Re: RE:[WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
Title: RE:[WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment I played around with flash - in a wk i made blue box move from one side to another :D!! - Original Message - From: Sean M. Hall AKA Dante To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 6:14 PM Subject: RE:[WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment "Use to force [of Web Standards]" And if that doesn't work there's always good ol "eennie meenie miney mo" Standards-based sites can be flashy, personally I wouldn't mess around with that "Flash Satay" stuff - I'll take the embed tag, thank you very much (that is assuming I ever use Flash - I probably never will, I wasn't never good with animation).
RE[WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
Title: RE[WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment The last part of my mail should've read "I was never good with animation"; sorry for the error (it's 11:30 PM here in San Francisco right now).
Re: RE:[WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
Title: RE:[WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment Wooops the link in the other email is actually... http://www.taupowebdesigns.co.nz/ sorry :$ Camz www.t94xr.net.nz
Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
That was my originaly thought... I am still contemplating what to do. I really want to make it look appealing - and yet still compliant. Good point that the graphics are still all the same - regardless of the code. Something I may have forgotten. Well you have some very good points which I appreciate! Thanks very much! - Chris Stratford Kay Smoljak wrote: Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: To knuckle down and get to the point - Do I use webstandards and efficent coding to make the website... Or do I use Flash, Verbose Table Layouts, Lots of Images Animations etc... To get people interested. Don't get suckered into the myth that standards based web sites can't look as good as old-school tag soup sites. That's what people who can't be bothered learning something new use as an argument. I maintain that the actual web sites you produce should not look any different just because you are using standards. Until someone views source (or tries a browser other than IE or uses a screen reader etc), no one should know what you've done. When I started getting our team to start coding to the standards, I didn't even mention it to the designers - I got the coders to change the way they were creating the sites. The graphic designers are still producing the same kinds of things that they did before. -- Kay Smoljak http://www.glyfx.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
Yes, thanks! I was going to have these areas: - Upcoming Events, - Forums, - Guestbook, [maybe a forum thread?] - Member Pages [free passes etc...], - Photo Album (if I get around to taking Pix) And a news reel with contact panel etc... t94xr.net.nz webmaster wrote: I would recommend you do both - have a standards compliant accessable site, but include an interactive area. A xhtml/css php/mysql"photobook" with the club at certian nights - preferably the peak holiday periods. Give them the best of both worlds. a quick loading site with an area where they can have alot more interactive with the site. A guestbook would be excellent aswell. runnnig off a db accessed both by the interactive area and the xhtml css area. Camz - Original Message - From: Chris Stratford To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 5:28 PM Subject: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment Hey list, I have something which has been a major topic of discussion between a friend and I. I am currently working on a promotions website - promoting for Sydney Nightclubs (RB Scene) To knuckle down and get to the point - Do I use webstandards and efficent coding to make the website... Or do I use Flash, Verbose Table Layouts, Lots of Images Animations etc... To get people interested. Really it is a question of - do I make the website for viewer enjoyment, or for the widest viewer spectrum. I am not sure if many of you would be in the same situation, but I can imagine it has come up at least once with us all before. Whether its a news website, or a Hosting companies website... My situation is a very sticky one - Clubbers dont want web standards, they want to see - what they can't have - lots of pictures help, and sounds are good (ambient music, on/off switch of course). My website hasn't begun yet, although I have some rough ideas, one which my friend came up with: http://www.equicom.net/chris/test.html I think its great, doesnt use flash or anything. It was an eye opener thinking it was as simple as it was. It works in FireFox (exept sound) which is good... But the fact that it looks good with such a simply design. What are your opinions - and can you lend me any assistance. Web Standars are very important to me, and I would much rather use standards compliant code, than make 10 extra people per 100 happy because there is a boxed layout (like the demo website)... I could code that in CSS, but it wouldn't be as solid as it is with Tables. Anyway! Let me know what you all think! Cheers! Chris Stratford.
Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
I know what you mean about the "I'll take the embed tag" - I can relate there, so much effort for such a small validation. I would rather just not have my footer with: "STANDARDS COMPLIANT" on that one page... LoL... thanks for the input! cheers! Chris Stratford Sean M. Hall AKA Dante wrote: RE:[WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment "Use to force [of Web Standards]" And if that doesn't work there's always good ol "eennie meenie miney mo" Standards-based sites can be flashy, personally I wouldn't mess around with that "Flash Satay" stuff - I'll take the embed tag, thank you very much (that is assuming I ever use Flash - I probably never will, I wasn't never good with animation).
RE: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
Chris, look at it this way: they're all going to be tripping, anyway, so you're just doubling up on the psychedelic experience :o) Don't do it. Go standards. My stepson's heading a D B/Jungle unit so I've got to dip more than a toe into that environment very shortly. I didn't even consider using anything but standards-compliant accessiblemarkup when the build request arose. Yes, it is challenging to go standards when the glamour of Flash beckons but consider this: if you want to send SMS alerts to cell phones you're gonna use text. And when they hit the site they're gonna want quick access and not huge cell phone bills. Consider the practical commercial aspects of what you're looking to achieve. Give them what they really want: a list of what's on and where in the clubber scene in Sydney. Make it useful; make it functional. Then you can consider all the 'Wow, that's cool' bits with CSS rollovers, etc. (Incidentally, well written Flash does not mean inaccessible; it's just another tool.) Mike Pepper Accessible Web Developer (on a roll) www.seowebsitepromotion.com www.gawds.org
Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
Horses for courses - you build what will attract your client's audience - if the client requires a site for a niche audience with it's own characteristics (as long as these are known not just assumed) then a lot of the usual cliches about not losing part of the potential audience MAY not apply. There must be some people out there who actually like sitting through flash animations - just like the movie companies must have done audience research that proves that most of us like sitting through endless clever animated sequences that eventually get you to the menu screen on a DVD. When I started working on websites the woman who took me on said just remember that there are millions of idiots out there who will burn up their phone bill and sit for ages waiting to see a fake image of Gillian Anderson's privates slowly reveal itself on screen but they're unlikely to be still waiting on your ever-so-neat price list and order form for home delivered pizza to materialise. As basic advice it's worked for me Jeff 06:28 05/06/2004, you wrote: Hey list, I have something which has been a major topic of discussion between a friend and I. I am currently working on a promotions website - promoting for Sydney Nightclubs (RB Scene) To knuckle down and get to the point - Do I use webstandards and efficent coding to make the website... Or do I use Flash, Verbose Table Layouts, Lots of Images Animations etc... To get people interested. Really it is a question of - do I make the website for viewer enjoyment, or for the widest viewer spectrum. I am not sure if many of you would be in the same situation, but I can imagine it has come up at least once with us all before. Whether its a news website, or a Hosting companies website... My situation is a very sticky one - Clubbers dont want web standards, they want to see - what they can't have - lots of pictures help, and sounds are good (ambient music, on/off switch of course). My website hasn't begun yet, although I have some rough ideas, one which my friend came up with: http://www.equicom.net/chris/test.htmlhttp://www.equicom.net/chris/test.html I think its great, doesnt use flash or anything. It was an eye opener thinking it was as simple as it was. It works in FireFox (exept sound) which is good... But the fact that it looks good with such a simply design. What are your opinions - and can you lend me any assistance. Web Standars are very important to me, and I would much rather use standards compliant code, than make 10 extra people per 100 happy because there is a boxed layout (like the demo website)... I could code that in CSS, but it wouldn't be as solid as it is with Tables. Anyway! Let me know what you all think! Cheers! Chris Stratford. web-arts: the art craft of web design http://www.web-arts.biz * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
