Re: [Xastir] More system questions

[Lee Bengston]

On 6/27/07, Curt, WE7U <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On Wed, 27 Jun 2007, Jim Tolbert wrote:

> You guys have been a fantastic help!   And best of all, I have not
> been flamed yet for stupid questions!!!

Are you asking for that???  Some of us have extensive experience
with surviving such discussions on other lists...




I don't know about flaming, but I think WE7U is still looking for an
opportunity to say RTFM, so just make sure the answers aren't in the Wiki.
 :-)
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Re: [Xastir] More system questions

[Tom Russo]

On Wed, Jun 27, 2007 at 07:08:43PM -0500, we recorded a bogon-computron 
collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing:
> 
>  If you are going to go the radio/tnc route, I would set up the units to also 
>  be digipeaters as well. This would give the low level signals a better 
>  chance to propagate. I do not know if the D7A will digi as well, so I would 
>  look into it.

The D7 doesn't digipeat, as I understand it.  

You'd need something like the TT4 or the Tracker2, neither of which is
available other than as beta test yet, or some other full TNC+radio 
set-up.

Digi-in-a-tracker is still a technique that has, IMHO, yet to be proven.  It's
got promise, but is still an experiment that hasn't been done widely.

A portable digipeater-in-a-box, however, can be deployed at a mission as
needed --- it needn't be man-portable, can be in a rugged waterproof 
container, and with a mast, big battery, and beefy mobile rig could be
very effective.  Our SAR Support team has one and can deploy it as needed 
(which in our case isn't often).

I am still of the opinion that the SARn-N idea could work, but has the
potential to jam up a channel quickly as every field team digipeats every
other team's data.  I am waiting to be proven wrong, at which point I'll
gleefully eat my words.  At this point I have no way of doinng the 
experiment myself, as none of the readily available tracker units can do 
it anyway.  

>  This is not going to be cheap if you go with off-the-shelf solutions. 
>  Cobbling would save much but if the capability is not there, you will have 
>  to bite the bullet.

With you on that one.  Equipping an entire 12-team organization and building
up a usable infrastructure's gonna be a pricey endeavor, and trying to cobble
together on a budget will be difficult.

>  Jim Tolbert wrote:
> > Thanks Tom  Yes... We live in the undeveloped boonies.  But then, we 
> > like it that way .
> >
> > The one digipeater that is in out county is AAOKU-WL and 4min.  What does 
> > that tell us?

-- 
Tom RussoKM5VY   SAR502   DM64ux  http://www.swcp.com/~russo/
Tijeras, NM  QRPL#1592 K2#398  SOC#236 AHTB#1 http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?DDTNM
"And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is
 one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh,
 oooh, the sky is the limit!"  --- The Tick
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Re: [Xastir] More system questions

[Tom Russo]

On Wed, Jun 27, 2007 at 05:52:42PM -0500, we recorded a bogon-computron 
collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing:
>  Thanks Tom  Yes... We live in the undeveloped boonies.  But then, we 
>  like it that way .

Nod.  It's that way out where I live, too.  The digi that's nearest me
is the only thing I can hear directly, and when it can't hear me I get 
nowhere even with 5W.

>  The one digipeater that is in out county is AAOKU-WL and 4min.  What does 
>  that tell us?

That's not a digi.  The -WL things are winlink nodes advertising their
presence.  The nearest digi to you is more like 20 miles away.

The 4min notation means it was last heard four minutes prior to my taking that
snapshot.

