RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sam Sherlock Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 2:17 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] H1 and the img tag ok - seo is a bit like voodoo to me the following sites seem to be contray to suggestion http://wordpress.org/ .com - h1 with text-indent: -1000px http://www.alistapart.com - h1 with img alt text same on various pages - a duplicate on all pages (AFAIS) http://www.zeldman.com - h1 with text-indent: -1000px Also I see plenty of sites that are marking the logo in a div rather than a h1 (Shaun Inman Todd Dominey) ie in accordance with the suggestions with Henrik's link and Darren's or am I looking at something the wrong way. Its late, my quick investigation maybe a little rash (perhaps I am jumping to conclusions) - anyway the more I see the more verity I find and more confused I get - S SEO _is_ voodoo. Never trust anyone who tells you that technique X is better for SEO than technique Y, (unless their name is Matt Cutts) Absolute answers to questions like this are not available; they are closely guarded secrets, will vary between different engines, and more importantly, will vary over time. If you want to do things the most accessible way, that is great, but don't let SEO rumours over-ride standards accessibility. Regards, Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag
Hi Schalk, Glad you raised this. We built a new section of our site a while ago which required different treatment from our normal text h1's. I looked at the image replacement route and found the approaches kludgy and overwrought. I ended up doing exactly what you said: h1a img src= alt=Page Heading ../h1 Looks fine, and the pages revert back to the standard h1 text style when images are off. You can see the results here: http://tinyurl.com/5b3bwg The image inside the h1 is simple, accessible and effective. Go with your gut :) Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] H1 and the img tag
You can just use text-indent to move the text off the screen and then put a background image into the H1 tag. -- Michael Turnwall for all your web code needs turnwall.net Schalk Neethling wrote: Hi there everyone, I was wondering. There is a general practice to use text replacement when it comes to company logo's on websites. If one does not want to use this practice, would there be any objection to wrapping the company logo image with an H1 one tag? I am thinking of this more in terms of the front page, on inner pages I would think the main topic of the page is the one that should be marked up with H1. What is your thoughts and would you recommend image replacement instead? Kind Regards, Schalk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag
Schalk Neethling [EMAIL PROTECTED] ink wired: There is a general practice to use text replacement when it comes to company logo's on websites. Not sure if I follow. Are you saying to use Proctor and Gamble rather than the PG logo? I don't see why that would be necessary for any web site. One can make an image tag accessible with alt and other metadata within the tag. would there be any objection to wrapping the company logo image with an H1 one tag? Do you mean to put the image with a large text side-by-side? One can do that I would imagine, but no one will knock down your door with a warrant if you do any of the aforementioned. Or, have I missed the point entirely? -- I made magic once. Now, the sofa is gone. http://blog.dwacon.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] H1 and the img tag
Thanks Paul, Makes sense to me as well. Regards, Schalk Paul Bennett wrote: Hi Schalk, Glad you raised this. We built a new section of our site a while ago which required different treatment from our normal text h1's. I looked at the image replacement route and found the approaches kludgy and overwrought. I ended up doing exactly what you said: h1a img src= alt=Page Heading ../h1 Looks fine, and the pages revert back to the standard h1 text style when images are off. You can see the results here: http://tinyurl.com/5b3bwg The image inside the h1 is simple, accessible and effective. Go with your gut :) Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.6/1627 - Release Date: 2008/08/22 06:48 AM *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] H1 and the img tag
Hi all, BTW, for those interested I am using the website at http://www.volume4.com/ as a case study in progressive enhancement and graceful degradation. Your feedback is much appreciated. Regards, Schalk Paul Bennett wrote: Hi Schalk, Glad you raised this. We built a new section of our site a while ago which required different treatment from our normal text h1's. I looked at the image replacement route and found the approaches kludgy and overwrought. I ended up doing exactly what you said: h1a img src= alt=Page Heading ../h1 Looks fine, and the pages revert back to the standard h1 text style when images are off. You can see the results here: http://tinyurl.com/5b3bwg The image inside the h1 is simple, accessible and effective. Go with your gut :) Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.6/1627 - Release Date: 2008/08/22 06:48 AM *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag
