Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js help
Michael, Another point. All the sites I do have something in them updated at least once a year, so the copyright (current year) would reflect the year of last revision. On 3/2/07, Paul Novitski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Please generate the notice server-side -- or hard-code it into the html -- so it shows up for everyone viewing the content. In addition to Paul's technically valid note (with which I, a noscript user, wholeheartedly agree), there's also a legal one. The year in a copyright notice should be the year of last revision. Coding it in with JavaScript will keep it up to date when it may not be, which would be a false copyright claim. Not so good. Make it the year of last modification of the page - either the data presented by a server-side script, or hard-coded when the page is changed. Regards, Michael *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js help
Michael, Thank you for the information. If we were in a perfect world it just might be reasonable to try and be as legal as possible, but reality is that the copyright notice is almost useless in that it only gives a (false) sense of protection, to actualy be protected is another matter. As a professional photographer I have had occasion to pursue copyright violations. Yes, the law is on my side, but due to the cost of lawyers, the violaters being in a different country, difficulty collecting even if I win the case, etc. it's rarely worth pursuing. So, in good faith, I put the copyright on clients sites, but as the saying goes "it is as useful as tits on a bull". On 3/2/07, Paul Novitski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Please generate the notice server-side -- or hard-code it into the html -- so it shows up for everyone viewing the content. In addition to Paul's technically valid note (with which I, a noscript user, wholeheartedly agree), there's also a legal one. The year in a copyright notice should be the year of last revision. Coding it in with JavaScript will keep it up to date when it may not be, which would be a false copyright claim. Not so good. Make it the year of last modification of the page - either the data presented by a server-side script, or hard-coded when the page is changed. Regards, Michael *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js help
Paul, Unobtrusive javascript doesn't just mean separation of the script from the markup, it is also the use of javascript that doesn't break the page when scripting is disabled. http://onlinetools.org/articles/unobtrusivejavascript/chapter1.html Further thoughts on this statement: Leaving aside the copyright bit, I'm not so sure it is necessary to cater 100% to those without js as long as they are not being denied the primary content. An example: I am working on a script that generates a random quote in the right column of a page. If js is turned off nothing will show. However, that quote is not essential to the content of the site, it is just a bit of eye candy that the user with js turned off will not see and I don't see any reason to jump through hoops to try and give the non-js person something to see in its place. I am, however, trying to get away from js that does affect the primary content if turned off. It's like printing a book with a copyright notice that shows up only in artificial light but is invisible in daylight. To use your book example: desiging a site is like laying out a book according to a certian look and feel if published as designed, but having to take into consideration the fact that the possibility exists that it will be published with different fonts-at different sizes, no images, different "page" sizes, browser "bugs" etc., etc., etc. At some point we either draw some lines (often due to budget, client requests) or just publish "plain text" web pages. I have recently started trying to create the "perfect" template to use as a starting point for future web sites. I have been reading all the various arguments regarding font sizes, html vs xhtml served as text/html, etc., etc. only to discover that many of the "gurus" are now reversing themselves on what is "right" or ignoring some very strong and convincing arguments (backed up by examples) as to why their "method" is not "the" method to follow. It is a frustrating experience and in the end I'll probably just have to draw my own conclusions, as well as, lines. Bob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js help
On 3/2/07, Paul Novitski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Please generate the notice server-side -- or hard-code it into the html -- so it shows up for everyone viewing the content. In addition to Paul's technically valid note (with which I, a noscript user, wholeheartedly agree), there's also a legal one. The year in a copyright notice should be the year of last revision. Coding it in with JavaScript will keep it up to date when it may not be, which would be a false copyright claim. Not so good. Make it the year of last modification of the page - either the data presented by a server-side script, or hard-coded when the page is changed. Regards, Michael *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js help
