSW 2048 Australia 
T (+612) 9517 1466 
F (+612) 9565 4747 
E [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
W www.universalhead.com 
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Re: [WSG] should I track down this problem?

2004-05-19 Thread Universal Head

It's probably something to do with that as one of the two problems is a standard horizontal list nav stuffing up. It does make the navigation virtually unusable I must admit.

But what can you do? My point to posting was, how many specific version numbers can one check in anyway? Having it work well in all those browsers and then having some obscure bug in an obscure browser make it go pear-shaped - well, it would be impossible to check it in every version number of every browser that ever lived. If only they had expiry dates!

I mean, how many people using IE5 on Mac OS9? (apart from my damn friend that is!) ;)

Peter


On 20/05/2004, at 3:20 PM, Kay Smoljak wrote:

I thought I had a train wreck on a site in IE5Mac a while back - but it
turns out there's a major bug with clearing floats, and as soon as I put in
separate divs to clear the other elements, it started looking fine. So until
you find the bug, don't despair!


Universal Head 
Design That Works.

7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore
NSW 2048 Australia
T	(+612) 9517 1466
F	(+612) 9565 4747
E	[EMAIL PROTECTED]
W	www.universalhead.com

Re: [WSG] should I track down this problem?

2004-05-19 Thread Justin French

On 20/05/2004, at 2:56 PM, Universal Head wrote:
Curious how others would approach this?
I've just finished a simple site that is perfect in
WIN - NN 7, IE 5.01, IE 5.5, IE 6
MAC - Safari 1.2.1, Mozilla 1.4, IE 5.2
And a friend looks it in on Mac IE 5 and finds a big problem.
IE 5 and 5.1 are pretty buggy compared to 5.2+.
My question is, do you draw the line or not? Do I spend more time time 
trying to track down this one dumb version number browser's problem, 
or do I just say it's not worth it?
If the site is currently unusable with older version of IE 5 Mac, then 
you have to do SOMETHING.

My advice would be to hide the stylesheet completely from IE < 5.2 via 
server-side scripting if at all possible, or perhaps hide it from all 
IE browsers via a MacIE hiding hack if server-side isn't feasible.

The ROI (return on investment) is virtually nil for you to track down 
and attempt to solve these bugs in a browser that is very outdated, 
discontinued, and a very small % of users (my guess is 0.1–0.5% -- 
unless you're targeting a Mac-oriented audience with older OS 9 
machines!).

Do what you can, but don't loose sleep over it -- just make sure the 
content is accessible primarily.

---
Justin French
http://indent.com.au
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Re: [WSG] should I track down this problem?

2004-05-19 Thread Neerav

IMHO
Dont bother, Mac IE is a dead duck so designing specifically for its 
flaws is not worth your time

--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Web Development & IT consultancy
Rick Faaberg wrote:
On 5/19/04 9:56 PM "Universal Head" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent this out:

I've just finished a simple site that is perfect in
WIN - NN 7, IE 5.01, IE 5.5, IE 6
MAC - Safari 1.2.1, Mozilla 1.4, IE 5.2
And a friend looks it in on Mac IE 5 and finds a big problem.
My question is, do you draw the line or not? Do I spend more time time trying
to track down this one dumb version number browser's problem, or do I just say
it's not worth it?

For me it would depend on what the problem is and whether there's a known
fix or workaround, keeping to standards of course! :-)
Perhaps a tweak of the design could bypass the problem (whatever it is)
entirely?
Rick
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Re: [WSG] should I track down this problem?

2004-05-19 Thread Universal Head

That's the thing. The code is clean, it works great on ALL those browsers, but some strange quirk of Mac OS9 IE5 only stuffs things up. The only way I can see to solve the problem is trial and error, and considering I don't have IE5 on my machine, it's a difficult and time-consuming way to track down a problem.

If anyone does have IE5 OS9 and feels like having a go, drop me a line! :)

P


On 20/05/2004, at 3:08 PM, Rick Faaberg wrote:

On 5/19/04 9:56 PM "Universal Head" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent this out:

I've just finished a simple site that is perfect in
WIN - NN 7, IE 5.01, IE 5.5, IE 6
MAC - Safari 1.2.1, Mozilla 1.4, IE 5.2

And a friend looks it in on Mac IE 5 and finds a big problem.

My question is, do you draw the line or not? Do I spend more time time trying
to track down this one dumb version number browser's problem, or do I just say
it's not worth it?

For me it would depend on what the problem is and whether there's a known
fix or workaround, keeping to standards of course! :-)

Perhaps a tweak of the design could bypass the problem (whatever it is)
entirely?

Rick

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Universal Head 
Design That Works.

7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore
NSW 2048 Australia
T	(+612) 9517 1466
F	(+612) 9565 4747
E	[EMAIL PROTECTED]
W	www.universalhead.com

RE: [WSG] should I track down this problem?

2004-05-19 Thread Kay Smoljak

Hi Peter,

> I've just finished a simple site that is perfect in WIN - NN 
> 7, IE 5.01, IE 5.5, IE 6 MAC - Safari 1.2.1, Mozilla 1.4, IE 5.2
> And a friend looks it in on Mac IE 5 and finds a big problem.
> 
> My question is, do you draw the line or not? Do I spend more 
> time time trying to track down this one dumb version number 
> browser's problem, or do I just say it's not worth it?

I thought I had a train wreck on a site in IE5Mac a while back - but it
turns out there's a major bug with clearing floats, and as soon as I put in
separate divs to clear the other elements, it started looking fine. So until
you find the bug, don't despair!

K.

--
Kay Smoljak
Senior Developer/QC Leader/Search Optimisation
PerthWeb Pty Ltd - http://www.perthweb.com.au/
Ph: 08 9226 1366 - Fax: 08 9226 1375 


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RE: [WSG] should I track down this problem?

2004-05-19 Thread Miles Tillinger




how 
big is the problem?  Does it make content unreadable or navigation 
unusable?  Is offering a slightly less visually pleasing site to Mac 
IE5 an option?  Everyone draws the line somewhere 
different...
 
Mt.  


  -Original Message-From: Universal Head 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 2:27 
  PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WSG] should I 
  track down this problem?
  Curious how others would approach this? 
  I've just finished a simple site that is perfect in 
  WIN - NN 7, IE 5.01, IE 5.5, IE 6 
  MAC - Safari 1.2.1, Mozilla 1.4, IE 5.2 
  And a friend looks it in on Mac IE 5 and finds a big problem. 
  My question is, do you draw the line or not? Do I spend more time time 
  trying to track down this one dumb version number browser's problem, or do I 
  just say it's not worth it? 
  Whatddya think? 
  Peter 
  
  Universal 
  Head  
  Design That Works. 
  7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore 
  NSW 2048 Australia 
  T (+612) 9517 1466 
  F (+612) 9565 4747 
  E [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  W www.universalhead.com

Re: [WSG] should I track down this problem?

2004-05-19 Thread Rick Faaberg

On 5/19/04 9:56 PM "Universal Head" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent this out:

> I've just finished a simple site that is perfect in
> WIN - NN 7, IE 5.01, IE 5.5, IE 6
> MAC - Safari 1.2.1, Mozilla 1.4, IE 5.2
> 
> And a friend looks it in on Mac IE 5 and finds a big problem.
> 
> My question is, do you draw the line or not? Do I spend more time time trying
> to track down this one dumb version number browser's problem, or do I just say
> it's not worth it?

For me it would depend on what the problem is and whether there's a known
fix or workaround, keeping to standards of course! :-)

Perhaps a tweak of the design could bypass the problem (whatever it is)
entirely?

Rick

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[WSG] should I track down this problem?

2004-05-19 Thread Universal Head

Curious how others would approach this?

I've just finished a simple site that is perfect in 
WIN - NN 7, IE 5.01, IE 5.5, IE 6
MAC - Safari 1.2.1, Mozilla 1.4, IE 5.2

And a friend looks it in on Mac IE 5 and finds a big problem.

My question is, do you draw the line or not? Do I spend more time time trying to track down this one dumb version number browser's problem, or do I just say it's not worth it?

Whatddya think?

Peter

Universal Head 
Design That Works.

7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore
NSW 2048 Australia
T	(+612) 9517 1466
F	(+612) 9565 4747
E	[EMAIL PROTECTED]
W	www.universalhead.com

Re: [WSG] Tables are bad because... Crazy idea for validation.

2004-05-19 Thread Chris Blown

At some stage, but that does look different to what I recall.
Certainly a step in the right direction.

On Thu, 2004-05-20 at 14:22, Mark Stanton wrote:
> Hi Chris
> 
> Have you tried turning on verbose output? This can be done by going to
> the extended interface at http://validator.w3.org/detailed.html or by
> changing verbose=0 to verbose=1 in the URL.
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Mark
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> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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> 
> 
> 

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Re: [WSG] Tables are bad because... Crazy idea for validation.

Hi Chris

Have you tried turning on verbose output? This can be done by going to
the extended interface at http://validator.w3.org/detailed.html or by
changing verbose=0 to verbose=1 in the URL.


Cheers

Mark
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Re: [WSG] Vertical Height Alignment Issues

2004-05-19 Thread rlnarain

Thanks Peller for the link.

I did had a look. but my problem is a bit different. I am not using flat floated 
menus. If it is flat than i can put a similar bg color or graphics to level the bottom 
alignment along with the footer. My problem is a bit different. The content & the 
sidebar or both separate "rounded cornor" containters. I hope you have seen 
Macromedia's product page. or chk this link  http://www.macromedia.com/software/flex/ 
and look for the right side link bar moves all the way down exactly to meet the 
content's bottom page.  I want replicate something similar too. How now i can align 
the bottom edge for my content & the right side bar.

I have just gone thru the source code of that page, but couldn't figure out how it is 
being aligned.

any ideas..

Narain

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Re: [WSG] IE hiding text

2004-05-19 Thread Gary Greer

accusation of plagiarism dealt with off list. Feel free to contact me if 
you want more details.

gg

Ben Webster wrote:
Hey there Gary,

there's just a small problem with the way your structring your 
background image for the left hand column. For help go here:

Faux columns - by Dan Cederhom
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/fauxcolumns/

btw - your images and colours look very familiar. A lot like a site I 
posted to the group for feedback a while back:

http://www.conversantstudios.com.au/apa/index_01.html

If you're going to use the same guff - at least change the name of the 
images to protect the innocent:

http://metropolis.muprivate.edu.au/fileadmin/metTempl/foot_terms_of_use.gif
http://www.conversantstudios.com.au/apa/i/foot_terms_of_use.gif

Benvolio

--+
Ben Webster
Conversant Studios
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
www.conversantstudios.com.au 

- Original Message -
From: "Gary Greer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 12:43 PM
Subject: [WSG] IE hiding text

 > I'm working on http://metropolis.muprivate.edu.au/index.php?id=456 -
 > it's going to be our intranet.
 >
 > Looking at it in Firefox, it looks fine, but in IE the menu on the left
 > appears but is then overwritten by the background image on the container
 > div.
 >
 > Does any one have any suggestions?
 >
 > gary
 >

smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

Re: [WSG] IE hiding text

2004-05-19 Thread Gary Greer

That would probaby be because I've used a fixed height to get the blue 
box high enough. Is there a way to make it expand to the same height as 
the text?

gg
Rick Faaberg wrote:
On 5/19/04 7:43 PM "Gary Greer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent this out:

I'm working on http://metropolis.muprivate.edu.au/index.php?id=456 -
it's going to be our intranet.
Looking at it in Firefox, it looks fine, but in IE the menu on the left
appears but is then overwritten by the background image on the container
div.