>  Tom Russo wrote:
> > On Wed, Jun 27, 2007 at 03:37:52PM -0600, we recorded a bogon-computron 
> > collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing:
> >   
> >> You could also set up an Xastir station to listen using an APRS-IS server
> >> (nternet only) fairly quickly, and look for the digis on your map.  To
> >> do this, you'd want to  use a filter that specified "r/45/-92/500" or 
> >> something to give a nice big range of stations near you.  I'm actually 
> >> looking at such a thing right now.  In the few seconds I've been watching,
> >> I see that there are quite a few digipeaters, but they are all advertising
> >> fairly short ranges (through their PHG settings, which may or may not 
> >> really
> >> indicate their effectiveness, as it's a very crude measure).
> >>
> >> I'll take a screen shot of your area viewed in xastir in an hour or so 
> >> after
> >> I've captured more data.  I'll put it on my web site and post here with 
> >> the
> >> URL.
> >> 
> >
> > I think I've got all that I can get, since I've already heard from the
> > digis that are closest to you.  I have a snapshot, it's at
> >   
> >
> > Look at the pale green circles --- they represent the digipeaters at the 
> > center
> > (where the star is) and their advertised ranges.  The southeast portion of
> > Wisconsin appears saturated with digis with overlapping ranges, but your
> > western portion is thinner.
> >
> > It looks like your county is pretty much without a local digipeater at all.
> > The nearest digis to the location you sent are advertising ranges that 
> > don't quite cover the distance between your location and theirs.  You might
> > have trouble hitting those digis during SAR missions, but you'll want to 
> > try out a tracker in your normal operation area before concluding that.
> > You could get a single D7 radio, wire it up to a GPS, and use a path like
> > WIDE2-2 to see if you get digipeated --- you could monitor the whole thing
> > on findu without having any other infrastructure to see if you're making it
> > to a digipeater and an Igate.  Not a solid test (you could be reaching a 
> > digi
> > but not an igate), but you could still tell if you're getting digipeated 
> > because
> > the D7 would report when it hears its own packets back.  
> > If your local infrastructure isn't built up enough then you might need some 
> > assistance to get a new digi installed nearer to your operations area, or
> > you could deploy a portable digipeater on missions --- yet another piece of
> > equipment to purchase and maintain, but perhaps easier than getting a 
> > full-time
> > digi set up so that it reaches where you need it.
> >
> > Curt likes the idea of using Tracker2 units to deploy a bunch of 
> > man-portable
> > digis into mission areas.  I'm still skeptical, but it could work well.  
> > How's
> > that going, Curt? (ignoring the fact that Tracker2 is still not ready for
> > prime time, so doesn't answer Jim's needs yet)
> >
> >   
> 
>  -- 
>  Jim & Peggy Tolbert
> 
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
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-- 
Tom RussoKM5VY   SAR502   DM64ux  http://www.swcp.com/~russo/
Tijeras, NM  QRPL#1592 K2#398  SOC#236 AHTB#1 http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?DDTNM
"And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is
 one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh,
 oooh, the sky is the limit!"  --- The Tick
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Re: [Xastir] More system questions

[Richard Polivka, N6NKO]

In checking the station details, he/she is showing a range of 20 miles. 
Remember, that number is based on a clear shot. Burnett County is not 
that flat and is tree laden. The effective range for the station will be 
less. It appears that in a 50 mile radius of Burnett, I count four 
stations advertised as being active on APRS.


The idea of just using a transmit-only tracker was a idea to keep it 
small and lightweight. A full TNC, battery, radio, and reasonable 
antenna will be cumbersome for the person to carry. The key here is 
ANTENNA. You gain on  both ends, RX and TX. Probably the best way to do 
an antenna is to use a long rubber ducky antenna and use the metal frame 
of a backpack as the ground plane.  Plus, it is easier to carry day 
supplies and the metal frame is far easier on the back than a softshell 
pack.


If you are going to go the radio/tnc route, I would set up the units to 
also be digipeaters as well. This would give the low level signals a 
better chance to propagate. I do not know if the D7A will digi as well, 
so I would look into it.


This is not going to be cheap if you go with off-the-shelf solutions. 
Cobbling would save much but if the capability is not there, you will 
have to bite the bullet.


Good luck.

73 from 807,

Richard, N6NKO

Jim Tolbert wrote:
Thanks Tom  Yes... We live in the undeveloped boonies.  But then, 
we like it that way .


The one digipeater that is in out county is AAOKU-WL and 4min.  What 
does that tell us?


Thanks ... jt

Tom Russo wrote:
On Wed, Jun 27, 2007 at 03:37:52PM -0600, we recorded a 
bogon-computron collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing:
 
You could also set up an Xastir station to listen using an APRS-IS 
server

(nternet only) fairly quickly, and look for the digis on your map.  To
do this, you'd want to  use a filter that specified "r/45/-92/500" 
or something to give a nice big range of stations near you.  I'm 
actually looking at such a thing right now.  In the few seconds I've 
been watching,
I see that there are quite a few digipeaters, but they are all 
advertising
fairly short ranges (through their PHG settings, which may or may 
not really

indicate their effectiveness, as it's a very crude measure).

I'll take a screen shot of your area viewed in xastir in an hour or 
so after
I've captured more data.  I'll put it on my web site and post here 
with the

URL.



I think I've got all that I can get, since I've already heard from the
digis that are closest to you.  I have a snapshot, it's at
  

Look at the pale green circles --- they represent the digipeaters at 
the center
(where the star is) and their advertised ranges.  The southeast 
portion of

Wisconsin appears saturated with digis with overlapping ranges, but your
western portion is thinner.

