Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature"
Thanks Mike, I see on 40 m band a bit different distribution of S/N values. In my case typical average S/N value is about 5 dB higher than yours and standard deviation is a bit below 10 dB, while in your case it is 8 dB. The interesting point is the -24 dB value. In your case the lower the less spots, I always have more spots on the -24 dB than at -23 dB. Never seen any spot below -24 dB, but I have filtered spots from the ALL.txt file as I have in those examples only messages that have been present in two ALL.txt files same time and callsign, also frequencies need to be closer to each other than 50 Hz. Was that histogram from ALL.txt or from contacts you have made? There are so few spots below -24 dB that those could be from false decodes as the presentation values are from -30 to 99 dB. Also some of the high values could be from false decodes. 73, Reino OH3mA From: Black Michael via wsjt-devel [mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net] Sent: maanantai 10. huhtikuuta 2023 17.00 To: Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel Cc: Black Michael Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" -24 is not the minimum SNR reported. -30 is. Below -24 is pretty rare though and is a big "knee"in the data. Here's a histogram from my station. Mike W9MDB 3 -27 23 -26 75 -25 2353 -24 3907 -23 8187 -22 16812 -21 28821 -20 41617 -19 49679 -18 54327 -17 56758 -16 56976 -15 55953 -14 54478 -13 52240 -12 50195 -11 47384 -10 44725 -9 42112 -8 38922 -7 36171 -6 33457 -5 30718 -4 28010 -3 25648 -2 23303 -1 21015 0 18789 1 16493 2 14505 3 12637 4 10915 5 9340 6 8041 7 6784 8 5697 9 4804 10 3982 11 3401 12 2743 13 2229 14 1724 15 1380 16 1051 17 796 18 606 19 433 20 313 21 244 22 173 23 110 24 75 25 48 26 38 27 30 28 26 29 13 30 8 31 10 32 1 33 2 34 1 35 2 36 12 38 2 39 5 40 1 42 1 43 1 45 1 47 1 48 1 49 1 52 1 57 1 58 1 59 1 60 1 61 2 62 1 63 2 64 On Monday, April 10, 2023 at 08:44:23 AM CDT, Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel wrote: Hi Sam, Thanks Sam, I am aware of that problem and for sure it affects to the "absolute" S/N values. There is another issue due to the limited dynamic range and that all S/N values below -24 dB are reported as -24 dB. I have partially tried to avoid the issue by only taking into calculation messages that are received by both receives. I also checked how much those measurements with one of the values reported as -24 dB (less than 1 % of all values) really affect to the calculated average and deviation values and there is a minor shift at one or two higher attenuation point, when I leave those out. 73, Reino OH3mA -Original Message- From: Sam W2JDB via wsjt-devel [mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net] Sent: maanantai 10. huhtikuuta 2023 14.38 To: wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Cc: Sam W2JDB Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Hi Reino, The one thing to be aware of when analyzing SNR is that since you can not account for the signals that you did not decode, those that are below the threshold, the mean will always be biased towards the positive side and those missing decodes invariable would have affected the variance and standard deviation values. 73, Sam W2JDB -Original Message- From: Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel To: 'WSJT software development' Cc: Reino Talarmo Sent: Mon, Apr 10, 2023 3:33 am Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Hi, Just as promised, I looked what happens, when I set waterfall from 200 Hz to 1500 Hz (just bit more). The measurement was a side result of a study how a narrower radio filter affects to the S/N values. I have two similar receivers and I feed the same antenna signal via a power divider to those receivers. I calculate using ALL.txt files differences of the S/N values for the same (common) messages. That removes transmit power and propagation from the equation. For the filtering study I calculate in 25 Hz slots the number of messages and an average and standard deviation of S/N differences. By this method the filter passband and out of band attenuation on quite wide range up to 60 dB on longer measurement times. The typical standard deviation is about 3 dB. Quite good for a S/N calculation that is not designed at all for this purpose. Also linearity seems to be better that in some earlier versions. Now the result: there is not a single decoding in 35 361 decoded messages above 1500 Hz. A related observation close to the waterfall edge. The standard deviation increases from 3.8 dB
Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature"
HI Reino, When I added the SNR analysis to my Alltext.exe program, I made sure that I also displayed the Hi and Low values. I wanted to compare those values relative to the mean and the 1 StdDev value, especially the low value. It really was an interesting exercise especially seeing the variance of the signal within a short time period. I never went as far as displaying it on as chart to actually see the distribution curve. Maybe one day. Anyway, good luck with your research. 73, Sam W2JDB -Original Message- From: Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel To: 'Black Michael' ; 'WSJT software development' Cc: Reino Talarmo Sent: Mon, Apr 10, 2023 10:15 am Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Hi Mike,Perhaps I need to do the same search. I remember that Bill (sk) mentioned that the -24 dB is used in WSJT-X for FT8 because the accuracy is so poor below that value, but may be changed. Not a big issue.73, Reino OH3mA From: Black Michael via wsjt-devel [mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net] Sent: maanantai 10. huhtikuuta 2023 17.00 To: Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel Cc: Black Michael Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" -24 is not the minimum SNR reported. -30 is. Below -24 is pretty rare though and is a big "knee"in the data.Here's a histogram from my station.Mike W9MDB 3 -27 23 -26 75 -25 2353 -24 3907 -23 8187 -22 16812 -21 28821 -20 41617 -19 49679 -18 54327 -17 56758 -16 56976 -15 55953 -14 54478 -13 52240 -12 50195 -11 47384 -10 44725 -9 42112 -8 38922 -7 36171 -6 33457 -5 30718 -4 28010 -3 25648 -2 23303 -1 21015 0 18789 1 16493 2 14505 3 12637 4 10915 5 9340 6 8041 7 6784 8 5697 9 4804 10 3982 11 3401 12 2743 13 2229 14 1724 15 1380 16 1051 17 796 18 606 19 433 20 313 21 244 22 173 23 110 24 75 25 48 26 38 27 30 28 26 29 13 30 8 31 10 32 1 33 2 34 1 35 2 36 12 38 2 39 5 40 1 42 1 43 1 45 1 47 1 48 1 49 1 52 1 57 1 58 1 59 1 60 1 61 2 62 1 63 2 64 On Monday, April 10, 2023 at 08:44:23 AM CDT, Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel wrote: Hi Sam, Thanks Sam, I am aware of that problem and for sure it affects to the "absolute" S/N values. There is another issue due to the limited dynamic range and that all S/N values below -24 dB are reported as -24 dB. I have partially tried to avoid the issue by only taking into calculation messages that are received by both receives. I also checked how much those measurements with one of the values reported as -24 dB (less than 1 % of all values) really affect to the calculated average and deviation values and there is a minor shift at one or two higher attenuation point, when I leave those out. 73, Reino OH3mA -Original Message- From: Sam W2JDB via wsjt-devel [mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net] Sent: maanantai 10. huhtikuuta 2023 14.38 To: wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Cc: Sam W2JDB Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Hi Reino, The one thing to be aware of when analyzing SNR is that since you can not account for the signals that you did not decode, those that are below the threshold, the mean will always be biased towards the positive side and those missing decodes invariable would have affected the variance and standard deviation values. 