No suggestion, but on Mac IE 5.2.x the bottom line of text in the wide blue
box is not displayed i.e. the blue box isn't long enough vertically to
display the text.
Rick
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smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

RE: [WSG] Tables are bad because... Crazy idea for validation.

2004-05-19 Thread Chris Blown

Good point Jamie. 

Just a way out thought.. 

Imagine if the w3c validator went that extra mile and perhaps, given the
recommendations offered in the standard, provided some extra feedback on
problem areas of a document.

eg.

Warning : Line 100 to 150 : Document contains heavy element nesting

While this content is valid, there appears a high level of 
nesting. It is recommended you check this section for alternative
markup.

Though probably pie in the sky and well outside what the w3c is about,
it could be quite useful nonetheless.

Chris

> 
> Tables themselves are not the problem, their misuse is what is being
> ousted.
> 


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Re: [WSG] IE hiding text

2004-05-19 Thread Ben Webster




Hey there Gary,
 
there's just a small problem with the way your structring your 
background image for the left hand column. For help go here:Faux columns 
- by Dan Cederhomhttp://www.alistapart.com/articles/fauxcolumns/
 
btw - your images and colours look very familiar. A lot like a site I 
posted to the group for feedback a while back:
 
http://www.conversantstudios.com.au/apa/index_01.html
 
If you're going to use the same guff - at least change the name of the 
images to protect the innocent:
 
http://metropolis.muprivate.edu.au/fileadmin/metTempl/foot_terms_of_use.gif
http://www.conversantstudios.com.au/apa/i/foot_terms_of_use.gif
 
Benvolio
 
--+Ben 
WebsterConversant Studios[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.conversantstudios.com.au
 

- Original Message - 
From: "Gary Greer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 12:43 PM
Subject: [WSG] IE hiding text
> I'm working on http://metropolis.muprivate.edu.au/index.php?id=456 
- > it's going to be our intranet.> > Looking at it in 
Firefox, it looks fine, but in IE the menu on the left > appears but is 
then overwritten by the background image on the container > div.> 
> Does any one have any suggestions?> > gary>

Re: [WSG] IE hiding text

2004-05-19 Thread Rick Faaberg

On 5/19/04 7:43 PM "Gary Greer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent this out:

> I'm working on http://metropolis.muprivate.edu.au/index.php?id=456 -
> it's going to be our intranet.
> 
> Looking at it in Firefox, it looks fine, but in IE the menu on the left
> appears but is then overwritten by the background image on the container
> div.

No suggestion, but on Mac IE 5.2.x the bottom line of text in the wide blue
box is not displayed i.e. the blue box isn't long enough vertically to
display the text.

Rick

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[WSG] IE hiding text

2004-05-19 Thread Gary Greer

I'm working on http://metropolis.muprivate.edu.au/index.php?id=456 - 
it's going to be our intranet.

Looking at it in Firefox, it looks fine, but in IE the menu on the left 
appears but is then overwritten by the background image on the container 
div.

Does any one have any suggestions?
gary


smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

RE: [WSG] [OT] I want to keep the entered data in NN:form after history.go(-1)

2004-05-19 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]

I could ball sh** you all now, but I am in a good mood and will tell the
truth and may it set me free!.

Ive actually found the problem, now and it seems I have been using a hack
that does not function in NN for some time  I
was nesting the  and  tags in between the  and
 tags respectively so that the form did not add any carriage
returns or other formatting to the page, as it was on line in the code that
could not be rendered. This was causing the NN to just not fill in the
fields with the previously entered data.

Simple really write correct code and the browser will do the correct thing,
hack and expect anything to happen.

Lesson 1 of many I will learn today!

GC


Original Message:
-
From: Taco Fleur [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 11:50:07 +1000
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] [OT] I want to keep the entered data in NN:form after
history.go(-1)



Gary,

not knowing the fix to your problem, but I do know that its better to post
the form to itself, do error checking -> if ok go to next page (with cfmx
even easier with server-side redirects) -> if not ok display form with form
field populated again.



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 20 May 2004 11:33 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] [OT] I want to keep the entered data in NN:form after
history.go(-1)


[OT] I want to keep the entered data in NN:form after history.go(-1)


I am racking my brains over the simplest thing, its not web standards as in
CSS but its about browser compatibility.

Using Netscape if I fill in the form submit it and get to an error page
then click back or a link with history.back() or history.go(-1) the data I
entered in the form is not maintained. Google manage to maintain it. I seem
to remember a fix for this, but can't locate it now.

Anyone have any thoughts.

GC


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[WSG] can sql 7 be standard complient?

2004-05-19 Thread glenn

short questions
can sql 7 be standard complient?
is .net standard complient?
same question with long explaination.:
i am redesigning my website http://www.futureaus.net to be standard 
complient. After weeks of research and work, i published my first 
complient page
(all the catorgies page). I noticed substantial improvements in load 
time.

The search engine code clashes with the categories page so it is 
removed.
When i went to work on the pages that include the search engine, the 
xhtml validator bounces lots of errors. Too many to list here.
As i did not write or understand this code, i cannot adjust it.

I want to know if it is possible to write this code to be complient. 
Because it is microsoft, it probably cant.

also my coder is taking about rebuilding it with .net.
is .net standard complient?
sorry if OT
direct replys can go to
http://www.futureaus.net/us/contact.asp
thank you glenn
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RE: [WSG] [OT] I want to keep the entered data in NN:form after history.go(-1)

2004-05-19 Thread Taco Fleur


Gary,

not knowing the fix to your problem, but I do know that its better to post the form to 
itself, do error checking -> if ok go to next page (with cfmx even easier with 
server-side redirects) -> if not ok display form with form field populated again.



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 20 May 2004 11:33 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] [OT] I want to keep the entered data in NN:form after
history.go(-1)


[OT] I want to keep the entered data in NN:form after history.go(-1)

I am racking my brains over the simplest thing, its not web standards as in
CSS but its about browser compatibility.

Using Netscape if I fill in the form submit it and get to an error page
then click back or a link with history.back() or history.go(-1) the data I
entered in the form is not maintained. Google manage to maintain it. I seem
to remember a fix for this, but can't locate it now.

Anyone have any thoughts.

GC


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http://mail2web.com/ .


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[WSG] [OT] I want to keep the entered data in NN:form after history.go(-1)

2004-05-19 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[OT] I want to keep the entered data in NN:form after history.go(-1) 

I am racking my brains over the simplest thing, its not web standards as in
CSS but its about browser compatibility.

Using Netscape if I fill in the form submit it and get to an error page
then click back or a link with history.back() or history.go(-1) the data I
entered in the form is not maintained. Google manage to maintain it. I seem
to remember a fix for this, but cant locate it now.

Anyone have any thoughts.

GC


mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .


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RE: [WSG] height problem

> From: Mordechai Peller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> I recall reading somewhere that you can style the  element.
 
Interestingly enough, I was playing with that the other night...
http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/details.php?id=34
Works best in Firefox / Gecko based browsers at the moment...
 
Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk 
NŠÇ.²ÈžX¬µú+†ÛiÿünËZÖvÈ+¢êh®Òyèm¶ŸÿÁæìÝj·l‚º.¦Šàþf¢—ø.‰×Šw¬qùŸ¢»(™èbžÛ(žš,¶)àazX¬¶¶)à…éi

RE: [WSG] height problem

2004-05-19 Thread Jason Turnbull

> Kim Kruse wrote:
> I wrapped the logo and an URL in
> an  tag, placed it right under the body tag 
> and now FF is messing up.
> http://www.pagemakers.dk/divtest/test.htm .

Firefox has this displayed correctly
Floats need to be 'cleared' to move the following content underneath

What I would do (not necessarily the best way) is add the logo ID to the
h1 instead and add a clearing class after the h1


  
http://www.pagemakers.dk/divtest/billeder/logo.gif";
alt="mouseriders" width="200" height="80"/>
mouseriders: Apache, Java, Tomcat, PHP, Programmering
  



And change the style '#logo h1 a' to 'h1#logo a'

Regards
Jason


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Re: [WSG] height problem

Mark Stanton wrote:
Thanks Patrick 

Yes you are right about  being the top level container, but I
guess I was thinking about visible area - I never realised that you
could style the . Will try this out for sure.
 

I recall reading somewhere that you can style the  element. You 
of course will need to start by changing the display property to 
something other than "none".
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Re: [WSG] And now for something completely different :-)

2004-05-19 Thread John Allsopp

Hugh,
Anyone at Apple reading this? I'd imagine that if the web engine is 
already installed on Windows computers with iTunes (like all HP 
machines from June this year), all that would be needed would be a 
tiny download of a Safari GUI. (I imagine this because I'm not a 
programmer!)
you are largely right it would be a small download, with the engine 
already installed
this is probably getting a little OT :-/ but iTunes actually implements 
a lot of the Mac OS X UI on windows.

If they were being strategic about this my guess is that they would 
wait until there were say 50 million installed iTunes, then go for it 
with that large installed user base.

I am sure they have thought about it, just not sure what they do think 
about it.

I am pretty sure what MS might think about it :-)
john
John Allsopp
:: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/
software, courses, resources for a standards based web
:: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/
:: webessentials Sept 30 - October 1 2004 Sydney Australia
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Re: [WSG] title question

Ted Drake wrote:
I just came across something new for me.  I just started working with this company and 
they are using jsp with Tomcat and Jaquar as the server environment.  the pages are 
being built with Forte as the editor of choice.  I tried, in all my accessibility 
lovingness to add title tags to some images on a page today and it is telling me that 
the title tag is not allowed by the dtd and it won't parse the page.
here is our doctype
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd";>
+When is a title tag not allowed on an image?
 

You're right, it is allowed. I'm not sure, but I think I spotted the 
cause. If you look at the attibute list you'll notice there's no title:


However, the fists attribute listed is "%attrs;" which, as the comment 
indicates, refers to %coreattrs, %i18n, and %events. You need to go to 
"%coreattrs;" before you find the "title" attribute. So the problem is 
your software is lazy.

