RE: [WSG] I18n - Traditional Simplified Chinese in an English web site
Hello tee, Thanks for your explanation of the Chinese problems for Mac IE users. I'd be really grateful if you could point me to concrete examples of these problems. Let me note that my understanding is that the majority of Chinese characters display fine. My guess would be that the characters required to display link text saying Traditional Chinese or Simplified Chinese in Chinese would also work fine - please confirm, if you can. Wrt my suggestions, note that I said use utf-8 'if you can'. (Note also that much of the time we will be referring to use of utf-8 on pages that point to Chinese pages, rather than pages that are in Chinese, so this would not always be an issue.) I'd really like to get better quantification of the size of the problem. If you can help me there I'd be v grateful. Also, there's the difficult problem of whether we should care about people who use outdated technology. I don't think there's a good answer to that. On the other hand, user agents are free so for issues centring on *them* I'm reluctant to relieve the pressure on people to upgrade. OS issues may be slightly more problematic, but I still hope people can be encouraged to move on where possible. The Web will never move forward if we throw up our hands and always design to the lowest common denominator. But that's another topic, and not one for which there's an easy answer... RI Richard Ishida W3C contact info: http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/ W3C Internationalization: http://www.w3.org/International/ Publication blog: http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of tee Sent: 12 April 2005 19:10 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] I18n - Traditional Simplified Chinese in an English web site Hi Richard, your answers are all very enlightened to me, especially that I intend to provide bilingual web site services. -use utf-8 as the page encoding if you can (you do Lachlan, I know) However I have a bit of doubt on this though. Don't get me wrong, I am a unicode supporter and have my Chinese page set to utf-8, despite the fact that I know very well Mac' IE 5.2 (which still have significant users) has poor support of unicode Chinese - some character are missing, some got cut of. I thought I could afford to lose this audience and I am sort of still believing it. Ever since my web site launched, 3 people email me that my Chinese site, the characters looks funny on their browsers. What a luck I have, three of them are using OS 9 with their beloved IEs. One who emailed me yesterday, actually was looking for a web designer who can make Chinese website and know the language well to help her with the content (which I am), and is a recommendation from a new client I recently got. The first sentence in her email is: How can I be sure that you did know to make Chinese website if you site is not showing up properly on my browser? I of course have a answer for her that I can have the site set to gb or big5, but to unknown audiences, you can't suggest them to switch to NN or FF, not to mention that OS 9 user has limited choice when it comes to browser. I personally know 5 people that uses Mac, their OS are 8.6 to 9.2, two of them actually have the first flat panel iMac that shipped with OS X but 9.2 by default. They did not know they can turn the OS X on. All these people are IE 5.2 users. I believe there are many more like them out there. That was the reason I make a suggestion to Lachlan that if his client cares the Chinese audience, perhaps a gb/big 5 page is more important than 'using the utf-8 whenever you can'. tee Subject: RE: [WSG] I18n - Traditional Simplified Chinese in an English web site I've been meaning for some time to write an article about this for the W3C i18n site but not yet found the time. I'll have to try harder. To help, here are some brief suggestions, based on the assumptions that you are linking to translations (rather than different country sites), and have enough space on the user interface to list all alternatives. (Disclaimer: These are quickly written stream-of-consciousness notes that haven't been reviewed.) - use the name of the target language in the native language and script as the link, eg. 'French' would be written 'franais' (note, beware of different capitalisation conventions) -use a graphic if you are concerned about users not having the appropriate font/rendering capability for the language you are showing (note that these will never be translated, so the usual translatability issue about text in graphics is mute) (note also that the person who speaks the language linked to will usually have the necessary fonts etc., so this is more of a cosmetic issue)(Of course, it is
Re: [WSG] I18n - Traditional Simplified Chinese in an English web site
On 12 Apr 2005 at 11:10, tee wrote: despite the fact that I know very well Mac' IE 5.2 (which still have significant users) has poor support of unicode Chinese - some character are missing, some got cut of. Hi tee, one question: Does that 'old Mac IE5.2' shows the missing characters if they are coded with entities (#x...)? Thanks, Juergen Auer http://www.sql-und-xml.de/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Automated accessibility testers
I've never tried testing my code for accessibility before but I'm becoming more interested in the topic.After some web-research, I've found a mountian ofinformation/guidelines/priority checkpoints (etc., etc.) to wade through and consider. My eyes are glazing over. First question: Is there a site anywhere that can tell me (clearly and concisely) something like: To achieve section 508 compliance you have to: 1) do this, 2) do that, 3) do the other thing. Most of the stuff I've seen is very heavy on reasons, but somewhat light on the "you just need to include this, in this way" type of information. -- Second question: Just as a test, I ran one of my pages through a site called the Cynthia Says Portal(http://www.contentquality.com/Default.asp) According to the Section 508 report option (as well as the WCAG - Priority 1,2,3 option)the pages I submitted to the validator all "passed" according to the validator's result list. Well, that made me smile - but also wonder at the same time. Are these kind of sites a reliable way to verfiy code for Accessibility for Section 508 and/or WCAG Checkpoints? Like, if a client were to say to me "Is the site 508 compliant?" can I say, "well, yeah, the Cynthia Says portal reported that it was. Good enough for me." Well, IS THAT GOOD ENOUGH? Is there a better on-line validator I should be running my pages through vs Cynthia Says? Since I've become interested in this issue , I want to start off on the right foot in order to make sure these automated, web-based results are telling mewhat I need to hear. Bottom line is that I guess it'ss hard for me to believed that I've "aced-it" on the first time out. Any and all input greatly appreciated. Cole Kuryakin Subic Bay, Philippines
RE: [WSG] Background image in the mast head...
I trust you saw the light bulb glowing all the way from Wyoming!
Deeply appreciate the detailed breakdown and explanation of the process.
#dss#
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of russ - maxdesign
Sent: Tue 4/12/2005 7:35 PM
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: Re: [WSG] Background image in the mast head...
