Re: [WSG] XHTML Standard question

[Ben Buchanan]

So exactly what behavior is mandated for UAs implementing HTML5 if
> a form is submitted with a 'required' element unsatisfied?

If I'm reading 
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#required0correctly,
the form just won't submit if a "required" field is empty. Not
sure about the UI feedback and so on, although looking at
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#form-submission I think
the onus will be on the developer to handle error feedback (ie. same as
now).

cheers,

Ben

-- 
--- 
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson


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Re: [WSG] XHTML Standard question

[Hassan Schroeder]

Ben Buchanan wrote:


Looking to the future, HTML5 is introducing a simple "required" attribute:

"The new required attribute applies to input (except when the type 
attribute is hidden, image or some button type such as submit) and 
textarea. It indicates that the user has to fill in a value in order to 
submit the form." [http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/#new-attributes]


Obviously that just requires *something* to be entered and doesn't 
validate the actual input; but it will still make life easier. 


So exactly what behavior is mandated for UAs implementing HTML5 if
a form is submitted with a 'required' element unsatisfied?

--
Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-621-3445   === http://webtuitive.com

  dream.  code.


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Re: [WSG] XHTML Standard question

[Ben Buchanan]

>
> Therefore, I was wondering if it would be feasible to include a standard
> that would use a syntax similar (does not actually *have* to be this way)
> to selected="selected"? In which case, the syntax would be
> required="required". Or, if it is an email input (i.e. Your e-mail
> address:).

The stats you quoted do seem quite high - I'd be interested to see the full
questions etc to see if there was some further context. Anyway, that
aside...

I would suggest that you follow the hijax approach and build your form with
server-side validation to back up js validation (eg. if you're using PHP, Y
Validate might be suitable for you
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/javascript-just-not-validation/).

Looking to the future, HTML5 is introducing a simple "required" attribute:

"The new required attribute applies to input (except when the type attribute
is hidden, image or some button type such as submit) and textarea. It
indicates that the user has to fill in a value in order to submit the form."
[http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/#new-attributes]

Obviously that just requires *something* to be entered and doesn't validate
the actual input; but it will still make life easier. Plus, of course, being
HTML5 it could be quite some time before we see a level of browser
implementation that would let us go ahead and use it. But it's good to know
it's in the plan :)

cheers,

Ben

-- 
--- 
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson


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Re: [WSG] XHTML Standard question

[Luke Hoggett]

Hi,

What was the poll and are the results publicly available?

There is a difference in asking if a user would like to have javascript 
turned off and them actually having it turned off, check: 
http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2008/November/javas.php only 6% have it 
off, and many of these will be down to their browser not supporting js 
(phones and older browsers).


You do use server side validation on all forms, in addition to any js... 
right?


cheers
Luke

Brett Patterson wrote:
I know that most, if not possible to say all, Web page designers use 
JavaScript for form validation. During a recent poll done by a few 
local colleges, 41.2% of the people who responded stated that they 
would rather not have to enable JavaScript, but on rare occasion they 
do for certain sites that require JS for use of their forms to buy or 
sign up for something. After reading this, I did some research, and 
could not find any tag attributes for form elements that would not 
require the use JS for form validation.


Therefore, I was wondering if it would be feasible to include a 
standard that would use a syntax similar (does not actually *have* to 
be this way) to selected="selected"? In which case, the syntax would 
be required="required". Or, if it is an email input (i.e. Your e-mail 
address:).


--
Brett P.

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Re: [WSG] XHTML Standard question

[Brett Patterson]

OK. I had forgotten you could use server-side validation. Thanks.

On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 6:52 PM, Anthony Ziebell <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Remember to use server side validation and you don't need to worry about
> rewriting standards :)
>
>
> Brett Patterson wrote:
>
> I know that most, if not possible to say all, Web page designers use
> JavaScript for form validation. During a recent poll done by a few local
> colleges, 41.2% of the people who responded stated that they would rather
> not have to enable JavaScript, but on rare occasion they do for certain
> sites that require JS for use of their forms to buy or sign up for
> something. After reading this, I did some research, and could not find any
> tag attributes for form elements that would not require the use JS for form
> validation.
>
> Therefore, I was wondering if it would be feasible to include a standard
> that would use a syntax similar (does not actually *have* to be this way)
> to selected="selected"? In which case, the syntax would be
> required="required". Or, if it is an email input (i.e. Your e-mail
> address:).
>
> --
> Brett P.
>
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-- 
Brett P.