It looks like your county is pretty much without a local digipeater 
at all.
The nearest digis to the location you sent are advertising ranges 
that don't quite cover the distance between your location and 
theirs.  You might
have trouble hitting those digis during SAR missions, but you'll want 
to try out a tracker in your normal operation area before concluding 
that.
You could get a single D7 radio, wire it up to a GPS, and use a path 
like
WIDE2-2 to see if you get digipeated --- you could monitor the whole 
thing
on findu without having any other infrastructure to see if you're 
making it
to a digipeater and an Igate.  Not a solid test (you could be 
reaching a digi
but not an igate), but you could still tell if you're getting 
digipeated because
the D7 would report when it hears its own packets back. 
If your local infrastructure isn't built up enough then you might 
need some assistance to get a new digi installed nearer to your 
operations area, or
you could deploy a portable digipeater on missions --- yet another 
piece of
equipment to purchase and maintain, but perhaps easier than getting a 
full-time

digi set up so that it reaches where you need it.

Curt likes the idea of using Tracker2 units to deploy a bunch of 
man-portable
digis into mission areas.  I'm still skeptical, but it could work 
well.  How's
that going, Curt? (ignoring the fact that Tracker2 is still not ready 
for

prime time, so doesn't answer Jim's needs yet)

  



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Re: [Xastir] System cost options

[Alex Carver]

--- "Curt, WE7U" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007, Alex Carver wrote:
> 
> > Don't forget also that a combination FRS/GMRS
> device
> > like a Rino has a stock, low gain antenna that is
> not
> > replaceable in order to maintain compliance with
> the
> > FCC rules governing FRS.  So the MicroTrak wins
> > because it's got a replaceable antenna that could
> use
> > something like a long whip or even a high gain
> Yagi.
> > The D7s also have this advantage over the Rinos.
> 
> My feeling is that 300mW isn't enough in the woods. 
> I'm aiming for
> somewhere around 5-8W for a portable tracker setup. 
> Once the
> digipeater-in-a-backpack sort of thing takes off, we
> _might_ be able
> to get by with less, perhaps 1-5W.

Well, my point wasn't that the 300mW is great, but
that the ability to replace the antenna with something
better is a greater improvement over the fixed rubber
antenna on the Rino.


 

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Re: [Xastir] More system questions

[Jim Tolbert]

Thanks Tom  Yes... We live in the undeveloped boonies.  But then, we 
like it that way .


The one digipeater that is in out county is AAOKU-WL and 4min.  What 
does that tell us?


Thanks ... jt

Tom Russo wrote:

On Wed, Jun 27, 2007 at 03:37:52PM -0600, we recorded a bogon-computron collision of 
the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing:
  

You could also set up an Xastir station to listen using an APRS-IS server
(nternet only) fairly quickly, and look for the digis on your map.  To
do this, you'd want to  use a filter that specified "r/45/-92/500" or 
something to give a nice big range of stations near you.  I'm actually 
looking at such a thing right now.  In the few seconds I've been watching,

I see that there are quite a few digipeaters, but they are all advertising
fairly short ranges (through their PHG settings, which may or may not really
indicate their effectiveness, as it's a very crude measure).

I'll take a screen shot of your area viewed in xastir in an hour or so after
I've captured more data.  I'll put it on my web site and post here with the
URL.



I think I've got all that I can get, since I've already heard from the
digis that are closest to you.  I have a snapshot, it's at
  

Look at the pale green circles --- they represent the digipeaters at the center
(where the star is) and their advertised ranges.  The southeast portion of
Wisconsin appears saturated with digis with overlapping ranges, but your
western portion is thinner.

It looks like your county is pretty much without a local digipeater at all.
The nearest digis to the location you sent are advertising ranges that 
don't quite cover the distance between your location and theirs.  You might
have trouble hitting those digis during SAR missions, but you'll want to 
try out a tracker in your normal operation area before concluding that.

You could get a single D7 radio, wire it up to a GPS, and use a path like
WIDE2-2 to see if you get digipeated --- you could monitor the whole thing
on findu without having any other infrastructure to see if you're making it
to a digipeater and an Igate.  Not a solid test (you could be reaching a digi
but not an igate), but you could still tell if you're getting digipeated because
the D7 would report when it hears its own packets back.  

If your local infrastructure isn't built up enough then you might need some 
assistance to get a new digi installed nearer to your operations area, or

you could deploy a portable digipeater on missions --- yet another piece of
equipment to purchase and maintain, but perhaps easier than getting a full-time
digi set up so that it reaches where you need it.

Curt likes the idea of using Tracker2 units to deploy a bunch of man-portable
digis into mission areas.  I'm still skeptical, but it could work well.  How's
that going, Curt? (ignoring the fact that Tracker2 is still not ready for
prime time, so doesn't answer Jim's needs yet)

  


--
Jim & Peggy Tolbert

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [Xastir] More system questions

[Curt, WE7U]

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007, Tom Russo wrote:

> Curt likes the idea of using Tracker2 units to deploy a bunch of man-portable
> digis into mission areas.  I'm still skeptical, but it could work well.  How's
> that going, Curt? (ignoring the fact that Tracker2 is still not ready for
> prime time, so doesn't answer Jim's needs yet)

I not only like the idea, I'm heavily promoting it to all of those
out there that CAN'T GET THE EQUIPMENT TO MAKE MY IDEA WORK!  hi hi

I have three Tracker2's in my hands, two of the OT2M's of different
vintages (I think an 'A' and a 'C'), and one of the S/M Tracker2's
that Scott had a problem with the oscillator with (but my board is
fine at present).  Enough to deploy three SAR backpack trackers that
are capable of preemptive digipeating using the SARn-N flooding
protocol.

