Re: [WSG] Accessible, complex forms

[Karl Lurman]

Greg and Steve,

I had the idea of doing something like the following:



Balance is within $credit
limitBalance is within
$More text here



Excuse the inline styling... And make sure that goes in a strict xhtml
1.0 document! or else you will go into quirks under IE.

What that basically does is this:

- Create the text which the input is to appear within.
- Where you want the input, insert a 'spacer' (in this case, a span
tag) that spaces out the text the same width that the input is
- Create a label that is visible only to screen readers. This label
should 'read right' i.e as if it is a label to an actual box
- Create your input
- Move the input back so that appears to be inside the gap made by the 'spacer'
- remove the space (with negative-right margin = to width of input)

Pros:

-Visually, it kind of gives you what you want. Using em values means
that increases of font sizes will still give the same result too.

Cons:

-We now have some extra text before/after the label/input pair, and it
makes even less sense when being read back by a screen reader (or I
would assume)
- Because the em calculations are consistant over all browsers and
font-sizes, sometimes the field overlaps the text.
- BIG PITA: You will have to calculate a lot padding and negative
margin values per input field

Unknown:
- How would this deal with big sentences going over multiple lines?
- What if text appeared in a fluid layout and the wrap occurred before
the input?

Frankly, I think you would be better off ditching the label all
together and hoping for the best with the text description mixed with
inputs.

Thanks for the exercise though, was fun!

Karl

On 5/15/07, Steve Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



This kind of design always causes problems during user testing because a
screen reader user does not know what comes after form controls when they
occur in the middle of a line. In fact they don't even know it's in the
middle of a line.

You are asking them to read the whole sentence then go back to the middle to
enter data in the form. Screen reader users' ability to deal with unusual
constructions like this depends on their experience to a far greater extent
than fully able users. We find that they may be able to hear all the content
but just can't understand what they are supposed to do with it. If this form
control is on its own then they will probably cope but if there are lots
more like it then it becomes increasingly likely they won't. Blind people
don't always 'visualise' things the way you might expect, particularly if
they have been blind from birth.

Invisible labels are fine, but if you really want it to be more accessible,
put the form controls at the end of the sentences.

Steve
 www.testpartners.co.uk
www.accessibility.co.uk



 
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Greg
Sent: 14 May 2007 21:23
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Accessible, complex forms


I have a dilemma that I hope someone can advise me on.  A client wants a
fairly complex form that will have input fields in the middle of a line of
text (think "adlibs"), and then a select box at the end of the line. For
example:

[th]  Alert  ...  [th]  Status or delivery choice
[td]  Balance is within $_  of my credit limit[td]  select
box [email/sms/both]

I hope that example made sense.  The problem we are facing is with screen
readers, and our approach so far has been to create invisible labels with
css.

Is there a more accessible way to make this type of form more accessible?

Thanks in advance,

Greg


http://www.wolkinsphotography.com
http://www.catscape.com






***
List Guidelines:
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe:
http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

***
List Guidelines:
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe:
http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] IE6 problem - more general

[Susie Gardner-Brown]

Sigh ... !!!

Well, apart from that -

Thanks for the link. That looks really useful!