I hope this helped (but I get the feeling it didn't). I guess it's time 
for a nasty email to the publisher.
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Re: [WSG] CSS: box at the bottom

2004-05-19 Thread Matthias

Hi Mordechai!
http://www.positioniseverything.net/piefecta-rigid.html
Now that you mention it, I have noticed p.i.e. before. I guess I lost my 
bookmarks somewhere on the way.

Thank you for the reminder, tomorrow will be my studying day, I guess. :-)
I think that this (really fast, Ted and Mordechai!) informations will be 
enough help for now. Thank you so far. (trying to keep the noise down...)

Regards!
--
Matthias 
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Re: [WSG] height problem

Kim,
Jason's solution is an excellent one. I regretted my dogmatic statement 
(that you should not try) the moment I saw it. The background-image 
solution is better for a more complex background graphic for your 
column.

-Hugh
Great article, thank you. The problem the problem is already solved 
though.
Jason Turnbull was so helpful that he showed me and the solutions and 
it
works great.
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Re: [WSG] And now for something completely different :-)

John,
Anyone at Apple reading this? I'd imagine that if the web engine is 
already installed on Windows computers with iTunes (like all HP 
machines from June this year), all that would be needed would be a tiny 
download of a Safari GUI. (I imagine this because I'm not a 
programmer!)

-Hugh Todd
http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/2004/05/plus_ca_change.html
Hope people find it interesting, and feel free to spread the word :-)
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Re: [WSG] title question [Virus checkedAU]

2004-05-19 Thread Mark . Lynch

This email is to be read subject to the disclaimer below.

Hi Ted,

It would be useful to post the code you are working on - or the validator
results.

An initial guess at the problem would be that it is an error (missed
bracket/unclosed tag) before the img tag that is causing the problem.

The error messages from the validator can be a bit cryptic at times.

Regards,
Mark Lynch
Development Manager - Business Innovation Online
Ernst & Young - Australia
http://www.eyware.com/
http://www.eyonline.com/
Direct: +612 9248 4038
Fax: +612 9248 4073
Mobile: +61 421 050 695

"Ted Drake"

<[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

tection.com> cc:

Sent by: Subject: [WSG] title question
[Virus checkedAU]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

up.org

20/05/2004 08:53 AM

Please respond to

wsg

I just came across something new for me. I just started working with this
company and they are using jsp with Tomcat and Jaquar as the server
environment. the pages are being built with Forte as the editor of choice.
I tried, in all my accessibility lovingness to add title tags to some
images on a page today and it is telling me that the title tag is not
allowed by the dtd and it won't parse the page.
here is our doctype
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd";>

+When is a title tag not allowed on an image?

Here's an older version of the page. Please don't scream at the tables
layout. That's what my job is to do, make the next version of the site css
based.
http://www2.csatravelprotection.com/csa/do/csa/dispatcher?forward=asalescontact&phc=bqbrq2y9xk770

This is the page before I began adding the title tags.

Thanks

Ted
CSA Travel Protection
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RE: [WSG] Extra border/padding on a checkbox

2004-05-19 Thread Sameer Kekade

I wonder how yahoo was able to do it. Checkboxes in mail.yahoo.com do
not contain this extra padding/border

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Gary Menzel
Sent: Wednesday, 19 May 2004 10:17 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Extra border/padding on a checkbox

> I am trying to get rid of the extra border/ padding on a checkbox in 
> an IE browser.

A checkbox is a UI element and, as such, is under the control of the 
Browser (and/or operating system) to render.  It isn't under the control

of CSS/HTML.

A checkbox on a Mac will probably look different to one on Windows or 
Linux.

So - even if one browser lets you do it on one operating system that is 
not likely to be the case across the board.

Gary Menzel
Web Development Manager
IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited
Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000
PH: 07 333 44 828  FX:  07 3834 0828

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Re: [WSG] title question

> I tried, in all my accessibility lovingness to add title tags to some images 
> on a page today and it is telling me that the title tag is not allowed by the 
> dtd and it won't parse the page.

I'm assuming that you are talking about the title= attribute rather
than the  tag?

I tried the link you provided & got a session timeout error. Can you
double check it and provide one that works so I can look into the
problem for you?


Cheers

Mark
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Re: [WSG] CSS: box at the bottom

2004-05-19 Thread Matthias

Hi Ted!
Can you put the box inside the footer div and stick it to the right side?
Sorry, no. The credit-box should be above the footer. Or..

Would negative margins be the solutions? I once advocated them as a 
general cure, but I don't know exactly, how high the box will grow. Maybe 
it will be a fluid design, maybe not. It could work with a 
fixed-pixel-design, but a flexible one?

I could go with
#footer { margin-left:25% } and
#credit-box { width:25%; float:right; },
roughly speaking. For some reason I smell difficulties here... I'll go try 
tomorrow, it is rather late for me now.

However, interessting thought you led me to, Ted. Thanks for that.

Currently, I've put the validation (among others) links into the footer. 
To satisfy my eye, there are no icons or graphics, just 9px text, hardly 
big enough to give credit to anyone but screen-readers, Netscape 4 and 
Google.
--
Matthias 
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Re: [WSG] height problem

Thanks Patrick 

Yes you are right about  being the top level container, but I
guess I was thinking about visible area - I never realised that you
could style the . Will try this out for sure.


Cheers

Mark
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Re: [WSG] CSS: box at the bottom

Matthias wrote:
I want a type of three-col layout inside a wrapper. On the 
right-hand-side is a nav at the top, no big deal (a float or 
position:absolute does the trick). In the middle there is the content 
(no trick at all, I think). On the left-hand-side there shall be a 
support/credit box (validation icons, copyright, such things). THIS 
BOX shall be positioned at the bottom of the wrapper or the screen, 
whatever is cross-browser possible. Fixed positioning (to the screen) 
works fine in Opera, but IE (...you know it...). 
I'm not sure, but you might find what you're looking for at 
http://www.brainjar.com/css/positioning/ or 
http://www.positioniseverything.net/piefecta-rigid.html. The 
p.i.e.example may take some digging and studying to find what you want. 
(I still haven't figured out how it's working, but then again, I haven't 
tried very hard either. So much for the free lunch.)

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Re: [WSG] Help with Float

2004-05-19 Thread Mike Rainey

Floats are tricky. Try this:

1) Drop your "col2" div below the "col3" in the HTML markup.

2) Use these values for the "col#" in the stylesheet:

#col1 {
width: 253px;
height: auto;
border-right: 2px dotted #5D355E;
float: left;
margin: 0px;
padding: 0px;
clear: both;
}

#col2 {
width: 245px;
height: auto;
margin: 0 255px 0 255px;
padding: 0px;
}

#col3 {
width: 253px;
height: auto;
border-left: 2px dotted #5D355E;
float: right;
margin: 0px;
padding: 0px;
}

#col1 p, #col2 p, #col3 p {
font: 12px/16px Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
margin: 0px;
padding: 5px 10px;
}

It should work in IE and Mozilla/Firefox. I tested it and it works fine.

> 
> From: Sean Sullivan-Daley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2004/05/19 Wed PM 03:01:54 EDT
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [WSG] Help with Float
> 
> I am trying to float 3 columns next to each other.
> This appearas to be OK in IE6 but is broken in FireFox.
> The columns break out of the container in FireFox.
> 
> Here is a link to the Files.
> http://sean.ashtonweb.com/test/
> http://sean.ashtonweb.com/test/css/style2.css
> 
> What am I doing wrong?
> 
> -Sean
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> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> * 
> 
> 

Michael Rainey
Blog: http://raineym.dyndns.org/
Resume: http://mrainey.dyndns.org/

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[WSG] And now for something completely different :-)

2004-05-19 Thread John Allsopp

Ok,
something completely different but standards related.
It's a rethink on about half of the presentation  gave the the Sydney 
WSG meeting just before Christmas, and then at the first Melbourne WSG 
meeting a few weeks ago,

http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/2004/05/plus_ca_change.html
Hope people find it interesting, and feel free to spread the word :-)
john
John Allsopp
:: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/
software, courses, resources for a standards based web
:: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/
:: webessentials Sept 30 - October 1 2004 Sydney Australia
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Re: [WSG] height problem

2004-05-19 Thread Kim Kruse

Hi Hugh,

Great article, thank you. The problem the problem is already solved though.
Jason Turnbull was so helpful that he showed me and the solutions and it
works great. Now I've new problem though... I wrapped the logo and an URL in
an  tag, placed it right under the body tag and now FF is messing up.
You're welcome to take a look http://www.pagemakers.dk/divtest/test.htm .
Probably much easier than me trying to explain.

I'm too tired to look anymore... tomorrow.

Thanks
Kim

- Original Message - 
From: "Hugh Todd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 12:31 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] height problem


> Kim, you said,
>
> > Would it be possible to "force" the #navcontainer to stretch down to
> > the
> > #footer without the   ? If so how?
>
> No, there's no way to do this reliably. You should forget trying to do
> it. This is what Mark Stanton was getting at. Remove the background
> from your #navcontainer and put it in the background of the element
> behind it.
>
> Here's an article that explains what to do:
> http://alistapart.com/articles/fauxcolumns/
>
> All the best! -Hugh Todd
>
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>
>

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Re: [WSG] Help with Float

> What you're doing wrong is that you are assume IE6 is getting it right.
> Floats are suppose to extend past bottom of a container. You could try
> adding .

That statement is correct in this instance but might be slightly misleading.
It would be better to say that the heights of floated items are ignored by
the parent container, so there is a possibility they may poke out the bottom
of the parent container. This 'poking out' is dependant on what other
content is inside the container.

There is a more detailed explanation here:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/floatsample.htm

And here:
http://css.maxdesign.com.au/floatutorial/clear.htm

As Brain and Mordechai have said, you need to clear after the floats to
force the container around the floated items. They have suggested two
methods (clear:both inside a new empty div or in a br).

A third method is outlined in great detail here:
http://www.positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html

Russ



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Re: [WSG] W3C Validater doesn't recognize XHTML

Ryan Christie wrote:
I assume you're using PHP Mordechai? If so, copy&paste this -- based 
off Simon's script but altered for 1.1 DTD instead of 1.0Tran, with 
added sniffing::
Good guess. I had already made the mods to 1.1 and 4.01 Strict, as well 
as removed the "lang" error. Needing the sniffing just feels wrong, 
though. The validaters should be transmitting the correct header info, 
and not require to be circumvented.

I was wondering, why is Opera on the list? I just check 7.23 without 
browser sniffing and it worked (even though it doesn't appear on the 
list of mime types).

