RE: [WSG] Learning The DOM
Jeremy, How much JavaScript do you know? Enough to get myself in trouble! Reading Stuarts' book has enlightened me to loads of really useful things, but I realise that as far as scripting languages go (compared to, say, PHP or VBScript) I am just scraping the surface of JavaScript. What kind of things about DOM Scripting need clarifying? Reinforcement of unobtrusive techniques, including best practices and standard code snippets. I'd like to see some more stuff about bullet-proofing scripts as well, particularly when it comes to slower computers and click-happy users. Do you want to see examples of cool stuff with a kind of DOM Scripting for dummies style explanation or more sober articles with a more geeky leaning? Bit of both, really. DOM Scripting has a fairly high built-in cool quotient, just because it makes things happen on the page. But learning why and how something works, not just what it does and how to copy it, is the key to becoming proficient in any area of development. Please share your personal experiences: what's your skill level with JavaScript compared to say, CSS or XHTML? What's your opinion of JavaScript? Compared to (X)HTML and CSS I'm not really very adept at JavaScript, however the few things I've done so far have been a lot easier to complete than I thought they would be. My opinion of JavaScript: the best days are yet to come. Chris ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Learning The DOM
And now, I'd like to turn the question around and ask everyone on this list what they'd like to see from the DSTF. How much JavaScript do you know? Quite a bit. I helped beta some of the LiveScript engine the Netscape boys whipped up in 95. Sadly, I was stuck in a be compatible with Netscape 4 environment for far too long and now have some severe DOM deficiencies. What kind of things about DOM Scripting need clarifying? There's a bunch of stuff out there along the lines of use this script to do X. There's some stuff about I've just made this standard way of doing things that solves a bunch of problems. There's also a bunch of stuff about here's a mega-library that solves all your monster DOM/AJAX/Web application problems. There's very little about growing, as a programmer/problem solver, from the using and hacking of found scripts, to architecting large organizational solutions. For example, most Unobtrusive examples end with this line to get things going: window.onload = init; For all the effort that goes into an Unobtrusive script to make it play nice with the HTML and CSS, this one line essentially declares There shalt not be any Other Script before Me. Beginners try to stitch two of these in the same page, and it fails and they think they broke it. If beginners are going to become advanced, they need to know more than code; they need to learn how to stitch scripts together to make systems, and systems to make applications. It's that mentality, that potential for hugeness in every minor script, that needs more support in more tutorials. I *don't* think this means we need another here's the architecture I use presentation -- I would cringe at the notion of an official, WaSP-authorized standard. Learning to think about architecture is different than using someone's pre-developed one. We need to teach the beginners how to think differently. Without that, DOM is just another set of methods to memorize. Do you want to see examples of cool stuff with a kind of DOM Scripting for dummies style explanation or more sober articles with a more geeky leaning? There may be a place for a For Dummies approach for the topic, but in my experience such approaches get the complete n00b going just far enough that they realize what they need to learn and they move on. Cool stuff is what gets the word out (e.g., techniques and articles cited in this very list), but I think the level of the learner should be assumed to be higher than that. Please share your personal experiences: what's your skill level with JavaScript compared to say, CSS or XHTML? What's your opinion of JavaScript? I run a team of coders who do all that stuff, and I'm their reference for getting it all to play nicely. To me, the separate languages are more than separating presentation, structural content, and behavior; it's about giving my team the tools to do their jobs without stepping on each other's toes. I see the three languages just starting to learn the steps of a very cool dance. Feel free to contact me off-list, if you wish to chat more. -- Ben Curtis : webwright bivia : a personal web studio http://www.bivia.com v: (818) 507-6613 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Learning The DOM
Jeremy, How much JavaScript do you know? Some, but not much. Mostly learnt from hacking other people's scripts to get them to do what I want them to do. I spend more time Googling than writing Javascript code from memory. What kind of things about DOM Scripting need clarifying? Examples of best practice, how to avoid browser inconsistencies, common coding patterns. Do you want to see examples of cool stuff with a kind of DOM Scripting for dummies style explanation or more sober articles with a more geeky leaning? More geeky for me please, if I use JavaScript I want to really know it in depth. Some cool stuff's fun in between though! Please share your personal experiences: what's your skill level with JavaScript compared to say, CSS or XHTML? JavaScript: Beginner, have written scripts but don't yet have a good feel for the language or the vocabulary. CSS/XHTML expert, have a good feel for the language, don't need references much any more, starting to delve deeper into more subtle discussions. What's your opinion of JavaScript? Very useful (almost essential?) for web application UIs, useful as icing on the cake for web sites (mainly forms). I try to build without it, then add it once the XHTML/CSS has done all it can. Cheers! Anthony -- www.fonant.com - hand-crafted web sites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Learning The DOM
