Re: [WSG] Standards compliant site, clients wants to make updates themselves
Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
Bert Doorn wrote:
Is it just me, or is this a common dilemma? Apart from abandoning
standards compliance (not an option as far as I'm concerned), setting
the site up in HTML4.01 Transitional and letting amateurs wreak havoc
with Micro$oft FONTPlague, what options are there to design
standards compliant sites, letting clients maintain them and still
stay within web standards?
Idealistic, but I'd suggest client education. Offer to take them
through the absolute basics, emphasising the advantages of *not* doing
things like setting fonts etc. Create a simple cheat sheet for them,
outlining the process of updating pages (in their specific
application), dos and don'ts, etc. As a good customer relations
exercise, follow up after a month or so to see how they're doing, if
they need any tuition or help, etc. Maybe you'll even get some repeat
business, or a small trickle of we made an update, but something went
wrong...can you have a look?
Again...idealistic. But I've managed to get this through on a variety
of projects, and seems to work quite nicely in most cases.
I have had a good amount of success with a cheat-sheet style approach.
just outlining basic things that they might want to do. Of course this
goes also with my CMS that helps out a bit. I don't see why you couldn't
make a simple one file admin for just editing pages online. So long as
page content is dynamically included. If you use separate files and have
something like include('header.htm'); nav, footer, etc on each page then
you have the problem that they may delete or misplace these elements.
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant site, clients wants to make updates themselves
Hi Bert, I do not exact know, if you know Xml/Xsl: But using them could help a lot. I am using this to create the inner window without the navigation. Look at http://www.sql-und-xml.de/xml/index.xml - there is no navigation defined. Matching all these Xml-Files with the associated Xsl produces pure Html - http://www.sql-und-xml.de/ is the Output for most of the browsers and spiders and has now a navigation. Using external Entities could also separate content, navigation and formatting elements. When I create a new page, the result is 'naturally XHtml1.1 - valide'. The Html-Version can be produced with a VBScript or a NET-Tool. Best Regards, Juergen Auer On 21 Mar 2005 at 11:22, Bert Doorn wrote: I design sites to be standards compliant (usually XHTML1.0 Strict). This is ~supposed~ to make maintenance easier, and it is for me since I know what I'm doing (or at least, I think I do) ... What other options are there, apart from complex, expensive CMS setups (or forgetting about standards)? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Standards compliant site, clients wants to make updates themselves
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bert Doorn Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 10:22 PM To: Web Standards Group Subject: [WSG] Standards compliant site, clients wants to make updates themselves I design sites to be standards compliant (usually XHTML1.0 Strict). This is ~supposed~ to make maintenance easier, and it is for me since I know what I'm doing (or at least, I think I do) However, I get many prospects who want to update sites themselves. In many cases, these are very small businesses with just one or two people, none of which have any idea about (x)HTML. Most of them have very small budgets, so they can't afford a complete CMS type setup (and it's not the kind of thing I can supply) and they tend to only want a small site (a few pages) for next to nothing. Is it just me, or is this a common dilemma? Apart from abandoning standards compliance (not an option as far as I'm concerned), setting the site up in HTML4.01 Transitional and letting amateurs wreak havoc with Micro$oft FONTPlague, what options are there to design standards compliant sites, letting clients maintain them and still stay within web standards? ** Why not just offer to do it either on a contractual basis (x dollars for y time per month) or a per item basis? The work is generally trivial. drew ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant site, clients wants to make updates themselves
On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 11:22:29 +0800, Bert Doorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What other options are there, apart from complex, expensive CMS setups (or forgetting about standards)? Why not use a simple, free CMS like Wordpress or Textpattern? Both are free (as in speech and as in beer), fairly simple to configure and work with, and built to support standards. I think TXP (Textpattern) will give you and your clients an easy way to update their site and also, to avoid that your client destroys all the site design and estructure, by messing up with XHTML or CSS and screwing up all your work. Textpattern has the posibility to assing different permissions to the users, so you can be a Publisher (you have access to all administration options), and your client can be just an Author (and have access to modify just the contents, articles, links, etc). BTW, TXP is a CMS, but this doesnt mean that you need to create a blog-like site. I use it to manage an static site with few dinamic content. http://www.textpattern.com Excuse my poor english. Regards, Julián Le Mannequin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Standards compliant site, clients wants to make updates themselves