Hi Michael, While that is possible, unfortunately the h1 text doesn't display when images are off and css is still in use. This is the issue many image replacement techniques sought to address. Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag
I'm not understanding why you would use a logo/img as an h1 tag? Unless you wanted to use a nice anti-aliased font for the h1 text? If that's the case then I would just use sifr. SEO-wise you could only implement this on the homepage, otherwise you would have a duplicated h1 on all your web pages (providing the image had the same alt text). I wouldn't recommend using different alt text either when using the same image sitewide, as search engines may see that as keyword stuffing. I would keep them separate and have the alt text on the logo as your company name. Then have unique h1's as normal text on each page. I used to use a div with text in it for the logo, then css to add a background image and text indent to move the text off-screen. I changed back to an img tag as the alt text is more powerful for SEO purposes. Darren Lovelock Munky Online Web Design http://www.munkyonline.co.uk T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Bennett Sent: 25 August 2008 23:07 To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' Subject: RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag Hi Michael, While that is possible, unfortunately the h1 text doesn't display when images are off and css is still in use. This is the issue many image replacement techniques sought to address. Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] H1 and the img tag
Thanks everyone for your feedback, it definitely gives me something to think about. Regards, Schalk Darren Lovelock wrote: I'm not understanding why you would use a logo/img as an h1 tag? Unless you wanted to use a nice anti-aliased font for the h1 text? If that's the case then I would just use sifr. SEO-wise you could only implement this on the homepage, otherwise you would have a duplicated h1 on all your web pages (providing the image had the same alt text). I wouldn't recommend using different alt text either when using the same image sitewide, as search engines may see that as keyword stuffing. I would keep them separate and have the alt text on the logo as your company name. Then have unique h1's as normal text on each page. I used to use a div with text in it for the logo, then css to add a background image and text indent to move the text off-screen. I changed back to an img tag as the alt text is more powerful for SEO purposes. Darren Lovelock Munky Online Web Design http://www.munkyonline.co.uk T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Bennett Sent: 25 August 2008 23:07 To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' Subject: RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag Hi Michael, While that is possible, unfortunately the h1 text doesn't display when images are off and css is still in use. This is the issue many image replacement techniques sought to address. Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] H1 and the img tag
I agree, beware SEO-wise. If anyone's interested in seeing what black-hat SEOs are actually doing in this respect, read this: http://www.igenerator.com.au/blog/2008/08/top-10-web-design-firms-use-black-hat-seo/ Henrik Madsen Generator +61 8 9387 1250 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.igenerator.com.au On 26/08/2008, at 7:49 AM, Darren Lovelock wrote: I'm not understanding why you would use a logo/img as an h1 tag? Unless you wanted to use a nice anti-aliased font for the h1 text? If that's the case then I would just use sifr. SEO-wise you could only implement this on the homepage, otherwise you would have a duplicated h1 on all your web pages (providing the image had the same alt text). I wouldn't recommend using different alt text either when using the same image sitewide, as search engines may see that as keyword stuffing. I would keep them separate and have the alt text on the logo as your company name. Then have unique h1's as normal text on each page. I used to use a div with text in it for the logo, then css to add a background image and text indent to move the text off-screen. I changed back to an img tag as the alt text is more powerful for SEO purposes. Darren Lovelock Munky Online Web Design http://www.munkyonline.co.uk T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Bennett Sent: 25 August 2008 23:07 To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' Subject: RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag Hi Michael, While that is possible, unfortunately the h1 text doesn't display when images are off and css is still in use. This is the issue many image replacement techniques sought to address. Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] H1 and the img tag