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Re: [WSG] XHTML Standard question

[Anthony Ziebell]

Remember to use server side validation and you don't
need to worry about rewriting standards :)

Brett Patterson wrote:
I
know that most, if not possible to say all, Web page designers use
_javascript_ for form validation. During a recent poll done by a few
local colleges, 41.2% of the people who responded stated that they
would rather not have to enable _javascript_, but on rare occasion they
do for certain sites that require JS for use of their forms to buy or
sign up for something. After reading this, I did some research, and
could not find any tag attributes for form elements that would not
require the use JS for form validation.
  
Therefore, I was wondering if it would be feasible to include a
standard that would use a syntax similar (does not actually have
to be this way) to selected="selected"? In which case, the syntax would
be required="required". Or, if it is an email input (i.e. Your e-mail
address:).
  
-- 
Brett P.
  
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[WSG] XHTML Standard question

[Brett Patterson]

I know that most, if not possible to say all, Web page designers use
JavaScript for form validation. During a recent poll done by a few local
colleges, 41.2% of the people who responded stated that they would rather
not have to enable JavaScript, but on rare occasion they do for certain
sites that require JS for use of their forms to buy or sign up for
something. After reading this, I did some research, and could not find any
tag attributes for form elements that would not require the use JS for form
validation.

Therefore, I was wondering if it would be feasible to include a standard
that would use a syntax similar (does not actually *have* to be this way) to
selected="selected"? In which case, the syntax would be required="required".
Or, if it is an email input (i.e. Your e-mail address:).

-- 
Brett P.


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[WSG] Holly Stanton is out of the office.

[Holly . Stanton]

I will be out of the office starting  20/11/2008 and will not return until
21/11/2008.

I will respond to your message when I return on Friday. If the matter is
urgent please contact Vera Rourke on 19871.


*
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Victoria, Victoria, Australia.
This e-mail and any attachments may contain privileged and confidential 
information.   If you are not the intended recipient, you may not distribute 
reproduce this e-mail  the attachments.   If you have received this message in 
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Re: [WSG] Tools or analytics to detect assistive devices

[James Jeffery]

Install the web accessibility toolbar for Firefox, that will help you out.

I am doing alot of testing at the moment for a site I am developing. I use
Cynthia Says, TAW, WebAIM WAVE  to name a few.

James

On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 4:49 PM, McLaughlin, Gail
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

>  I'm wondering if anybody here knows of a way to use analytics data to
> help determine a good guess or idea of which users are using screen readers
> to access data, or having trouble with certain pages (thus making the case
> for doing usability and accessibility exercises)?
>
> Thanks,
> Gail
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Re: [WSG] Strange character encoding issue

[James Jeffery]

Tim,

Yes that is a common problem. Usually I would fix that, but seen as I have
about 3 hours to get this tested and handed in I think I will leave it. I'll
just underline the links :) Thanks for the complement on the design and the
fact you spotted the usability issue. Much appreciated.