OK, you have an image set in the div as a background, but you want it to
act, to all intents, like a link.
The first thing to do is make the link area the same size as the background
image. This is achieved by converting the a element to a block (display:
block) and then giving it a width and height.
div id=masthead
a href=http://mysite.com;/a
/div
a { display: block; width: 750px; height: 100px; }
Now you have a background image and a link that is the same size.
The problem is that there is nothing inside the link. It is much better to
put content in there. Even more important, this content will be beneficial -
it can be used for print css and as a description for screen readers etc.
So, the next thing to do is place the text inside the a element
div id=masthead
a href=http://mysite.com;My Site/a
/div
The problem is now that this text will sit over the top of your background
image. Probably a very undesirable outcome.
So, you want to move this link text off the page, just for modern browsers
that support css. You do not want to use display: none as this has a
negative impact on screen readers - who may not register this text at all.
A solution is to wrap a span around this link content and then position it
off the page. Some still argue that this is not a good idea. If you choose
to do this option, a good method is position:absolute.
It moves just the span wrapped content off the page - leaving the link still
in position at the same size as the backgrounds image. If you set the span
to left: -500px, it will take the span and its content 500px to the left -
off the page.
You should then set a width of 500px so that if the content grows massively
it will not poke back in the left side of the page. This could occur if a
user set their own large font sizes.
Again, this is only one method, and it has downsides as well as upsides.
Does all that make sense? Apologies if not - written in a rush between
meetings.
HTH
Russ
As a newbie to CSS, I do not know what this does:
#masthead span { position: absolute; left: -500px; width: 500px; }
Would appreciate your explanation - thanks!
#DSS#
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
winmail.dat
[WSG] link one style sheet from another
Is it ever helpful to link one style sheet from another using @ import? I didnt know this worked until i did it by accident the other day. -Kevin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] link one style sheet from another
Very often helpful, it saves duplication of style declarations for reusable elements. Take for example a screen and print style guide. In general the typographic and colour styles remain unchanged, and layout changes for print styles. If each is placed in it's own file then you only need to create two files that import the relevant style selections. Regards Scott Swabey General Manager Lafinboy Productions :: website design :: website development :: graphic design e [EMAIL PROTECTED] t +61 (0)415 193 126 w www.lafinboy.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kvnmcwebn Sent: Wednesday, 13 April 2005 10:07 AM To: wsg Subject: [WSG] link one style sheet from another Is it ever helpful to link one style sheet from another using @ import? I didnt know this worked until i did it by accident the other day. -Kevin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] I18n - Traditional Simplified Chinese in an English web site
On 13 Apr 2005, at 6:16 pm, Richard Ishida wrote: Hello tee, Thanks for your explanation of the Chinese problems for Mac IE users. I'd be really grateful if you could point me to concrete examples of these problems. Let me note that my understanding is that the majority of Chinese characters display fine. My guess would be that the characters required to display link text saying Traditional Chinese or Simplified Chinese in Chinese would also work fine - please confirm, if you can. Wrt my suggestions, note that I said use utf-8 'if you can'. (Note also that much of the time we will be referring to use of utf-8 on pages that point to Chinese pages, rather than pages that are in Chinese, so this would not always be an issue.) I'd really like to get better quantification of the size of the problem. If you can help me there I'd be v grateful. Also, there's the difficult problem of whether we should care about people who use outdated technology. I don't think there's a good answer to that. On the other hand, user agents are free so for issues centring on *them* I'm reluctant to relieve the pressure on people to upgrade. OS issues may be slightly more problematic, but I still hope people can be encouraged to move on where possible. The Web will never move forward if we throw up our hands and always design to the lowest common denominator. But that's another topic, and not one for which there's an easy answer... Based on my experience with other East-Asian languages (Japanese and Korean), IE Mac -including the version running on OS X - does have some problems with those languages, be it UTF-8 or other encoding. The problem is worse on OS 9. For all 3 CJK, the OS lacks support for some of the more complex characters. Encoding those characters with entities does usually work fine for Japanese (Shift_JIS or Unicode), I still had some problems with Korean though (EUC-kr). Due to very small marketshare for that browser in Korea, I didn't pursue the matter. A Chinese friend confirms that this also works for Traditional Chinese. A second problem, frequent with Unicode, happens when the native language at OS level, doesn't match the language of the page. A little tidbit is referenced here: http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/misc/#encoding One thing to do is making sure that the **server** is sending the correct headers for the character encoding (.htaccess or httpd.conf on Apache), and not relying at all on the meta tag. This has fixed multiple problems with characters on my side. And third, to avoid problems with 'broken characters' - make sure not to use Windows Office characters (the nightmare of my job). Mac Office will read them, IE Mac and any other browser, will have problems (typical for Japanese: bullets and round numbered characters). Also, make sure that a correct font is set in the stylesheet. Finally, when coding sites for local audiences, using Shift_jis, EUC-KR, ... is really appropriate. I code all my commercial sites in shift_jis. This provides less hassle, esp when dealing with forms and cgi scripts. Philippe ---/--- Philippe Wittenbergh now live : http://emps.l-c-n.com/ code | design | web projects : http://www.l-c-n.com/ IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] link one style sheet from another
Kvnmcwebn wrote: Is it ever helpful to link one style sheet from another using @ import? It may save you from having to link in additional stylesheets from each of maybe a hundred pages or more. It really depends on how you organize your stylesheets and your sites. I always @import extra stylesheets into the main stylesheet, and it sure ease maintenance. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] link one style sheet from another
Is there an advantage over linking them all in the html doc, or is it just personal preference? Thanks -Kvnmcwebn ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] web design presentation: advice?