Cheers
susie


On 15/5/07 9:32 AM, "Sam Sherlock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I am like you merely trying to keep a grasp of the situation
> 
> I have glanced over this article today
> http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2007/05/10/70-expert-ideas-for-better-css-codi
> ng/  
>  ing/> 
> 
> featuring some ideas from Rachel Andrews.
> 
> and I hate to be the bearer of bad news but its still not clickable in IE6
> 
> - S
> 
> On 15/05/07, Susie Gardner-Brown < [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  > wrote:
>> Hi there Kepler
>> 
>> Thank you!
>> I believe it's OK now.
>> 
>> I would really like to ask you how you know all this ­ how you keep it in
>> your head?!! Do you have pages and pages of stuff like this written down, or
>> what?!!!
>> 
>> For example: about making nav buttons clickable in IE7: why does the
>> container div need to be 'position: relative" for IE7? And what if there
>> wasn't a container div? Would that make it not work at all?!
>> 
>> I really need to get a handle on how to keep all these things 'known' to me!
>> I've got a quite good book ­ The CSS Anthology, by Rachel Andrews. But it's
>> pre-IE7 ... 
>> 
>> Any thoughts, suggestions would be great!
>> 
>> Thanks again ... :)
>> 
>> - susie
>> 
>> 
>> On 15/5/07 6:37 AM, "Kepler Gelotte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Susan,
>>>  
>>> To make the navigation buttons clickable in IE7 you need to define the
>>> container as position: relative:
>>>  
>>> #container {
>>> position: relative;
>>> }
>>>  
>>> Also the pseudo links should be defined for :link and :visited if you define
>>> It for :hover. Try using these for the navigation definitions:
>>>  
>>> #leftNav a:link, #leftNav a:visited {   /* instead of #leftNav a */
>>>  
>>> #level2nav  a:link, #level2nav a:visited   {/* instead of #level2nav li
>>> a */
>>>  
>>> Regards,
>>> Kepler
>>>  
>>>  
>>> 
>>> ***
>>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>>> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
>>> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> ***
>> 
>> 
>> ***
>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
>> 
>> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> ***
> 
> 
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] IE6 problem - more general

[Sam Sherlock]

Hi,

I am like you merely trying to keep a grasp of the situation

I have glanced over this article today
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2007/05/10/70-expert-ideas-for-better-css-coding/


featuring some ideas from Rachel Andrews.

and I hate to be the bearer of bad news but its still not clickable in IE6

- S

On 15/05/07, Susie Gardner-Brown < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


 Hi there Kepler

Thank you!
I believe it's OK now.

I would really like to ask you how you know all this – how you keep it in
your head?!! Do you have pages and pages of stuff like this written down, or
what?!!!

For example: about making nav buttons clickable in IE7: why does the
container div need to be 'position: relative" for IE7? And what if there
wasn't a container div? Would that make it not work at all?!

I really need to get a handle on how to keep all these things 'known' to
me! I've got a quite good book – The CSS Anthology, by Rachel Andrews. But
it's pre-IE7 ...

Any thoughts, suggestions would be great!

Thanks again ... :)

- susie


On 15/5/07 6:37 AM, "Kepler Gelotte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi Susan,

To make the navigation buttons clickable in IE7 you need to define the
container as position: relative:

#container {
position: relative;
}

Also the pseudo links should be defined for :link and :visited if you
define It for :hover. Try using these for the navigation definitions:

#leftNav a:link, #leftNav a:visited {   /* instead of #leftNav a */

#level2nav  a:link, #level2nav a:visited   {/* instead of #level2nav
li a */

Regards,
Kepler



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] IE6 problem - more general

[Susie Gardner-Brown]

Hi there Kepler

Thank you!
I believe it¹s OK now.

I would really like to ask you how you know all this ­ how you keep it in
your head?!! Do you have pages and pages of stuff like this written down, or
what?!!!

For example: about making nav buttons clickable in IE7: why does the
container div need to be Œposition: relative² for IE7? And what if there
wasn¹t a container div? Would that make it not work at all?!

I really need to get a handle on how to keep all these things Œknown¹ to me!
I¹ve got a quite good book ­ The CSS Anthology, by Rachel Andrews. But it¹s
pre-IE7 ... 

Any thoughts, suggestions would be great!