Thanks
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[WSG] title question

2004-05-19 Thread Ted Drake

I just came across something new for me.  I just started working with this company and 
they are using jsp with Tomcat and Jaquar as the server environment.  the pages are 
being built with Forte as the editor of choice.  I tried, in all my accessibility 
lovingness to add title tags to some images on a page today and it is telling me that 
the title tag is not allowed by the dtd and it won't parse the page.
here is our doctype
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd";>

+When is a title tag not allowed on an image?

Here's an older version of the page.  Please don't scream at the tables layout.  
That's what my job is to do, make the next version of the site css based. 
http://www2.csatravelprotection.com/csa/do/csa/dispatcher?forward=asalescontact&phc=bqbrq2y9xk770
This is the page before I began adding the title tags.


Thanks

Ted
CSA Travel Protection
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RE: [WSG] CSS: box at the bottom

2004-05-19 Thread Ted Drake

Can you put the box inside the footer div and stick it to the right side?
Ted

-Original Message-
From: Matthias [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 3:27 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] CSS: box at the bottom

Dear List!
(read: Hi List-members!)

I don't know if I introduced myself or not, as I'm reading for some time 
now.
I consider myself as a web-designer (or real-hard-wanna-be, that is), 
speciality CSS-based design. Based in Berlin, Germany, I am completing 
Highschool in the evening, working during daytime and coding XHTML/CSS at 
night. Sometimes I sleep. Now I need your help, dear list-writers.

Well, at first I thought I could solve this alone (without bothering you), 
but I just can't figure out how to achieve the following effect in a way, 
which every major browser can handle. (sorry, I don't have a picture of it)

I want a type of three-col layout inside a wrapper. On the right-hand-side 
is a nav at the top, no big deal (a float or position:absolute does the 
trick). In the middle there is the content (no trick at all, I think). On 
the left-hand-side there shall be a support/credit box (validation icons, 
copyright, such things). THIS BOX shall be positioned at the bottom of the 
wrapper or the screen, whatever is cross-browser possible. Fixed 
positioning (to the screen) works fine in Opera, but IE (...you know 
it...).

Is there a way to achieve it? I suppose there is. However, right now, my 
head's smoking Tex Avery-style out of the ears... I appreciate every hint.

Thanks in advance!
-- 
Matthias 
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Re: [WSG] Help with Float

> #col1 {
> width: 253px;
> height: auto;
> border-right: 2px dotted #5D355E;
> float: left;
> margin: 0px;
> padding: 0px;
> clear: both;
> }
> #col1 p, #col2 p, #col3 p {
> font: 12px/16px Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
> margin: 0px;
> padding: 5px 10px;
> }
> 

Mike, 
There are two small problems with this example. You are applying the
clear:both to the #col1 div. This works well in some instances but will fail
if #col2 or #col3 have much longer content. By fail I mean that the other
divs will poke out the bottom of their parent container.

You can see this here:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/jobs/css/sullivan-daley.htm

Another point (getting picky here, so apologies) is that you are show pixel
sizes for your font-sizes inside the containers. This is not recommended by
the WAI as it is not good for browsers that do not support scaling of
content in pixels (like IE). A better option is to use percents or EM's. A
really good article on this is here:
http://www.clagnut.com/blog/348/

Thanks
Russ

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Re: [WSG] Help with Float

Sean Sullivan-Daley wrote:
I am trying to float 3 columns next to each other.
This appearas to be OK in IE6 but is broken in FireFox.
The columns break out of the container in FireFox.
Here is a link to the Files.
http://sean.ashtonweb.com/test/
http://sean.ashtonweb.com/test/css/style2.css
What am I doing wrong?
 

What you're doing wrong is that you are assume IE6 is getting it right. 
Floats are suppose to extend past bottom of a container. You could try 
adding .
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Re: [WSG] Tables are bad because...

2004-05-19 Thread Rev. Bob 'Bob' Crispen

The voices are telling me that Patrick Griffiths said on 5/19/2004 
7:43 AM:

Who are all of these mad heavy-handed authoritarian web nuts that you're
talking about? ;)
/me fires up Xnews, looks to see that 
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.* are still there.

Yup.
/me scratches head.
:-p
--
Rev. Bob "Bob" Crispen
bob at crispen dot org
Ex Cathedra Weblog: http://blog.crispen.org/
Some people just don't know how to drive... I call these people
"Everybody But Me"
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Re: [WSG] height problem

Kim, you said,
Would it be possible to "force" the #navcontainer to stretch down to 
the
#footer without the   ? If so how?
No, there's no way to do this reliably. You should forget trying to do 
it. This is what Mark Stanton was getting at. Remove the background 
from your #navcontainer and put it in the background of the element 
behind it.

Here's an article that explains what to do: 
http://alistapart.com/articles/fauxcolumns/

All the best! -Hugh Todd
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Re: [WSG] Help with Float

2004-05-19 Thread Brian Foy

Hi Sean,
Looks like you have to clear those floats.
Try adding a div with clear: both; just below the last column.
Brian
Sean Sullivan-Daley wrote:
I am trying to float 3 columns next to each other.
This appearas to be OK in IE6 but is broken in FireFox.
The columns break out of the container in FireFox.
Here is a link to the Files.
http://sean.ashtonweb.com/test/
http://sean.ashtonweb.com/test/css/style2.css
What am I doing wrong?
-Sean
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[WSG] CSS: box at the bottom

2004-05-19 Thread Matthias

Dear List!
(read: Hi List-members!)
I don't know if I introduced myself or not, as I'm reading for some time 
now.
I consider myself as a web-designer (or real-hard-wanna-be, that is), 
speciality CSS-based design. Based in Berlin, Germany, I am completing 
Highschool in the evening, working during daytime and coding XHTML/CSS at 
night. Sometimes I sleep. Now I need your help, dear list-writers.

Well, at first I thought I could solve this alone (without bothering you), 
but I just can't figure out how to achieve the following effect in a way, 
which every major browser can handle. (sorry, I don't have a picture of it)

I want a type of three-col layout inside a wrapper. On the right-hand-side 
is a nav at the top, no big deal (a float or position:absolute does the 
trick). In the middle there is the content (no trick at all, I think). On 
the left-hand-side there shall be a support/credit box (validation icons, 
copyright, such things). THIS BOX shall be positioned at the bottom of the 
wrapper or the screen, whatever is cross-browser possible. Fixed 
positioning (to the screen) works fine in Opera, but IE (...you know 
it...).

Is there a way to achieve it? I suppose there is. However, right now, my 
head's smoking Tex Avery-style out of the ears... I appreciate every hint.

Thanks in advance!
--
Matthias 
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Re: [WSG] Help with Float

2004-05-19 Thread Manuel González Noriega

El mié, 19-05-2004 a las 21:43, Brian Foy escribió:
> Hi Sean,
> 
> Looks like you have to clear those floats.
> 
> Try adding a div with clear: both; just below the last column.
> 
> Brian
> 


Or this nicer method (i don't know where i first read about this, excuse
me if it was on this list :)

Clearing without structural markup
http://www.positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html

-- 
Manuel trabaja para Simplelógica, construcción web
(+34) 985 22 12 65 http://simplelogica.net 

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Re: [WSG] W3C Validater doesn't recognize XHTML

2004-05-19 Thread noa

The W3C validator does recognise "application/xhtml+xml".  The problem 
might be that you're not checking for the W3C's user agent string when 
you decide which browsers to send which MIME type to.  The string is 
"W3C_Validator".

Mordechai Peller wrote:
According to the W3C, my valid XHTML 1.1 page only validates to HTML 
4.01 Strict. I'm checking for "application/xhtml+xml" in order to 
serve up the correct header and DOCTYPE, so apparently, their 
validater doesn't recognize that mime type!

It would be nice to be able to use the logo, but if anyone checks, 
they'll be told the wrong thing. Where this becomes a big problem is 
if you promise a client valid XHTML 1.1 and the validater says 
otherwise...
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Re: [WSG] back to basics

2004-05-19 Thread Rev. Bob 'Bob' Crispen

The voices are telling me that [EMAIL PROTECTED] said on 5/18/2004 8:43 PM:
So, yes, ' is a better solution than the one I posted.
Except that [censored] MSIE doesn't display the apostrophe.  It gets 
it fine (as slapping  onto the top and renaming 
it to "foo.xml" demonstrates), but when it comes to displaying it, 
it can't be bothered.

I toad you I'd subtract from the sum of human knowledge.  Back to lurk.
--
Rev. Bob "Bob" Crispen
bob at crispen dot org
Ex Cathedra Weblog: http://blog.crispen.org/
Some people just don't know how to drive... I call these people
"Everybody But Me"
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Re: Re: [WSG] Help with Float

2004-05-19 Thread Mike Rainey

Sorry, thought I took that clear:both out of there. My mistake.

As for the font sizes, that is what was specified in the original stylesheet and I 
just copied from the "col1" styles down to the end.

> 
> From: russ - maxdesign <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2004/05/19 Wed PM 04:54:50 EDT
> To: Web Standards Group <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Help with Float
> 
> > #col1 {
> > width: 253px;
> > height: auto;
> > border-right: 2px dotted #5D355E;
> > float: left;
> > margin: 0px;
> > padding: 0px;
> > clear: both;
> > }
> > #col1 p, #col2 p, #col3 p {
> > font: 12px/16px Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
> > margin: 0px;
> > padding: 5px 10px;
> > }
> > 
> 
> Mike, 
> There are two small problems with this example. You are applying the
> clear:both to the #col1 div. This works well in some instances but will fail
> if #col2 or #col3 have much longer content. By fail I mean that the other
> divs will poke out the bottom of their parent container.
> 
> You can see this here:
> http://www.maxdesign.com.au/jobs/css/sullivan-daley.htm
> 
> Another point (getting picky here, so apologies) is that you are show pixel
> sizes for your font-sizes inside the containers. This is not recommended by
> the WAI as it is not good for browsers that do not support scaling of
> content in pixels (like IE). A better option is to use percents or EM's. A
> really good article on this is here:
> http://www.clagnut.com/blog/348/
> 
> Thanks
> Russ
> 
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> * 
> 
> 

Michael Rainey
Blog: http://raineym.dyndns.org/
Resume: http://mrainey.dyndns.org/

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Re: [WSG] W3C Validater doesn't recognize XHTML

noa wrote:
The W3C validator does recognise "application/xhtml+xml".  The problem 
might be that you're not checking for the W3C's user agent string when 
you decide which browsers to send which MIME type to.  The string is 
"W3C_Validator".
Checking for user agent doesn't make sense; there are too many browsers 
to check for each one and I would have to know what each one does. It 
makes much more sense to let the UA tell you which mime types it 
accepts, as it is suppose to do. Therefore, by not including 
"application/xhtml+xml" in the header, it's saying that it doesn't 
recognize it.
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Re: [WSG] W3C Validater doesn't recognize XHTML