On 13 Apr 2005, at 1:16 PM, Zulema wrote: ps: butterflies in my stomach means that my tummy gets grumbly as if I'm hungry but it's from being nervous; it's a common saying in the States. As far as it being an in-code joke? No, at least i don't think so :-p Uh - I know... but your original post had a typo: butterFILES. Code... HTML... Files... Geddit? ;-) Sorry, I should cease these feeble attempts at humour... (oh - sorry again, that's humor.) N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Automated accessibility testers
Cole, This is my first time to reply to anything on the list, so I hope I am doing it correctly:) I recommend Constructing Accessible Web Sites published by glasshaus. This book focuses on the Section 508 Standards and the WAI, but filters all the legalese. It also gives code examples and application examples. I'm about half-way through it right now, and it has made a huge difference in the way I write code. Shane Lubbock, TX I've never tried testing my code for accessibility before but I'm becoming more interested in the topic. After some web-research, I've found a mountian of information/guidelines/priority checkpoints (etc., etc.) to wade through and consider. My eyes are glazing over. First question: Is there a site anywhere that can tell me (clearly and concisely) something like: To achieve section 508 compliance you have to: 1) do this, 2) do that, 3) do the other thing. Most of the stuff I've seen is very heavy on reasons, but somewhat light on the you just need to include this, in this way type of information. -- Second question: Just as a test, I ran one of my pages through a site called the Cynthia Says Portal (http://www.contentquality.com/Default.asp) According to the Section 508 report option (as well as the WCAG - Priority 1,2,3 option) the pages I submitted to the validator all passed according to the validator's result list. Well, that made me smile - but also wonder at the same time. Are these kind of sites a reliable way to verfiy code for Accessibility for Section 508 and/or WCAG Checkpoints? Like, if a client were to say to me Is the site 508 compliant? can I say, well, yeah, the Cynthia Says portal reported that it was. Good enough for me. Well, IS THAT GOOD ENOUGH? Is there a better on-line validator I should be running my pages through vs Cynthia Says? Since I've become interested in this issue , I want to start off on the right foot in order to make sure these automated, web-based results are telling me what I need to hear. Bottom line is that I guess it'ss hard for me to believed that I've aced-it on the first time out. Any and all input greatly appreciated. Cole Kuryakin Subic Bay, Philippines ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Re: Automated accessibility testers
I am working on a site for web standards, it will include articles and the such. Contact me on my main e-mail ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) if you are interested. Thanks. On 4/13/05, Shane Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Cole, This is my first time to reply to anything on the list, so I hope I am doing it correctly:) I recommend Constructing Accessible Web Sites published by glasshaus. This book focuses on the Section 508 Standards and the WAI, but filters all the legalese. It also gives code examples and application examples. I'm about half-way through it right now, and it has made a huge difference in the way I write code. Shane Lubbock, TX I've never tried testing my code for accessibility before but I'm becoming more interested in the topic. After some web-research, I've found a mountian of information/guidelines/priority checkpoints (etc., etc.) to wade through and consider. My eyes are glazing over. First question: Is there a site anywhere that can tell me (clearly and concisely) something like: To achieve section 508 compliance you have to: 1) do this, 2) do that, 3) do the other thing. Most of the stuff I've seen is very heavy on reasons, but somewhat light on the you just need to include this, in this way type of information. -- Second question: Just as a test, I ran one of my pages through a site called the Cynthia Says Portal (http://www.contentquality.com/Default.asp) According to the Section 508 report option (as well as the WCAG - Priority 1,2,3 option) the pages I submitted to the validator all passed according to the validator's result list. Well, that made me smile - but also wonder at the same time. Are these kind of sites a reliable way to verfiy code for Accessibility for Section 508 and/or WCAG Checkpoints? Like, if a client were to say to me Is the site 508 compliant? can I say, well, yeah, the Cynthia Says portal reported that it was. Good enough for me. Well, IS THAT GOOD ENOUGH? Is there a better on-line validator I should be running my pages through vs Cynthia Says? Since I've become interested in this issue , I want to start off on the right foot in order to make sure these automated, web-based results are telling me what I need to hear. Bottom line is that I guess it'ss hard for me to believed that I've aced-it on the first time out. Any and all input greatly appreciated. Cole Kuryakin Subic Bay, Philippines ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Anthony Timberlake Co-Owner of StaticHost Internet Services - http://www.statichost.co.uk Head Director at Spike Radio - http://www.spikeradio.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Automated accessibility testers
Thanks Shane. I'll give it a look - Getting specific books from local bookstores here (in the philipines) can be a real challenge, but I'll see if I can source the one you've recommended. After you do a site (or during) do you validate your code against one of these Accessibility web sites I mentioned? Cole - Original Message - From: Shane Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 10:02 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Automated accessibility testers Cole, This is my first time to reply to anything on the list, so I hope I am doing it correctly:) I recommend Constructing Accessible Web Sites published by glasshaus. This book focuses on the Section 508 Standards and the WAI, but filters all the legalese. It also gives code examples and application examples. I'm about half-way through it right now, and it has made a huge difference in the way I write code. Shane Lubbock, TX I've never tried testing my code for accessibility before but I'm becoming more interested in the topic. After some web-research, I've found a mountian of information/guidelines/priority checkpoints (etc., etc.) to wade through and consider. My eyes are glazing over. First question: Is there a site anywhere that can tell me (clearly and concisely) something like: To achieve section 508 compliance you have to: 1) do this, 2) do that, 3) do the other thing. Most of the stuff I've seen is very heavy on reasons, but somewhat light on the you just need to include this, in this way type of information. -- Second question: Just as a test, I ran one of my pages through a site called the Cynthia Says Portal (http://www.contentquality.com/Default.asp) According to the Section 508 report option (as well as the WCAG - Priority 1,2,3 option) the pages I submitted to the validator all passed according to the validator's result list. Well, that made me smile - but also wonder at the same time. Are these kind of sites a reliable way to verfiy code for Accessibility for Section 508 and/or WCAG Checkpoints? Like, if a client were to say to me Is the site 508 compliant? can I say, well, yeah, the Cynthia Says portal reported that it was. Good enough for me. Well, IS THAT GOOD ENOUGH? Is there a better on-line validator I should be running my pages through vs Cynthia Says? Since I've become interested in this issue , I want to start off on the right foot in order to make sure these automated, web-based results are telling me what I need to hear. Bottom line is that I guess it'ss hard for me to believed that I've aced-it on the first time out. Any and all input greatly appreciated. Cole Kuryakin Subic Bay, Philippines ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] link one style sheet from another