Thanks again ... :)

- susie


On 15/5/07 6:37 AM, "Kepler Gelotte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi Susan,
>  
> To make the navigation buttons clickable in IE7 you need to define the
> container as position: relative:
>  
> #container {
> position: relative;
> }
>  
> Also the pseudo links should be defined for :link and :visited if you define
> It for :hover. Try using these for the navigation definitions:
>  
> #leftNav a:link, #leftNav a:visited {   /* instead of #leftNav a */
>  
> #level2nav  a:link, #level2nav a:visited   {/* instead of #level2nav li a
> */
>  
> Regards,
> Kepler
>  
>  
> 
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Accessible, complex forms

[Steve Green]

This kind of design always causes problems during user testing because a
screen reader user does not know what comes after form controls when they
occur in the middle of a line. In fact they don't even know it's in the
middle of a line.
 
You are asking them to read the whole sentence then go back to the middle to
enter data in the form. Screen reader users' ability to deal with unusual
constructions like this depends on their experience to a far greater extent
than fully able users. We find that they may be able to hear all the content
but just can't understand what they are supposed to do with it. If this form
control is on its own then they will probably cope but if there are lots
more like it then it becomes increasingly likely they won't. Blind people
don't always 'visualise' things the way you might expect, particularly if
they have been blind from birth.
 
Invisible labels are fine, but if you really want it to be more accessible,
put the form controls at the end of the sentences.
 
Steve
 
www.testpartners.co.uk 
www.accessibility.co.uk
 

  _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Greg
Sent: 14 May 2007 21:23
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Accessible, complex forms


I have a dilemma that I hope someone can advise me on.  A client wants a
fairly complex form that will have input fields in the middle of a line of
text (think "adlibs"), and then a select box at the end of the line. For
example:

[th]  Alert  ...  [th]  Status or delivery choice
[td]  Balance is within $_  of my credit limit[td]  select
box [email/sms/both]

I hope that example made sense.  The problem we are facing is with screen
readers, and our approach so far has been to create invisible labels with
css.

Is there a more accessible way to make this type of form more accessible?

Thanks in advance,

Greg

 
http://www.wolkinsphotography.com 
http://www.catscape.com 







***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
*** 


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] Accessible, complex forms

[Stuart Foulstone]

Hi,

For screenreader accessibility you should use the  tag.



On Mon, May 14, 2007 9:23 pm, Greg wrote:
> I have a dilemma that I hope someone can advise me on.  A client wants a
> fairly complex form that will have input fields in the middle of a line of
> text (think "adlibs"), and then a select box at the end of the line. For
> example:
>
>  [th]  Alert  ...  [th]  Status or delivery choice
>  [td]  Balance is within $_  of my credit limit[td]
> select box [email/sms/both]
>
>  I hope that example made sense.  The problem we are facing is with screen
> readers, and our approach so far has been to create invisible labels with
> css.
>
>  Is there a more accessible way to make this type of form more accessible?
>
>  Thanks in advance,
>
>  Greg
>
>  
>  http://www.wolkinsphotography.com
>  http://www.catscape.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***


-- 
Stuart Foulstone.
http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk
BigEasy Web Design
69 Flockton Court
Rockingham Street
Sheffield
S1 4EB

Tel. 07751 413451


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] Accessible, complex forms

[Mike at Green-Beast.com]

Hello Greg,

If I understand what you're asking, I *think* you could do something like 
this:

Balance is within  of my credit limit 

Then you can style the label to look right by controlling font-size, etc, 
and you could even style that input to look as it does in the email.

input#amt {
  border : 0;
  border-bottom : 1px solid #000;
}

I really don't understand what you're asking for regarding the select at the 
end.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com/



- Original Message - 
From: "Greg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 4:23 PM
Subject: [WSG] Accessible, complex forms


I have a dilemma that I hope someone can advise me on.  A client wants a 
fairly complex form that will have input fields in the middle of a line of 
text (think "adlibs"), and then a select box at the end of the line. For 
example:

[th]  Alert  ...  [th]  Status or delivery choice
[td]  Balance is within $_  of my credit limit[td]  select 
box [email/sms/both]

I hope that example made sense.  The problem we are facing is with screen 
readers, and our approach so far has been to create invisible labels with 
css.