Paul, I agree with you and as I am trying to learn this stuff I'm going one step at a time in the hopes that I can one day "drop the crutches" I needed an example of how to put a js string in a text string. The next step will be to try and figure out how (I have some examples that I am playing with) to replace existing text with that generated by the js. The idea being: hard coded in the page would be © 2003 - 2007 Myplace, (the 2003 being the year the site went live) then on Jan. 1st 2008 the js would replace the 2007 with 2008, but if js is turned off it would still say 2007 until such time as the hard coding can be changed. Is there a server side way of doing it without turning the whole site into PHP or ASP? Thanks, Bob Bob, I'm glad you're getting help with your javascript problem. However: Unobtrusive javascript doesn't just mean separation of the script from the markup, it is also the use of javascript that doesn't break the page when scripting is disabled. http://onlinetools.org/articles/unobtrusivejavascript/chapter1.html For example, a hyperlink that reloads the page with new content can be morphed by javascript to display the new content immediately without returning to the server. Regardless of whether javascript is enabled, the new content shows up. Unobtrusive javascript enhances the page but the page doesn't DEPEND on javascript. Your use of javascript to display a copyright notice means that the copyright won't be displayed when javascript isn't running. This isn't unobtrusive, it's obtrusive. It's like printing a book with a copyright notice that shows up only in artificial light but is invisible in daylight. I can't imagine you're protecting your client's intellectual property rights by generating the copyright notice in such a fragile way. Please generate the notice server- side -- or hard-code it into the html -- so it shows up for everyone viewing the content. Regards, Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js help
On 02/03/2007, at 6:34 PM, Paul Novitski wrote:
At 3/1/2007 02:32 AM, Bob Schwartz wrote:
I am in the process of converting my javascript library to
nonobtrusive js.
...
At 3/1/2007 06:44 AM, Bob Schwartz wrote:
I'll start with the easy one first:
var d=new Date();yr=d.getFullYear();if (yr!=2003)document.write
("© "+yr); myplace
which gives me: © 2007 myplace
Here's my pathetic attempt:
window.onload = function() {
var para = document.createElement("p");
... etc.
Bob,
I'm glad you're getting help with your javascript problem. However:
Unobtrusive javascript doesn't just mean separation of the script from
the markup, it is also the use of javascript that doesn't break the
page when scripting is disabled.
http://onlinetools.org/articles/unobtrusivejavascript/chapter1.html
For example, a hyperlink that reloads the page with new content can be
morphed by javascript to display the new content immediately without
returning to the server. Regardless of whether javascript is enabled,
the new content shows up. Unobtrusive javascript enhances the page
but the page doesn't DEPEND on javascript.
Your use of javascript to display a copyright notice means that the
copyright won't be displayed when javascript isn't running. This
isn't unobtrusive, it's obtrusive. It's like printing a book with a
copyright notice that shows up only in artificial light but is
invisible in daylight. I can't imagine you're protecting your
client's intellectual property rights by generating the copyright
notice in such a fragile way. Please generate the notice server-side
-- or hard-code it into the html -- so it shows up for everyone
viewing the content.
Regards,
Paul
__
Paul Novitski
Juniper Webcraft Ltd.
http://juniperwebcraft.com
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Thanks Paul,
Also consider in the head meta tags, a link to copyright statement:
And in the page body put somewhere
© myplace 2007.
Add the copyright statement for non javascript users
© myplace 2007.
Tim
The Editor
Heretic Press
http://www.hereticpress.com
Email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js help
At 3/1/2007 02:32 AM, Bob Schwartz wrote:
I am in the process of converting my javascript library to
nonobtrusive js.
...
At 3/1/2007 06:44 AM, Bob Schwartz wrote:
I'll start with the easy one first:
var d=new Date();yr=d.getFullYear();if
(yr!=2003)document.write ("© "+yr); myplace
which gives me: © 2007 myplace
Here's my pathetic attempt:
window.onload = function() {
var para = document.createElement("p");
... etc.
Bob,
I'm glad you're getting help with your javascript problem. However:
Unobtrusive javascript doesn't just mean
separation of the script from the markup, it is
also the use of javascript that doesn't break the
page when scripting is disabled.
http://onlinetools.org/articles/unobtrusivejavascript/chapter1.html
For example, a hyperlink that reloads the page
with new content can be morphed by javascript to
display the new content immediately without
returning to the server. Regardless of whether
javascript is enabled, the new content shows
up. Unobtrusive javascript enhances the page but
the page doesn't DEPEND on javascript.
