RE: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer
Crazy... that's really not good... (._.) I'm using pair networks (http://www.pair.com) as a host and email service for my website. I don't use IMAP or POP anything, just their webmail powered by SquirrelMail. These delays can't be good for business, or this discussion forum (_) Sorry and I'll look into it. I had no ideas my posts were so late until recently. Regards, Darian Cabot -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Cabot Consultants Pty Ltd Software Engineer / Website Design http://www.cabotconsultants.com.au -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- I think there must be something wrong with your email service Darian because I haven't seen it yet. And it's the day AFTER tomorrow already. Cheers Mike Kear -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darian Cabot Sent: Saturday, 3 April 2004 9:39 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer Sorry. Everytime I reply it takes a long time to appear in the thread. I dunno if it's my mail service or what, but that message I wrote didn't appear for ages. (_) ...you might see this one by tomorrow?? :P and by that time maybe it's also on the discussion board (-_-; ) Darian Cabot * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer
This thread has already been moved offlist to the discussion room: http://discuss.webstandardsgroup.org/archives/09.htm Please do not continue this thread onlist Russ I agree Leo, programming takes a logical mind. Art takes a creative mind. However there is a grey area, and I believe that is left to the gifted :P A graphical designer or artist that can come up with a fresh stylish design AND have all the features of accessability and standards is a rare thing, I guess that's what a lot of us would love to be able to do. That's why I'm here, I would love to find the perfect balance, however i know it's impossible for all to agree on where that balance is. I guess it's more pracitical for me to try and find the majorly accepted balance (^_^) Did I make sence? Ok ok... BASICALLY I wanna rock at this stuff :P hehe * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer
Sorry. Everytime I reply it takes a long time to appear in the thread. I dunno if it's my mail service or what, but that message I wrote didn't appear for ages. (_) ...you might see this one by tomorrow?? :P and by that time maybe it's also on the discussion board (-_-; ) Darian Cabot -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Cabot Consultants Pty Ltd Software Engineer / Website Design http://www.cabotconsultants.com.au -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- This thread has already been moved offlist to the discussion room: http://discuss.webstandardsgroup.org/archives/09.htm Please do not continue this thread onlist Russ I agree Leo, programming takes a logical mind. Art takes a creative mind. However there is a grey area, and I believe that is left to the gifted :P A graphical designer or artist that can come up with a fresh stylish design AND have all the features of accessability and standards is a rare thing, I guess that's what a lot of us would love to be able to do. That's why I'm here, I would love to find the perfect balance, however i know it's impossible for all to agree on where that balance is. I guess it's more pracitical for me to try and find the majorly accepted balance (^_^) Did I make sence? Ok ok... BASICALLY I wanna rock at this stuff :P hehe * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer
I think there must be something wrong with your email service Darian because I haven't seen it yet. And it's the day AFTER tomorrow already. Cheers Mike Kear -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darian Cabot Sent: Saturday, 3 April 2004 9:39 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer Sorry. Everytime I reply it takes a long time to appear in the thread. I dunno if it's my mail service or what, but that message I wrote didn't appear for ages. (_) ...you might see this one by tomorrow?? :P and by that time maybe it's also on the discussion board (-_-; ) Darian Cabot * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer
My reply didn't show the full quote... so here it is for those who will accuse me of taking it out of context. Art is best left to people that have a knack for it. But again, anyone can learn to program. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer
I'm the guilty party Leo. Well it was 2am and I guess that came out convoluted. I meant to say it would be easier to learn coding than to learn good art. Both are talents in their own realms, but if you are forced to transition from one into another, I'm sure Design into HTML would be easier on the person. Please don't kill me. :) PS. -- I'm a coder. `Nuff said. -- Ryan Christie [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.theward.net Leo J. O'Campo wrote: My reply didn't show the full quote... so here it is for those who will accuse me of taking it out of context. Art is best left to people that have a knack for it. But again, anyone can learn to program. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer
Hi Kay, I wouldn't worry too much even if your designers think Fireworks output is a good way to go. For years, we used table-based sites. All of our designers were taught Fireworks/Dreamweaver. Starting January 2004, we completely abandoned Fireworks. All of our new sites are being produced using standards. All of my designers have accepted the shift in procedures with enthusiasm. They have all been reading books by Jeff Zeldman and Eric Meyer. I've found that most of them are picking up the basics of standards quite quickly. So... I guess what I am saying that hire a designer that does beautiful work. It's much easier to help someone learn standards than it is to try and make someone artistically talented. Christine -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kay Smoljak Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 7:53 AM To: Web Standards Group Subject: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer Hi guys, At work, we're about to hire a new graphic designer, as our guys are flat out. We're looking for someone with some markup skills as well as visual design, and as I'm the nominated standards nazi I'm charged with making sure their html and css is up to scratch. As this is primarily a graphic design position, I'm not expecting any of the applicants to be too savvy about web standards already. But I'm hoping to find someone who doesn't consider Fireworks Web export a good way to create sites, and who won't be too hard to bring around to our way of doing things. So what am I actually asking? I'm interested in what you guys consider reasonable to expect from a graphic designer who also does some overflow html. What would you be looking for? What would you ask in the interview? Thanks for any ideas, K. -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.smoljak.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer
Have they ever used Dreamweaver without going into the WYSIWYG. Do they KNOW HTML? Could they code a site with nothing but notepad? - Jeremy Flint www.jeremyflint.com Kay Smoljak wrote: Hi guys, At work, we're about to hire a new graphic designer, as our guys are flat out. We're looking for someone with some markup skills as well as visual design, and as I'm the nominated standards nazi I'm charged with making sure their html and css is up to scratch. As this is primarily a graphic design position, I'm not expecting any of the applicants to be too savvy about web standards already. But I'm hoping to find someone who doesn't consider Fireworks Web export a good way to create sites, and who won't be too hard to bring around to our way of doing things. So what am I actually asking? I'm interested in what you guys consider reasonable to expect from a graphic designer who also does some overflow html. What would you be looking for? What would you ask in the interview? Thanks for any ideas, K. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer
Hi guys, [snip] So what am I actually asking? I'm interested in what you guys consider reasonable to expect from a graphic designer who also does some overflow html. What would you be looking for? What would you ask in the interview? Thanks for any ideas, K. -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.smoljak.com You should make up a test that starts with typical graphical elements that your company uses and perhaps a hand drawn mock up of a page. Have them design first in fireworks or whatever your graphic design tool of choice is the layout and then ask them to create a rough HTML of it. Then you can look at all the files during the remainder of the interview and have them explain their methodology. I've done similar tests to hire folks and it has worked really well in finding the skill sets I have wanted. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer
You should make up a test that starts with typical graphical elements that your company uses and perhaps a hand drawn mock up of a page. Have them design first in fireworks or whatever your graphic design tool of choice is the layout and then ask them to create a rough HTML of it. Then you can look at all the files during the remainder of the interview and have them explain their methodology. We do the same thing, with similar success. Note though that this might take some time if you have them do it in your office, because they will be in an unfamiliar environment. If you don't want to use too much office space/time/resources for this, you could have applicants start by doing a similar project at home and submitting it along with their resume and portfolio. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer
The only way to find a designer that is sensitive to what's required with standards, accessibility, CSS-based layouts, valid XHTML, etc is to find a web designer with ALL these skills, even if you don't take advantage of them all. They must be able to hand-code valid XHTML in order to have an understanding of what's required. They must have some experience using CSS2 for layout to know it's strengths and limitations. They must have attempted to get a few sites upto 508 or WAG in order to fundamentally understand Accessibility. The bottom line is these skills *can* be *TAUGHT* to any new employee, so maybe all you really need to know is if they can hand-code HTML and CSS, and have an understanding and appreciation of standards accessibility? I think I'd just hire someone with ALL the skills, then take advantage of as much as you can -- over time your business will grow to take up all his/her skills. On 31/03/2004, at 10:52 PM, Kay Smoljak wrote: At work, we're about to hire a new graphic designer, as our guys are flat out. We're looking for someone with some markup skills as well as visual design, and as I'm the nominated standards nazi I'm charged with making sure their html and css is up to scratch. As this is primarily a graphic design position, I'm not expecting any of the applicants to be too savvy about web standards already. But I'm hoping to find someone who doesn't consider Fireworks Web export a good way to create sites, and who won't be too hard to bring around to our way of doing things. So what am I actually asking? I'm interested in what you guys consider reasonable to expect from a graphic designer who also does some overflow html. What would you be looking for? What would you ask in the interview? Thanks for any ideas, K. --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer
Warning: rant. The very fact that this is even in question with any designer is an indication of how degraded the title has become since computers hit the industry. Design was and has always been about communication and functionality - my degree in 84-88 was 'Visual Communications', not 'web design' or 'making things look cool'. Another reason - excuse the plug - why the tagline of my company is 'Design That Works'. It annoys and frustrates me that the reputation and integrity of the design industry has been so ruined in the eyes of clients by the media (endless images of frustrated business people trying to contact their designers who are out skateboarding), software developers (buy this app and you'll instantly become a designer! No need to pay design agencies ever again!), the greed of the dot-com boom (I've been renovating bathrooms for ten years but I think I'll be a designer cause they make lots of money and you can work from home), fly-by-night colleges (Complete our two-week course and you'll be a web designer!) and the whole image of design being a cool and easy thing to do. End of rant! Peter On 01/04/2004, at 9:36 AM, Mark Stanton wrote: To the key character of a good web designer (apart from artistic talent) is that they respect their medium and their audience. If a designer shows any sign of getting upset about having their artist whims challenged by browser limitations or accessibility - don't hire them. x-tad-bigger /x-tad-biggerUniversal Head Design That Works. 7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore NSW 2048 Australia T (+612) 9517 1466 F (+612) 9565 4747 E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.universalhead.com
Re: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer
Amen to that brother. I agree with Christine and most of the others. Even if I take a billion art classes and devote the rest of my life to honing art skills, I will still be horrible compared to a slew of others whose design is immaculate but whose technical side is lacking. You can teach people HTML or CSS. It may take a while, but they'll catch on eventually. Teaching people art however is much harder. You're either good at design or you aren't. A person with combined skills is nice to have, but in most cases unless your studio is comprised of yourself and one other person who sleeps during their work shift, mostly not needed. Hire artists for artistic talent, not for tech. When you need a developer vice-versa that and follow again. Dual-talent is great for a one-man team. You'll accomplish more stylish pages by working to each other's weaknesses. I relate this to hiring a video game programmer and then telling that person on top of all their languages, they have to conceptualize and flesh out their own game characters. Art is best left to people that have a knack for it. But again, anyone can learn to program. -- Ryan Christie [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.theward.net Universal Head wrote: Warning: rant. The very fact that this is even in question with any designer is an indication of how degraded the title has become since computers hit the industry. Design was and has always been about communication and functionality - my degree in 84-88 was 'Visual Communications', not 'web design' or 'making things look cool'. Another reason - excuse the plug - why the tagline of my company is 'Design That Works'. It annoys and frustrates me that the reputation and integrity of the design industry has been so ruined in the eyes of clients by the media (endless images of frustrated business people trying to contact their designers who are out skateboarding), software developers (buy this app and you'll instantly become a designer! No need to pay design agencies ever again!), the greed of the dot-com boom (I've been renovating bathrooms for ten years but I think I'll be a designer cause they make lots of money and you can work from home), fly-by-night colleges (Complete our two-week course and you'll be a web designer!) and the whole image of design being a cool and easy thing to do. End of rant! Peter On 01/04/2004, at 9:36 AM, Mark Stanton wrote: To the key character of a good web designer (apart from artistic talent) is that they respect their medium and their audience. If a designer shows any sign of getting upset about having their artist whims challenged by browser limitations or accessibility - don't hire them. *Universal Head* Design That Works. 7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore NSW 2048 Australia T (+612) 9517 1466 F (+612) 9565 4747 E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.universalhead.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
