Re: [XeTeX] Auto Font and Language Package in XeTeX (Khaled Hosny)
On 12/21/2010 6:04 PM, Venkatesan. S.K. (TNQ) wrote: Do unicode committee have a proof of concept application (like Amaya browser for W3 HTML) or a font? They don't need a PoC application, as the algorithms are fully described. The problems usually occur when specific font features need to be applied in a specific order, and the font engine either lacks the capability to apply them in the right order, or the capability to apply them at all. Being Unicode and OpenType compliant (rather than just compatible) is a fiendishly complex job. As for the font, the Unicode Consortium uses many different fonts, all contributed by numerous foundries and individuals (see http://unicode.org/charts/fonts.html) It is possible create a font using all their PDFs but license will be problem, I suppose... Rather! You are, in fact, expressly forbidden from extracting any font used in the Unicode specification PDF files. Each and every OS and editors show different levels of compliance... This is mostly because they all use different engines. Your OS will use Uniscribe, Core Text or (most likely) Pango depending on whether it's windows, mac or *nix, and individual applications may completely ignore these render engines and use their own layout management and glyph fetchers instead. Depending on how much the developers feel they need to reinvent the wheel because the default engines available don't offer what they need, applications will be more or less Unicode and OpenType compatible (I'm not aware of any text engine that is fully compliant, but if there is one, I'd love to know about it!) - Mike Pomax Kamermans nihongoresources.com -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Auto Font and Language Package in XeTeX
Hello Michiel. Thanks a lot for this package. There's a small typo in the documentation; if I understand well the paragraph 4.3 should read \setTransitionsFor[3], not \setTransitions[3]. Without polyglossia (essai1.tex below) I got the expected result, but with polyglossia (essai2.tex) XeTeX seems to enter an infinite loop; the error message is: ./essai2.tex:15: TeX capacity exceeded, sorry [save size=5]. argument ...ex \...@gobble \let \glossary \...@gobble l.15 भ वान्कः। \\ No pages of output. Transcript written on essai2.log. Regards, Yves essai1.tex Description: Binary data essai2.tex Description: Binary data Le 21 déc. 2010 à 17:53, Michiel Kamermans a écrit : Hi Yves (and everyone else) the ucharclasses package is now on CTAN (http://tug.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/xetex/latex/ucharclasses/), so if you want to see if it breaks in combination with how you use polyglossia, let me know what the result is. - Mike Pomax Kamermans nihongoresources.com -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Auto Font and Language Package in XeTeX
Hi, I managed to download ucharclasses.zip from CTAN. I will definitely try to use it for my MuLTiFlow project: http://sourceforge.net/projects/multiflow/develop Thanks Michiel Kamermans!! Lua has another way I suppose, I like that cute little language!! Thanks Khaled Hosny!! I agree with Khaled Hosny that font switching and text directionality are two different issues. The difficult question is whether UTF-8 editors should switch direction by sensing the UTF-8 characters? I have had unpleasant surprises both with Tamil (left to right and complex ligatures) and Arabic (right to left) in gedit. (There must be a way to switch this off I suppose) XeTeX allows you to switch on/off the language specific scripts, which is nice. I suppose there are other views on this from WYSIWYG people. Browsers sense the characters and switches them, and I think it is hard-wired based on the UTF-8 character values and does not pick it up from the font. I suppose these are early days for unicode, especially for Indic, Hebrew and Arabic. Suki -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Auto Font and Language Package in XeTeX
Hi Yves (and everyone else) the ucharclasses package is now on CTAN (http://tug.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/xetex/latex/ucharclasses/), so if you want to see if it breaks in combination with how you use polyglossia, let me know what the result is. - Mike Pomax Kamermans nihongoresources.com -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Auto Font and Language Package in XeTeX (Khaled Hosny)
On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 05:15:13PM +0530, Venkatesan. S.K. (TNQ) wrote: I suppose these are early days for unicode, especially for Indic, Hebrew and Arabic. I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by early here, but Arabic have been part of Unicode since 1.1 (cr. 1993), bidi algorithm even predates Unicode. Regards, Khaled -- Khaled Hosny Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team Free font developer When Arabic and English and Tamil are mixed in UTF-8 I can demonstrate interesting behaviors in gedit and other text editors. Many other text editors just render them in byte order, like byte editors, which is fine... It may not be early days for the Unicode specs, but the implementing applications have been having finding it difficulty, not to mention that there have been new characters and changes being constantly made in every Unicode version, 5.1, 6.0, etc...The OS releases lag behind and where are the bloody fonts that has implemented Unicode 6.0? It is a nightmare for implementors and users. Do unicode committee have a proof of concept application (like Amaya browser for W3 HTML) or a font? It is possible create a font using all their PDFs but license will be problem, I suppose... Each and every OS and editors show different levels of compliance... Apart from all this, there are the users who are used to WYSIWYG paradigm and get very confused when there are different outputs in XML editors and the PDF output. We have had interesting problems where book authors used Arabic/Hebrew in an insensitive version of MS Word that doesn't switch right to left and they want the output that way and when we open it an recent version of MS Word or the other way around, we get very interesting emails and discussions. I generally tell them please send me a PDF and tell me what is exactly you want in the output, we will take care of the XML. Of course, if you use a non-Middle-East version of InDesign then right to left will not work; I suppose InDesign folks think that Arabic should not be used non-Middle-East folks... Suki -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Auto Font and Language Package in XeTeX