Is there a more accessible way to make this type of form more accessible?

Thanks in advance,

Greg

 
http://www.wolkinsphotography.com
http://www.catscape.com







***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
*** 



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] IE6 problem

[Kepler Gelotte]

Hi Susan,

 

To make the navigation buttons clickable in IE7 you need to define the
container as position: relative:

 

#container {

position: relative;

}

 

Also the pseudo links should be defined for :link and :visited if you define
It for :hover. Try using these for the navigation definitions:

 

#leftNav a:link, #leftNav a:visited {/* instead of #leftNav a */

 

#level2nav  a:link, #level2nav  a:visited   {/* instead of #level2nav li
a  */

 

Regards,

Kepler

 

 



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

[WSG] Accessible, complex forms

[Greg]

I have a dilemma that I hope someone can advise me on.  A client wants a fairly complex form that will have input fields in the middle of a line of text (think "adlibs"), and then a select box at the end of the line. For example:

[th]  Alert  ...  [th]  Status or delivery choice
[td]  Balance is within $_  of my credit limit        [td]  select box [email/sms/both]

I hope that example made sense.  The problem we are facing is with screen readers, and our approach so far has been to create invisible labels with css.

Is there a more accessible way to make this type of form more accessible?

Thanks in advance,

Greg



http://www.wolkinsphotography.com

http://www.catscape.com 






***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***

Re: [WSG] IE6 problem

[Sam Sherlock]

Have just checked. Its not clickable at moment.  I have deleted and cleared
the cache etc.

On 14/05/07, Susie Gardner-Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


 Guys!
You are wonderful!!

I would never have thought of that – and still have no idea why that would
make a difference! I've changed it on the site and it's fine in IE7. If you
want to give it one last look in IE6 that'd be wonderful (but I am sure I
can find someone somewhere here at UQ with IE6 if you can't!)

Thank you so much!!

- susie

On 14/5/07 1:43 PM, "Sam Sherlock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Yep, for me too.

sorry to say.  However other pages are ok.

also removing the image (for me in ie6) gets the first link (and not the
others) working.

and I'd have to say that that has me beat.


and after further investigation

removing the margin-bottom: -10px gets it working

- S

On 14/05/07, *John Faulds* < [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote:

It's not the links on the calendar that don't work - it's the links in the

left nav. Not sure why but it's something to do with the h2 because taking
it out fixes the problem.

On Mon, 14 May 2007 12:58:37 +1000, Sam Sherlock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >
wrote:

> works fine in ff, opera & ie on windows 2000
>
> I click the beige links and get pdf's
>
> - S
>
> On 14/05/07, Susie Gardner-Brown < [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote:
>>
>> OK, I've sorted out the textarea problem!
>>
>> Now it's just the links on the calendar page that aren't clickable ...
>> ?!
>>
>> - susie
>>
>>
>> On 14/5/07 12:04 PM, "Susie Gardner-Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> > Thanks again John. I had to rely on someone else to tell me about IE6