Your use of javascript to display a copyright
notice means that the copyright won't be
displayed when javascript isn't running. This
isn't unobtrusive, it's obtrusive. It's like
printing a book with a copyright notice that
shows up only in artificial light but is
invisible in daylight. I can't imagine you're
protecting your client's intellectual property
rights by generating the copyright notice in such
a fragile way. Please generate the notice
server-side -- or hard-code it into the html --
so it shows up for everyone viewing the content.
Regards,
Paul
__
Paul Novitski
Juniper Webcraft Ltd.
http://juniperwebcraft.com
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Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js help
Nick Fitzsimons wrote:
On 1 Mar 2007, at 20:03:30, Mordechai Peller wrote:
Nick Fitzsimons wrote:
window.onload = function() {
var year = new Date().getFullYear();
var text = "© " + year + " myplace");
var p = document.createElement("p");
p.appendChild(document.createTextNode(text));
document.getElementById("testdiv").appendChild(p);
}
I would shorten it by one line since "year" isn't needed:
var text = "© " + (new Date()).getFullYear() + " myplace");
Agreed, but I tend to avoid early optimisation when writing examples,
as I think they should go step-by-step to make it easier for people to
follow. On the other hand, I'd completely abandoned that principle by
the last two lines :-)
In principle, I agree, but I also think it's better to give a more
proper example, so long as it remains clear. I wouldn't recommend using
as an example:
window.onload = function() {
document.getElementById("testdiv").appendChild(document.createElement("p").
appendChild(document.createTextNode("© " + new
Date().getFullYear() + " myplace"));
}
I'm not sure if I would even write some thing like that, though, it is
tempting at times. ;-)
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Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js help
On 1 Mar 2007, at 20:03:30, Mordechai Peller wrote:
Nick Fitzsimons wrote:
window.onload = function() {
var year = new Date().getFullYear();
var text = "© " + year + " myplace");
var p = document.createElement("p");
p.appendChild(document.createTextNode(text));
document.getElementById("testdiv").appendChild(p);
}
I would shorten it by one line since "year" isn't needed:
var text = "© " + (new Date()).getFullYear() + " myplace");
Agreed, but I tend to avoid early optimisation when writing examples,
as I think they should go step-by-step to make it easier for people
to follow. On the other hand, I'd completely abandoned that principle
by the last two lines :-)
Regards,
Nick.
--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/
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Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js help
Nick Fitzsimons wrote:
On 1 Mar 2007, at 14:44:59, Bob Schwartz wrote:
var d=new Date();yr=d.getFullYear();if
(yr!=2003)document.write("© "+yr); myplace
which gives me: © 2007 myplace
Here's my pathetic attempt:
window.onload = function() {
var para = document.createElement("p");
var txt1 = document.createTextNode("© ");
var year = new Date().getFullYear();
var now = year;
var txt2 = document.createTextNode()
var txt3 = document.createTextNode(" FIFe");
para.appendChild(txt1);
para.appendChild(txt2);
para.appendChild(txt3);
var testdiv = document.getElementById("testdiv");
testdiv.appendChild(para);
}
Not sure how "FIFe" fits into all this, but...
window.onload = function() {
var year = new Date().getFullYear();
var text = "© " + year + " myplace");
var p = document.createElement("p");
p.appendChild(document.createTextNode(text));
document.getElementById("testdiv").appendChild(p);
}
should do what the original code does. If somebody gets a time machine
up and running and goes back to 2003, well, they'll see the version of
the site from back then anyway, so that's OK :-)
Personally, I don't think that the copyright information should be be
generated client side. But putting that issue aside...
I would shorten it by one line since "year" isn't needed:
var text = "© " + (new Date()).getFullYear() + " myplace");
The parenthesis around "new Date()" aren't needed, but I thinks it makes
it a little clearer. While there are some parts of the order of
presidents that everyone should know, where "new" ranks versus "."
(they're equal) isn't as important.
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Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js help
On 1 Mar 2007, at 16:52:11, Bob Schwartz wrote:
Nick,
Thanks. Now that I see how you have done it, I may be able to guess
my way through the others I have to do.
Is there a "(" missing in the second line of your version?