Hey Man you got the wrong email address so you might want to double check and re-send it to the person you intended on On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 7:59 PM, Schalk Neethling [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Thanks everyone for your feedback, it definitely gives me something to think about. Regards, Schalk Darren Lovelock wrote: I'm not understanding why you would use a logo/img as an h1 tag? Unless you wanted to use a nice anti-aliased font for the h1 text? If that's the case then I would just use sifr. SEO-wise you could only implement this on the homepage, otherwise you would have a duplicated h1 on all your web pages (providing the image had the same alt text). I wouldn't recommend using different alt text either when using the same image sitewide, as search engines may see that as keyword stuffing. I would keep them separate and have the alt text on the logo as your company name. Then have unique h1's as normal text on each page. I used to use a div with text in it for the logo, then css to add a background image and text indent to move the text off-screen. I changed back to an img tag as the alt text is more powerful for SEO purposes. Darren Lovelock Munky Online Web Design http://www.munkyonline.co.uk T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Bennett Sent: 25 August 2008 23:07 To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' Subject: RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag Hi Michael, While that is possible, unfortunately the h1 text doesn't display when images are off and css is still in use. This is the issue many image replacement techniques sought to address. Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Joey Grasso (678)362-4652 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] H1 and the img tag
ok - seo is a bit like voodoo to me the following sites seem to be contray to suggestion http://wordpress.org/ .com - h1 with text-indent: -1000px http://www.alistapart.com - h1 with img alt text same on various pages - a duplicate on all pages (AFAIS) http://www.zeldman.com - h1 with text-indent: -1000px Also I see plenty of sites that are marking the logo in a div rather than a h1 (Shaun Inman Todd Dominey) ie in accordance with the suggestions with Henrik's link and Darren's or am I looking at something the wrong way. Its late, my quick investigation maybe a little rash (perhaps I am jumping to conclusions) - anyway the more I see the more verity I find and more confused I get - S 2008/8/26 Henrik Madsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] I agree, beware SEO-wise. If anyone's interested in seeing what black-hat SEOs are actually doing in this respect, read this: http://www.igenerator.com.au/blog/2008/08/top-10-web-design-firms-use-black-hat-seo/ http://www.igenerator.com.au Henrik Madsen *Generator* +61 8 9387 1250 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.igenerator.com.au On 26/08/2008, at 7:49 AM, Darren Lovelock wrote: I'm not understanding why you would use a logo/img as an h1 tag? Unless you wanted to use a nice anti-aliased font for the h1 text? If that's the case then I would just use sifr. SEO-wise you could only implement this on the homepage, otherwise you would have a duplicated h1 on all your web pages (providing the image had the same alt text). I wouldn't recommend using different alt text either when using the same image sitewide, as search engines may see that as keyword stuffing. I would keep them separate and have the alt text on the logo as your company name. Then have unique h1's as normal text on each page. I used to use a div with text in it for the logo, then css to add a background image and text indent to move the text off-screen. I changed back to an img tag as the alt text is more powerful for SEO purposes. Darren Lovelock Munky Online Web Design http://www.munkyonline.co.uk T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Bennett Sent: 25 August 2008 23:07 To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' Subject: RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag Hi Michael, While that is possible, unfortunately the h1 text doesn't display when images are off and css is still in use. This is the issue many image replacement techniques sought to address. Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Bennett Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 3:07 PM To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' Subject: RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag Hi Michael, While that is possible, unfortunately the h1 text doesn't display when images are off and css is still in use. This is the issue many image replacement techniques sought to address. Not an issue with this one: http://tjkdesign.com/articles/tip.asp -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] H1 and the img tag
Situations like this I tend to have the normal img and a separate text in h1 then use one of several methods to move the h1 out of sight (someone mentioned indenting the text as one example). Degrades fine when no css as the h1 tag just appears in the order set in the html. Jon Warner www.thepixelforge.net Schalk Neethling wrote: Hi there everyone, I was wondering. There is a general practice to use text replacement when it comes to company logo's on websites. If one does not want to use this practice, would there be any objection to wrapping the company logo image with an H1 one tag? I am thinking of this more in terms of the front page, on inner pages I would think the main topic of the page is the one that should be marked up with H1. What is your thoughts and would you recommend image replacement instead? Kind Regards, Schalk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.7/1631 - Release Date: 24/08/2008 12:15 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