73, Sam W2JDB -Original Message- From: Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel To: 'WSJT software development' Cc: Reino Talarmo Sent: Mon, Apr 10, 2023 3:33 am Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Hi, Just as promised, I looked what happens, when I set waterfall from 200 Hz to 1500 Hz (just bit more). The measurement was a side result of a study how a narrower radio filter affects to the S/N values. I have two similar receivers and I feed the same antenna signal via a power divider to those receivers. I calculate using ALL.txt files differences of the S/N values for the same (common) messages. That removes transmit power and propagation from the equation. For the filtering study I calculate in 25 Hz slots the number of messages and an average and standard deviation of S/N differences. By this method the filter passband and out of band attenuation on quite wide range up to 60 dB on longer measurement times. The typical standard deviation is about 3 dB. Quite good for a S/N calculation that is not designed at all for this purpose. Also linearity seems to be better that in some earlier versions. Now the result: there is not a single decoding in 35 361 decoded messages above 1500 Hz. A related observation close to the waterfall edge. The
Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature"
Hi Mike, Perhaps I need to do the same search. I remember that Bill (sk) mentioned that the -24 dB is used in WSJT-X for FT8 because the accuracy is so poor below that value, but may be changed. Not a big issue. 73, Reino OH3mA From: Black Michael via wsjt-devel [mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net] Sent: maanantai 10. huhtikuuta 2023 17.00 To: Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel Cc: Black Michael Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" -24 is not the minimum SNR reported. -30 is. Below -24 is pretty rare though and is a big "knee"in the data. Here's a histogram from my station. Mike W9MDB 3 -27 23 -26 75 -25 2353 -24 3907 -23 8187 -22 16812 -21 28821 -20 41617 -19 49679 -18 54327 -17 56758 -16 56976 -15 55953 -14 54478 -13 52240 -12 50195 -11 47384 -10 44725 -9 42112 -8 38922 -7 36171 -6 33457 -5 30718 -4 28010 -3 25648 -2 23303 -1 21015 0 18789 1 16493 2 14505 3 12637 4 10915 5 9340 6 8041 7 6784 8 5697 9 4804 10 3982 11 3401 12 2743 13 2229 14 1724 15 1380 16 1051 17 796 18 606 19 433 20 313 21 244 22 173 23 110 24 75 25 48 26 38 27 30 28 26 29 13 30 8 31 10 32 1 33 2 34 1 35 2 36 12 38 2 39 5 40 1 42 1 43 1 45 1 47 1 48 1 49 1 52 1 57 1 58 1 59 1 60 1 61 2 62 1 63 2 64 On Monday, April 10, 2023 at 08:44:23 AM CDT, Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> > wrote: Hi Sam, Thanks Sam, I am aware of that problem and for sure it affects to the "absolute" S/N values. There is another issue due to the limited dynamic range and that all S/N values below -24 dB are reported as -24 dB. I have partially tried to avoid the issue by only taking into calculation messages that are received by both receives. I also checked how much those measurements with one of the values reported as -24 dB (less than 1 % of all values) really affect to the calculated average and deviation values and there is a minor shift at one or two higher attenuation point, when I leave those out. 73, Reino OH3mA -Original Message- From: Sam W2JDB via wsjt-devel [mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net] Sent: maanantai 10. huhtikuuta 2023 14.38 To: wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> Cc: Sam W2JDB mailto:w2...@aol.com> > Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Hi Reino, The one thing to be aware of when analyzing SNR is that since you can not account for the signals that you did not decode, those that are below the threshold, the mean will always be biased towards the positive side and those missing decodes invariable would have affected the variance and standard deviation values. 73, Sam W2JDB -Original Message- From: Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> > To: 'WSJT software development' mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> > Cc: Reino Talarmo mailto:reino.tala...@kolumbus.fi> > Sent: Mon, Apr 10, 2023 3:33 am Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Hi, Just as promised, I looked what happens, when I set waterfall from 200 Hz to 1500 Hz (just bit more). The measurement was a side result of a study how a narrower radio filter affects to the S/N values. I have two similar receivers and I feed the same antenna signal via a power divider to those receivers. I calculate using ALL.txt files differences of the S/N values for the same (common) messages. That removes transmit power and propagation from the equation. For the filtering study I calculate in 25 Hz slots the number of messages and an average and standard deviation of S/N differences. By this method the filter passband and out of band attenuation on quite wide range up to 60 dB on longer measurement times. The typical standard deviation is about 3 dB. Quite good for a S/N calculation that is not designed at all for this purpose. Also linearity seems to be better that in some earlier versions. Now the result: there is not a single decoding in 35 361 decoded messages above 1500 Hz. A related observation close to the waterfall edge. The standard deviation increases from 3.8 dB to 7.7 dB in the last 25 Hz slot. The increase starts at 1425 Hz slot. There is also 4.6 dB gain increase over that range. So there is some S/N calculation anomaly close to the band edge and unnatural high S/N values are seen close to band edge. Of course there is also the natu
Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature"
-24 is not the minimum SNR reported. -30 is. Below -24 is pretty rare though and is a big "knee"in the data.Here's a histogram from my station.Mike W9MDB 3 -27 23 -26 75 -25 2353 -24 3907 -23 8187 -22 16812 -21 28821 -20 41617 -19 49679 -18 54327 -17 56758 -16 56976 -15 55953 -14 54478 -13 52240 -12 50195 -11 47384 -10 44725 -9 42112 -8 38922 -7 36171 -6 33457 -5 30718 -4 28010 -3 25648 -2 23303 -1 21015 0 18789 1 16493 2 14505 3 12637 4 10915 5 9340 6 8041 7 6784 8 5697 9 4804 10 3982 11 3401 12 2743 13 2229 14 1724 15 1380 16 1051 17 796 18 606 19 433 20 313 21 244 22 173 23 110 24 75 25 48 26 38 27 30 28 26 29 13 30 8 31 10 32 1 33 2 34 1 35 2 36 12 38 2 39 5 40 1 42 1 43 1 45 1 47 1 48 1 49 1 52 1 57 1 58 1 59 1 60 1 61 2 62 1 63 2 64 On Monday, April 10, 2023 at 08:44:23 AM CDT, Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel wrote: Hi Sam, Thanks Sam, I am aware of that problem and for sure it affects to the "absolute" S/N values. There is another issue due to the limited dynamic range and that all S/N values below -24 dB are reported as -24 dB. I have partially tried to avoid the issue by only taking into calculation messages that are received by both receives. I also checked how much those measurements with one of the values reported as -24 dB (less than 1 % of all values) really affect to the calculated average and deviation values and there is a minor shift at one or two higher attenuation point, when I leave those out. 73, Reino OH3mA -Original Message- From: Sam W2JDB via wsjt-devel [mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net] Sent: maanantai 10. huhtikuuta 2023 14.38 To: wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Cc: Sam W2JDB Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Hi Reino, The one thing to be aware of when analyzing SNR is that since you can not account for the signals that you did not decode, those that are below the threshold, the mean will always be biased towards the positive side and those missing decodes invariable would have affected the variance and standard deviation values. 