No, but there's a ")" where there shouldn't be :-)
var text = "© " + year + " myplace");
should be
var text = "© " + year + " myplace";
although there's no harm in doing
var text = ("© " + year + " myplace");
as they both produce the same result.
Cheers,
Nick.
--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/
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Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js help
Rolf , Thanks for the info. On Mar 1, 2007, at 6:53 AM, Bob Schwartz wrote: On 01/03/07, Mordechai Peller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Bob Schwartz wrote: > I am in the process of converting my javascript library to > nonobtrusive js. > > Where could I go for help in converting these? Here, for one place. Can you be more specific about the problems? You might want to head over to the jQuery community - it's a very helpful community with a lot of unobtrusive js'ers About jQuery: http://www.jquery.com jQuery Discussion: http://www.nabble.com/JQuery-f15494.html Rolf *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js help
Nick,
Thanks. Now that I see how you have done it, I may be able to guess
my way through the others I have to do.
Is there a "(" missing in the second line of your version?
On 1 Mar 2007, at 14:44:59, Bob Schwartz wrote:
var d=new Date();yr=d.getFullYear();if (yr!=2003)document.write
("© "+yr); myplace
which gives me: © 2007 myplace
Here's my pathetic attempt:
window.onload = function() {
var para = document.createElement("p");
var txt1 = document.createTextNode("© ");
var year = new Date().getFullYear();
var now = year;
var txt2 = document.createTextNode()
var txt3 = document.createTextNode(" FIFe");
para.appendChild(txt1);
para.appendChild(txt2);
para.appendChild(txt3);
var testdiv = document.getElementById("testdiv");
testdiv.appendChild(para);
}
Not sure how "FIFe" fits into all this, but...
window.onload = function() {
var year = new Date().getFullYear();
var text = "© " + year + " myplace");
var p = document.createElement("p");
p.appendChild(document.createTextNode(text));
document.getElementById("testdiv").appendChild(p);
}
should do what the original code does. If somebody gets a time
machine up and running and goes back to 2003, well, they'll see the
version of the site from back then anyway, so that's OK :-)
HTH,
Nick.
--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/
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Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js help
On Mar 1, 2007, at 6:53 AM, Bob Schwartz wrote: On 01/03/07, Mordechai Peller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Bob Schwartz wrote: > I am in the process of converting my javascript library to > nonobtrusive js. > > Where could I go for help in converting these? Here, for one place. Can you be more specific about the problems? You might want to head over to the jQuery community - it's a very helpful community with a lot of unobtrusive js'ers About jQuery: http://www.jquery.com jQuery Discussion: http://www.nabble.com/JQuery-f15494.html Rolf *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js help
On 1 Mar 2007, at 14:44:59, Bob Schwartz wrote:
var d=new Date();yr=d.getFullYear();if (yr!=2003)document.write
("© "+yr); myplace
which gives me: © 2007 myplace
Here's my pathetic attempt:
window.onload = function() {
var para = document.createElement("p");
var txt1 = document.createTextNode("© ");
var year = new Date().getFullYear();
var now = year;
var txt2 = document.createTextNode()
var txt3 = document.createTextNode(" FIFe");
para.appendChild(txt1);
para.appendChild(txt2);
para.appendChild(txt3);
var testdiv = document.getElementById("testdiv");
testdiv.appendChild(para);
}
Not sure how "FIFe" fits into all this, but...
window.onload = function() {
var year = new Date().getFullYear();
var text = "© " + year + " myplace");
var p = document.createElement("p");
p.appendChild(document.createTextNode(text));
document.getElementById("testdiv").appendChild(p);
}
should do what the original code does. If somebody gets a time
machine up and running and goes back to 2003, well, they'll see the
version of the site from back then anyway, so that's OK :-)
HTH,
Nick.
--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/
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Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js help
Bob Schwartz wrote:
I am in the process of converting my javascript library to nonobtrusive
js.
Where could I go for help in converting these?