Horses for courses - you build what will attract your client's audience - if the client requires a site for a niche audience with it's own characteristics (as long as these are known not just assumed) then a lot of the usual cliches about not losing part of the potential audience MAY not apply. There must be some people out there who actually like sitting through flash animations - just like the movie companies must have done audience research that proves that most of us like sitting through endless clever animated sequences that eventually get you to the menu screen on a DVD. When I started working on websites the woman who took me on said just remember that there are millions of idiots out there who will burn up their phone bill and sit for ages waiting to see a fake image of Gillian Anderson's privates slowly reveal itself on screen but they're unlikely to be still waiting on your ever-so-neat price list and order form for home delivered pizza to materialise. As basic advice it's worked for me Jeff 06:28 05/06/2004, you wrote: Hey list, I have something which has been a major topic of discussion between a friend and I. I am currently working on a promotions website - promoting for Sydney Nightclubs (RB Scene) To knuckle down and get to the point - Do I use webstandards and efficent coding to make the website... Or do I use Flash, Verbose Table Layouts, Lots of Images Animations etc... To get people interested. Really it is a question of - do I make the website for viewer enjoyment, or for the widest viewer spectrum. I am not sure if many of you would be in the same situation, but I can imagine it has come up at least once with us all before. Whether its a news website, or a Hosting companies website... My situation is a very sticky one - Clubbers dont want web standards, they want to see - what they can't have - lots of pictures help, and sounds are good (ambient music, on/off switch of course). My website hasn't begun yet, although I have some rough ideas, one which my friend came up with: http://www.equicom.net/chris/test.htmlhttp://www.equicom.net/chris/test.html I think its great, doesnt use flash or anything. It was an eye opener thinking it was as simple as it was. It works in FireFox (exept sound) which is good... But the fact that it looks good with such a simply design. What are your opinions - and can you lend me any assistance. Web Standars are very important to me, and I would much rather use standards compliant code, than make 10 extra people per 100 happy because there is a boxed layout (like the demo website)... I could code that in CSS, but it wouldn't be as solid as it is with Tables. Anyway! Let me know what you all think! Cheers! Chris Stratford. web-arts: the art craft of web design http://www.web-arts.biz * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
I think can beat that! I played around with flash and and then Peter and I were threatened with defamation in the Supreme Court of Queensland: http://news.awn.com/index.php?newsitem_no=4149 But that was before we became responsible listparents :) Russ I played around with flash - in a wk i made blue box move from one side to another :D!! * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
Russ Weakley - Maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I played around with flash and and then Peter and I were threatened with defamation in the Supreme Court of Queensland: http://news.awn.com/index.php?newsitem_no=4149 Is the site no longer up? -- Kay Smoljak http://www.newlookhair.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
I can view it in Firefox 0.8 , heres the text for ppl who cant access it for some reason http://news.awn.com/index.php?newsitem_no=4149 Australian Government Sets Out To Ban Political Web Game January 23, 2001 Government officials in Australia are threatening a lawsuit against WebWank.net for posting a political satire Web game, which pokes fun at the country's treatment of its aboriginal people. Aboriginal Affairs Minister John Herron feels that the use of his likeness in the game, JOHN HERRON'S STOLEN CHILDREN GAME, is a defamation of character. In the game, players must capture all ten of John Herron's children then place them in non-white families. The game is a satire of an early 20th century Australian policy, which removed aboriginal children from their families and placed them in white homes. Current Australian Prime Minister, John Howard, has also come under heat of late for refusing to apologize for the policy, which displaced thousands of children known as the Stolen Generation. The STOLEN CHILDREN creators, Russ Weakley and Peter Firminger, e-mailed Herron about what he thought of the game. Herron responded in a written letter saying, This is formally to let you know that I am instituting proceedings against you for defamation in the Supreme Court of Queensland. The Federal Police will be involved to track this Website if I do not receive a response within 24 hours. Weakley and Firminger removed the game on Thursday, January 18, however it was back up on Monday, January 22. The creators wrote on the site, This game is political satire. It was intended to be a comic depiction of the Howard government's policy