>> and
>> > that's what she said. Obviously something else for her!
>> >
>> > And thanks for your info on my incorrect use of forms (!)
>> >
>> > However ...Now that I've changed the tags, and hopefully aligned the
>> > textareas, something else has cropped up. (Doesn't it always?!)
>> >
>> > Now the last textarea on the form page is aligning right, and try
>> what I
>> may
>> > I can't bring it back. Can you see where I'm doing something wrong?
>> >
>> > And re the links on the calendar page - any thoughts on why they're
>> not
>> > clickable?
>> >
>> > - susie
>> >
>> >
>> > On 14/5/07 11:05 AM, "John Faulds" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I'm not seeing the problems as you describe - the content appears in
>> the
>> >> same place in FF & IE6 on both pages. There are couple of other
>> problems
>> >> in IE6 though: on the form page, your textareas are aligned right
and
>> not
>> >> with the text above them and on the calendar page, none of the links
>> in
>> >> the left nav are clickable.
>> >>
>> >> You're also using legends incorrectly. There should only be one
>> legend
>> per
>> >> fieldset which describes all the fields. The text associated with
>> each
>> >> textarea should be in a  tag instead.
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, 14 May 2007 10:27:46 +1000, Susie Gardner-Brown
>> >> < [EMAIL PROTECTED]  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >
wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Hi again
>> >>>
>> >>> Still on the same website ...
>> >>>
>> >>> Apparently on a couple of pages in IE6, the main content isn't
>> starting
>> >>> till
>> >>> after the end of the leftnav div – ie. Further down the page. It is
>> fine
>> >>> in
>> >>> IE7 and Firefox. And fine on Firefox and Safari on the Mac. The
>> pages
>> >>> concerned have either got a form, or else a large graphic near the
>> top
>> of
>> >>> the content area.
>> >>>
>> >>> Example pages:
>> >>>
>> >>> http://www.tedi.uq.edu.au/CDIP/feedback.html
>> >>> Or
>> >>> http://www.tedi.uq.edu.au/CDIP/calendar/January.html
>> >>>
>> >>> Anyone know what the fix is for this?
>> >>>
>> >>> I wish there was one website where you could go and look up all the

>> >>> individual fixes for things ... I tend to learn things, and then
>> forget
>> >>> them
>> >>> if I don't use them again quickly, so have to keep asking!!
>> >>>
>> >>> Cheers
>> >>> susie
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ***

>> >>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>> >>> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
>> >>> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >>> ***

>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ***
>> > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>> > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
>> > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > ***
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> ***
>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
>> Help

RE: [WSG] Disappearing element in IE

[Kepler Gelotte]

Hi Cole,

I found the CSS that was causing IE problems. It is in the clear class. Try
using this definition instead:

.clear {
CLEAR: both; /* FONT-SIZE: 1px; OVERFLOW: hidden; HEIGHT: 1px */
}

Again fixes the problem in IE7, didn't try it in IE6.

Regards,
Kepler



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] Disappearing element in IE

[Thierry Koblentz]

#bottom_nav {
position: static;
float: right;
margin: -150px 9px 0 0;
height: 196px;
width: 535px;
*width: 570px;
background: url(/resources/5661/assets/images_community/footer.jpg)
no-repeat 0 0;
}


I'd add "display:inline", just to make sure IE doesn't double the right 
margin.


---
Regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com 




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org

[wendy . pang]

I am out of the office until Thurs 17 May. Please contact Corporate
Communication [EMAIL PROTECTED] for any web requirements.


IMPORTANT:

* This transmission is intended for the use of the addressee only and might 
contain sensitive or legally privileged information. If you are NOT the 
intended recipient, you are notified that any use or dissemination of this 
communication is strictly prohibited. If you receive this transmission in 
error, please notify the author immediately by telephone and delete all copies 
of this transmission together with any attachments. 

* The Australian Customs Service DOES NOT AUTHORISE the recipient to further 
disclose this email or its contents without permission of the originator.

* Unsolicited commercial emails MUST NOT be forwarded to the originator of this 
transmission unless prior consent has been given.


***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] Disappearing element in IE

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Cole Kuryakin wrote:

ANYWAY ... I really don't know what's causing the problem ... pretty 
straight forward stuff that I recall accomplishing in other designs.


Nothing is straight forward in IE/win when 'position: absolute' is used
- especially next to floats.

I suggest you change to...

#bottom_nav {
position: static;
float: right;
margin: -150px 9px 0 0;
height: 196px;
width: 535px;
*width: 570px;
background: url(/resources/5661/assets/images_community/footer.jpg)
no-repeat 0 0;
}

...and see if that's close enough for comfort.
I don't have time to go through the stylesheet in details, so the above 
is a complete override.


regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question

[Web Dandy Design]

Hi,

Came across this link: http://www.enablepdf.com/ which might also be useful
in making accessible PDF documents.