James

On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 5:09 PM, Tim Offenstein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Never had a problem with character encodings on web pages, but since I
> reinstalled the OS on my iMac I have had an issue.
>
> Some of my characters, especially when using ' seem to mess up. This is the
> page, content and layout are simple as it's for a uni assignment:
> http://mi-linux.wlv.ac.uk/~0802390/overview.html
>
> Check out the overview.html page, and notice the issues. There is one
> noticeable in the overview page "⤗SOAP⤠"
>
> Any ideas?
>  (for those interested I do plan to publish a website regarding the
> Semantic Web shortly).
>
> James,
>
> Running your page through the W3 Validator (validator.w3.org) gives the
> following response:
>
>  Error line 5 7 , C o l u m n 2 0 : n o n S G M L c h a r a c t e r n u m b
> e r 1 4 5 .
>   t h e k e y w o r d ë S O A P í i n a s e a r c h e n g i n e w i l l r
> e t u r n r e s u l t s
>   You have used an illegal character in your text. HTML uses the standard
> UNICODE Consortium (http://www.unicode.org/) character repertoire, and it
> leaves undefined (among others) 65 character codes (0 to 31 inclusive and
> 127 to 159 inclusive) that are sometimes used for typographical quote marks
> and similar in proprietary character sets. The validator has found one of
> these undefined characters in your document. The character may appear on
> your browser as a curly quote, or a trademark symbol, or some other fancy
> glyph; on a different computer, however, it will likely appear as a
> completely different character, or nothing at all.
>
> Your best bet is to replace the character with the nearest equivalent ASCII
> character, or to use an appropriate character entity (
> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/latin1.html).
>
> For more information on Character Encoding on the web, see Alan Flavell's
> excellent  HTML Character Set Issues reference (
> http://web.archive.org/web/20060425191748/ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flave
> ll/charset/).
>
> End of quote.
>
> I always recommend people use UTF-8 because it's a much larger character
> set than ISO-8859-1. I also recommend use of XHTML Transitional rather than
> HTML DTD's.
>
> On a side note, I like your page, very attractive. But I found the 1, 2, 3,
> ... buttons at the top confusing because I kept trying to click the number.
> Then I tried clicking the blue text, both of which produced nothing. Finally
> my cursor wandered over the black text and I realized it was the link.
> Perhaps underlining that link or making it dynamic like the button would
> prevent the confusion I encountered. On the other hand, perhaps I just need
> another cup of coffee!
>
> Peace,
>
> -Tim
>
>
>
> --
>
> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
>Tim Offenstein  ***  Campus Accessibility Liaison  ***  (217)
> 244-2700
> CITES Departmental Services  ***  www.uiuc.edu/goto/offenstein
> 
>
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Re: [WSG] Strange character encoding issue

[Tim Offenstein]

Never had a problem with character encodings on 
web pages, but since I reinstalled the OS on my 
iMac I have had an issue.


Some of my characters, especially when using ' 
seem to mess up. This is the page, content and 
layout are simple as it's for a uni assignment: 
http://mi-linux.wlv.ac.uk/~0802390/overview.html


Check out the overview.html page, and notice the 
issues. There is one noticeable in the overview 
page "⤗SOAP⤁"


Any ideas?

(for those interested I do plan to publish a 
website regarding the Semantic Web shortly).



James,

Running your page through the W3 Validator 
(validator.w3.org) gives the following response:


Error line 57, Column 20: non 
SGML character number 
145.


        the keyword 
ëSOAPí in a search 
engine will return 
results	


You have used an illegal character in your text. 
HTML uses the standard UNICODE Consortium 
(http://www.unicode.org/) character repertoire, 
and it leaves undefined (among others) 65 
character codes (0 to 31 inclusive and 127 to 159 
inclusive) that are sometimes used for 
typographical quote marks and similar in 
proprietary character sets. The validator has 
found one of these undefined characters in your 
document. The character may appear on your 
browser as a curly quote, or a trademark symbol, 
or some other fancy glyph; on a different 
computer, however, it will likely appear as a 
completely different character, or nothing at all.


Your best bet is to replace the character with 
the nearest equivalent ASCII character, or to use 
an appropriate character entity 
(http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/latin1.html).


For more information on Character Encoding on the 
web, see Alan Flavell's excellent  HTML Character 
Set Issues reference 
(http://web.archive.org/web/20060425191748/ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/charset/).


End of quote.

I always recommend people use UTF-8 because it's 
a much larger character set than ISO-8859-1. I 
also recommend use of XHTML Transitional rather 
than HTML DTD's.


On a side note, I like your page, very 
attractive. But I found the 1, 2, 3, ... buttons 
at the top confusing because I kept trying to 
click the number. Then I tried clicking the blue 
text, both of which produced nothing. Finally my 
cursor wandered over the black text and I 
realized it was the link. Perhaps underlining 
that link or making it dynamic like the button 
would prevent the confusion I encountered. On the 
other hand, perhaps I just need another cup of 
coffee!


Peace,

-Tim



--
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
   Tim Offenstein  ***  Campus Accessibility Liaison  ***  (217) 244-2700
CITES Departmental Services  ***  www.uiuc.edu/goto/offenstein


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Re: [WSG] Strange character encoding issue

[Nikita The Spider The Spider]

On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 11:32 AM, James Jeffery
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't own the server.

You don't need to own the server to be able to alter its behavior.
Many (most?) ISPs allow you to customize aspects of your site.

> Anyway. I saved as ISO-8859-1, and it works on windows now but not on Mac.
> Pulling my hair out at this issue.

We might be able to help if you're more specific. Windows is an OS;
what *browser* are you using? What does that browser tell you it
thinks the page's encoding is?