Of course I don't have the time or support at home to go on SAR
missions at present, so my whole grand experiment is on hold.
Indefinitely.

Yea, I know:  Wah.

Hopefully Scott will find time to get either the combined
6W-Radio/Tracker2 products out, or the Tracker2 through-hole TNC's,
or the Tracker2 S/M TNC's.  There's also the T2-135 S/M TNC's that
fit inside the Alinco DR-135T mobile radios, but those aren't
suitable for backpack trackers and therefore I'm not as interested
in those.  They'd be good for SAR vehicles though, and probably for
the ICP.

Then there's the TinyTrak4 project which is also in beta-test, and
might have the capability in software to do similar things someday.
Worth keeping an eye on.

--
Curt, WE7U.   APRS Client Comparisons: http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
"Lotto:A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
"The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"
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Re: [Xastir] More system questions

[Tom Russo]

On Wed, Jun 27, 2007 at 03:37:52PM -0600, we recorded a bogon-computron 
collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing:
> 
> You could also set up an Xastir station to listen using an APRS-IS server
> (nternet only) fairly quickly, and look for the digis on your map.  To
> do this, you'd want to  use a filter that specified "r/45/-92/500" or 
> something to give a nice big range of stations near you.  I'm actually 
> looking at such a thing right now.  In the few seconds I've been watching,
> I see that there are quite a few digipeaters, but they are all advertising
> fairly short ranges (through their PHG settings, which may or may not really
> indicate their effectiveness, as it's a very crude measure).
> 
> I'll take a screen shot of your area viewed in xastir in an hour or so after
> I've captured more data.  I'll put it on my web site and post here with the
> URL.

I think I've got all that I can get, since I've already heard from the
digis that are closest to you.  I have a snapshot, it's at
  

Look at the pale green circles --- they represent the digipeaters at the center
(where the star is) and their advertised ranges.  The southeast portion of
Wisconsin appears saturated with digis with overlapping ranges, but your
western portion is thinner.

It looks like your county is pretty much without a local digipeater at all.
The nearest digis to the location you sent are advertising ranges that 
don't quite cover the distance between your location and theirs.  You might
have trouble hitting those digis during SAR missions, but you'll want to 
try out a tracker in your normal operation area before concluding that.
You could get a single D7 radio, wire it up to a GPS, and use a path like
WIDE2-2 to see if you get digipeated --- you could monitor the whole thing
on findu without having any other infrastructure to see if you're making it
to a digipeater and an Igate.  Not a solid test (you could be reaching a digi
but not an igate), but you could still tell if you're getting digipeated because
the D7 would report when it hears its own packets back.  

If your local infrastructure isn't built up enough then you might need some 
assistance to get a new digi installed nearer to your operations area, or
you could deploy a portable digipeater on missions --- yet another piece of
equipment to purchase and maintain, but perhaps easier than getting a full-time
digi set up so that it reaches where you need it.

Curt likes the idea of using Tracker2 units to deploy a bunch of man-portable
digis into mission areas.  I'm still skeptical, but it could work well.  How's
that going, Curt? (ignoring the fact that Tracker2 is still not ready for
prime time, so doesn't answer Jim's needs yet)

-- 
Tom RussoKM5VY   SAR502   DM64ux  http://www.swcp.com/~russo/
Tijeras, NM  QRPL#1592 K2#398  SOC#236 AHTB#1 http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?DDTNM
"And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is
 one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh,
 oooh, the sky is the limit!"  --- The Tick
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Re: [Xastir] More system questions

[Tom Russo]

On Wed, Jun 27, 2007 at 12:30:13PM -0700, we recorded a bogon-computron 
collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing:
> On Wed, 27 Jun 2007, Curt, WE7U wrote:
> 
> > I blew it, those are WinLink stations, not APRS stations.  Try this
> > one instead:
> >
> > 
> 
> FWIW:  The "CW" stations are citizen's weather stations, which may
> or may not be amateur radio stations (typically not).  Ignore those
> when trying to figure out how many APRS'ers are in your area.
> 
> Also:  People can be attached to the internet without being on the
> radio at all.  Some of the APRS'ers are probably in that mode.  If
> you click on each station and look at the raw packet, if you see
> "TCPIP" or "TCPXX" in the header portion, they are internet-only
> stations.  KC0EPW is in that category.  The header of the packet
> extends to/through the first ':' character.