Alright, I finished the ucharclasses package at least to a functional degree, with the project page for it at http://projects.nihongoresources.com/xelatex/ucharclasses (it's been submitted to CTAN, so once it's in the listing it'll be nice and easy to grab). If anyone has any improvement requests (either functionally or codewise), I'm all ears. Or eyes. whichever works best, really. Incidentally, does anyone know whether there is a LuaTeX version of the XeTeXintercharclass behaviour that would let this package be rewritten for LuaTeX with minimal effort? - Mike Pomax Kamermans nihongoresources.com -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Auto Font and Language Package in XeTeX
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 12:59:45PM +0100, Paul Isambert wrote:
Selon Arthur Reutenauer arthur.reutena...@normalesup.org:
Incidentally, does anyone know whether there is a LuaTeX version of the
XeTeXintercharclass behaviour that would let this package be rewritten
for LuaTeX with minimal effort?
Paul Isambert has written code to that effect, but I'm not sure he has
made it into a package yet.
I haven't indeed. It's quite low on my priority list, all the more as
mimicking
interchartoks isn't totally possible in LuaTeX, although the most significant
part of the mechanism can be reproduced.
Anyway judging from what I understand Michiel's package does, an
interchartoks-like code in LuaTeX won't work, because it'll really be an
``inter-node'' mechanism, and (glyph) nodes already have their fonts attached
to
them, whereas the package is supposed to change fonts.
The solution would rather be: get the nodes as soon as possible, e.g. in the
ligaturing callback, and set the font number for each node according to its
unicode value. That means no such thing as \fontspec{A font} is usable here;
instead, you must go low-level and grab the fonts by their numbers. Such
numbers
can be retrieved from the control sequences passed to the \font primitive with
Lua's font.id(name). An extension to fontspec would be infinitely simpler
than
an independent package.
I long had that on my todo list, but I'm yet to figure out a proper user
interface for it; one needs to take care of different font styles,
optical sizes etc. e.g. English ARABIC {\it english ARABIC} should work
and get the Arabic text assigned the proper italic font and so on.
The code at lua end is quit trivial, once the script-font mapping is
defined which is actually the tricky part.
Regards,
Khaled
--
Khaled Hosny
Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
Free font developer
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Re: [XeTeX] Auto Font and Language Package in XeTeX
I long had that on my todo list, but I'm yet to figure out a proper user
interface for it; one needs to take care of different font styles,
optical sizes etc. e.g. English ARABIC {\it english ARABIC} should work
and get the Arabic text assigned the proper italic font and so on.
The code at lua end is quit trivial, once the script-font mapping is
defined which is actually the tricky part.
Hmm... that sounds much more narrow than what you can do with XeTeX's
intercharclass behaviour, and much more like just font-switching. I
would imagine that something like what XeTeX offers makes it much easier
to say if arabic character from non arabic, RTL and font switch (and
whatever else is requested by the user). But perhaps LuaTeX wants to do
these two things separately, which would of course be equally fine, just
requiring a different approach in terms of packageness
- Mike
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Re: [XeTeX] Auto Font and Language Package in XeTeX
On 12/12/2010 9:57 PM, Venkatesan. S.K. (TNQ) wrote: If you look at current generation browsers, they assign fonts by default to all language scripts by their unicode plane. Say, Greek=Palatino Linotype etc. They also allow you to change the default font settings. It would be a nice idea to build a default package in XeLaTeX that would use these fonts. Alright, alright, I confess, I should just finish the damn ucharclasses package _ For the moment the dev version is here: http://projects.nihongoresources.com/downloadables/ucharclasses.tgz documentation here: http://projects.nihongoresources.com/downloadables/ucharclasses.pdf I still need to add in selective unicode block load options, and ideally follow up on Jonathan's suggestion from way back when, to add in script tags in addition to the current blind unicode blocks (although I suspect that would be more for a v2, since ambiguity is king when it comes to script). I'm swamped with wrapping up my work before moving from Europe to Canada, Jan 1st, but I'll try to get it cleaned a little and CTANed over the weekend. If anyone has a better package name for it before I sent it up to CTAN, feel free to pipe up and I'll change it to something more intuitive for users. - Mike Pomax Kamermans nihongoresources.com -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