73, Sam W2JDB -Original Message- From: Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel To: 'WSJT software development' Cc: Reino Talarmo Sent: Mon, Apr 10, 2023 3:33 am Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Hi, Just as promised, I looked what happens, when I set waterfall from 200 Hz to 1500 Hz (just bit more). The measurement was a side result of a study how a narrower radio filter affects to the S/N values. I have two similar receivers and I feed the same antenna signal via a power divider to those receivers. I calculate using ALL.txt files differences of the S/N values for the same (common) messages. That removes transmit power and propagation from the equation. For the filtering study I calculate in 25 Hz slots the number of messages and an average and standard deviation of S/N differences. By this method the filter passband and out of band attenuation on quite wide range up to 60 dB on longer measurement times. The typical standard deviation is about 3 dB. Quite good for a S/N calculation that is not designed at all for this purpose. Also linearity seems to be better that in some earlier versions. Now the result: there is not a single decoding in 35 361 decoded messages above 1500 Hz. A related observation close to the waterfall edge. The standard deviation increases from 3.8 dB to 7.7 dB in the last 25 Hz slot. The increase starts at 1425 Hz slot. There is also 4.6 dB gain increase over that range. So there is some S/N calculation anomaly close to the band edge and unnatural high S/N values are seen close to band edge. Of course there is also the natural calculated S/N increase over the narrow passband due to missing noise outside the passband. That easily results to misinterpretation that a narrow RX bandwidth will enhance decoding probability, it is just the actual "wrong" noise bandwidth in the S/N calculation! 73, Reino OH3mA >From: Reino Talarmo [mailto:reino.tala...@kolumbus.fi] Sent: lauantai 8. huhtikuuta 2023 10.46 >Hi All, >You may discuss different issues! In FT8 mode Sam is correct as the signals >are reached only on the frequencies displayed on the waterfall. In JT65 and >Q65 the situation is different at there is a spinner called F Tol that defines >the search range independent of the waterfall range. All that is written in >the User Guide. If something else is happening, then it is extra for the >operator benefit! I’ll do a FT8 test in my next 24 h recording. 73, Reino OH3mA ___
Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature"
Hi Sam, Thanks Sam, I am aware of that problem and for sure it affects to the "absolute" S/N values. There is another issue due to the limited dynamic range and that all S/N values below -24 dB are reported as -24 dB. I have partially tried to avoid the issue by only taking into calculation messages that are received by both receives. I also checked how much those measurements with one of the values reported as -24 dB (less than 1 % of all values) really affect to the calculated average and deviation values and there is a minor shift at one or two higher attenuation point, when I leave those out. 73, Reino OH3mA -Original Message- From: Sam W2JDB via wsjt-devel [mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net] Sent: maanantai 10. huhtikuuta 2023 14.38 To: wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Cc: Sam W2JDB Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Hi Reino, The one thing to be aware of when analyzing SNR is that since you can not account for the signals that you did not decode, those that are below the threshold, the mean will always be biased towards the positive side and those missing decodes invariable would have affected the variance and standard deviation values. 73, Sam W2JDB -Original Message- From: Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel To: 'WSJT software development' Cc: Reino Talarmo Sent: Mon, Apr 10, 2023 3:33 am Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Hi, Just as promised, I looked what happens, when I set waterfall from 200 Hz to 1500 Hz (just bit more). The measurement was a side result of a study how a narrower radio filter affects to the S/N values. I have two similar receivers and I feed the same antenna signal via a power divider to those receivers. I calculate using ALL.txt files differences of the S/N values for the same (common) messages. That removes transmit power and propagation from the equation. For the filtering study I calculate in 25 Hz slots the number of messages and an average and standard deviation of S/N differences. By this method the filter passband and out of band attenuation on quite wide range up to 60 dB on longer measurement times. The typical standard deviation is about 3 dB. Quite good for a S/N calculation that is not designed at all for this purpose. Also linearity seems to be better that in some earlier versions. Now the result: there is not a single decoding in 35 361 decoded messages above 1500 Hz. A related observation close to the waterfall edge. The standard deviation increases from 3.8 dB to 7.7 dB in the last 25 Hz slot. The increase starts at 1425 Hz slot. There is also 4.6 dB gain increase over that range. So there is some S/N calculation anomaly close to the band edge and unnatural high S/N values are seen close to band edge. Of course there is also the natural calculated S/N increase over the narrow passband due to missing noise outside the passband. That easily results to misinterpretation that a narrow RX bandwidth will enhance decoding probability, it is just the actual "wrong" noise bandwidth in the S/N calculation! 73, Reino OH3mA >From: Reino Talarmo [mailto:reino.tala...@kolumbus.fi] Sent: lauantai 8. huhtikuuta 2023 10.46 >Hi All, >You may discuss different issues! In FT8 mode Sam is correct as the signals >are reached only on the frequencies displayed on the waterfall. In JT65 and >Q65 the situation is different at there is a spinner called F Tol that defines >the search range independent of the waterfall range. All that is written in >the User Guide. If something else is happening, then it is extra for the >operator benefit! I’ll do a FT8 test in my next 24 h recording. 73, Reino OH3mA ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature"