Kvnmcwebn Is there an advantage over linking them all in the html doc, or is it just personal preference? Using @import hides stylesheets from older browsers such as Netscape 4.x, which do not understand the import syntax. This way you can shield those browsers with flaky CSS 1.0 from your more advanced CSS 2.1 with positioning and such. Also, if you nominally only LINK one stylesheet in your HTML, it gives you the flexibility of adding/removing separate @import-ed stylesheets at a later date without the need for modifying the actual HTML - in line with the idea of separation of content and presentation. Patrick Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Automated accessibility testers
Cole The real trick is to understand what the specification means and why it says what it says. There has always been disputes about the validity of an automated tester saying 'Yes this site is compliant'. You can code a terrible page that will pass an automated test. It is important to code in the spirit and intent of the specification and not necessarily to the word of the specification. Online validators are a tool to help you get there. I do use an automated tester, but not very often. I am familiar enough with the specs that I do not need to. As the page near completion I will run a validator to fix a few probs. I have friends in Iriga - visit Iriga Joe Motors. =)On 4/13/05, Cole Kuryakin - x7m [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Shane. I'll give it a look - Getting specific books from localbookstores here (in the philipines) can be a real challenge, but I'll see if I can source the one you've recommended.After you do a site (or during) do you validate your code against one ofthese Accessibility web sites I mentioned?Cole -- __Bugs are, by definition, necessary. Just ask Microsoft!www.co.sauk.wi.us (Work) www.arionshome.com (Personal)www.freexenon.com (Consulting)__Take Back the Web with Mozilla Fire Fox http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/Making a Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standardshttp://www.maccaws.org/Web Standards Project http://www.webstandards.org/Web Standards Grouphttp://www.webstandardsgroup.org/Guild of Accessible Web Designers http://www.gawds.org/
RE: [WSG] Automated accessibility testers
Hi Cole I really cant remember where I got it, but I have a pdf file called Dive into Accessibility that is freely distributable under a GNU Free Documentation license. I found it a brilliant description of the what, why and how of accessibility. If you like I will send you a copy privately. Rowena From: Cole Kuryakin - x7m [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 April 2005 13:02 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Automated accessibility testers I've never tried testing my code for accessibility before but I'm becoming more interested in the topic.After some web-research, I've found a mountian ofinformation/guidelines/priority checkpoints (etc., etc.) to wade through and consider. My eyes are glazing over. First question: Is there a site anywhere that can tell me (clearly and concisely) something like: To achieve section 508 compliance you have to: 1) do this, 2) do that, 3) do the other thing. Most of the stuff I've seen is very heavy on reasons, but somewhat light on the you just need to include this, in this way type of information. -- Second question: Just as a test, I ran one of my pages through a site called the Cynthia Says Portal(http://www.contentquality.com/Default.asp) According to the Section 508 report option (as well as the WCAG - Priority 1,2,3 option)the pages I submitted to the validator all passed according to the validator's result list. Well, that made me smile - but also wonder at the same time. Are these kind of sites a reliable way to verfiy code for Accessibility for Section 508 and/or WCAG Checkpoints? Like, if a client were to say to me Is the site 508 compliant? can I say, well, yeah, the Cynthia Says portal reported that it was. Good enough for me. Well, IS THAT GOOD ENOUGH? Is there a better on-line validator I should be running my pages through vs Cynthia Says? Since I've become interested in this issue , I want to start off on the right foot in order to make sure these automated, web-based results are telling mewhat I need to hear. Bottom line is that I guess it'ss hard for me to believed that I've aced-it on the first time out. Any and all input greatly appreciated. Cole Kuryakin Subic Bay, Philippines
RE: [WSG] Automated accessibility testers
http://www.diveintoaccessibility.org/ -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Rowena PadelSent: 13 April 2005 16:49To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Automated accessibility testers Hi Cole I really cant remember where I got it, but I have a pdf file called Dive into Accessibility that is freely distributable under a GNU Free Documentation license. I found it a brilliant description of the what, why and how of accessibility. If you like I will send you a copy privately. Rowena From: Cole Kuryakin - x7m [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 April 2005 13:02To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Automated accessibility testers I've never tried testing my code for accessibility before but I'm becoming more interested in the topic.After some web-research, I've found a mountian ofinformation/guidelines/priority checkpoints (etc., etc.) to wade through and consider. My eyes are glazing over. First question: Is there a site anywhere that can tell me (clearly and concisely) something like: To achieve section 508 compliance you have to: 1) do this, 2) do that, 3) do the other thing. Most of the stuff I've seen is very heavy on reasons, but somewhat light on the "you just need to include this, in this way" type of information. -- Second question: Just as a test, I ran one of my pages through a site called the Cynthia Says Portal(http://www.contentquality.com/Default.asp) According to the Section 508 report option (as well as the WCAG - Priority 1,2,3 option)the pages I submitted to the validator all "passed" according to the validator's result list. Well, that made me smile - but also wonder at the same time. Are these kind of sites a reliable way to verfiy code for Accessibility for Section 508 and/or WCAG Checkpoints? Like, if a client were to say to me "Is the site 508 compliant?" can I say, "well, yeah, the Cynthia Says portal reported that it was. Good enough for me." Well, IS THAT GOOD ENOUGH? Is there a better on-line validator I should be running my pages through vs Cynthia Says? Since I've become interested in this issue , I want to start off on the right foot in order to make sure these automated, web-based results are telling mewhat I need to hear. Bottom line is that I guess it'ss hard for me to believed that I've "aced-it" on the first time out. Any and all input greatly appreciated. Cole Kuryakin Subic Bay, Philippines