2004-05-19 Thread Ryan Christie

I assume you're using PHP Mordechai? If so, copy&paste this -- based off 
Simon's script but altered for 1.1 DTD instead of 1.0Tran, with added 
sniffing::

$charset = "iso-8859-1";
$mime = "text/html";
function fix_code($buffer) {
return (preg_replace("!\s*/>!", ">", $buffer));
}
if(stristr($_SERVER["HTTP_ACCEPT"],"application/xhtml+xml")||
   stristr($_SERVER["HTTP_USER_AGENT"],"Opera/6")||
   stristr($_SERVER["HTTP_USER_AGENT"],"Opera/7")||
   stristr($_SERVER["HTTP_USER_AGENT"],"WDG_Validator")||
   stristr($_SERVER["HTTP_USER_AGENT"],"W3C_Validator")||
   stristr($_SERVER["HTTP_USER_AGENT"],"W3C_CSS_Validator")
) {
   
if(preg_match("/application\/xhtml\+xml;q=0(\.[1-9]+)/i",$_SERVER["HTTP_ACCEPT"],$matches)) 
{
   $xhtml_q = $matches[1];
   
if(preg_match("/text\/html;q=0(\.[1-9]+)/i",$_SERVER["HTTP_ACCEPT"],$matches)) 
{
   $html_q = $matches[1];
   if($xhtml_q >= $html_q) {
   $mime = "application/xhtml+xml";
   }
   }
   } else {
  $mime = "application/xhtml+xml";
   }
}
if($mime == "application/xhtml+xml") {
   $prolog_type = "\nhttp://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd\";>\nhttp://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml\"; xml:lang=\"en\">\n";
} else {
   ob_start("fix_code");
   $prolog_type = "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd\";>\n\n";
}
header("Content-Type: $mime;charset=$charset");
header("Vary: Accept");
print $prolog_type;
?>

--
Ryan Christie| e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Harrisonburg, VA | w: http://shadyland.theward.net
---() ()--
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Re: [WSG] Help with Float

2004-05-19 Thread tony

Quoting Sean Sullivan-Daley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> I am trying to float 3 columns next to each other.
> This appearas to be OK in IE6 but is broken in FireFox.
> The columns break out of the container in FireFox.

There's now a new way to clear float containers without the need to use an extra
clearing element.
http://www.csscreator.com/attributes/containedfloat.php

Tony
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Re: [WSG] a z-index problem? maybe

2004-05-19 Thread Mike Rainey

I see two problems - one obvious, one I'm not sure about.

The one I am sure about is that the pop-up menus don't show up in IE.

Second, you have a z-index of 13 for the center div, and a z-index of 1 for the nav 
div. The menus don't have a z-index, so they will inherit from the parent, z-index: 1.

I don't have Eric's new book yet, so I can only speculate.

> 
> From: Barbara Dozetos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2004/05/19 Wed PM 04:07:09 EDT
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [WSG] a z-index problem?  maybe
> 
> This is a testing ground for me -- obviously.  I am trying to implement 
> the hover/pop-up menus as demonstrated in More Eric Meyers on CSS and I 
> can't quite figure out how to get the pop-outs to appear on top of the 
> center div, rather than disappearing behind it.  The third level of nav 
> can't be seen at all.
> 
> Help, anyone?
> 
> http://www.pcc.com/testing/clientwelcome.html
> 
> -- 
> Barbara Dozetos   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Physician's Computer Company  Marketing Team
> 1 Main St., Ste 7 802-846-5532
> Winooski, VT 05404
> 
> 
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> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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> 
> 

Michael Rainey
Blog: http://raineym.dyndns.org/
Resume: http://mrainey.dyndns.org/

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[WSG] a z-index problem? maybe

2004-05-19 Thread Barbara Dozetos

This is a testing ground for me -- obviously.  I am trying to implement 
the hover/pop-up menus as demonstrated in More Eric Meyers on CSS and I 
can't quite figure out how to get the pop-outs to appear on top of the 
center div, rather than disappearing behind it.  The third level of nav 
can't be seen at all.

Help, anyone?
http://www.pcc.com/testing/clientwelcome.html
--
Barbara Dozetos [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Physician's Computer CompanyMarketing Team
1 Main St., Ste 7   802-846-5532
Winooski, VT 05404
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Re: [WSG] Help with Float

russ - maxdesign wrote:
Floats are suppose to extend past bottom of a container.
   

That statement is correct in this instance but might be slightly misleading.
It would be better to say that the heights of floated items are ignored by
the parent container, so there is a possibility they may poke out the bottom
of the parent container. This 'poking out' is dependant on what other
content is inside the container.
 

Thank you; that's what I had meant.
A third method is outlined in great detail here:
http://www.positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html
 

While the programmer in me loves JavaScript, the Web pro in me hates it. 
I would recommend doing the sniffing for IE/Mac server side and only 
adding it if needed (I keep both sides happy that way).
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[WSG] W3C Validater doesn't recognize XHTML

According to the W3C, my valid XHTML 1.1 page only validates to HTML 
4.01 Strict. I'm checking for "application/xhtml+xml" in order to serve 
up the correct header and DOCTYPE, so apparently, their validater 
doesn't recognize that mime type!

It would be nice to be able to use the logo, but if anyone checks, 
they'll be told the wrong thing. Where this becomes a big problem is if 
you promise a client valid XHTML 1.1 and the validater says otherwise...
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[WSG] Help with Float

2004-05-19 Thread Sean Sullivan-Daley

I am trying to float 3 columns next to each other.
This appearas to be OK in IE6 but is broken in FireFox.
The columns break out of the container in FireFox.

Here is a link to the Files.
http://sean.ashtonweb.com/test/
http://sean.ashtonweb.com/test/css/style2.css

What am I doing wrong?

-Sean
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Re: [WSG] 'It Works in Gecko Browsers ...'

2004-05-19 Thread Brian Foy

One more thing will be required: Web pages need to be better on 
compliant browsers.
So in an effort to coax standards compliance out of MS we should all 
make sites look *beter* in non IE browsers?

I've yet to run across a client who loves standards and MS arm twisting 
so much that they would allow anything other then IE to be the browser 
there site looks *better* in.

It look us long enough to get clients to pay attention to the fact that 
the customer/user is king, and the king, like it or not, uses IE.

We can't have it both ways. Either we are for the user or we are not. 
Keep that in mind the next time your pulling hair out tweaking a clients 
site for IE. Chances are better then good, that IE is the browser that 
is going to hit that site most today, tomorrow and the day after.

Brian

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RE: [WSG] Extending full height (was Problem with IE)

2004-05-19 Thread Mike Pepper

Nice one, mate. Cross browser compliant to boot.

Mike

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Jason Turnbull
Sent: 19 May 2004 13:01
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Extending full height (was Problem with IE)


> Kim wrote:
> I'm not sure I follow your suggestion. The problem is if I remove the
>   the #navcontainer will be shorter that the
content/sidebar
> meaning there will be a space between #navcontainer and #footer I
uploaded
> the corrected version here
> 
> Would it be possible to "force" the #navcontainer to stretch down to
the
> #footer without the   ? If so how?

Kim,

This another solution that doesn't require an image, I've put up the
changes I made (without your images) in case I don't explain it too
well.
http://digiscape.net.au/test/mouseriders.htm

I added the same background color you used on your left column to your
container div, and made the content area and top menu have a white
background

The content div now has the black left side border (originally a right
side border on navcontainer) and reduced the margins.

I also added a clearing class to a  at the bottom of the content.

This allows your content to extend, and have the left hand column look
like it extends all the way

Regards
Jason


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Re: [WSG] 'It Works in Gecko Browsers ...'





Robert Reed wrote:

  
The only way I can see a browser beating IE is if it looks, feels and
behaves like IE in every way possible.

  
  
An average user will not go to the trouble of downloading and installing
another browser to replace the one they got with the OS - even if it has 25%
better features.  



  M$ will dominate the browser market for a while to come -
fact.
  

Maybe so, but if that's your short term goal, then it's time to give up
on Web Standards. Wars are rarely won in a single battle. I think it
would be a major victory for WS if IE drops to 80% over the next two
years. There is no need to topple IE, just to put enough pressure to
make MS accountable and to become compliant.

Combine XP's lack of success in the corporate world and MS
unwillingness to give MSIE users an upgrade path without an OS upgrade,
and you'll begin to see a change.

One more thing will be required: Web pages need to be better on
compliant browsers. For people to switch there must be a tangible
advantage to switching. For what ever reason, security has been a
no-go. The learning curve to use a new browser, no matter how slight,
is an obstacle. Since most people tend to be visually oriented to some
degree, if it looks better, even just a little, there is a chance
they'll relate to it.

RE: [WSG] Tables are bad because...

2004-05-19 Thread Jamie Mason

Title: RE: [WSG] Tables are bad because...





Hi mate,
I hope I haven't misunderstood you, but the point I've gathered has been that tables are not to be used for anything other than their original intended purpose of presenting tabular data. Leaving it's use as a positional grid out of your available options, this instead to be done via CSS controlled divs.

Tables themselves are not the problem, their misuse is what is being ousted.


Apologies again if I've missed the point of your mail.



Jamie Mason
==
> From: Chris Blown 
[...]
> One of the things that I find hard to believe in this whole debate is
> that tables are some how seen as "a non standards based approach".


I see that view a lot from people who just discovered the beauty of CSS,
and are going a bit mad in the fight to kill off tables, even when they're
the appropriate markup to use (tabular data).


> Of
> course an argument could be made that tables only exist in 
> the standard
> for legacy reasons, since dropping them would break the whole web.


Well, for tabular data, there is *no* equivalent with the same
semantic and structural properties of a well written, multi-row, multi-column
table. Using divs and spans and stuff to recreate a table look without
tables for tabular data shows a complete misunderstanding of what the
actual purpose of the markup is all about. Yes, you may end up eliminating
every single table, and get a nice glowing warm feeling...but you've effectively
broken any relationship which was defined between the various headings and
the data cells, turning well formatted tabular information into a meaningless
mess...


> does the fact that we use them for other purposes make it wrong? 


Of course not. However, by the same reasoning, it doesn't make it right
to pervert the element's original purpose, the same way that blockquote should
not be perverted to get visual indentations, for instance...it doesn't make
the actual blockquote element wrong, but it shouldn't be used in that way.
It's the perversion of purpose that is wrong.


> The popular response to Andy's article that using the odd 
> table without
> nesting them, is simple practical advice. I don't really think the odd
> table is that detrimental to our efforts of advocating web standards. 


Exactly. As long as the designers/developers are making the decision in 
full knowledge that there might be a better way to handle the situation without
having to resort to tables, but that - due to time constraints, need for
legacy browser support (in a visual/layout sense), work with multiple authors
who may not be up to speed with table-less layout - in this particular situation
using a table will do for now.