If you look specifically for digipeaters (six-pointed stars as the symbol)
in the "near.cgi" output you'll get a better feel for the infrastructure
near you.  'Course it's hard to tell really how effectively they cover
your area without knowing details of how they're placed.

You could also set up an Xastir station to listen using an APRS-IS server
(nternet only) fairly quickly, and look for the digis on your map.  To
do this, you'd want to  use a filter that specified "r/45/-92/500" or 
something to give a nice big range of stations near you.  I'm actually 
looking at such a thing right now.  In the few seconds I've been watching,
I see that there are quite a few digipeaters, but they are all advertising
fairly short ranges (through their PHG settings, which may or may not really
indicate their effectiveness, as it's a very crude measure).

I'll take a screen shot of your area viewed in xastir in an hour or so after
I've captured more data.  I'll put it on my web site and post here with the
URL.

-- 
Tom RussoKM5VY   SAR502   DM64ux  http://www.swcp.com/~russo/
Tijeras, NM  QRPL#1592 K2#398  SOC#236 AHTB#1 http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?DDTNM
"And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is
 one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh,
 oooh, the sky is the limit!"  --- The Tick
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Re: [Xastir] More system questions

[Steve Friis]

Jim Tolbert wrote:
You guys have been a fantastic help!   And best of all, I have not 
been flamed yet for stupid questions!!!
The only stupid question(s) are those that go un-asked!!! Glad you are 
here. What ever the guru's like Kurt, Tom and Jerry share with you will 
benefit all of us.


As a base, I am in the process of downloading OpenSUSE Linux and will 
then download Xastir for Linux.


The following Tom's suggestion that Xastir can see and record a 
combination of things, beg borrow steal (or worst case buy ) 
units to try to see what works best. Someone noted that use of the 
radio / GPS units depended on the local APRS infrastructure and how 
it's loaded and if there is access to digipeaters.


How do I determine:

   *

 local APRS infrastructure 
   *


 how the local APRS infrastructure is loaded 
   *


 if there is access to digipeaters.

As usual, MANY THANX!!. jt



If you have access to a TNC, a radio and PC, you could monitor the 
packets for a while. You also could get Xastir up and running on a PC, 
and set up the software switches to only monitor RF traffic. Look on the 
screen as Xastir prints out the location of each station heard. You can 
then look to see if any of them are digi's.


Steve/WM5Z
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Re: [Xastir] More system questions

[Matt Werner]

I am located in Duluth and may be able to help you further if you
need.  Email me directly if you like.

73 - Matt
KB0KQA


On 6/27/07, Jim Tolbert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

We are in Burnett County, Wisconsin, USA The county's limits are N46.159
to N45.641 and W92.034 to W92.886.

I am in Siren, Wisconsin 54872

Curt, WE7U wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Jun 2007, Jim Tolbert wrote:
>
>
>> How do I determine:
>>
>> * local APRS infrastructure
>> * how the local APRS infrastructure is loaded
>> * if there is access to digipeaters.
>>
>
> #1 and #3 can probably be reasonably answered by prowling around
> aprsworld.net or findu.com for your area.  First find a station near
> you, then ask one or both of them to show other stations nearby.
>
> As far as the loading, tell us where you're at roughly and someone
> on here may have direct experience in your area.
>
> --
> Curt, WE7U.   APRS Client Comparisons: http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
> "Lotto:A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
> "Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
> "The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"
>
>
>

Jim Tolbert

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [Xastir] More system questions

[Curt, WE7U]

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007, Curt, WE7U wrote:

> I blew it, those are WinLink stations, not APRS stations.  Try this
> one instead:
>
> 

FWIW:  The "CW" stations are citizen's weather stations, which may
or may not be amateur radio stations (typically not).  Ignore those
when trying to figure out how many APRS'ers are in your area.

Also:  People can be attached to the internet without being on the
radio at all.  Some of the APRS'ers are probably in that mode.  If
you click on each station and look at the raw packet, if you see
"TCPIP" or "TCPXX" in the header portion, they are internet-only
stations.  KC0EPW is in that category.  The header of the packet
extends to/through the first ':' character.

--
Curt, WE7U.   APRS Client Comparisons: http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
"Lotto:A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
"The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"
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Re: [Xastir] More system questions

[Curt, WE7U]

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007, Curt, WE7U wrote:

> Try something like this:
>
> 

I blew it, those are WinLink stations, not APRS stations.  Try this
one instead:



--
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"Lotto:A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
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"The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"
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Re: [Xastir] More system questions

[Curt, WE7U]

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007, Jim Tolbert wrote:

> We are in Burnett County, Wisconsin, USA The county's limits are N46.159
> to N45.641 and W92.034 to W92.886.