Re: [WSG] Automated accessibility testers
On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:48:46 +0100, Rowena Padel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Cole I really can't remember where I got it, but I have a pdf file called Dive into Accessibility that is freely distributable under a GNU Free Documentation license. I found it a brilliant description of the what, why and how of accessibility. If you like I will send you a copy privately. click click http://diveintoaccessibility.org/ -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Automated accessibility testers
Thats where I got it from then! ;-) From: Patrick Lauke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 April 2005 16:58 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Automated accessibility testers http://www.diveintoaccessibility.org/
Re: [WSG] Automated accessibility testers
I use Firefox's Web Developer's Toolbar Extension which has multiple validators including one for section 508 and one for WAI. I recommend it. Shane Lubbock, TX Thanks Shane. I'll give it a look - Getting specific books from local bookstores here (in the philipines) can be a real challenge, but I'll see if I can source the one you've recommended. After you do a site (or during) do you validate your code against one of these Accessibility web sites I mentioned? Cole - Original Message - From: Shane Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 10:02 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Automated accessibility testers Cole, This is my first time to reply to anything on the list, so I hope I am doing it correctly:) I recommend Constructing Accessible Web Sites published by glasshaus. This book focuses on the Section 508 Standards and the WAI, but filters all the legalese. It also gives code examples and application examples. I'm about half-way through it right now, and it has made a huge difference in the way I write code. Shane Lubbock, TX I've never tried testing my code for accessibility before but I'm becoming more interested in the topic. After some web-research, I've found a mountian of information/guidelines/priority checkpoints (etc., etc.) to wade through and consider. My eyes are glazing over. First question: Is there a site anywhere that can tell me (clearly and concisely) something like: To achieve section 508 compliance you have to: 1) do this, 2) do that, 3) do the other thing. Most of the stuff I've seen is very heavy on reasons, but somewhat light on the you just need to include this, in this way type of information. -- Second question: Just as a test, I ran one of my pages through a site called the Cynthia Says Portal (http://www.contentquality.com/Default.asp) According to the Section 508 report option (as well as the WCAG - Priority 1,2,3 option) the pages I submitted to the validator all passed according to the validator's result list. Well, that made me smile - but also wonder at the same time. Are these kind of sites a reliable way to verfiy code for Accessibility for Section 508 and/or WCAG Checkpoints? Like, if a client were to say to me Is the site 508 compliant? can I say, well, yeah, the Cynthia Says portal reported that it was. Good enough for me. Well, IS THAT GOOD ENOUGH? Is there a better on-line validator I should be running my pages through vs Cynthia Says? Since I've become interested in this issue , I want to start off on the right foot in order to make sure these automated, web-based results are telling me what I need to hear. Bottom line is that I guess it'ss hard for me to believed that I've aced-it on the first time out. Any and all input greatly appreciated. Cole Kuryakin Subic Bay, Philippines ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Automated accessibility testers
Awesome! Thanks for that link! Shane Lubbock, TX http://www.diveintoaccessibility.org/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Rowena Padel Sent: 13 April 2005 16:49 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Automated accessibility testers Hi Cole I really can't remember where I got it, but I have a pdf file called Dive into Accessibility that is freely distributable under a GNU Free Documentation license. I found it a brilliant description of the what, why and how of accessibility. If you like I will send you a copy privately. Rowena _ From: Cole Kuryakin - x7m [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 April 2005 13:02 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Automated accessibility testers I've never tried testing my code for accessibility before but I'm becoming more interested in the topic. After some web-research, I've found a mountian of information/guidelines/priority checkpoints (etc., etc.) to wade through and consider. My eyes are glazing over. First question: Is there a site anywhere that can tell me (clearly and concisely) something like: To achieve section 508 compliance you have to: 1) do this, 2) do that, 3) do the other thing. Most of the stuff I've seen is very heavy on reasons, but somewhat light on the you just need to include this, in this way type of information. -- Second question: Just as a test, I ran one of my pages through a site called the Cynthia Says Portal ( http://www.contentquality.com/Default.asp) According to the Section 508 report option (as well as the WCAG - Priority 1,2,3 option) the pages I submitted to the validator all passed according to the validator's result list. Well, that made me smile - but also wonder at the same time. Are these kind of sites a reliable way to verfiy code for Accessibility for Section 508 and/or WCAG Checkpoints? Like, if a client were to say to me Is the site 508 compliant? can I say, well, yeah, the Cynthia Says portal reported that it was. Good enough for me. Well, IS THAT GOOD ENOUGH? Is there a better on-line validator I should be running my pages through vs Cynthia Says? Since I've become interested in this issue , I want to start off on the right foot in order to make sure these automated, web-based results are telling me what I need to hear. Bottom line is that I guess it'ss hard for me to believed that I've aced-it on the first time out. Any and all input greatly appreciated. Cole Kuryakin Subic Bay, Philippines ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Automated accessibility testers
A few more useful articles/sites: Big, Stark Chunk - article by Joe Clark on how to use CSS to automatically redesign and reorder your Web site for low-vision people http://www.alistapart.com/articles/lowvision/ Building accessible websites http://joeclark.org/book/ (buy the book or read it online) Joe Clark's blog on accessibility http://blog.fawny.org/category/accessibility/ Andy Budd, Design for Accessibility http://www.andybudd.com/presentations/skillswap05/accessibility/ RNID, 10 things you should know about website accessibility http://www.rnidteaser.co.uk/index.html Accessibility from the ground up http://digital-web.com/articles/accessibility_from_the_ground_up/ Accessify http://www.accessify.com/default.asp Accessify forums http://www.accessifyforum.com/ Guidelines for Accessible and Usable Web Sites: Observing Users Who Work With Screen Readers http://redish.net/content/papers/interactions.html WebAIM http://www.webaim.org/ Kornel Lesinski wrote: On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:48:46 +0100, Rowena Padel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Cole I really can't remember where I got it, but I have a pdf file called Dive into Accessibility that is freely distributable under a GNU Free Documentation license. I found it a brilliant description of the what, why and how of accessibility. If you like I will send you a copy privately. click click http://diveintoaccessibility.org/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.6 - Release Date: 11/04/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS issues: Opera's absolute positioning