Just going through this email, I hope I'm not giving the impression that
I'm in disagreement with you...I see that we're both coming from the same
pragmatic approach. Just filling in the other side of the argument kind of
thing...


Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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Re: [WSG] 'It Works in Gecko Browsers ...'

2004-05-19 Thread Justin French

On 19/05/2004, at 11:59 PM, Rimantas Liubertas wrote:
Opera will never do it.  The UI is butt ugly, the usability is woeful,
and the whole thing feels a whole lot cheaper.\
Have you seen opera 7.50? And opera on mobile phones is reality,
not something "will never do it".
The only way I can see a browser beating IE is if it looks, feels and
behaves like IE in every way possible. They don't need to reinvent the
wheel in terms of UI design and interaction -- they need to mirror it,
Oh, please. I've swithced to FireFox (Firebird then) a year ago just 
because
it looks, feels and behaves way better than IE. And even before the 
switch
I've been using NetCaptor (commercial software), which added some 
features
to IE.
I got those for free with Mozilla.

Which was the last version of Mozilla/Opera you have tried to use?
You're missing the point.  If Opera and or Mozilla want to TAKE MARKET 
SHARE FROM HAPPY IE USERS, then they won't be able to do it by 
alienating the potential user with a brand new interface to learn.  
Essentially, this would of course be a backward step for Opera and 
Mozilla in some ways (giving up on some of their innovations and UI 
concepts) but the reality here is that for Opera and Mozilla to take a 
share of the IE market, they need to make the transition easy.

"Just like Explorer, but safer."
"Just like Explorer, but faster."
"Just like Explorer, but better."
"Just like Explorer, but secure."
... would all be a perfect concepts for a browser trying to steal 
people out of the IE market.  Much more effective than:

"Opera. A whole new way to surf the web."
Of course it'd still have to remain free, and they'll never be able to 
overcome the fact that IE will be bundled / integrated into Windows 
forever :)

---
Justin French
http://indent.com.au
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RE: [WSG] 'It Works in Gecko Browsers ...'

2004-05-19 Thread Robert Reed

> The only way I can see a browser beating IE is if it looks, feels and
> behaves like IE in every way possible.

An average user will not go to the trouble of downloading and installing
another browser to replace the one they got with the OS - even if it has 25%
better features.  M$ will dominate the browser market for a while to come -
fact.

Robert Reed
SiteStart
www.sitestart.co.uk


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RE: [WSG] 'It Works in Gecko Browsers ...'

2004-05-19 Thread Jamie Mason

Title: RE: [WSG] 'It Works in Gecko Browsers ...'





I feel that Mozilla is by a country mile the best browser available, but the guy you're replying to there is right in my opinion. The average web user doesn't comfortably adapt to new environments all that well.

Jamie Mason: Design
 



-Original Message-
From: Rimantas Liubertas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: 19 May 2004 15:00
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] 'It Works in Gecko Browsers ...'



>Opera will never do it.  The UI is butt ugly, the usability is woeful,
>and the whole thing feels a whole lot cheaper.\


Have you seen opera 7.50? And opera on mobile phones is reality, not something "will never do it".


>The only way I can see a browser beating IE is if it looks, feels and
>behaves like IE in every way possible. They don't need to reinvent the 
>wheel in terms of UI design and interaction -- they need to mirror it, 


Oh, please. I've swithced to FireFox (Firebird then) a year ago just because it looks, feels and behaves way better than IE. And even before the switch I've been using NetCaptor (commercial software), which added some features to IE. I got those for free with Mozilla.

Which was the last version of Mozilla/Opera you have tried to use?


Regards,
Rimantas
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RE: [WSG] javascript form submission

2004-05-19 Thread Robert Reed




mono.org appears to be something quite 
different.
 
Try http://www.go-mono.com/ 
 
R.

  -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Nancy 
  JohnsonSent: 19 May 2004 14:35To: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [WSG] _javascript_ form 
  submission
  
  Thanks I did not know 
  that asp.net ran on linux. I will look at the URL you sent.
   
  Nancy
   
  -Original 
  Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 9:31 
  PMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] _javascript_ form 
  submission
   
  
  If you are an ASP coder and 
  want to move to Linux then why not use ASP.NET? It will be a much easier 
  learning curve than PHP.
  
   
  
  FYI: Many ASP.NET pages run 
  on Mono [C# compiler for Linux] including web services, and many DotNet apps 
  run without modification. 
  
   
  
  The Mono website is http://mono.org.
  
   
  
  woric
  
   
  
   Original Message - 
  Nancy Johnson wrote:
  
Dear All, This is a side track to this thread: I have always used .asp for formsubmission, but I want to find a _javascript_ and/or php versions of formsubmissions in case I have to do a site that does not have a windowsbased server.  
I think PHP is the way to 
go, since it works on almost all servers out there, including Windows.

Re: [WSG] XForms

2004-05-19 Thread Tonico Strasser

Jamie Mason wrote:
Hey guys,
Just a quickie, and sorry to be a pain.
I read in "Special Edition Using XHTML 1.0" (Molly E. Holzschlag) about 
XHTML-FML (The FML being 'Forms Meta Language'), the book linked to 
www.mozquito.com which is no longer online and I can't find any mention 
of it on w3.org.

It looked fantastic but, what happened to it? Has it been dropped or is 
XForms the new name for XHTML-FML?

I clicked on the "Mozquito" link at 
 and was 
redirected to 

HTH
Tonico
--
Tonico Strasser ?:-)
http://Tonico.FreeZope.org
Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de
Check out http://www.WebProducer.at
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RE: [WSG] 'It Works in Gecko Browsers ...'

> The only way I can see a browser beating IE is if it looks, feels and 
> behaves like IE in every way possible.

If it looks like IE, feels like IE, tastes like IE, then people are more
often than not going to be completely unaware that they ARE using something
that's not IE. Maybe that's what you intend - having the new browsers silently,
transparently supplanting IE - but this may cause more confusion than any
GUI inconsistencies.
The points that you mention (security etc) are, for the most part, of little
relevance to the average user (they just assume it all magically happens).

My opinion, anyway..

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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Re: [WSG] 'It Works in Gecko Browsers ...'

2004-05-19 Thread Rimantas Liubertas

>Opera will never do it.  The UI is butt ugly, the usability is woeful, 
>and the whole thing feels a whole lot cheaper.\

Have you seen opera 7.50? And opera on mobile phones is reality,
not something "will never do it".

>The only way I can see a browser beating IE is if it looks, feels and 
>behaves like IE in every way possible. They don't need to reinvent the 
>wheel in terms of UI design and interaction -- they need to mirror it, 

Oh, please. I've swithced to FireFox (Firebird then) a year ago just because
it looks, feels and behaves way better than IE. And even before the switch
I've been using NetCaptor (commercial software), which added some features
to IE.
I got those for free with Mozilla.

Which was the last version of Mozilla/Opera you have tried to use?

Regards,
Rimantas
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[WSG] XForms

2004-05-19 Thread Jamie Mason

Title: XForms





Hey guys,
Just a quickie, and sorry to be a pain.


I read in "Special Edition Using XHTML 1.0" (Molly E. Holzschlag) about XHTML-FML (The FML being 'Forms Meta Language'), the book linked to www.mozquito.com which is no longer online and I can't find any mention of it on w3.org. 

It looked fantastic but, what happened to it? Has it been dropped or is XForms the new name for XHTML-FML?


Thanks a lot!



Jamie Mason
ps-  Does anyone know any good XForms and/or XML tutorials online?

RE: [WSG] javascript form submission

2004-05-19 Thread Nancy Johnson










Thanks I did not know that asp.net ran on
linux. I will look at the URL you sent.

 

Nancy

 

-Original
Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 9:31
PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] _javascript_ form
submission

 



If you are an ASP coder
and want to move to Linux then why not use ASP.NET? It will be a much easier
learning curve than PHP.





 





FYI: Many ASP.NET pages
run on Mono [C# compiler for Linux] including web services, and many DotNet
apps run without modification. 





 





The Mono website is http://mono.org.





 





woric





 





 Original Message
- 
Nancy Johnson wrote:





Dear All, This is a side track to this thread: I have always used .asp for formsubmission, but I want to find a _javascript_ and/or php versions of formsubmissions in case I have to do a site that does not have a windowsbased server.  

I think PHP is the way to
go, since it works on almost all servers out there, including Windows.

Re: [WSG] 'It Works in Gecko Browsers ...'

2004-05-19 Thread Justin French

On 19/05/2004, at 8:24 PM, Mordechai Peller wrote:
Some of signs that is might slip are increasing computer literacy in 
the general public, increased awareness of Mozilla and Opera (media 
reports, Opera on mobile phones, etc.), and increased acceptance of 
Linux. We can aid this further by educating our friends, family, and 
clients.
Opera will never do it.  The UI is butt ugly, the usability is woeful, 
and the whole thing feels a whole lot cheaper.\

The only way I can see a browser beating IE is if it looks, feels and 
behaves like IE in every way possible. They don't need to reinvent the 
wheel in terms of UI design and interaction -- they need to mirror it, 
which in turn lowers the learning curve required to "switch".  This is 
the big flaw in Mozilla and Opera right now -- they look and feel 
different, and people are afraid of change.


My biggest gripe with Mozilla et al is that they don't use the Win/Mac 
standard GUI form elements and widgets, which not only cheapens the 
look (IMHO), but instantly causes the browser (and all the user's 
favourite web pages) to feel unfamiliar or foreign).


What they DO need to do is beat IE in regards to security, performance, 
preferences (cookies, scripting, security, etc), and yes, standards 
compliance, and sell the browser on these points.  I've got some nice 
ideas on how Opera or Mozilla could be marketed to the masses, but I 
see reason to give those away for free :)

---
Justin French
http://indent.com.au
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RE: [WSG] Re: javascript form submission

2004-05-19 Thread Nancy Johnson

thanks

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Alan Milnes
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 9:53 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Re: javascript form submission

> I am also weak with javascript and no nothing about php.  Can you
point
> me to some good URLS and/or books that could help me out?

Try http://www.phpfreaks.com to get you started.

Alan 
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Re: [WSG] Free W3C workshop...

2004-05-19 Thread Chris Stratford





Wow sounds great,
I goto UTS at the moment - although I have never been in Building 10
before...
(the room number sounds weird. normally they are formatted:
building#/level#/room#... eg - for building 10, level 2, room 47, would
be: 100247... i dont know what room 470 would be...)

I think i might actually turn up to this one!
I might be a bit late, because my lab ends at 2, and i need some lunch
before i head over.

I have read a little bit about XForms, although it didnt seem to make
much sense to me...
So this might be a great learning experience...