Perhaps related:
http://redotheweb.com/2007/02/28/unobtrusive-javascript-made-possible/
Bruce P
bkdesign
- Original Message -
From: "Bob Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js help
Thanks Mordechai,
I'll start with the easy one first:
var d=new Date();yr=d.getFullYear();if (yr!=2003)document.write
("© "+yr); myplace
which gives me: © 2007 myplace
Here's my pathetic attempt:
window.onload = function() {
var para = document.createElement("p");
var txt1 = document.createTextNode("© ");
var year = new Date().getFullYear();
var now = year;
var txt2 = document.createTextNode()
var txt3 = document.createTextNode(" FIFe");
para.appendChild(txt1);
para.appendChild(txt2);
para.appendChild(txt3);
var testdiv = document.getElementById("testdiv");
testdiv.appendChild(para);
}
and think I know where it is wrong
I need to get it to write the year (ex-document +yr) in the () of the
txt2 node, but I don't know how to do it.
I also don't think the if (yr!=2003) from the old js is necessary,
but I may be wrong
Bob Schwartz wrote:
I am in the process of converting my javascript library to nonobtrusive
js.
Where could I go for help in converting these?
Here, for one place. Can you be more specific about the problems?
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Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js help
Have one of them, DOM Scripting, which got me to where I am, I'll check out the other two. Thanks You will find these books very helpful http://www.amazon.co.uk/DOM-Scripting-Design-JavaScript-Document/dp/ 1590595335/ref=pd_ka_1/202-6135156-2275021? ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1172759335&sr=8-1 http://www.amazon.co.uk/JavaScript-Anthology-Essential-Tricks-Hacks/ dp/0975240269/ref=pd_ka_1/202-6135156-2275021? ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1172759353&sr=8-1 http://www.amazon.co.uk/JavaScript-Definitive-Guide-David-Flanagan/ dp/0596101996/ref=pd_ka_1/202-6135156-2275021? ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1172759366&sr=8-1 Darren On 01/03/07, Mordechai Peller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Bob Schwartz wrote: > I am in the process of converting my javascript library to > nonobtrusive js. > > Where could I go for help in converting these? Here, for one place. Can you be more specific about the problems? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js help
Thanks Mordechai,
I'll start with the easy one first:
var d=new Date();yr=d.getFullYear();if (yr!=2003)document.write
("© "+yr); myplace
which gives me: © 2007 myplace
Here's my pathetic attempt:
window.onload = function() {
var para = document.createElement("p");
var txt1 = document.createTextNode("© ");
var year = new Date().getFullYear();
var now = year;
var txt2 = document.createTextNode()
var txt3 = document.createTextNode(" FIFe");
para.appendChild(txt1);
para.appendChild(txt2);
para.appendChild(txt3);
var testdiv = document.getElementById("testdiv");
testdiv.appendChild(para);
}
and think I know where it is wrong
I need to get it to write the year (ex-document +yr) in the () of the
txt2 node, but I don't know how to do it.
I also don't think the if (yr!=2003) from the old js is necessary,
but I may be wrong
Bob Schwartz wrote:
I am in the process of converting my javascript library to
nonobtrusive js.
Where could I go for help in converting these?
Here, for one place. Can you be more specific about the problems?
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Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js help
You will find these books very helpful http://www.amazon.co.uk/DOM-Scripting-Design-JavaScript-Document/dp/1590595335/ref=pd_ka_1/202-6135156-2275021?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1172759335&sr=8-1 http://www.amazon.co.uk/JavaScript-Anthology-Essential-Tricks-Hacks/dp/0975240269/ref=pd_ka_1/202-6135156-2275021?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1172759353&sr=8-1 http://www.amazon.co.uk/JavaScript-Definitive-Guide-David-Flanagan/dp/0596101996/ref=pd_ka_1/202-6135156-2275021?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1172759366&sr=8-1 Darren On 01/03/07, Mordechai Peller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Bob Schwartz wrote: > I am in the process of converting my javascript library to > nonobtrusive js. > > Where could I go for help in converting these? Here, for one place. Can you be more specific about the problems? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js help
Bob Schwartz wrote: I am in the process of converting my javascript library to nonobtrusive js. Where could I go for help in converting these? Here, for one place. Can you be more specific about the problems? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] unobtrusive js help
I am in the process of converting my javascript library to nonobtrusive js. I bought a few books and with them, managed to convert most, but I still have a few that defy my very limited skills. Where could I go for help in converting these? Thanks. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