Some of the characters you used (like the curly quotes) might not be
in the ISO-8859-1 character set. Browser makers are aware of this, and
even if the encoding is declared as  ISO-8859-1, the browser will
treat the encoding as Win-1252 which is an ISO-8859-1 superset.
Wikipedia can tell you the difference.


> On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 4:23 PM, David Dorward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> James Jeffery wrote:
>> > Never had a problem with character encodings on web pages, but since I
>> > reinstalled the OS on my iMac I have had an issue.
>>
>> Your server says:
>>
>>  Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> But the data is UTF-8.
>>
>> --
>> David Dorward   
>>
>>
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http://NikitaTheSpider.com/
Whole-site HTML validation, link checking and more


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Re: [WSG] Strange character encoding issue

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Your server send the data as:
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1

but in your code says UTF-8.

The values in the http-header overwrites any values in the document.

==> change the content type settig on your server 

or 

==> use iso-8859-1 charset in your documents and only valid chars.


hope this helps.

Kind regards, Stefan




James Jeffery wrote:

  
Never had a problem with character encodings on web pages, but since I
reinstalled the OS on my iMac I have had an issue.
  
Some of my characters, especially when using ' seem to mess up. This is
the page, content and layout are simple as it's for a uni assignment: http://mi-linux.wlv.ac.uk/~0802390/overview.html
  
Check out the overview.html page, and notice the issues. There is one
noticeable in the overview page "‘SOAP’"
  
Any ideas?
  
(for those interested I do plan to publish a website regarding the
Semantic Web shortly).
  
  
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Re: [WSG] Strange character encoding issue

[Iñigo]

Hi James,

file is saved as utf-8? This is the encoding in the header content-type and
it should also be the encoding  you work with.

iñ

2008/11/19 James Jeffery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Never had a problem with character encodings on web pages, but since I
> reinstalled the OS on my iMac I have had an issue.
>
> Some of my characters, especially when using ' seem to mess up. This is the
> page, content and layout are simple as it's for a uni assignment:
> http://mi-linux.wlv.ac.uk/~0802390/overview.html
>
> Check out the overview.html page, and notice the issues. There is one
> noticeable in the overview page "‘SOAP’"
>
> Any ideas?
>
> (for those interested I do plan to publish a website regarding the Semantic
> Web shortly).
>
>
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-- 
Iñigo Medina García
Tecnología

http://www.toprural.com
Tu guía de turismo rural


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Re: [WSG] Strange character encoding issue

[James Jeffery]

I used the iso-8859-1 charset and all works :)

On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 4:35 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Your server send the data as:
>
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> but in your code says UTF-8.
>
> The values in the http-header overwrites any values in the document.
>
> ==> change the content type settig on your server
>
> or
>
> ==> use iso-8859-1 charset in your documents and only valid chars.
>
>
> hope this helps.
>
> Kind regards, Stefan
>
>
>
>
> James Jeffery wrote:
>
> Never had a problem with character encodings on web pages, but since I
> reinstalled the OS on my iMac I have had an issue.
>
> Some of my characters, especially when using ' seem to mess up. This is the
> page, content and layout are simple as it's for a uni assignment:
> http://mi-linux.wlv.ac.uk/~0802390/overview.html
>
> Check out the overview.html page, and notice the issues. There is one
> noticeable in the overview page "‘SOAP’"
>
> Any ideas?
>
> (for those interested I do plan to publish a website regarding the Semantic
> Web shortly).
>
>
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[WSG] Tools or analytics to detect assistive devices

[McLaughlin, Gail]

I'm wondering if anybody here knows of a way to use analytics data to help
determine a good guess or idea of which users are using screen readers to
access data, or having trouble with certain pages (thus making the case for
doing usability and accessibility exercises)?

Thanks,
Gail



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Re: [WSG] Strange character encoding issue

[Todd Budnikas]

on Apache servers, you can add this to your httpd.conf:
AddDefaultCharset UTF-8


On Nov 19, 2008, at 11:23 AM, David Dorward wrote:


James Jeffery wrote:
Never had a problem with character encodings on web pages, but  
since I

reinstalled the OS on my iMac I have had an issue.


Your server says:

 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1

But the data is UTF-8.

--
David Dorward   






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Re: [WSG] Strange character encoding issue

[Iñigo]

yep, it's right. I've not seen that.