Hi Jeremy I would like some tutorials on taking older scripts that require body onload() commands and make them work without placing the event in the body tag. I'd also like a tutorial on removing the javascript from pages and target the classes assigned to those elements instead. For instance, during @media, you mentioned a href= class=external could be styled by the css and the javascript could insert the open a new window behavior. Thanks Ted - And now, I'd like to turn the question around and ask everyone on this list what they'd like to see from the DSTF. How much JavaScript do you know? What kind of things about DOM Scripting need clarifying? Do you want to see examples of cool stuff with a kind of DOM Scripting for dummies style explanation or more sober articles with a more geeky leaning? Please share your personal experiences: what's your skill level with JavaScript compared to say, CSS or XHTML? What's your opinion of JavaScript? The answers you give will really, really help determine the direction that the Task Force takes. Thanks, Jeremy -- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Learning The DOM
Hi, The question was inspired by the article :) C On Jul 18, 2005, at 12:29 PM, Jeremy Keith wrote: By a bizarre cosmic coincidence, you've posed this question on the very day that the Web Standards Project announces the DOM Scripting Task Force: ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Learning The DOM
Mark's site is useful too. http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/ Eddie. http://blog.tn38.net/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Kennon Sent: 18 July 2005 19:29 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Learning The DOM Hi, As many of you, more skilled than I, carry the burden of spreading good practices, I'm calling upon you for resources for learning the DOM. I've an understanding of Javascript, ECMA-script and ACTIONSCRIPT for FLASH (I know I said the F word). So all that can please direct me to the appropriate URI's CK ___ An ideal is merely the projection, on an enormously enlarged scale, of some aspect of personality. -- Aldus Huxley ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Learning The DOM
Reference, not tutorial: http://www.mozilla.org/docs/dom/domref/ Paul At 11:29 AM 7/18/2005, Chris Kennon wrote: As many of you, more skilled than I, carry the burden of spreading good practices, I'm calling upon you for resources for learning the DOM. I've an understanding of Javascript, ECMA-script and ACTIONSCRIPT for FLASH (I know I said the F word). So all that can please direct me to the appropriate URI's ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Learning The DOM
How much JavaScript do you know? Next to none. What kind of things about DOM Scripting need clarifying? Potential pitfalls, how browser support differs and what constitutes 'behaviour'. Do you want to see examples of cool stuff with a kind of DOM Scripting for dummies style explanation or more sober articles with a more geeky leaning? Geek me up. Please share your personal experiences: what's your skill level with JavaScript compared to say, CSS or XHTML? What's your opinion of JavaScript? I'm reasonably confident with XHTML and CSS, but haven't really touched JavaScript yet. It's looming as an important aspect of my work, so I want to use it the 'right' way from the start. In the past I've frowned on JavaScript often because the sites that relied on it annoyed me. Now I think it has good applications for accessibility and seems more robust. It will always be 'icing on the cake' for our site, though, because we still support browsers (and users) who don't deal with it. The answers you give will really, really help determine the direction that the Task Force takes. I look forward to it. Thanks in advance for the effort. Damian Thanks, Jeremy -- Jeremy Keith a d a c t i o http://adactio.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Learning The DOM
And now, I'd like to turn the question around and ask everyone on this list what they'd like to see from the DSTF. How much JavaScript do you know? Minimal. I can read it enough to understand what a script is doing but I haven't written JavaScript from scratch yet. What kind of things about DOM Scripting need clarifying? Best practices, accessible JavaScript, graceful techniques for those UIs that have JS turned off. Do you want to see examples of cool stuff with a kind of DOM Scripting for dummies style explanation or more sober articles with a more geeky leaning? I like both... Please share your personal experiences: what's your skill level with JavaScript compared to say, CSS or XHTML? What's your opinion of JavaScript? I understand CSS/XHTML far better than I do JavaScript. I'm really new to JS, but more and more lately, I'm seeing that there can be some very useful things that JavaScript can do, after CSS/XHTML has hit the limit. JavaScript has its place, but if there's something that can be accomplished using CSS/XHTML, that should be the preferred option. The answers you give will really, really help determine the direction that the Task Force takes. Thanks, Jeremy ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