Try something like this:



--
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"Lotto:A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
"The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"
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Re: [Xastir] More system questions

[Jim Tolbert]

We are in Burnett County, Wisconsin, USA The county's limits are N46.159 
to N45.641 and W92.034 to W92.886.


I am in Siren, Wisconsin 54872

Curt, WE7U wrote:

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007, Jim Tolbert wrote:
  
  

How do I determine:

* local APRS infrastructure
* how the local APRS infrastructure is loaded
* if there is access to digipeaters.



#1 and #3 can probably be reasonably answered by prowling around
aprsworld.net or findu.com for your area.  First find a station near
you, then ask one or both of them to show other stations nearby.

As far as the loading, tell us where you're at roughly and someone
on here may have direct experience in your area.

--
Curt, WE7U.   APRS Client Comparisons: http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
"Lotto:A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
"The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"


  


Jim Tolbert

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [Xastir] Message Groups

[William McKeehan]

Thanks for pointing me in the direction of the help file. That gives me enough
to begin to play with it and maybe figure out what some of the "various
problems" are.

Thanks!
-- 
William McKeehan
William

On Tue, June 26, 2007 11:39 pm, Tom Russo wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2007 at 11:27:19PM -0400, we recorded a bogon-computron
> collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing:
>> Does Xastir support Message Groups? If so, where do you set them up?
>
> Per the help menu:
>
>   Send Message to and Open group messages
>
>   These are very similar. "Send message to" will send your messages to one
>   station and will only receive data from that station. Group messages are
> more
>   general: you can receive any message for the group and you will send out
> your
>   messages to that group name. Group messages code is not fully implemented
> yet
>   and various problems still need to be worked out.  The "groups" file is
> looked
>   for in ~/.xastir/config.  This is where the groups you are a member of are
>   stored.  As was said before the "groups" functionality may not be complete
> yet.
>
> I've never tried using them, though.  I have no idea what the "various
> problems"
> are.
>
> --
> Tom RussoKM5VY   SAR502   DM64ux  http://www.swcp.com/~russo/
> Tijeras, NM  QRPL#1592 K2#398  SOC#236 AHTB#1 http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?DDTNM
> "And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is
>  one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh,
>  oooh, the sky is the limit!"  --- The Tick
>

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Re: [Xastir] More system questions

[Curt, WE7U]

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007, Jim Tolbert wrote:

> You guys have been a fantastic help!   And best of all, I have not
> been flamed yet for stupid questions!!!

Are you asking for that???  Some of us have extensive experience
with surviving such discussions on other lists...


> How do I determine:
>
> * local APRS infrastructure
> * how the local APRS infrastructure is loaded
> * if there is access to digipeaters.

#1 and #3 can probably be reasonably answered by prowling around
aprsworld.net or findu.com for your area.  First find a station near
you, then ask one or both of them to show other stations nearby.

As far as the loading, tell us where you're at roughly and someone
on here may have direct experience in your area.

--
Curt, WE7U.   APRS Client Comparisons: http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
"Lotto:A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
"The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"
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[Xastir] More system questions

[Jim Tolbert]

You guys have been a fantastic help!   And best of all, I have not been flamed 
yet for stupid questions!!!

As a base, I am in the process of downloading OpenSUSE Linux and will then 
download Xastir for Linux.

The following Tom's suggestion that Xastir can see and record a combination of 
things, beg borrow steal (or worst case buy ) units to try to see what 
works best. Someone noted that use of the radio / GPS units depended on the local 
APRS infrastructure and how it's loaded and if there is access to digipeaters.

How do I determine:

   *

 local APRS infrastructure 
 


   *

 how the local APRS infrastructure is loaded 
 


   *

 if there is access to digipeaters.

As usual, MANY THANX!!. jt

--
Jim Tolbert
EMT-B

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [Xastir] System cost options

[Tom Russo]

On Wed, Jun 27, 2007 at 09:01:50AM -0700, we recorded a bogon-computron 
collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing:
> On Wed, 27 Jun 2007, Tom Russo wrote:
> 
> > We don't disagree that much.
> 
> Give me time...
> 
> 
> > I am very distrustful of these ultra-low-power, deaf trackers.
> >
> > But there are many of them getting made, so *somebody* must be finding them
> > useful.  To be useful, the APRS infrastructure must be very good, the 
> > terrain
> > must be wide open, and the loading of the infrastructure must be low.  I
> > hinted at that with my first paragraph.
> 
> I have used low-powered deaf trackers, and have friends who have, in
> the form of the PocketTracker.  This one puts out 270mW at best, and
> fits in an Altoids tin with a 9V battery.  Hook up a GPS to it with
> a cable and you're up and running.  Most people run them with a
> walkie-talkie rubber duck antenna (not the most efficient type
> antenna by any means).
> 
> I've had basically no luck getting into the system with this device
> over my normal commute route, even when hooked to my 1/4 wave whip
> antenna on the roof.  Another friend was living in northern CA for a
> bit and tried running one in a similar manner with a whip antenna
> and didn't get in either.
> 
> To be fair, I'm in the fringe area of one of the busiest APRS areas
> (Puget Sound/Seattle), and travel mostly in a county with no
> digipeaters of it's own plus lots of hills/canyons/mountains.  There
> are digi's within range if I don't have a lot of dirt between me and
> the hilltops, but only if you're running enough power to compete
> reasonably with everyone else who's trying to get positions in.