Another enthusiastic endorsement of Textpattern. I've used it a number of times in scenarios where the client wants to update the site themselves (see www.fluidwav.com as an example). I've also used it to manage more complex sites, where static pages would just be way too difficult to maintain (www.digroup.ca). I am very limited when it comes to php, but textpattern allows me to exploit many of the server-side benefits of scripting without having to write a single line of code. The txp paradigm take a bit of getting used to (for example, the word form is used to refer to a reusable bit of html, aka a php include), but once you've got it down, you'll have a hard time imagining working without it. Peter Flaschner www.peterflaschner.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Julián Landerreche Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 9:54 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Standards compliant site, clients wants to make updates themselves On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 11:22:29 +0800, Bert Doorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What other options are there, apart from complex, expensive CMS setups (or forgetting about standards)? Why not use a simple, free CMS like Wordpress or Textpattern? Both are free (as in speech and as in beer), fairly simple to configure and work with, and built to support standards. I think TXP (Textpattern) will give you and your clients an easy way to update their site and also, to avoid that your client destroys all the site design and estructure, by messing up with XHTML or CSS and screwing up all your work. Textpattern has the posibility to assing different permissions to the users, so you can be a Publisher (you have access to all administration options), and your client can be just an Author (and have access to modify just the contents, articles, links, etc). BTW, TXP is a CMS, but this doesnt mean that you need to create a blog-like site. I use it to manage an static site with few dinamic content. http://www.textpattern.com Excuse my poor english. Regards, Julián Le Mannequin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant site, clients wants to make updates themselves
I've run into this problem quite a bit (in one way or another). I've found in the end is that the simple most effective way to fix it is to simply put instructions in the code with comments and do your best to instruct them on the details. If you don't work for a company and it's a private client you're dealing with who are desperate to make the updates themselves (and, understably, not pay you for your expertise) then they will either have to develop their own expertise (point them in the direction of a short course or you can teach them), or they can make mistakes. Updating a website without a CMS is a task for anyone. If they want to benefit from having a webpage, then they can either learn to do it or send the work to someone who knows how. In the end, it's like owning a car, either you get it repaired by a mechanic or you try to fix it, break it more and then get it repaired by a mechanic anyway, but at least with the later, maybe you've learnt something. In the end I gave up trying to teach every client and became a CMS developer. :P ~Dave Bert Doorn wrote: I design sites to be standards compliant (usually XHTML1.0 Strict). This is ~supposed~ to make maintenance easier, and it is for me since I know what I'm doing (or at least, I think I do) However, I get many prospects who want to update sites themselves. In many cases, these are very small businesses with just one or two people, none of which have any idea about (x)HTML. Most of them have very small budgets, so they can't afford a complete CMS type setup (and it's not the kind of thing I can supply) and they tend to only want a small site (a few pages) for next to nothing. Is it just me, or is this a common dilemma? Apart from abandoning standards compliance (not an option as far as I'm concerned), setting the site up in HTML4.01 Transitional and letting amateurs wreak havoc with Micro$oft FONTPlague, what options are there to design standards compliant sites, letting clients maintain them and still stay within web standards? Yes, I know there's things like XStandard, and the confusingly named FCKEditor. However, these (as far as I know) require server side scripting and the client would have to have write-access to the files on the server (or a database driven site), all of which increases the cost. What other options are there, apart from complex, expensive CMS setups (or forgetting about standards)? Regards -- *~Dave Elkan *munch munch*e:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *w:* http://www.zigzig.net *w:* http://www.edave.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant site, clients wants to make updates themselves
So... I'll stick with I will update for you as and when needed and charge for it. If you want CMS, I can't help you. The best advice in the thread seemed to be using comments in the markup. Unless they intend extreme updates, the ability to quickly locate and change their business profile - - or drop in seasonal specials and discounts - - is what will make the biggest impact for a small player. And a well-commented and cleanly coded page should be able to show them where it is while keeping them away from the part they can muck up. And yes, one of my clients is doing just that. Sure, I get a call every few months to add in a bit of something, or fix something he broke ... but the good will generated by helping him do a bit himself, I think, helped develop the client relationship. And as he grows, the time between calls is shorter and shorter. Flies and honey and all that. one man's opinion. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant site, clients wants to make updates themselves
So... I'll stick with I will update for you as and when needed and charge for it. If you want CMS, I can't help you. Or more like this?: I will update for you as and when needed and charge for it or you can try it yourself and I'll charge you to fix it later which may cost more than if I did it myself in the first place. If you want CMS, I can't help you. :-P -- - Tom Livingston Senior Multimedia Artist Media Logic mlinc.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant site, clients wants to make updates themselves
Hi Bert The people I am trying to help want simple buttons to format text on static pages, not learn a new language (otherwise I'd teach them HTML). I haven't used this, but looked into it a while back, but it might provide a solution for some of your clients. Visit http://www.flyspeck.net/. It doesn't use a database, has password protection and allows for multiple edit chunks per page. HTH Sarah :) -- XERT Communications email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] office: +61 2 4782 3104 mobile: 0438 017 416 http://www.xert.com.au/ web development : digital imaging : dvd production ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Standards compliant site, clients wants to make updates themselves