:)

thanks russ!


russ - maxdesign wrote:

  You are invited to a free W3C workshop on the W3C's XForms and Semantic Web
Services Activities to be held at the:

Location:  Room 470, Level 2, Building 10, University of Technology Sydney
http://it.uts.edu.au/about/maps.html
Time and Date: 23rd June 2004, 2:00pm to 5:00pm (includes afternoon tea),

RSVP at: http://w3c.dstc.edu.au/events/sydworkshop_jun04.html


Workshop Program 
== 
2:00pm to 3:00pm - Semantic Web Services, Dr Jane Hunter
Afternoon Tea 
3:45pm to 4:45pm - New Generation of Web Forms - experience with XForms
trials, Dr Zoran Milosevic


2pm - 3pm:  Semantic Web Services

Web services are transforming the Internet from a collection of information
into a distributed computational device. They enable software applications
to be distributed, accessed and executed via the Web. But current web
service technologies (UDDI, WSDL, and SOAP) provide limited support for
automating service discovery, service
configuration and service composition (i.e., realizing complex workflows
with Web services). In order to fully employ the potential of web services,
they need to be appropriately described. Semantic Web Services combines
Semantic Web technology with Web Service technology to enable automated and
dynamic Web service discovery, execution and composition through new
technologies such as OWL-S (Ontology Web
Language for Services).

This presentation will provide an overview of the Semantic Web Services
vision, describe recent technological developments (such as OWL-S), and
demonstrate potential applications of Semantic Web services through a number
of case studies. 


3:34pm - 4:45pm:  New Generation of Web Forms - experience with XForms
trials 
===
Electronic forms on the Web provide user interface to data and services
offered on the Web. By using Web forms users can interact with the
enterprise applications and back-end systems linked to these forms. Web
applications, e-government and e-commerce solutions have sparked the demand
for better Web forms - supporting richer and more dynamic interactions than
what is possible with existing HTML forms.

XForms is new World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) specification that provides
more intelligent support for Web forms to meet this demand. This is achieved
by separating the data model of the form from their presentation format.
Both the data and presentation models are described using XML. This design
enables more efficient integration with backend systems and facilitates
efficient exchange of XML data. The separation also makes it possible to
have multiple presentation formats for the same data model, which enables
repurposing, reuse and accessibility across different types of devices.

This presentation: 
* provides an introduction to the XForms standard, and compares XForms to
other approaches  
* describes our XForms pilot project, which was funded by NOIE ITOL grant
* highlights our initial experience of using XForms in various business
environments as part of the pilot project, including tools used and results
achieved  
* will provide the attendees with background information that can be
valuable when making decisions about their future strategy and adoption path
regarding Web forms technologies



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Re: [WSG] Tables are bad because...

2004-05-19 Thread Patrick Griffiths

Who are all of these mad heavy-handed authoritarian web nuts that you're
talking about? ;)

>From what I see there are different ways of putting over a point, each
one usually as legitimate as the other and they all usually contribute
to a stronger understanding of web standards for those new to the area
and for those with more experience. Web designers tend not to be stupid
people and if you can put forward an intelligent and logical argument,
there's no need to sit on the fence. Being prescriptive is obviously a
bad thing, but justified reasoning can be enlightening and inspiring.

When I want to learn something, I want to know how to do it the right
way and, usually, the best way. I know it's going to take me time to
learn it, but I'd rather know what I'm ultimately aiming for rather than
going for something that's not quite as good.


> I think most people would agree that there are *some* individuals who
> have a very purist and prescriptive approach to standards.
Purist is ok, as long as it doesn't affect practicality. Prescriptive
isn't ok, but even if an 'extreme' argument can be backed up with sound
justification then it can only be a good thing.

> There is
> also a lot of "theoretical" discussion about web standards going on at
> the moment. For people within the community, I'm sure all this all
> feels reasonable. We know that we are partaking in a theoretical
> discussion and that in reality, things are less black and white.
> However, if you are outside the community, this kind of attitude can
> feel extremely intimidating.
Or, if the full potential of web standards can be conveyed, inspiring.
I agree that there is a big difference between the theoretical and the
practical, but again, where are these people who put theory before
practice?

> However some individuals can come
> across as dogmatic and prescriptive. Nobody likes being preached at or
> being told that their hard work is in vein because they used a table
to
> lay out a form, or have a few minor validation issues.
Agreed. Who's saying that though? Most comments I see are along the
lines of "this would be better if..." rather than "No you oik! Your work
is WORTHLESS CRAP DAMN YOU!"

> I think it does the community and the web standards cause a much
> greater disservice to stand dogmatically behind a set of beliefs, thus
> helping to reinforce the stereotypes even more. Don't stifle
discussion
> or knock those who deviate from the party line. I'm all for pushing
the
> standards boundaries, but we also need to accept and talk about the
> limitations involved. If we don't acknowledge and discuss the
> limitations as a community, you know that others will.
Acknowledge limitations yes, but where there are real demonstratable
advantages to be had they should be raved about; shouted from the tree
tops rather than beating around the bush.


Patrick


Patrick Griffiths (PTG)
 http://www.htmldog.com/ptg/
 http://www.htmldog.com


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Re: [WSG] Extending full height (was Problem with IE)

2004-05-19 Thread Kim Kruse

Hi Jason,

THANK YOU so very much. I'll take a long look tonight to make sure I
understand and learn from it.

Kim

- Original Message - 
From: "Jason Turnbull" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 2:00 PM
Subject: RE: [WSG] Extending full height (was Problem with IE)


> > Kim wrote:
> > I'm not sure I follow your suggestion. The problem is if I remove the
> >   the #navcontainer will be shorter that the
> content/sidebar
> > meaning there will be a space between #navcontainer and #footer I
> uploaded
> > the corrected version here
> >
> > Would it be possible to "force" the #navcontainer to stretch down to
> the
> > #footer without the   ? If so how?
>
> Kim,
>
> This another solution that doesn't require an image, I've put up the
> changes I made (without your images) in case I don't explain it too
> well.
> http://digiscape.net.au/test/mouseriders.htm
>
> I added the same background color you used on your left column to your
> container div, and made the content area and top menu have a white
> background
>
> The content div now has the black left side border (originally a right
> side border on navcontainer) and reduced the margins.
>
> I also added a clearing class to a  at the bottom of the content.
>
> This allows your content to extend, and have the left hand column look
> like it extends all the way
>
> Regards
> Jason
>
>
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>
>

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Re: [WSG] Tables are bad because... Web standards fascism

> One of Andy's 10 questions answers reinforced this by the use of words
> like "fascist" (a fascist is a pretty nasty thing BTW) to describe some
> people (easily misunderstood as everyone) in the web standards
> community who might be overly zealous about whether or not a site
> validates. Not that I think even these creatures abound, and are
> certainly not part of the hard core of the web standards community.

John,

Andy has answered most of you comments eloquently, as always. However, I'd
like to address the "web standards fascism" comment.

The actual question was asked by me to Andy (so your criticism should be
aimed at me). "Do you think there is an element of web standards fascism in
the web development community?"

Firstly, the term 'web standards fascists' was meant to be tongue in cheek.

Secondly, the reason for the question was because a small section of the web
community seemed to be attacking the Web Standards Awards for a period just
after it began. Basically, any site that was nominated was attacked - and
sometimes for extremely pedantic reasons.

This sort of attitude is completely counter-productive. It can actually
undermine the confidence of people who are just starting to feel good about
moving towards web standards. I had already talked about this to Andy, so it
seemed like a good question to be asking in public.

Finally, I think your objection to the term is probably one of definition.
So, here are my definitions for what they are worth:

 If you believe in standards, are passionate about them and want to convert
others through co-operative behaviour then you could be considered to be an
'evangelist'.

If you use web standards (or any knowledge for that matter) as a weapon
against people, with the purpose of exposing them or making them feel bad
then you could be called a 'web standards fascist'. This is a fine line as
constructive criticism is always valuable, but destructive criticism is not.

Am I sounding like a fortune cookie again?
Russ

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RE: [WSG] Extending full height (was Problem with IE)

2004-05-19 Thread Jason Turnbull

> Kim wrote:
> I'm not sure I follow your suggestion. The problem is if I remove the
>   the #navcontainer will be shorter that the
content/sidebar
> meaning there will be a space between #navcontainer and #footer I
uploaded
> the corrected version here
> 
> Would it be possible to "force" the #navcontainer to stretch down to
the
> #footer without the   ? If so how?

Kim,

This another solution that doesn't require an image, I've put up the
changes I made (without your images) in case I don't explain it too
well.
http://digiscape.net.au/test/mouseriders.htm

I added the same background color you used on your left column to your
container div, and made the content area and top menu have a white
background

The content div now has the black left side border (originally a right
side border on navcontainer) and reduced the margins.

I also added a clearing class to a  at the bottom of the content.

This allows your content to extend, and have the left hand column look
like it extends all the way

Regards
Jason

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Re: [WSG] Tables are bad because...

2004-05-19 Thread Andy Budd

John Allsopp wrote:
Andy,
Hi John,
I wasn't actually going too respond to your comments but considering 
your latest email, I thought it was probably a good idea.

I actually wrote about half a dozen different replies to the article 
and posted none of them, other than my snarky comment on your blog, 
for which I apologize.
No worries. I'm a big guy and can handle criticism.
I didn't publish them because they were all a little, well, heated.
I usually write, I hope, with a little levity, and wit, if on occasion 
it can be quite dry. I just couldn't in this case.
Again, no worries. Like I said in the preface to my article, one of the 
reasons for publishing it was to play devils advocate. In all honesty I 
was expecting a much bigger and more heated "backlash" than the article 
actually got. As such I was fully prepared for a certain amount of 
negative criticism.

I see where you are coming from, but really, I think it is up to those 
who honestly want to advocate for a non standards based approach to do 
so for themselves.
Funnily, they usually end up looking like David Emberton's article.
Another reason for publishing the article was to provide a more 
balanced view of the situation. My fear is that, without open and 
reasonable discussion about the realities of web standards development, 
people will start to believe the reactionary views of people like David 
Emberton.

I'd prefer somebody who's struggling with CSS to read my article and 
think that it's OK to use the odd table in a transitional layout, 
rather than read David's article and decide that CSS layout just 
doesn't work!

Judging by the comments to your post, you'll see that a lot of people 
want to use tables, largely because that is what they know and do now. 
They simply don't want to accept the arguments in favor of a standards 
based web. That's fine by me, they are quite entitled to do so. I 
don't think they are very wise, but while I evangelize web standards, 
I don't insist on people using them.
But unfortunately an article like yours is not read by them in the 
spirit in which you intended, it is read as a vindication of their 
position. "See, Andy Budd agrees with me".
Funny but I've just re-read the comments and I don't get that feeling 
at all. The general response seems to be that people are happy using 
CSS for most layout situations but will not discount simple, non nested 
tables if appropriate.