Hi Reino, The one thing to be aware of when analyzing SNR is that since you can not account for the signals that you did not decode, those that are below the threshold, the mean will always be biased towards the positive side and those missing decodes invariable would have affected the variance and standard deviation values. 73, Sam W2JDB -Original Message- From: Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel To: 'WSJT software development' Cc: Reino Talarmo Sent: Mon, Apr 10, 2023 3:33 am Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Hi, Just as promised, I looked what happens, when I set waterfall from 200 Hz to 1500 Hz (just bit more). The measurement was a side result of a study how a narrower radio filter affects to the S/N values. I have two similar receivers and I feed the same antenna signal via a power divider to those receivers. I calculate using ALL.txt files differences of the S/N values for the same (common) messages. That removes transmit power and propagation from the equation. For the filtering study I calculate in 25 Hz slots the number of messages and an average and standard deviation of S/N differences. By this method the filter passband and out of band attenuation on quite wide range up to 60 dB on longer measurement times. The typical standard deviation is about 3 dB. Quite good for a S/N calculation that is not designed at all for this purpose. Also linearity seems to be better that in some earlier versions. Now the result: there is not a single decoding in 35 361 decoded messages above 1500 Hz. A related observation close to the waterfall edge. The standard deviation increases from 3.8 dB to 7.7 dB in the last 25 Hz slot. The increase starts at 1425 Hz slot. There is also 4.6 dB gain increase over that range. So there is some S/N calculation anomaly close to the band edge and unnatural high S/N values are seen close to band edge. Of course there is also the natural calculated S/N increase over the narrow passband due to missing noise outside the passband. That easily results to misinterpretation that a narrow RX bandwidth will enhance decoding probability, it is just the actual "wrong" noise bandwidth in the S/N calculation! 73, Reino OH3mA >From: Reino Talarmo [mailto:reino.tala...@kolumbus.fi] Sent: lauantai 8. huhtikuuta 2023 10.46 >Hi All, >You may discuss different issues! In FT8 mode Sam is correct as the signals >are reached only on the frequencies displayed on the waterfall. In JT65 and >Q65 the situation is different at there is a spinner called F Tol that defines >the search range independent of the waterfall range. All that is written in >the User Guide. If something else is happening, then it is extra for the >operator benefit! I’ll do a FT8 test in my next 24 h recording. 73, Reino OH3mA ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature"
Hi, Just as promised, I looked what happens, when I set waterfall from 200 Hz to 1500 Hz (just bit more). The measurement was a side result of a study how a narrower radio filter affects to the S/N values. I have two similar receivers and I feed the same antenna signal via a power divider to those receivers. I calculate using ALL.txt files differences of the S/N values for the same (common) messages. That removes transmit power and propagation from the equation. For the filtering study I calculate in 25 Hz slots the number of messages and an average and standard deviation of S/N differences. By this method the filter passband and out of band attenuation on quite wide range up to 60 dB on longer measurement times. The typical standard deviation is about 3 dB. Quite good for a S/N calculation that is not designed at all for this purpose. Also linearity seems to be better that in some earlier versions. Now the result: there is not a single decoding in 35 361 decoded messages above 1500 Hz. A related observation close to the waterfall edge. The standard deviation increases from 3.8 dB to 7.7 dB in the last 25 Hz slot. The increase starts at 1425 Hz slot. There is also 4.6 dB gain increase over that range. So there is some S/N calculation anomaly close to the band edge and unnatural high S/N values are seen close to band edge. Of course there is also the natural calculated S/N increase over the narrow passband due to missing noise outside the passband. That easily results to misinterpretation that a narrow RX bandwidth will enhance decoding probability, it is just the actual "wrong" noise bandwidth in the S/N calculation! 73, Reino OH3mA >From: Reino Talarmo [mailto:reino.tala...@kolumbus.fi] Sent: lauantai 8. huhtikuuta 2023 10.46 >Hi All, >You may discuss different issues! In FT8 mode Sam is correct as the signals >are reached only on the frequencies displayed on the waterfall. In JT65 and >Q65 the situation is different at there is a spinner called F Tol that defines >the search range independent of the waterfall range. All that is written in >the User Guide. If something else is happening, then it is extra for the >operator benefit! I’ll do a FT8 test in my next 24 h recording. 73, Reino OH3mA ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature"
Just as a minor data point the waterfall does not necessarily need to fit the monitor. On my laptop on the shack I have the waterfall extended to over 4000 Hz and the rightmost portion is usually off my screen to the right. If I want to see what is up there I just drag the window to the left but I rarely need to do that. Not really relevant to the visually impaired I suppose but it is something a lot of ops might not think about. 73 -Jim NU0c On Sat, 8 Apr 2023 12:52:14 + (UTC) Sam W2JDB via wsjt-devel wrote: > the width of the waterfall to fit within the specs of their monitor ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature"
Thanks Reino. I was just about to respond when I saw your email. I actually had to write a special program for the blind hams so that the waterfall is setup up correctly. It actually allows them to set the start and width of the bandpass and it then updates all the values including the bin/pixels as well as the width of the waterfall to fit within the specs of their monitor so that wsjt-x decodes the entire bandpass. Had some real fun trying to decode the telemetry structure for it to work. 73, Sam W2JDB -Original Message- From: Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel To: 'WSJT software development' Cc: Reino Talarmo Sent: Sat, Apr 8, 2023 3:45 am Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Hi All,You may discuss different issues! In FT8 mode Sam is correct as the signals are reached only on the frequencies displayed on the waterfall. In JT65 and Q65 the situation is different at there is a spinner called F Tol that defines the search range independent of the waterfall range. All that is written in the User Guide. If something else is happening, then it is extra for the operator benefit! I’ll do a FT8 test in my next 24 h recording.73, Reino OH3mA From: k2txb--- via wsjt-devel [mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net] Sent: 8. huhtikuutata 2023 3:03 To: 'Sam W2JDB' ; 'WSJT software development' Cc: k2...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Hi Sam. Well, try it. It does work. The only requirement is to have the decode window width wide enough to cover the actual frequency that is being received. It does not matter how wide the waterfall display is. Of course, it is very helpful to be able to see the signal, so being able to decode outside of the window is of limited usefulness. But it can be done. Just got a message from another guy who said that I “hit the nail on the head”, hi. Anyway, good luck with it. My system is down right now for some antenna repairs and to try to fix an oscillating preamp. Hope to be back on the moon sometime in the next week or two. 73, Russ K2TXB From: Sam W2JDB via wsjt-devel Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 3:23 PM To: wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Cc: Sam W2JDB Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Hi Russ, I don't beleive WSJT-X will decode any messages beyond the visual representation on the wide waterfall. If the right hand side of the waterfall terminates at 2000 Hz, WSJT-X will not decode beyond that. That has been my experience. If your monitor resolution can not display a waterfall range of 200 - 2600 with bin/pixel set at 2, just increase it to 3 or higher as needed. 