2008/11/19 David Dorward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> James Jeffery wrote:
> > Never had a problem with character encodings on web pages, but since I
> > reinstalled the OS on my iMac I have had an issue.
>
> Your server says:
>
>  Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> But the data is UTF-8.
>
> --
> David Dorward   
>
>
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>


-- 
Iñigo Medina García
Tecnología

http://www.toprural.com
Tu guía de turismo rural


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Re: [WSG] Strange character encoding issue

[James Jeffery]

Got it to work.

I think,  back when I got the iMac I set all this up because I had a similar
issue. When I formatted I forgot to do it again.

On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 4:32 PM, James Jeffery <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I don't own the server.
>
> Anyway. I saved as ISO-8859-1, and it works on windows now but not on Mac.
> Pulling my hair out at this issue.
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 4:23 PM, David Dorward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
>
>> James Jeffery wrote:
>> > Never had a problem with character encodings on web pages, but since I
>> > reinstalled the OS on my iMac I have had an issue.
>>
>> Your server says:
>>
>>  Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> But the data is UTF-8.
>>
>> --
>> David Dorward   
>>
>>
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>


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Re: [WSG] Strange character encoding issue

[James Jeffery]

I don't own the server.

Anyway. I saved as ISO-8859-1, and it works on windows now but not on Mac.
Pulling my hair out at this issue.

On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 4:23 PM, David Dorward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> James Jeffery wrote:
> > Never had a problem with character encodings on web pages, but since I
> > reinstalled the OS on my iMac I have had an issue.
>
> Your server says:
>
>  Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> But the data is UTF-8.
>
> --
> David Dorward   
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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>


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Re: [WSG] Strange character encoding issue

[Tom ('Mas) Pickering]

James -

Ran into this as well and it bedeviled 
me for a couple of months.  Try adding the following to your head section:


content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" />


At 10:05 AM 11/19/2008, you wrote:
Never had a problem with character encodings on 
web pages, but since I reinstalled the OS on my iMac I have had an issue.


Some of my characters, especially when using ' 
seem to mess up. This is the page, content and 
layout are simple as it's for a uni assignment: 
http://mi-linux.wlv.ac.uk/~0802390/overview.html


Check out the overview.html page, and notice the 
issues. There is one noticeable in the overview page "‘SOAP’"


Any ideas?

(for those interested I do plan to publish a 
website regarding the Semantic Web shortly).



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Tom ('Mas) Pickering - Web Developer & Patti Gray - Web Designer
[EMAIL PROTECTED] & [EMAIL PROTECTED]
PourHouse Productions - http://pourhouse.com/
When He Reigns - It Pours <)><  


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Re: [WSG] Strange character encoding issue

[David Dorward]

James Jeffery wrote:
> Never had a problem with character encodings on web pages, but since I
> reinstalled the OS on my iMac I have had an issue.

Your server says:

  Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1

But the data is UTF-8.

-- 
David Dorward   


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Re: [WSG] Strange character encoding issue

[Nikita The Spider The Spider]

On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 11:05 AM, James Jeffery
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Never had a problem with character encodings on web pages, but since I
> reinstalled the OS on my iMac I have had an issue.
>
> Some of my characters, especially when using ' seem to mess up. This is the
> page, content and layout are simple as it's for a uni assignment:
> http://mi-linux.wlv.ac.uk/~0802390/overview.html
>
> Check out the overview.html page, and notice the issues. There is one
> noticeable in the overview page "‘SOAP’"

Your HTTP header declares the encoding to be ISO-8859-1 while the HTML
(and presumably your text editor) think it is UTF-8. The HTTP header
trumps all other sources of encoding information. If you can't change
or silence this header on your server, you'll need to save your pages
as ISO-8859-1.

You might find this article about encoding sources interesting:
http://NikitaTheSpider.com/articles/EncodingDivination.html

-- 
Philip
http://NikitaTheSpider.com/
Whole-site HTML validation, link checking and more


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[WSG] Strange character encoding issue

[James Jeffery]

Never had a problem with character encodings on web pages, but since I
reinstalled the OS on my iMac I have had an issue.

Some of my characters, especially when using ' seem to mess up. This is the
page, content and layout are simple as it's for a uni assignment:
http://mi-linux.wlv.ac.uk/~0802390/overview.html

Check out the overview.html page, and notice the issues. There is one
noticeable in the overview page "‘SOAP’"

Any ideas?

(for those interested I do plan to publish a website regarding the Semantic
Web shortly).


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