Hi Peter I am really interested in Textpattern, but like many others want to retain XHTML/CSS validation when clients make changes. Another enthusiastic endorsement of Textpattern. I've used it a number of times in scenarios where the client wants to update the site themselves (see www.fluidwav.com as an example). I've also used it to manage more complex sites, where static pages would just be way too difficult to maintain (www.digroup.ca). I am very limited when it comes to php, but textpattern allows me to exploit many of the server-side benefits of scripting without having to write a single line of code. I have just looked at both your sites (they're very impressive BTW), but there were some validation problems on the pages I looked at. Can you tell me whether the sites were XHTML/CSS valid when they went live? And if so, has the client's use of Textpattern thrown them out since? Thanks Sarah :) -- XERT Communications email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] office: +61 2 4782 3104 mobile: 0438 017 416 http://www.xert.com.au/ web development : digital imaging : dvd production ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant site, clients wants to make updates themselves
Bert Doorn wrote: What other options are there, apart from complex, expensive CMS setups (or forgetting about standards)? Check out liveSTORYBOARD CMS (http://www.livestoryboard.com/): * standards based CMS and standards compliant output * completely separates look and feel, business logic and content * content is edited in a friendly wysiwyg (suitable for non technically savvy content contributors, but an XML tree view is also available) * content is schema validated * provides staging environments * no install or maintenance for your clients - the CMS is hosted * affordable best, Iva. begin:vcard fn:Iva Koberg n:Koberg;Iva org:liveSTORYBOARD Inc. adr:#5;;2 Clarence Place;San Francisco;CA;94107;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] tel;work:415-615-9079 tel;fax:415-615-9036 tel;cell:415-823-5746 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.livestoryboard.com version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant site, clients wants to make updates themselves
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 00:28:47 +0800, Bert Doorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Contribute sounds like a good idea, but it means I have to learn to use Dreamweaver and its template system. Plus the customer needs to learn how to use Contribute. Too hard. You don't have to use DW templates - that's just one suggestion for limiting the areas they can update. Also, learning the product takes about ten minutes for anyone - I haven't had a client yet who hasn't been amazed at how easy it actually is. I guess if you're happy to say to the client if you want a CMS I can't help you that's fine. Personally, I wouldn't dream of turning a client away, but that's just me! -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.smoljak.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Standards compliant site, clients wants to make updates themselves
I design sites to be standards compliant (usually XHTML1.0 Strict). This is ~supposed~ to make maintenance easier, and it is for me since I know what I'm doing (or at least, I think I do) However, I get many prospects who want to update sites themselves. In many cases, these are very small businesses with just one or two people, none of which have any idea about (x)HTML. Most of them have very small budgets, so they can't afford a complete CMS type setup (and it's not the kind of thing I can supply) and they tend to only want a small site (a few pages) for next to nothing. Is it just me, or is this a common dilemma? Apart from abandoning standards compliance (not an option as far as I'm concerned), setting the site up in HTML4.01 Transitional and letting amateurs wreak havoc with Micro$oft FONTPlague, what options are there to design standards compliant sites, letting clients maintain them and still stay within web standards? Yes, I know there's things like XStandard, and the confusingly named FCKEditor. However, these (as far as I know) require server side scripting and the client would have to have write-access to the files on the server (or a database driven site), all of which increases the cost. What other options are there, apart from complex, expensive CMS setups (or forgetting about standards)? Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant site, clients wants to make updates themselves
Bert Doorn wrote: Is it just me, or is this a common dilemma? Apart from abandoning standards compliance (not an option as far as I'm concerned), setting the site up in HTML4.01 Transitional and letting amateurs wreak havoc with Micro$oft FONTPlague, what options are there to design standards compliant sites, letting clients maintain them and still stay within web standards? Idealistic, but I'd suggest client education. Offer to take them through the absolute basics, emphasising the advantages of *not* doing things like setting fonts etc. Create a simple cheat sheet for them, outlining the process of updating pages (in their specific application), dos and don'ts, etc. As a good customer relations exercise, follow up after a month or so to see how they're doing, if they need any tuition or help, etc. Maybe you'll even get some repeat business, or a small trickle of we made an update, but something went wrong...can you have a look? Again...idealistic. But I've managed to get this through on a variety of projects, and seems to work quite nicely in most cases. -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant site, clients wants to make updates themselves
On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 11:22:29 +0800, Bert Doorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What other options are there, apart from complex, expensive CMS setups (or forgetting about standards)? Why not use a simple, free CMS like Wordpress or Textpattern? Both are free (as in speech and as in beer), fairly simple to configure and work with, and built to support standards. -- May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house. -- George Carlin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant site, clients wants to make updates themselves