None of that is inconsistent with what I said.  You're in an area with
a great infrastructure, but terrain and network loading that makes 300mW
trackers useless.  I'd expect California to be as bad or worse.  Even here
in New Mexico it would be hard to use them even with our good infrastructure
and relatively light loading (because of terrain).

I recommend real trackers with power and antennas, too.  And I continue to
recommend the turn-key D7 solely for the ease with which an organization
can deploy them in largish numbers.  I like kit solutions, but in my experience
unless one person is going to do the build out, or a large pool of highly
motivated and skilled people are going to build them to a standard, and 
quickly, kits are not a good way to go for a rapid deployment of capability.  

The original poster was uninterested in kit solutions, so Tracker2 and TinyTrak
solutions aren't really an option.  One could buy assembled and tested
units of TinyTrak or OpenTracker units and build them into an APRS tracker,
but that's still significant effort with lots of room for "learning experiences"
along the way.  Tracker2 is not available at the moment --- it's still in 
beta testing, and when a new batch of beta boards comes out they're snapped
up in a couple of days.  Not what the original poster wanted at all.

The best solution to the problem posed by the original poster is a bunch of 
APRS appliances like D7's.  As corners need to be cut to fit available funding,
one has to explore options.  The low power units like the MicroTrak should
be at the very bottom of the list of options.

-- 
Tom RussoKM5VY   SAR502   DM64ux  http://www.swcp.com/~russo/
Tijeras, NM  QRPL#1592 K2#398  SOC#236 AHTB#1 http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?DDTNM
"And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is
 one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh,
 oooh, the sky is the limit!"  --- The Tick
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Re: [Xastir] System cost options

[Curt, WE7U]

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007, Tom Russo wrote:

> We don't disagree that much.

Give me time...


> I am very distrustful of these ultra-low-power, deaf trackers.
>
> But there are many of them getting made, so *somebody* must be finding them
> useful.  To be useful, the APRS infrastructure must be very good, the terrain
> must be wide open, and the loading of the infrastructure must be low.  I
> hinted at that with my first paragraph.

I have used low-powered deaf trackers, and have friends who have, in
the form of the PocketTracker.  This one puts out 270mW at best, and
fits in an Altoids tin with a 9V battery.  Hook up a GPS to it with
a cable and you're up and running.  Most people run them with a
walkie-talkie rubber duck antenna (not the most efficient type
antenna by any means).

I've had basically no luck getting into the system with this device
over my normal commute route, even when hooked to my 1/4 wave whip
antenna on the roof.  Another friend was living in northern CA for a
bit and tried running one in a similar manner with a whip antenna
and didn't get in either.

To be fair, I'm in the fringe area of one of the busiest APRS areas
(Puget Sound/Seattle), and travel mostly in a county with no
digipeaters of it's own plus lots of hills/canyons/mountains.  There
are digi's within range if I don't have a lot of dirt between me and
the hilltops, but only if you're running enough power to compete
reasonably with everyone else who's trying to get positions in.

--
Curt, WE7U.   APRS Client Comparisons: http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
"Lotto:A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
"The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"
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Re: [Xastir] System cost options

[Tom Russo]

On Wed, Jun 27, 2007 at 08:50:20AM -0700, we recorded a bogon-computron 
collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing:
> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007, Tom Russo wrote:
> 
> > That depends on the local APRS infrastructure and how it's loaded.  That 
> > 300mW
> > might be enough to hit a digipeater if your terrain is right and your
> > infrastructure is built up enough.  Once it gets digipeated, the power of 
> > the
> > original tracker is less important.  There is no infrastructure you can
> > leverage with a Rino, and it's strictly line-of-sight between tracker and
> > receiver.
> 
> Even if a few tests when the frequency is not extremely busy look
> like the 300mW can get into digipeaters, if you are in hilly terrain
> or if pretty much _anyone_ else transmits when you do, you're not
> going to get into the digipeater.  For the most part, to have an
> equal chance to get into the digi, most people need to run roughly
> the same power levels.  Mobiles that are running 50W and good
> antennas will easily capture the digipeater over you, and you won't
> get heard.
> 
> I still stick by my 5-8W recommendation for portables.  FWIW I run a
> 1/4 wave whip on the roof of my Cherokee fed by a TM-261A mobile
> radio set to medium power and have excellent results.  I don't tend
> to bump it up to 50W anymore.
> 
> The rest of Tom's response was spot-on.  Just had to get my slight
> disagreement stated above.