I haven't looked into costs etc, just happened across the site while
browsing through The Register.

Kind regards,

Elaine
http://www.webdandy.co.uk
http://www.webdandy-access.com

-Original Message-
From: Web Dandy Design [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 09 May 2007 11:27
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
Subject: RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question

Hi,

A couple of links that maybe useful:
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/pdf_accessibility
http://www.planetpdf.com/search_results.asp?words=accessibility&SearchString
=storepdftoolsforumgeneral

Another option maybe to convert the PDF content to HTML:
http://tinyurl.com/2fema

Kind regards,

Elaine
http://www.webdandy.co.uk 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michael MD
Sent: 09 May 2007 10:30
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question


>  how do you make the pdf accessible???
> 
> 

I guess it probably depends if it has unencrypted text in it... 

some pdf's might only contain images or other stuff...







***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Disappearing element in IE

[Cole Kuryakin]

Stuart and all others -

Yes, the display:inline; was a mistaken left-over from harried efforts to
get this working with IE ... I was throwing the kitchen sink at the problem
... one declaration at a time ... but still couldn't get it to work. It's
out now but still no result. Strange as the css validates with the exception
of the star hack I'm forced to use on this project because I'm not allowed
to use IE CC's to break out browser specific sheets.

ANYWAY ... I really don't know what's causing the problem ... pretty
straight forward stuff that I recall accomplishing in other designs.

Can anyone see what I'm not seeing?

Cole

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 5:35 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Cc: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Disappearing element in IE
Importance: High

Hi,


Given that you are using absolute positioning for #bottom_nav, I don't
quite get why your using display:inline in the CSS after it.  What happens
if you remove it from #bottom_nav?  As in,


#bottom_nav {
text-align: right;
position: absolute;
right: 9px;
bottom: 0px;

 /*   display: inline; */
height: 196px;
width: 535px;
  *width: 550px;

background: url(/resources/5661/assets/images_community/footer.jpg)
no-repeat 0 0;
}



On Mon, May 14, 2007 12:12 am, Cole Kuryakin wrote:
> Hello Kepler -
>
> Thanks for your tip; unfortunately since this is a hard-wired blogging
> system, the HTML cannot be changed so I cannot implement an HTML-based
> fix.
> Just to see if you were right (about display:inline; pushing the content
> to
> the right of the wrapper) I did re-set my screen resolution to 1600 and I
> didn't see it either.
>
> If I float the UL, the footer graphic and links do appear in both IE and
> FF
> so I know it has something to do with the absolute positioning of this
> element -- but I just don't know how to fix it for IE.
>
> I'm starting to get the "shakes" that this one issue is going to hose the
> entire design.
>
> Anyone else have any ideas to fix this via the CSS? Please???
>
> Thanks in advance as always!
>
> Cole
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Kepler Gelotte
> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 1:06 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: RE: [WSG] Disappearing element in IE
>
>> If anyone would like to see it live, go here:
>> http://teratest.terapad.com.
>>
>> Make sure to look in FF first to observe the required specification;
>> then
> in
>> IE 6 or 7.
>>
>> Thanks to all in advance for their help!
>
> Hi Cole,
>
> Your CSS looks Ok. What I believe is happening is that since the
> #bottom_nav
> container overlaps the #content_wrapper above it and the fact that you
> specified #bottom_nav as display:inline, IE puts the content to the right
> of
> #content_wrapper. By adding a break to your HTML will tell IE to place the
> next element below instead of next to. Here is the section of HTML with
> the
> break added:
>
> 
> 
> 
>
> I only tested in IE7, don't know if it will behave in IE6.
>
> Regards,
> Kepler Gelotte
> http://www.neighborwebmaster.com
>
>
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>
>