and John Herron's stance towards the 'Stolen Generation.' We do not, in any way, intend to offend or threaten John Herron's real children. Electronic Frontier Australia board member Dale Clapperton said, In a free society, it is completely unacceptable for politicians to use threats of legal action to silence their critics. Senator Herron has completely overreacted to a humorous parody of his handling of the 'Stolen Generation' issue. Furthermore, threatening to use the Federal Police to track down the authors of this site constitutes a gross abuse of his power as an elected official. WebWank features two other political games, which have enflamed officials. THE CRUCIFIXION GAME challenges players to nail WebWank creators to a cross and THE JOHN HOWARD SHOOTING GALLERY has gamers fling tampons at the Prime Minister a poke at the Australian government's unpopular tax on feminine hygiene products. -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy Mobile: +61 403 8000 27 Kay Smoljak wrote: Russ Weakley - Maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I played around with flash and and then Peter and I were threatened with defamation in the Supreme Court of Queensland: http://news.awn.com/index.php?newsitem_no=4149 Is the site no longer up? -- Kay Smoljak http://www.newlookhair.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
Hi Kay, http://news.awn.com/index.php?newsitem_no=4149 Is the site no longer up? I can see it, and had a good giggle :-) -- Yours, Kym * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
Neerav [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I can view it in Firefox 0.8 , heres the text for ppl who cant access it for some reason http://news.awn.com/index.php?newsitem_no=4149 Sorry, I meant the site the article talks about - webwank.net - I want to throw tampons at John Howard! -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.smoljak.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment - OT
Apologies to all - I seem to have done some thread hijacking of my own! That off-topic post was made in a flippant mood on Saturday night. The site in question was taken down a year or two ago, so the games cannot be seen. However, the front page is still available on the wayback machine (may offend some viewers): http://web.archive.org/web/20020925212239/webwank.net/ In those days we were into political activism and fighting for the rights of Indigenous Australians. Now we are standards evangelists fighting for CSS and standards against repressive regimes (such as IE6). :) Back to discussions on web standards... Russ Sorry, I meant the site the article talks about - webwank.net - I want to throw tampons at John Howard! * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment
I would recommend you do both - have a standards compliant accessable site, but include an interactive area. A xhtml/css php/mysql"photobook" with the club at certian nights - preferably the peak holiday periods. Give them the best of both worlds. a quick loading site with an area where they can have alot more interactive with the site. A guestbook would be excellent aswell. runnnig off a db accessed both by the interactive area and the xhtml css area. Camz - Original Message - From: Chris Stratford To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 5:28 PM Subject: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment Hey list,I have something which has been a major topic of discussion between a friend and I.I am currently working on a promotions website - promoting for Sydney Nightclubs (RB Scene)To knuckle down and get to the point - Do I use webstandards and efficent coding to make the website...Or do I use Flash, Verbose Table Layouts, Lots of Images Animations etc... To get people interested.Really it is a question of - do I make the website for viewer enjoyment, or for the widest viewer spectrum.I am not sure if many of you would be in the same situation, but I can imagine it has come up at least once with us all before.Whether its a news website, or a Hosting companies website...My situation is a very sticky one - Clubbers dont want web standards, they want to see - what they can't have - lots of pictures help, and sounds are good (ambient music, on/off switch of course).My website hasn't begun yet, although I have some rough ideas, one which my friend came up with:http://www.equicom.net/chris/test.htmlI think its great, doesnt use flash or anything.It was an eye opener thinking it was as simple as it was.It works in FireFox (exept sound) which is good...But the fact that it looks good with such a simply design.What are your opinions - and can you lend me any assistance.Web Standars are very important to me, and I would much rather use standards compliant code, than make 10 extra people per 100 happy because there is a boxed layout (like the demo website)...I could code that in CSS, but it wouldn't be as solid as it is with Tables.Anyway!Let me know what you all think!Cheers!Chris Stratford.