73, Sam W2JDB -Original Message- From: k2txb--- via wsjt-devel To: 'Black Michael' ; 'WSJT software development' Cc: k2...@comcast.net Sent: Wed, Apr 5, 2023 2:45 pm Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature"Sorry folks, I agree it would seem that way. But only because there is no way to set the decoding window if you cannot see it. I did not think of that, when I dashed off that message this morning. And actually, if you set the decoding window large enough, I still think it would decode signals outside the waterfall range. For example, I set the range to 1000, and center frequency to 1400 Hz. That will now decode anything from 400 to 2400 Hz. I still do not believe you need to be able to see it, to decode it. Also… I routinely run my system with bins/pixel set to 2. With the low end set to 200 Hz, it shows me everything up to 2600 Hz. That is almost always sufficient. Don’t see any advantage to asking for a default setting greater than that.Russ K2TXB From: Black Michael via wsjt-devel Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 12:47 PM To: k2txb--- via wsjt-devel Cc: Black Michael Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Not true -- you only decode what's in the waterfall. Mike W9MDB On Wednesday, April 5, 2023 at 11:41:35 AM CDT, k2txb--- via wsjt-devel wrote: Dwane, I am almost certain that your assumption in incorrect. For WSJT in general, it does not matter what the settings for the waterfall display are set to. They have nothing to do with decoding, they provide only visual signal recognition. So, if there is a decodable signal above the 1500 Hz it will still decode. It is much more important to make sure his receiver bandwidth is wide enough to pass the signal at that frequency. 73, Russ K2TXB -Original Message- From: Dwayne Sinclair via wsjt-devel Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 11:35 AM To: WSJT software development Cc: Dwayne Sinclair Subject: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Last night, I met an operator who was struggling with EME on 23CM after abandoning EME on the 70CM band. As soon as he started up
Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature"
Hi All, You may discuss different issues! In FT8 mode Sam is correct as the signals are reached only on the frequencies displayed on the waterfall. In JT65 and Q65 the situation is different at there is a spinner called F Tol that defines the search range independent of the waterfall range. All that is written in the User Guide. If something else is happening, then it is extra for the operator benefit! I’ll do a FT8 test in my next 24 h recording. 73, Reino OH3mA From: k2txb--- via wsjt-devel [mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net] Sent: 8. huhtikuutata 2023 3:03 To: 'Sam W2JDB' ; 'WSJT software development' Cc: k2...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Hi Sam. Well, try it. It does work. The only requirement is to have the decode window width wide enough to cover the actual frequency that is being received. It does not matter how wide the waterfall display is. Of course, it is very helpful to be able to see the signal, so being able to decode outside of the window is of limited usefulness. But it can be done. Just got a message from another guy who said that I “hit the nail on the head”, hi. Anyway, good luck with it. My system is down right now for some antenna repairs and to try to fix an oscillating preamp. Hope to be back on the moon sometime in the next week or two. 73, Russ K2TXB From: Sam W2JDB via wsjt-devel mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> > Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 3:23 PM To: wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> Cc: Sam W2JDB mailto:w2...@aol.com> > Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Hi Russ, I don't beleive WSJT-X will decode any messages beyond the visual representation on the wide waterfall. If the right hand side of the waterfall terminates at 2000 Hz, WSJT-X will not decode beyond that. That has been my experience. If your monitor resolution can not display a waterfall range of 200 - 2600 with bin/pixel set at 2, just increase it to 3 or higher as needed. 73, Sam W2JDB -Original Message- From: k2txb--- via wsjt-devel mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> > To: 'Black Michael' mailto:mdblac...@yahoo.com> >; 'WSJT software development' mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> > Cc: k2...@comcast.net <mailto:k2...@comcast.net> Sent: Wed, Apr 5, 2023 2:45 pm Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Sorry folks, I agree it would seem that way. But only because there is no way to set the decoding window if you cannot see it. I did not think of that, when I dashed off that message this morning. And actually, if you set the decoding window large enough, I still think it would decode signals outside the waterfall range. For example, I set the range to 1000, and center frequency to 1400 Hz. That will now decode anything from 400 to 2400 Hz. I still do not believe you need to be able to see it, to decode it. Also… I routinely run my system with bins/pixel set to 2. With the low end set to 200 Hz, it shows me everything up to 2600 Hz. That is almost always sufficient. Don’t see any advantage to asking for a default setting greater than that. Russ K2TXB From: Black Michael via wsjt-devel mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> > Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 12:47 PM To: k2txb--- via wsjt-devel mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> > Cc: Black Michael mailto:mdblac...@yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Not true -- you only decode what's in the waterfall. Mike W9MDB On Wednesday, April 5, 2023 at 11:41:35 AM CDT, k2txb--- via wsjt-devel mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> > wrote: Dwane, I am almost certain that your assumption in incorrect. For WSJT in general, it does not matter what the settings for the waterfall display are set to. They have nothing to do with decoding, they provide only visual signal recognition. So, if there is a decodable signal above the 1500 Hz it will still decode. It is much more important to make sure his receiver bandwidth is wide enough to pass the signal at that frequency. 73, Russ K2TXB -Original Message- From: Dwayne Sinclair via wsjt-devel mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> > Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 11:35 AM To: WSJT software development mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> > Cc: Dwayne Sinclair mailto:dwayne_sincl...@me.com> > Subject: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Last night, I met an operator who was struggling with EME on 23CM after abandoning EME on the 70CM band. As soon as he started up WSJT-X, I noted his waterfall display was set to Bins/Pixel 2 instead of 5/6 and less th
Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature"