-- 
Stuart Foulstone.
http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk
BigEasy Web Design
69 Flockton Court
Rockingham Street
Sheffield
S1 4EB

Tel. 07751 413451


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Disappearing element in IE

[Stuart Foulstone]

Hi,


Given that you are using absolute positioning for #bottom_nav, I don't
quite get why your using display:inline in the CSS after it.  What happens
if you remove it from #bottom_nav?  As in,


#bottom_nav {
text-align: right;
position: absolute;
right: 9px;
bottom: 0px;

 /*   display: inline; */
height: 196px;
width: 535px;
  *width: 550px;

background: url(/resources/5661/assets/images_community/footer.jpg)
no-repeat 0 0;
}



On Mon, May 14, 2007 12:12 am, Cole Kuryakin wrote:
> Hello Kepler -
>
> Thanks for your tip; unfortunately since this is a hard-wired blogging
> system, the HTML cannot be changed so I cannot implement an HTML-based
> fix.
> Just to see if you were right (about display:inline; pushing the content
> to
> the right of the wrapper) I did re-set my screen resolution to 1600 and I
> didn't see it either.
>
> If I float the UL, the footer graphic and links do appear in both IE and
> FF
> so I know it has something to do with the absolute positioning of this
> element -- but I just don't know how to fix it for IE.
>
> I'm starting to get the "shakes" that this one issue is going to hose the
> entire design.
>
> Anyone else have any ideas to fix this via the CSS? Please???
>
> Thanks in advance as always!
>
> Cole
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Kepler Gelotte
> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 1:06 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: RE: [WSG] Disappearing element in IE
>
>> If anyone would like to see it live, go here:
>> http://teratest.terapad.com.
>>
>> Make sure to look in FF first to observe the required specification;
>> then
> in
>> IE 6 or 7.
>>
>> Thanks to all in advance for their help!
>
> Hi Cole,
>
> Your CSS looks Ok. What I believe is happening is that since the
> #bottom_nav
> container overlaps the #content_wrapper above it and the fact that you
> specified #bottom_nav as display:inline, IE puts the content to the right
> of
> #content_wrapper. By adding a break to your HTML will tell IE to place the
> next element below instead of next to. Here is the section of HTML with
> the
> break added:
>
> 
> 
> 
>
> I only tested in IE7, don't know if it will behave in IE6.
>
> Regards,
> Kepler Gelotte
> http://www.neighborwebmaster.com
>
>
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>
>


-- 
Stuart Foulstone.
http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk
BigEasy Web Design
69 Flockton Court
Rockingham Street
Sheffield
S1 4EB

Tel. 07751 413451


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] Wikipedia article help wanted

[liorean]

On 13/05/07, Keryx Web <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

A few months ago I started this article on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines_%28ECMAScript%29

However, my wife has got ill and received a heart transplant, so my time
and energy for Wikipedia articles are somewhat lacking. If some of you
could find it in their hearts to help bring the article to maturity it
would be great. I hate to leave it unfinished.


Doing what I can on that already, making a suite of test cases for the
standards library purely based on the ECMA-262 3ed spec. (I don't
trust any standards support table for ECMAScript that I've been able
to find. None of them have nearly enough tests to cover the full
functionality of complex functions like Array.prototype.splice and
ilk.  For example, Array.prototype.push is broken in a minor way in
all current engines, in a way that can crash at least all Gecko based
browsers.)
Since wikipedia doesn't deal with original research I'll be hosting
that testsuite on my own domain. However, making tests for every
ECMAScript standard library property isn't fast work, especially since
I want the test suite to have zero false positives.

I've also been doing some work on trying to present syntax-semantics
in a way that lends itself to a SUCCESS/FAILURE/CRASH/PEG result on
each feature, but that's trickier...



If anyone is interested in helping me writing test cases for that
testsuite, just send me a mail.
--
David "liorean" Andersson


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***