Thierry Koblentz wrote: You could try to move the UL just before the text box and then use *float* rather than an AP div... I grudgingly did that to work around Opera's bug (just doesn't feel right to have options before the actual input in the document flow...but hey) Also, after attempting in vain to get legend to float in FF nightlies, I gave in and let it do what it pleases, without overlapping the submit button. Annoying, though...even tried giving an ID to the legend, but the forms.css' !important just has the highest specificity... :( After all these changes, how is it looking on Safari / FF/OS X / Camino ? http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/archives/frugal_google/ -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS issues: Opera's absolute positioning
0s 9 comments -for what there worth, in ie5.2 mac- messy overlaps w/radio buttons and text. positioning of google search button isnt right. maybe the backslash hack would do the trick if you feel inclined to support this browser. looks good in mozilla mac os 9 -kvnmcwebn ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Multiple comments to filter non Gecko-based browsers
Hi, I'm trying to use nested comments as a filter for non gecko-based browsers. This is my markup: !-- style type=text/css some rules here /style !-- Gecko-based browsers get it right; they see the nested comment and ignore the inner block. But the Validator gives me a warning about this (multiple comments in comment declaration). The thing that bothers me is that WDG [1] says that !-- hello-- is a legal comment, but my guess is that the Validator would choke on this too. Isn't confusing? [1] http://www.htmlhelp.com/reference/wilbur/misc/comment.html Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] I18n - Traditional Simplified Chinese in an English web site
Thanks for your explanation of the Chinese problems for Mac IE users. I'd be really grateful if you could point me to concrete examples of these problems. Richard, I made a simple example here: http://www.lotusseeds.com/IE_Mac/example.html If it's still not clear enough and you need more examples, please let me know, I'll see what I can do for more testing however it may have to wait till early next month as I'd been so busy with work lately. Let me note that my understanding is that the majority of Chinese characters display fine. Yes, the majority Chinese characters display fine, but again, not in IE 5 Mac with UTF-8 unicode coded. My guess would be that the characters required to display link text saying Traditional Chinese or Simplified Chinese in Chinese would also work fine - please confirm, if you can. Yes, It works fine in Safari and Mozilla; in Firefox it works fine most of the case but I notice a few characters got missing. In IE, it's hopeless and annoying, everything shows in ?, not to mention the texts that do not render well at all. Wrt my suggestions, note that I said use utf-8 'if you can'. (Note also that much of the time we will be referring to use of utf-8 on pages that point to Chinese pages, rather than pages that are in Chinese, so this would not always be an issue.) I'd really like to get better quantification of the size of the problem. If you can help me there I'd be v grateful. As far as my experience concerned, it's a total mess for IE Mac. Also, there's the difficult problem of whether we should care about people who use outdated technology. I don't think there's a good answer to that. I agree with this. However for most web designers, we have too much to consider, our surviving mainly depend on client' interest. And what is the client's interest? We all know. With my own website, I can move forward, use the latest technology but I really don't think I'll have same freedom when working on my client' website. other hand, user agents are free so for issues centring on *them* I'm reluctant to relieve the pressure on people to upgrade. This is not entirely true. OS 9 users have limitation on what browsers they can use. I don't know if some thing goes to Win 98 users. tee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] I18n - Traditional Simplified Chinese in an English web site
one question: Does that 'old Mac IE5.2' shows the missing characters if they are coded with entities (#x...)? Hi Juergen, I do not code with (#x...) entities for unicode Chinese. I did make sure every character is unicode-able. Everything display properly in other browsers except IE 5 Mac. I have no way to find out as all characters are in ? in the source code. You can see example for here: http://www.lotusseeds.com/IE_Mac/example.html When in GB, everything render fine. http://www.lotusseeds.com/gb2312.html tee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] I18n - Traditional Simplified Chinese in an English web site
A second problem, frequent with Unicode, happens when the native language at OS level, doesn't match the language of the page. A little tidbit is referenced here: http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/misc/#encoding One thing to do is making sure that the **server** is sending the correct headers for the character encoding (.htaccess or httpd.conf on Apache), and not relying at all on the meta tag. This has fixed multiple problems with characters on my side. Philippe, Thanks! I will look into it. And third, to avoid problems with 'broken characters' - make sure not to use Windows Office characters (the nightmare of my job). Mac Office will read them, IE Mac and any other browser, will have problems (typical for Japanese: bullets and round numbered characters). Also, make sure that a correct font is set in the stylesheet. The only Microsoft product I have is Entourage. I do not use it for unicode Chinese texts. I think my font is set correctly in my stylesheet. First I didn't use the font-family and CSS validator gave me errors message. Finally, when coding sites for local audiences, using Shift_jis, EUC-KR, ... is really appropriate. I code all my commercial sites in shift_jis. This provides less hassle, esp when dealing with forms and cgi scripts. Shift_JIS and the EUC are for Japanese and Korean with Hanji right? I do not think they cover all Chinese characters. And the are Hanji that are not Chinese characters. tee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Multiple comments to filter non Gecko-based browsers
Hi Thierry I guess the first question would be.. what are you trying to do and is their another solution? Not sure what you mean by filter for non Gecko browsers? Cheers James On 4/14/05, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I'm trying to use nested comments as a filter for non gecko-based browsers. This is my markup: !-- style type=text/css some rules here /style !-- Gecko-based browsers get it right; they see the nested comment and ignore the inner block. But the Validator gives me a warning about this (multiple comments in comment declaration). The thing that bothers me is that WDG [1] says that !-- hello-- is a legal comment, but my guess is that the Validator would choke on this too. Isn't confusing? [1] http://www.htmlhelp.com/reference/wilbur/misc/comment.html Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Multiple comments to filter non Gecko-based browsers