Hi Sam. Well, try it. It does work. The only requirement is to have the decode window width wide enough to cover the actual frequency that is being received. It does not matter how wide the waterfall display is. Of course, it is very helpful to be able to see the signal, so being able to decode outside of the window is of limited usefulness. But it can be done. Just got a message from another guy who said that I “hit the nail on the head”, hi. Anyway, good luck with it. My system is down right now for some antenna repairs and to try to fix an oscillating preamp. Hope to be back on the moon sometime in the next week or two. 73, Russ K2TXB From: Sam W2JDB via wsjt-devel Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 3:23 PM To: wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Cc: Sam W2JDB Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Hi Russ, I don't beleive WSJT-X will decode any messages beyond the visual representation on the wide waterfall. If the right hand side of the waterfall terminates at 2000 Hz, WSJT-X will not decode beyond that. That has been my experience. If your monitor resolution can not display a waterfall range of 200 - 2600 with bin/pixel set at 2, just increase it to 3 or higher as needed. 73, Sam W2JDB -Original Message- From: k2txb--- via wsjt-devel mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> > To: 'Black Michael' mailto:mdblac...@yahoo.com> >; 'WSJT software development' mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> > Cc: k2...@comcast.net <mailto:k2...@comcast.net> Sent: Wed, Apr 5, 2023 2:45 pm Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Sorry folks, I agree it would seem that way. But only because there is no way to set the decoding window if you cannot see it. I did not think of that, when I dashed off that message this morning. And actually, if you set the decoding window large enough, I still think it would decode signals outside the waterfall range. For example, I set the range to 1000, and center frequency to 1400 Hz. That will now decode anything from 400 to 2400 Hz. I still do not believe you need to be able to see it, to decode it. Also… I routinely run my system with bins/pixel set to 2. With the low end set to 200 Hz, it shows me everything up to 2600 Hz. That is almost always sufficient. Don’t see any advantage to asking for a default setting greater than that. Russ K2TXB From: Black Michael via wsjt-devel mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> > Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 12:47 PM To: k2txb--- via wsjt-devel mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> > Cc: Black Michael mailto:mdblac...@yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Not true -- you only decode what's in the waterfall. Mike W9MDB On Wednesday, April 5, 2023 at 11:41:35 AM CDT, k2txb--- via wsjt-devel mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> > wrote: Dwane, I am almost certain that your assumption in incorrect. For WSJT in general, it does not matter what the settings for the waterfall display are set to. They have nothing to do with decoding, they provide only visual signal recognition. So, if there is a decodable signal above the 1500 Hz it will still decode. It is much more important to make sure his receiver bandwidth is wide enough to pass the signal at that frequency. 73, Russ K2TXB -Original Message- From: Dwayne Sinclair via wsjt-devel mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> > Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 11:35 AM To: WSJT software development mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> > Cc: Dwayne Sinclair mailto:dwayne_sincl...@me.com> > Subject: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Last night, I met an operator who was struggling with EME on 23CM after abandoning EME on the 70CM band. As soon as he started up WSJT-X, I noted his waterfall display was set to Bins/Pixel 2 instead of 5/6 and less than 1500Hz was displayed on the screen. All decodes 1500Hz and up were not decoded. I am pretty sure this was the cause of his issues on 70CM together with his current issues on 23CM and the “lack of decodes” as he complained. I have to ask - Can we fix this so that irrespective of what the Waterfall window displays, decodes will still occur for the full 3KHz or whatever value is specified in advanced options. 73 Dwayne AB6A ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel _
Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature"
Hi Russ, You seems to hit the nail. I did not checked modes JT65 and Q65 and those use a frequency tolerance in User Guide 10.4. Center: *For modes lacking a multi-decode feature, or when Enable VHF/UHF/Microwave features has been checked on the File → Settings → General tab, the F Tol control sets a frequency tolerance range over which decoding is attempted, centered on the Rx frequency. It does not mention the waterfall at all, hi! 73, Reino OH3mA From: k2txb--- via wsjt-devel [mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net] Sent: 5. huhtikuutata 2023 21:46 To: 'Black Michael' ; 'WSJT software development' Cc: k2...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Sorry folks, I agree it would seem that way. But only because there is no way to set the decoding window if you cannot see it. I did not think of that, when I dashed off that message this morning. And actually, if you set the decoding window large enough, I still think it would decode signals outside the waterfall range. For example, I set the range to 1000, and center frequency to 1400 Hz. That will now decode anything from 400 to 2400 Hz. I still do not believe you need to be able to see it, to decode it. Also… I routinely run my system with bins/pixel set to 2. With the low end set to 200 Hz, it shows me everything up to 2600 Hz. That is almost always sufficient. Don’t see any advantage to asking for a default setting greater than that. Russ K2TXB From: Black Michael via wsjt-devel mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> > Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 12:47 PM To: k2txb--- via wsjt-devel mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> > Cc: Black Michael mailto:mdblac...@yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Not true -- you only decode what's in the waterfall. Mike W9MDB On Wednesday, April 5, 2023 at 11:41:35 AM CDT, k2txb--- via wsjt-devel mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> > wrote: Dwane, I am almost certain that your assumption in incorrect. For WSJT in general, it does not matter what the settings for the waterfall display are set to. They have nothing to do with decoding, they provide only visual signal recognition. So, if there is a decodable signal above the 1500 Hz it will still decode. It is much more important to make sure his receiver bandwidth is wide enough to pass the signal at that frequency. 73, Russ K2TXB -Original Message- From: Dwayne Sinclair via wsjt-devel mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> > Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 11:35 AM To: WSJT software development mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> > Cc: Dwayne Sinclair mailto:dwayne_sincl...@me.com> > Subject: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Last night, I met an operator who was struggling with EME on 23CM after abandoning EME on the 70CM band. As soon as he started up WSJT-X, I noted his waterfall display was set to Bins/Pixel 2 instead of 5/6 and less than 1500Hz was displayed on the screen. All decodes 1500Hz and up were not decoded. I am pretty sure this was the cause of his issues on 70CM together with his current issues on 23CM and the “lack of decodes” as he complained. I have to ask - Can we fix this so that irrespective of what the Waterfall window displays, decodes will still occur for the full 3KHz or whatever value is specified in advanced options. 73 Dwayne AB6A ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature"