We don't disagree that much.

I am very distrustful of these ultra-low-power, deaf trackers.

But there are many of them getting made, so *somebody* must be finding them
useful.  To be useful, the APRS infrastructure must be very good, the terrain
must be wide open, and the loading of the infrastructure must be low.  I
hinted at that with my first paragraph.

I would never use a 300mW tracker out here, where 5W is barely enough to 
assure adequate coverage in canyons.  Milage can vary, though, and I was
allowing for that.

I recommend using beefy trackers for SAR, too.

-- 
Tom RussoKM5VY   SAR502   DM64ux  http://www.swcp.com/~russo/
Tijeras, NM  QRPL#1592 K2#398  SOC#236 AHTB#1 http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?DDTNM
"And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is
 one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh,
 oooh, the sky is the limit!"  --- The Tick
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Re: [Xastir] System cost options

[Curt, WE7U]

On Tue, 26 Jun 2007, Tom Russo wrote:

> That depends on the local APRS infrastructure and how it's loaded.  That 300mW
> might be enough to hit a digipeater if your terrain is right and your
> infrastructure is built up enough.  Once it gets digipeated, the power of the
> original tracker is less important.  There is no infrastructure you can
> leverage with a Rino, and it's strictly line-of-sight between tracker and
> receiver.

Even if a few tests when the frequency is not extremely busy look
like the 300mW can get into digipeaters, if you are in hilly terrain
or if pretty much _anyone_ else transmits when you do, you're not
going to get into the digipeater.  For the most part, to have an
equal chance to get into the digi, most people need to run roughly
the same power levels.  Mobiles that are running 50W and good
antennas will easily capture the digipeater over you, and you won't
get heard.

I still stick by my 5-8W recommendation for portables.  FWIW I run a
1/4 wave whip on the roof of my Cherokee fed by a TM-261A mobile
radio set to medium power and have excellent results.  I don't tend
to bump it up to 50W anymore.

The rest of Tom's response was spot-on.  Just had to get my slight
disagreement stated above.

--
Curt, WE7U.   APRS Client Comparisons: http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
"Lotto:A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
"The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"
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Re: Fwd: [Xastir] System cost options

[Curt, WE7U]

On Tue, 26 Jun 2007, Greg Eigsti wrote:

> The Rino 520/530 boast 5 watts on the GMRS bands; though mine does
> not perform as I would expect - What I cannot tx/rx through that
> mountain? ;)  I have also been very happy with the battery life of
> the stock li/ion batteries.  We use ours on the dirt bikes to keep in
> touch with each other (and to track each other).  IMO a great
> package!  Now if only one of the HAM mfgrs would step up and give us
> all that the Rino offers + HAM bands + TNC...
>
> Great discussion as I am very interested in bridging HAM/Rino -
> though work/wife/kids get in the way of that goal most of the time ;)

As far as I know Xastir is the only APRS program that can currently
bridge the two, and it is in one direction only.

I assume your 520's/530's are either newer units, or you've upgraded
the firmware on them from Garmin so that you get the positioning out
at the higher power level?  If your units are older, you might want
to do that.  Older units send the positioning out at FRS power
levels instead of GMRS.

--
Curt, WE7U.   APRS Client Comparisons: http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
"Lotto:A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
"The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"
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Re: [Xastir] System cost options

[Curt, WE7U]

On Tue, 26 Jun 2007, Alex Carver wrote:

> Don't forget also that a combination FRS/GMRS device
> like a Rino has a stock, low gain antenna that is not
> replaceable in order to maintain compliance with the
> FCC rules governing FRS.  So the MicroTrak wins
> because it's got a replaceable antenna that could use
> something like a long whip or even a high gain Yagi.
> The D7s also have this advantage over the Rinos.

My feeling is that 300mW isn't enough in the woods.  I'm aiming for
somewhere around 5-8W for a portable tracker setup.  Once the
digipeater-in-a-backpack sort of thing takes off, we _might_ be able
to get by with less, perhaps 1-5W.

--
Curt, WE7U.   APRS Client Comparisons: http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
"Lotto:A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
"The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"
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Re: [Xastir] System cost options

[Curt, WE7U]

On Tue, 26 Jun 2007, Richard Polivka, N6NKO wrote:

> Another possibility is to look at Byonics.com. They make units that work
> great for APRS trackers.

Or OpenTrackers/Tracker2's, which in my opinion work better.
They're also open-source.

--
Curt, WE7U.   APRS Client Comparisons: http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
"Lotto:A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown
"Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U
"The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"
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