Bert Doorn wrote: However, I get many prospects who want to update sites themselves. In many cases, these are very small businesses with just one or two people, none of which have any idea about (x)HTML. Most of them have very small budgets, so they can't afford a complete CMS type setup (and it's not the kind of thing I can supply) and they tend to only want a small site (a few pages) for next to nothing. Is it just me, or is this a common dilemma? Apart from abandoning standards compliance (not an option as far as I'm concerned), setting the site up in HTML4.01 Transitional and letting amateurs wreak havoc with Micro$oft FONTPlague, what options are there to design standards compliant sites, letting clients maintain them and still stay within web standards? What is the issue with HTML 4.01 Transitional? A site that validates to that is standards-compliant. Regarding updating, from what I've heard Macromedia Contribute is good for these sorts of jobs. It allows clients access to specified content areas of the site and produces pretty good markup. Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant site, clients wants to make updates themselves
What other options are there, apart from complex, expensive CMS setups (or forgetting about standards)? I've had a lot of success with Macromedia Contribute. You can pick up a copy for around AUD $220 from Harvey Norman or Harris Technology, it totally respects server-side code and standards, and if you use Dreamweaver templates you can specify which parts of the page the client is allowed to edit. It's very squarely targeted at *maintenance* rather than you can use this to build your own web site. Highly recommended! -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.smoljak.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant site, clients wants to make updates themselves
G'day What is the issue with HTML 4.01 Transitional? A site that validates to that is standards-compliant. To the letter, yes. However, why give the client the power to insert deprecated (even in HTML4.0, April 1998) elements and attributes (font, center, bgcolor, background, to mention a few), creating bloated spaghetti code? Besides, if the client uses M$ FontPlague, it's very easy to add invalid markup, even with a Transitional DTD. Give the customer the power to turn the site into valid spaghetti code? I don't think that's in the spirit of web standards. Regarding updating, from what I've heard Macromedia Contribute is good for these sorts of jobs. It allows clients access to specified content areas of the site and produces pretty good markup. I guess Contribute is an option - just hope I don't need to then use Dreamweaver to develop the sites (I've got it, but don't use it much - prefer hand-coding). And if they can't figure out how to use it, they can come back and pay for updates... Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant site, clients wants to make updates themselves
Bert Doorn wrote: However, I get many prospects who want to update sites themselves. In many cases, these are very small businesses with just one or two people, none of which have any idea about (x)HTML. Most of them have very small budgets, so they can't afford a complete CMS type setup (and it's not the kind of thing I can supply) and they tend to only want a small site (a few pages) for next to nothing. What other options are there, apart from complex, expensive CMS setups (or forgetting about standards)? Regards I've found using Textpattern to be fairly successful in keeping client updated sites valid. -- Ben Hamilton http://wallishamilton.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant site, clients wants to make updates themselves
Macromedia Contribute using dreamweaver templates? Scott Thornton, Programmer Application Development Information Services and Telecommunications Hunter-New England Area Health Service Phone RNH +61 2 49236078 Fax +61 2 49236076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 21/03/2005 2:22:29 pm I design sites to be standards compliant (usually XHTML1.0 Strict). This is ~supposed~ to make maintenance easier, and it is for me since I know what I'm doing (or at least, I think I do) However, I get many prospects who want to update sites themselves. In many cases, these are very small businesses with just one or two people, none of which have any idea about (x)HTML. Most of them have very small budgets, so they can't afford a complete CMS type setup (and it's not the kind of thing I can supply) and they tend to only want a small site (a few pages) for next to nothing. Is it just me, or is this a common dilemma? Apart from abandoning standards compliance (not an option as far as I'm concerned), setting the site up in HTML4.01 Transitional and letting amateurs wreak havoc with Micro$oft FONTPlague, what options are there to design standards compliant sites, letting clients maintain them and still stay within web standards? Yes, I know there's things like XStandard, and the confusingly named FCKEditor. However, these (as far as I know) require server side scripting and the client would have to have write-access to the files on the server (or a database driven site), all of which increases the cost. What other options are there, apart from complex, expensive CMS setups (or forgetting about standards)? Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant site, clients wants to make updates themselves
Kay Smoljak wrote: What other options are there, apart from complex, expensive CMS setups (or forgetting about standards)? I've had a lot of success with Macromedia Contribute. You can pick up a copy for around AUD $220 from Harvey Norman or Harris Technology, it totally respects server-side code and standards, and if you use Dreamweaver templates you can specify which parts of the page the client is allowed to edit. It's very squarely targeted at *maintenance* rather than "you can use this to build your own web site". Highly recommended! A good way to limit what clients can edit within Contribute is to employ server side includes for the parts that you want to lock down. http://www.macromedia.com/cfusion/knowledgebase/index.cfm?id=tn_16675 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