Hi Russ, I don't beleive WSJT-X will decode any messages beyond the visual representation on the wide waterfall. If the right hand side of the waterfall terminates at 2000 Hz, WSJT-X will not decode beyond that. That has been my experience. If your monitor resolution can not display a waterfall range of 200 - 2600 with bin/pixel set at 2, just increase it to 3 or higher as needed. 73, Sam W2JDB -Original Message- From: k2txb--- via wsjt-devel To: 'Black Michael' ; 'WSJT software development' Cc: k2...@comcast.net Sent: Wed, Apr 5, 2023 2:45 pm Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Sorry folks, I agree it would seem that way. But only because there is no way to set the decoding window if you cannot see it. I did not think of that, when I dashed off that message this morning. And actually, if you set the decoding window large enough, I still think it would decode signals outside the waterfall range. For example, I set the range to 1000, and center frequency to 1400 Hz. That will now decode anything from 400 to 2400 Hz. I still do not believe you need to be able to see it, to decode it. Also… I routinely run my system with bins/pixel set to 2. With the low end set to 200 Hz, it shows me everything up to 2600 Hz. That is almost always sufficient. Don’t see any advantage to asking for a default setting greater than that.Russ K2TXB From: Black Michael via wsjt-devel Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 12:47 PM To: k2txb--- via wsjt-devel Cc: Black Michael Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Not true -- you only decode what's in the waterfall. Mike W9MDB On Wednesday, April 5, 2023 at 11:41:35 AM CDT, k2txb--- via wsjt-devel wrote: Dwane, I am almost certain that your assumption in incorrect. For WSJT in general, it does not matter what the settings for the waterfall display are set to. They have nothing to do with decoding, they provide only visual signal recognition. So, if there is a decodable signal above the 1500 Hz it will still decode. It is much more important to make sure his receiver bandwidth is wide enough to pass the signal at that frequency. 73, Russ K2TXB -Original Message- From: Dwayne Sinclair via wsjt-devel Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 11:35 AM To: WSJT software development Cc: Dwayne Sinclair Subject: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Last night, I met an operator who was struggling with EME on 23CM after abandoning EME on the 70CM band. As soon as he started up WSJT-X, I noted his waterfall display was set to Bins/Pixel 2 instead of 5/6 and less than 1500Hz was displayed on the screen. All decodes 1500Hz and up were not decoded. I am pretty sure this was the cause of his issues on 70CM together with his current issues on 23CM and the “lack of decodes” as he complained. I have to ask - Can we fix this so that irrespective of what the Waterfall window displays, decodes will still occur for the full 3KHz or whatever value is specified in advanced options. 73 Dwayne AB6A ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature"
Sorry folks, I agree it would seem that way. But only because there is no way to set the decoding window if you cannot see it. I did not think of that, when I dashed off that message this morning. And actually, if you set the decoding window large enough, I still think it would decode signals outside the waterfall range. For example, I set the range to 1000, and center frequency to 1400 Hz. That will now decode anything from 400 to 2400 Hz. I still do not believe you need to be able to see it, to decode it. Also… I routinely run my system with bins/pixel set to 2. With the low end set to 200 Hz, it shows me everything up to 2600 Hz. That is almost always sufficient. Don’t see any advantage to asking for a default setting greater than that. Russ K2TXB From: Black Michael via wsjt-devel Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 12:47 PM To: k2txb--- via wsjt-devel Cc: Black Michael Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Not true -- you only decode what's in the waterfall. Mike W9MDB On Wednesday, April 5, 2023 at 11:41:35 AM CDT, k2txb--- via wsjt-devel mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> > wrote: Dwane, I am almost certain that your assumption in incorrect. For WSJT in general, it does not matter what the settings for the waterfall display are set to. They have nothing to do with decoding, they provide only visual signal recognition. So, if there is a decodable signal above the 1500 Hz it will still decode. It is much more important to make sure his receiver bandwidth is wide enough to pass the signal at that frequency. 73, Russ K2TXB -Original Message- From: Dwayne Sinclair via wsjt-devel mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> > Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 11:35 AM To: WSJT software development mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> > Cc: Dwayne Sinclair mailto:dwayne_sincl...@me.com> > Subject: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Last night, I met an operator who was struggling with EME on 23CM after abandoning EME on the 70CM band. As soon as he started up WSJT-X, I noted his waterfall display was set to Bins/Pixel 2 instead of 5/6 and less than 1500Hz was displayed on the screen. All decodes 1500Hz and up were not decoded. I am pretty sure this was the cause of his issues on 70CM together with his current issues on 23CM and the “lack of decodes” as he complained. I have to ask - Can we fix this so that irrespective of what the Waterfall window displays, decodes will still occur for the full 3KHz or whatever value is specified in advanced options. 73 Dwayne AB6A ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature"
Just to add, It would seem to be the intuitive fix would be Start and End Hz as options in the controls or Settings Menu defaulting to 0Hz and 3000Hz and not affected by Bin/Pixel setting or how far the window is stretched. 73 Dwayne AB6A > On Apr 5, 2023, at 10:19 AM, Dwayne Sinclair wrote: > > I agree but it is not intuitive that Start Hz is an option in the controls, > but end Hz is controlled by Bin Pixels and how far the op stretches the > window. > > 73 Dwayne AB6A ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature"
I agree but it is not intuitive that Start Hz is an option in the controls, but end Hz is controlled by Bin Pixels and how far the op stretches the window. 73 Dwayne AB6A > On Apr 5, 2023, at 10:13 AM, Reino Talarmo via wsjt-devel > wrote: > > Perhaps also reading User Guide 6.2. Wide Graph Settings should help: > > 'It is important to set appropriate lower and upper audio frequency limits > for the Wide Graph because these limits define the FT8 decoder’s search > window.' > > 73, Reino OH3mA ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature"