I guess the first question would be.. what are you trying to do and is their another solution? Not sure what you mean by filter for non Gecko browsers? Hi James, I found out that non Gecko-based browsers see the inner block (between the comments), so I can use this markup to feed them without styling elements in FF, etc. Honnestly, I didn't find a real need for that yet, but I'm frustrated with the info I found so far re: multiple comments. It's very inconsistent and I hoped that one of you guys could give me a definitive answer on this. Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility
HI all I have just come across a css tip at http://www.htmldog.com/guides/htmladvanced/links/ which involves a css method to render the 'skip navigation' link invisible. My question is: Does anyone else use this method, or another similar technique? Many sites I have seen *retain this link's visibility* despite it being intended (AFAIK) primarily for screen readers. Thanks Sarah -- XERT Communications email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] office: +61 2 4782 3104 mobile: 0438 017 416 http://www.xert.com.au/ web development : digital imaging : dvd production ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility
It's also useful for users of other assistive technology devices, such as head wands or those with limited mobility, as it reduces the number of 'tabs' a user is required to make to move further down the page. lisa -Original Message- From: Sarah Peeke (XERT) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 14 April 2005 12:12 PM To: WSG Subject: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility HI all I have just come across a css tip at http://www.htmldog.com/guides/htmladvanced/links/ which involves a css method to render the 'skip navigation' link invisible. My question is: Does anyone else use this method, or another similar technique? Many sites I have seen *retain this link's visibility* despite it being intended (AFAIK) primarily for screen readers. Thanks Sarah -- XERT Communications email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] office: +61 2 4782 3104 mobile: 0438 017 416 http://www.xert.com.au/ web development : digital imaging : dvd production ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility
What about users who rely on keyboards but have sight (users with some form of motor skill or mobility deficiency)? Visible skip menus can be very important for these users. A visible skip link allows them to jump over content or navigation (depending on how the site is set up) and possibly avoid having to tab numerous times to get to the content they need. A skip link is the first tab they will hit when they come to a site. Russ HI all I have just come across a css tip at http://www.htmldog.com/guides/htmladvanced/links/ which involves a css method to render the 'skip navigation' link invisible. My question is: Does anyone else use this method, or another similar technique? Many sites I have seen *retain this link's visibility* despite it being intended (AFAIK) primarily for screen readers. Thanks Sarah ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility
Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote: Many sites I have seen *retain this link's visibility* despite it being intended (AFAIK) primarily for screen readers. It also helps people who use tabbing navigation. Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com | ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Actual Page Dimensions
Hi, Is there an article of chart outlining subtractions from design dimensions for browser chrome and optional bars. My current design is 800x600. Intuition begs some appearance of a horizontal and/or vertical scroll bar on some UA. I'm aware these will appear in Browser Cam, but was hoping for a preventative approach. I've goggled, perhaps asking the wrong question. Would some knowledgeable colleague assist? CK __ Knowing is not enough, you must apply; willing is not enough, you must do. ---Bruce Lee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility
On Thu, 14 Apr 2005, russ - maxdesign wrote: What about users who rely on keyboards but have sight (users with some form of motor skill or mobility deficiency)? Visible skip menus can be very important for these users. A visible skip link allows them to jump over content or navigation (depending on how the site is set up) and possibly avoid having to tab numerous times to get to the content they need. A skip link is the first tab they will hit when they come to a site. For a compromise http://www.lionsq3.asn.au the tab key reveals the skip links. -- Regards, | Lions District 201 Q3 Rob Unsworth | IT Internet Chairman Ipswich, Australia| http://www.lionsq3.asn.au - ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility
On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:31:00 +1000, russ - maxdesign wrote: A visible skip link allows them to jump over content or navigation (depending on how the site is set up) and possibly avoid having to tab numerous times to get to the content they need. A skip link is the first tab they will hit when they come to a site. I've seen a couple of sites with a very nice tab interface whereby the 'skip' link became visible on the first tab, but was hidden if that didnt happen. I think Mike Pepper does it at http://www.seowebsitepromotion.com/ (Hi, Mike!) Lea ~ looking for a permanent position in Brisbane. Got anything? -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/ Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web Design Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Actual Page Dimensions
http://www.chunkysoup.net/advanced/bugged/ http://www.evolt.org/article/Design_to_realistic_window_sizes/22/3359/ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/browser-sizes -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Need a Sydney based web standards contractor? You need my services. Recent projects for Glassonion, Freshweb, Cogentis, Ceneka ... http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts http://bookcrossing.com/referral/neerav Chris Kennon wrote: Hi, Is there an article of chart outlining subtractions from design dimensions for browser chrome and optional bars. My current design is 800x600. Intuition begs some appearance of a horizontal and/or vertical scroll bar on some UA. I'm aware these will appear in Browser Cam, but was hoping for a preventative approach. I've goggled, perhaps asking the wrong question. Would some knowledgeable colleague assist? CK ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Actual Page Dimensions[revised]
Hi, Sorry for the double. This is revised Is there an article of chart outlining subtractions from design dimensions for browser chrome and optional bars. My current design is 800x600 for centering horizontally. Intuition begs some appearance of a horizontal and/or vertical scroll bar on some UA. I'm aware these will appear in Browser Cam, but was hoping for a preventative approach. I've goggled, perhaps asking the wrong question. Would some knowledgeable colleague assist? CK __ Knowing is not enough, you must apply; willing is not enough, you must do. ---Bruce Lee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility
Thank you Thierry, Lisa and Russ. Great points - I am new to accessibility, but your replies make great sense. Cheers Sarah :) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility
Hi Rob For a compromise http://www.lionsq3.asn.au the tab key reveals the skip links. I have tried pressing the tab key, but the skip menu does not appear. Am I doing something wrong here? Am using a mac, if that makes any difference. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility
On Thu, 14 Apr 2005, Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote: Hi Rob For a compromise http://www.lionsq3.asn.au the tab key reveals the skip links. I have tried pressing the tab key, but the skip menu does not appear. Am I doing something wrong here? Am using a mac, if that makes any difference. Oh Damn, I guess I will have to make it visible again. I have only tested it on FF, IE6 and IE5. -- Regards, | Lions District 201 Q3 Rob Unsworth | IT Internet Chairman Ipswich, Australia| http://www.lionsq3.asn.au - ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Actual Page Dimensions[revised]
Hi Chris, Is there an article of chart outlining subtractions from design dimensions for browser chrome and optional bars. My current design is 800x600 for centering horizontally. Intuition begs some appearance of a horizontal and/or vertical scroll bar on some UA. I'm aware these will appear in Browser Cam, but was hoping for a preventative approach. I've goggled, perhaps asking the wrong question. Would some knowledgeable colleague assist? We have a minimum available screen size by monitor dimension chart as part of our glossary [1] (as part of an entry on the concepts of above the fold). Our entry includes a 'screen-guide': a background image you can use to resize your browser window to emulate the minimum visible screen size, i.e. assuming all browser elements and systems menubars are displayed. Note that the figures used are based on a Webmonkey article: Sizing up the browsers [2]. Although browsers have changed since 1999-2000 the trend seems to be toward less rather than more chrome, so should still be a useful starting point. [1] http://www.motive.co.nz/glossary/fold.php [2] http://webmonkey.wired.com/webmonkey/99/41/index3a_page2.html?tw=design Cheers, -- Andy Kirkwood Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] JavaScript and escaped quotes
[Maybe a little off-topic but I thought you'd be likely to know]
I have page titles which sometimes require single quotes, i.e. Don't Look Now
The titles also need to appear in a javascript onClick function like this:
a href=foo.htm onclick=myfunction('Don't Look Now')
as you can guess, that breaks the JavaScript because of the quote in Don't
so I escaped the quotes and now I have this:
myfunction('Donapos;t Look Now')
but it still breaks in FireFox, and the JavaScript console comes up
with an error which points to the apos; as if it were a quote:
Error: missing ) after argument list
myfunction('Don't Look Now')
^
anyone got an explanation? Am I missing something obvious? It's the
same if I use #39; instead.
Have You Validated Your Code?
John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 3488
Senior Developer, ABC Online http://www.abc.net.au/
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility
On 14 Apr 2005, at 1:03 pm, Rob Unsworth wrote: For a compromise http://www.lionsq3.asn.au the tab key reveals the skip links. I have tried pressing the tab key, but the skip menu does not appear. Am I doing something wrong here? Am using a mac, if that makes any difference. Oh Damn, I guess I will have to make it visible again. I have only tested it on FF, IE6 and IE5 That one worked fine for me, both with FF nightly and with Safari/OmniWeb. Note for Safari and FF nightly/OS X, to use tabkey to navigate a page, You have to enable full keyboard access in the System Preferences KeyboardMouse. Philippe ---/--- Philippe Wittenbergh now live : http://emps.l-c-n.com/ code | design | web projects : http://www.l-c-n.com/ IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] JavaScript and escaped quotes
You have 3 options:
1. use rsquo; instead of apos;
2. call you function as myfunction('Don\'t Look Now')
3. myfunction(unescape('Don%27t Look Now'))
On 4/14/05, John Horner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[Maybe a little off-topic but I thought you'd be likely to know]
I have page titles which sometimes require single quotes, i.e. Don't Look
Now
The titles also need to appear in a javascript onClick function like this:
a href=foo.htm onclick=myfunction('Don't Look Now')
as you can guess, that breaks the JavaScript because of the quote in Don't
so I escaped the quotes and now I have this:
myfunction('Donapos;t Look Now')
but it still breaks in FireFox, and the JavaScript console comes up
with an error which points to the apos; as if it were a quote:
Error: missing ) after argument list
myfunction('Don't Look Now')
^
anyone got an explanation? Am I missing something obvious? It's the
same if I use #39; instead.
Have You Validated Your Code?
John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 3488
Senior Developer, ABC Online http://www.abc.net.au/
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
--
Best regards,
Dmitry Baranovskiy
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] JavaScript and escaped quotes
Following up on my own post, but I neglected to say, the apostrophe could be escaped, just for JavaScript purposes, like this: 'Don\'t Look Now' but this text is coming out of a CMS, and the same string needs to be used both on the page and in the JavaScript. Have You Validated Your Code? John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 3488 Senior Developer, ABC Online http://www.abc.net.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] JavaScript and escaped quotes
but this text is coming out of a CMS, and the same string needs to be
used both on the page and in the JavaScript.
In this case put body of the function into inline script block - not a
attribute value and use double quotes.
Or another super hack is to put this text into hidden span under the A tag like
a href=foo.htm
onclick=myfunction(this.getElementsByTagName('SPAN')[0].innerHTML)span
class=hiddenDon't Look Now/spanlink text/a
--
Best regards,
Dmitry Baranovskiy
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Re: [WSG] JavaScript and escaped quotes
On Thu, 2005-04-14 at 15:17, John Horner wrote: Following up on my own post, but I neglected to say, the apostrophe could be escaped, just for JavaScript purposes, like this: 'Don\'t Look Now' but this text is coming out of a CMS, and the same string needs to be used both on the page and in the JavaScript. Set the text in a var then use that var in the onclick script var msg=Don't Look Now; /script a href=# onclick=alert(msg)Don't Look Now/abr / script var msg=Don't Stop Now; /script a href=# onclick=alert(msg)Don't Stop Now/abr / Have You Validated Your Code? John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 3488 Senior Developer, ABC Online http://www.abc.net.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Bruce Morrison designIT http://www.designit.com.au ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] JavaScript and escaped quotes
You have 3 options:
1. use rsquo; instead of apos;
2. call you function as myfunction('Don\'t Look Now')
3. myfunction(unescape('Don%27t Look Now'))
Thanks so much Dmitry, I've actually used a combination of the above.
myfunction(escape('Donrsquo;t Look Now'))
and then unescaped it at the other end... I can stop scratching my head now!
Have You Validated Your Code?
John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 3488
Senior Developer, ABC Online http://www.abc.net.au/
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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