I think if people do drop CSS layout and say "See, Andy Budd agrees 
with me", then they have completely misunderstood the point of the 
article. I believe the concepts in the article are well written and 
logical, and that the purpose and conclusions are clear. It's true that 
I should have been a bit more specific by stating that I was only 
talking about CSS for positioning, but most people seem to have realise 
that.

So rather than seeing something like "at times, it may be necessary to 
 use a non standards based approach to achieve an outcome within 
certain constraints, and that is ok" they see "all those standards 
zealots really don't know about the real world so everything they say 
can safely be ignored."
From my experience, people can be really intimidated by CSS and labour 
under the belief that it's all or nothing. This isn't helped by the 
attitudes of some standards practitioners who's strict views on coding 
can really put people off using CSS for layout. People respond much 
better to an even handed approach, than a prescriptive one.

Then Dave Shea, and Nick Bradbury and others weigh in nominally 
agreeing, making it all like its all so reasonable and realistic and 
essentially you reinforce the context of the discussion about web 
standards.
Well I wouldn't say that they weighed in as this give the impression 
that their comments were rather heavy handed. Their comments seemed 
reasonable and held weight because they came from experienced web 
developers who have experienced some of the things I was talking about.

And what was that context?
Bluntly, using the words of the article, that people who advocate 
standards are "zealots" "purists", live in "Ivory towers" (and so by 
implication, not the real world). They "demonize" tables, and so by 
implication the users of of tables, and they have a sense of 
"superiority" about their approach.
This is the bit that made me sigh. This isn't "objective", its only a 
slightly more subtle version of David Emberton's nonsense.
I think most people would agree that there are *some* individuals who 
have a very purist and prescriptive approach to standards. There is 
also a lot of "theoretical" discussion about web standards going on at 
the moment. For people within the community, I'm sure all this all 
feels reasonable. We know that we are partaking in a theoretical 
discussion and that in reality, things are less black and white. 
However, if you are outside the community, this kind of attitude can 
feel extremely intimidating.

I also think there are a number of web sta

[WSG] Free W3C workshop...

You are invited to a free W3C workshop on the W3C's XForms and Semantic Web
Services Activities to be held at the:

Location:  Room 470, Level 2, Building 10, University of Technology Sydney
http://it.uts.edu.au/about/maps.html
Time and Date: 23rd June 2004, 2:00pm to 5:00pm (includes afternoon tea),

RSVP at: http://w3c.dstc.edu.au/events/sydworkshop_jun04.html


Workshop Program 
== 
2:00pm to 3:00pm - Semantic Web Services, Dr Jane Hunter
Afternoon Tea 
3:45pm to 4:45pm - New Generation of Web Forms - experience with XForms
trials, Dr Zoran Milosevic


2pm - 3pm:  Semantic Web Services

Web services are transforming the Internet from a collection of information
into a distributed computational device. They enable software applications
to be distributed, accessed and executed via the Web. But current web
service technologies (UDDI, WSDL, and SOAP) provide limited support for
automating service discovery, service
configuration and service composition (i.e., realizing complex workflows
with Web services). In order to fully employ the potential of web services,
they need to be appropriately described. Semantic Web Services combines
Semantic Web technology with Web Service technology to enable automated and
dynamic Web service discovery, execution and composition through new
technologies such as OWL-S (Ontology Web
Language for Services).

This presentation will provide an overview of the Semantic Web Services
vision, describe recent technological developments (such as OWL-S), and
demonstrate potential applications of Semantic Web services through a number
of case studies. 


3:34pm - 4:45pm:  New Generation of Web Forms - experience with XForms
trials 
===
Electronic forms on the Web provide user interface to data and services
offered on the Web. By using Web forms users can interact with the
enterprise applications and back-end systems linked to these forms. Web
applications, e-government and e-commerce solutions have sparked the demand
for better Web forms - supporting richer and more dynamic interactions than
what is possible with existing HTML forms.

XForms is new World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) specification that provides
more intelligent support for Web forms to meet this demand. This is achieved
by separating the data model of the form from their presentation format.
Both the data and presentation models are described using XML. This design
enables more efficient integration with backend systems and facilitates
efficient exchange of XML data. The separation also makes it possible to
have multiple presentation formats for the same data model, which enables
repurposing, reuse and accessibility across different types of devices.

This presentation: 
* provides an introduction to the XForms standard, and compares XForms to
other approaches  
* describes our XForms pilot project, which was funded by NOIE ITOL grant
* highlights our initial experience of using XForms in various business
environments as part of the pilot project, including tools used and results
achieved  
* will provide the attendees with background information that can be
valuable when making decisions about their future strategy and adoption path
regarding Web forms technologies



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Re: [WSG] Vertical Height Alignment Issues

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I am running with the following issue. I am working on a 2 col design. Unlike other areas, 
both the content & the right side bar is of rounded corners with a gap in between. My 
issue is there will always be more content. How do i align my vertical height position of 
the side bar to the co
Check out http://www.positioniseverything.net/piefecta-rigid.html. While 
that is 3-col, not 2, you should be able to tweak it to fit you needs.
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Re: [WSG] height problem

2004-05-19 Thread Kim Kruse

Hi Mike,

I'm not sure I follow your suggestion. The problem is if I remove the
  the #navcontainer will be shorter that the content/sidebar
meaning there will be a space between #navcontainer and #footer I uploaded
the corrected version here

Would it be possible to "force" the #navcontainer to stretch down to the
#footer without the   ? If so how?

Thank you very much for your time
Kim

- Original Message - 
From: "P.H.Lauke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 12:25 PM
Subject: RE: [WSG] height problem


> I'd suggest the best option would be to make it a background image on
> the body tag. Your body tag is going to be your top level containing
> block so it will always stretch to the height of your content.

Maybe being pedantic, but the top level container would be the HTML element,
and backgrounds that are meant to stretch to the entire window/viewport
should be placed as style rules to it. Otherwise, it can happen that, if the
content is too short, the background itself will only appear behind the
content, resulting in even more white space at the bottom.
(although I seem to recall that this problem only appears once you start
sending XHTML strict with a proper XML mime type)

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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RE: [WSG] height problem

> I'd suggest the best option would be to make it a background image on
> the body tag. Your body tag is going to be your top level containing
> block so it will always stretch to the height of your content.

Maybe being pedantic, but the top level container would be the HTML element,
and backgrounds that are meant to stretch to the entire window/viewport
should be placed as style rules to it. Otherwise, it can happen that, if the
content is too short, the background itself will only appear behind the
content, resulting in even more white space at the bottom.
(although I seem to recall that this problem only appears once you start
sending XHTML strict with a proper XML mime type)

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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Re: [WSG] 'It Works in Gecko Browsers ...'

Brian Foy wrote:
Neato CSS trick fails in IE? Dump it, at that point it's nothing but 
bloat for the majority who won't see it (including your client).
Painful to hear, but a very good point.
Someday MS will get on the ball (we hope), until then, if we want to 
make sites for the majority, we have to stop looking down our noses at 
IE as a bastard afterthought
...even if it is.
The good new is that there is no guarantee that IE will maintain it's 
market share. A number of factors suggest that it might slip. If it does 
start to slip, even if it is only to around 80%, I would think that 
should be enough to question the above point.

Some of signs that is might slip are increasing computer literacy in the 
general public, increased awareness of Mozilla and Opera (media reports, 
Opera on mobile phones, etc.), and increased acceptance of Linux. We can 
aid this further by educating our friends, family, and clients.

Netscape lost it's market share to IE, in part, because Netscape got 
complacence and IE became the better browser. While bundling was a major 
factor, Netscape maintained it's lead for a while despite that.
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Re: [WSG] Vertical Height Alignment Issues

Hi 

Please see the list guildines at
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm. If you want a
solution to your problem the guidlines will explain what information
you are going to need to provide in order to help us help you.


Cheers

Mark
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Re: [WSG] height problem

Hi Razvan

I'd suggest the best option would be to make it a background image on
the body tag. Your body tag is going to be your top level containing
block so it will always stretch to the height of your content.
relative height: properties are always going to be relative to your
viewport or visible area.

Heights are always going to be troublesome - see my post at
http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg%40webstandardsgroup.org/msg04815.html
for a bit more information on this or the stack of height related
posts we've had on the list recently at
http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg%40webstandardsgroup.org/.


Cheers

Mark
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RE: [WSG] Problem with IE

2004-05-19 Thread Mike Pepper




Hi 
Kim,
 
Drop 
in a clipped background gif of the same colour for the nav container 
on the CSS to the same width - 170px - but a few hundred px deep without 
overflow and all be well. I see you're using non break spaces to pad the depth 
but that will always be a fudge because once the window is resized (narrowed) 
your copy block will force the footer down and you're back to square 
one.
 
It's a 
pig to make divs expand to the footer. This is just one, simple and effective 
and lightweight (a few bytes), solution.
 
Mike 
Pepper
Accessible Web Developer
www.seowebsitepromotion.com

  -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Kim 
  KruseSent: 19 May 2004 09:22To: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WSG] Problem with 
  IE
  Hi,
   
  I don't know if this question is appropriate to 
  post here... but now I've done it.
   
  On this page http://www.pagemakers.dk/divtest/test.htm I 
  have a problem viewing in IE 6. On the left side there is about 10-15 px space 
  between #navcontainer and #footer and I can't figure out why. (CSS here http://www.pagemakers.dk/divtest/mouseriders.css)
   
  Could someone please have a look and 
  maybe what the solution might be... if there is one. I would really 
  appreciate it.
   
  Thank you
  Kim

RE: [WSG] Problem with IE

2004-05-19 Thread Jason Turnbull

> On this page http://www.pagemakers.dk/divtest/test.htm 
> I have a problem viewing in IE 6. On the left side there 
> is about 10-15 px space between #navcontainer and #footer 
> and I can't figure out why. 
> (CSS here http://www.pagemakers.dk/divtest/mouseriders.css)

Hi Kim,

It seems to be the default margins on p in the content div
Try adding the style
#content p {
margin:0;
padding:8px 0;
}

Removing the margins and adding padding to space out paragraphs.

I would also add a height to your left navcontainer, instead of using
repeated p elements to make it extend down.

Regards, 
Jason


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Re: [WSG] Hi I'm new here

2004-05-19 Thread Rick Faaberg

On 5/19/04 1:39 AM "Razvan Pop" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent this out:

> Hello and welcome.
> -- 
> Web Developer & SEO http://razvan.cpea.ro

Thanks to you Razvan, and to all, for your welcome! This seems to be a very
friendly list.

I'll be lurking and maybe get brave enough someday to post! :-)

Best

Rick

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RE: [WSG] Tables are bad because...