Perhaps also reading User Guide 6.2. Wide Graph Settings should help: 'It is important to set appropriate lower and upper audio frequency limits for the Wide Graph because these limits define the FT8 decoder’s search window.' 73, Reino OH3mA > -Original Message- > From: Dwayne Sinclair via wsjt-devel [mailto:wsjt- > de...@lists.sourceforge.net] > Sent: 5. huhtikuutata 2023 19:59 > To: WSJT software development > Cc: Dwayne Sinclair > Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" > > Go ahead and test for yourself - Change bin/pixel to 1 displaying say only > the first 600Hz and see what your decodes look like. > > 73 Dwayne AB6A > > > On Apr 5, 2023, at 9:37 AM, k2txb--- via wsjt-devel de...@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: > > > > Dwane, I am almost certain that your assumption in incorrect. For WSJT > in general, it does not matter what the settings for the waterfall display > are set to. They have nothing to do with decoding, they provide only > visual signal recognition. So, if there is a decodable signal above the 1500 > Hz it will still decode. It is much more important to make sure his receiver > bandwidth is wide enough to pass the signal at that frequency. > > > > 73, Russ K2TXB > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Dwayne Sinclair via wsjt-devel > > Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 11:35 AM > > To: WSJT software development > > Cc: Dwayne Sinclair > > Subject: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" > > > > Last night, I met an operator who was struggling with EME on 23CM after > abandoning EME on the 70CM band. As soon as he started up WSJT-X, I > noted his waterfall display was set to Bins/Pixel 2 instead of 5/6 and less > than 1500Hz was displayed on the screen. All decodes 1500Hz and up > were not decoded. I am pretty sure this was the cause of his issues on > 70CM together with his current issues on 23CM and the “lack of decodes” > as he complained. > > > > I have to ask - Can we fix this so that irrespective of what the Waterfall > window displays, decodes will still occur for the full 3KHz or whatever > value is specified in advanced options. > > > > 73 Dwayne AB6A > > > > ___ > > wsjt-devel mailing list > > wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel > > > > > > > > ___ > > wsjt-devel mailing list > > wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel > > > > ___ > wsjt-devel mailing list > wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature"
Go ahead and test for yourself - Change bin/pixel to 1 displaying say only the first 600Hz and see what your decodes look like. 73 Dwayne AB6A > On Apr 5, 2023, at 9:37 AM, k2txb--- via wsjt-devel > wrote: > > Dwane, I am almost certain that your assumption in incorrect. For WSJT in > general, it does not matter what the settings for the waterfall display are > set to. They have nothing to do with decoding, they provide only visual > signal recognition. So, if there is a decodable signal above the 1500 Hz it > will still decode. It is much more important to make sure his receiver > bandwidth is wide enough to pass the signal at that frequency. > > 73, Russ K2TXB > > -Original Message- > From: Dwayne Sinclair via wsjt-devel > Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 11:35 AM > To: WSJT software development > Cc: Dwayne Sinclair > Subject: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" > > Last night, I met an operator who was struggling with EME on 23CM after > abandoning EME on the 70CM band. As soon as he started up WSJT-X, I noted his > waterfall display was set to Bins/Pixel 2 instead of 5/6 and less than 1500Hz > was displayed on the screen. All decodes 1500Hz and up were not decoded. I am > pretty sure this was the cause of his issues on 70CM together with his > current issues on 23CM and the “lack of decodes” as he complained. > > I have to ask - Can we fix this so that irrespective of what the Waterfall > window displays, decodes will still occur for the full 3KHz or whatever value > is specified in advanced options. > > 73 Dwayne AB6A > > ___ > wsjt-devel mailing list > wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel > > > > ___ > wsjt-devel mailing list > wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature"
Not true -- you only decode what's in the waterfall. Mike W9MDB On Wednesday, April 5, 2023 at 11:41:35 AM CDT, k2txb--- via wsjt-devel wrote: Dwane, I am almost certain that your assumption in incorrect. For WSJT in general, it does not matter what the settings for the waterfall display are set to. They have nothing to do with decoding, they provide only visual signal recognition. So, if there is a decodable signal above the 1500 Hz it will still decode. It is much more important to make sure his receiver bandwidth is wide enough to pass the signal at that frequency. 73, Russ K2TXB -Original Message- From: Dwayne Sinclair via wsjt-devel Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 11:35 AM To: WSJT software development Cc: Dwayne Sinclair Subject: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Last night, I met an operator who was struggling with EME on 23CM after abandoning EME on the 70CM band. As soon as he started up WSJT-X, I noted his waterfall display was set to Bins/Pixel 2 instead of 5/6 and less than 1500Hz was displayed on the screen. All decodes 1500Hz and up were not decoded. I am pretty sure this was the cause of his issues on 70CM together with his current issues on 23CM and the “lack of decodes” as he complained. I have to ask - Can we fix this so that irrespective of what the Waterfall window displays, decodes will still occur for the full 3KHz or whatever value is specified in advanced options. 73 Dwayne AB6A ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature"
Dwane, I am almost certain that your assumption in incorrect. For WSJT in general, it does not matter what the settings for the waterfall display are set to. They have nothing to do with decoding, they provide only visual signal recognition. So, if there is a decodable signal above the 1500 Hz it will still decode. It is much more important to make sure his receiver bandwidth is wide enough to pass the signal at that frequency. 73, Russ K2TXB -Original Message- From: Dwayne Sinclair via wsjt-devel Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 11:35 AM To: WSJT software development Cc: Dwayne Sinclair Subject: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature" Last night, I met an operator who was struggling with EME on 23CM after abandoning EME on the 70CM band. As soon as he started up WSJT-X, I noted his waterfall display was set to Bins/Pixel 2 instead of 5/6 and less than 1500Hz was displayed on the screen. All decodes 1500Hz and up were not decoded. I am pretty sure this was the cause of his issues on 70CM together with his current issues on 23CM and the “lack of decodes” as he complained. I have to ask - Can we fix this so that irrespective of what the Waterfall window displays, decodes will still occur for the full 3KHz or whatever value is specified in advanced options. 73 Dwayne AB6A ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
Re: [wsjt-devel] Truncated Waterfall Display "Feature"
I would tend to agree that the default window size should be 3000Hz as opposed to what is now.Then let the user adjust it from there. I've seen many operators with incorrect window size usually because the default is too narrow. Mike W9MDB On Wednesday, April 5, 2023 at 10:43:31 AM CDT, Dwayne Sinclair via wsjt-devel wrote: Last night, I met an operator who was struggling with EME on 23CM after abandoning EME on the 70CM band. As soon as he started up WSJT-X, I noted his waterfall display was set to Bins/Pixel 2 instead of 5/6 and less than 1500Hz was displayed on the screen. All decodes 1500Hz and up were not decoded. I am pretty sure this was the cause of his issues on 70CM together with his current issues on 23CM and the “lack of decodes” as he complained. I have to ask - Can we fix this so that irrespective of what the Waterfall window displays, decodes will still occur for the full 3KHz or whatever value is specified in advanced options. 73 Dwayne AB6A ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
