subject:"\[XeTeX\] Babel"

[XeTeX] babel

2016-03-23 Thread Javier Bezos


Hi all,

I'm working on a new version of babel, with a new way to define
languages in a descriptive way, more than in a programmatic one (of
course, the latter won't be excluded because it's still necessary).

The idea is to create a set of ini file like those you can find on

https://latex-project.org/svnroot/latex2e-public/trunk/required/babel/locales/

They are tentative and some of them are incomplete. I'm working on the
code to read and 'transform' their data, but in the meanwhile I'd like
to improve the ini files. The first step in the roadmap is to provide
real utf-8 strings for captions and dates with current styles so
that they can be useable even without fontenc.

Any help or comments would be greatly appreciated.

[Crossposted to xetex and luatex lists.]

Javier


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[XeTeX] Babel

2012-05-01 Thread Javier Bezos


Hi all,

Babel gets back on track and it is again actively maintained. The
goals are mainly to fix bugs, to make it compatible with XeTeX and
LuaTeX (as far as possible), and perhaps to add some minor new
features (provided they are backward compatible).

No attempt will be done to take full advantage of the features
provided by XeTeX and LuaTeX, which would require a completely
new core (as for example polyglossia or as part of LaTeX3).

Your comments or suggestions (or questions!) are welcomed.

Javier


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[XeTeX] babel

2012-09-03 Thread François Patte

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Bonjour,

Some times ago, I read that babel will be compatible with xelatex.

I would like to use babel with french and sanskrit languages, do I have
any chance to succeed?

Thanks for information.
- -- 
François Patte
UFR de mathématiques et informatique
Laboratoire MAP5 --- UMR CNRS 8145
Université Paris Descartes
45, rue des Saints Pères
F-75270 Paris Cedex 06
Tél. +33 (0)1 8394 5849
http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

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uoAAniCGDMD47tlakPm8khFTHaraYhvQ
=3HCh
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: [XeTeX] babel

2012-09-05 Thread François Patte

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Le 03/09/2012 20:16, Zdenek Wagner a écrit :
> 2012/9/3 Javier Bezos :
>> François,
>>
>>
>>> Some times ago, I read that babel will be compatible with xelatex.
>>>
>>> I would like to use babel with french and sanskrit languages, do I have
>>> any chance to succeed?
>>
> Maintainig babel is important for (pdf)latex which is still in use but
> for XeLaTeX I would suggest polyglossia which already works. You can
> input the Devanagari text either directly in UTF-8 or in a
> transliteration (including Velthuis) using the xetex-devanagari
> package. You can request transliteration from Velthuis by
> Mapping=velthuis-sanskrit (Mapping=velthuis is used for Hindi, you
> will have to write explicitly viramas after the final consonants).
> There are several Devanagari fonts available, for instance Nakula and
> Sahadeva by John Smith or GNU FreeFont. You need at least release
> 20120503, in older releases the Devanagari block is incorrect. This
> release is already packaged in TeX Live 2012. Devanagari in FreeSans
> is derived from Gargi, thus it does not contain all Sanskrit
> conjuncts, FreeSerif contains Velthuis glyphs. When the font is
> loaded, it even obeys switching Language=Sanskrit and Language=Hindi
> (the latter coresponding to the @modernhindi instruction in devnag).
> Moreover, GNU FreeFont is most probably the only font with correct
> spacing of Devanagari punctuation. I would certainly use Polyglossia +
> GNU FreeSerif in XeLaTeX.

I installed texlive-2012 and, I'm trying FreeSerif fonts. As far as I
can see, there are no italics for devanagari, am I right?

Will it be available some day?

Thanks


- -- 
François Patte
UFR de mathématiques et informatique
Laboratoire MAP5 --- UMR CNRS 8145
Université Paris Descartes
45, rue des Saints P?res
F-75270 Paris Cedex 06
Tél. +33 (0)1 8394 5849
http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEARECAAYFAlBHfi8ACgkQdE6C2dhV2JU9NQCgy2zDjXLWBIIoAtzAl/jdqbTU
RwgAnA6tr3hT3n/mu+wYrfg0HVfYhlaB
=XSz+
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: [XeTeX] babel

2012-09-05 Thread Zdenek Wagner

2012/9/5 François Patte :
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Le 03/09/2012 20:16, Zdenek Wagner a écrit :
>> 2012/9/3 Javier Bezos :
>>> François,
>>>
>>>
 Some times ago, I read that babel will be compatible with xelatex.

 I would like to use babel with french and sanskrit languages, do I have
 any chance to succeed?
>>>
>> Maintainig babel is important for (pdf)latex which is still in use but
>> for XeLaTeX I would suggest polyglossia which already works. You can
>> input the Devanagari text either directly in UTF-8 or in a
>> transliteration (including Velthuis) using the xetex-devanagari
>> package. You can request transliteration from Velthuis by
>> Mapping=velthuis-sanskrit (Mapping=velthuis is used for Hindi, you
>> will have to write explicitly viramas after the final consonants).
>> There are several Devanagari fonts available, for instance Nakula and
>> Sahadeva by John Smith or GNU FreeFont. You need at least release
>> 20120503, in older releases the Devanagari block is incorrect. This
>> release is already packaged in TeX Live 2012. Devanagari in FreeSans
>> is derived from Gargi, thus it does not contain all Sanskrit
>> conjuncts, FreeSerif contains Velthuis glyphs. When the font is
>> loaded, it even obeys switching Language=Sanskrit and Language=Hindi
>> (the latter coresponding to the @modernhindi instruction in devnag).
>> Moreover, GNU FreeFont is most probably the only font with correct
>> spacing of Devanagari punctuation. I would certainly use Polyglossia +
>> GNU FreeSerif in XeLaTeX.
>
> I installed texlive-2012 and, I'm trying FreeSerif fonts. As far as I
> can see, there are no italics for devanagari, am I right?
>
Unfortunatelly they are missing. They can be created by geometrical
slanting but I do not remember the "fontspec" keyword.

> Will it be available some day?
>
Only Steve White can answer this question.

> Thanks
>
>
> - --
> François Patte
> UFR de mathématiques et informatique
> Laboratoire MAP5 --- UMR CNRS 8145
> Université Paris Descartes
> 45, rue des Saints P?res
> F-75270 Paris Cedex 06
> Tél. +33 (0)1 8394 5849
> http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAlBHfi8ACgkQdE6C2dhV2JU9NQCgy2zDjXLWBIIoAtzAl/jdqbTU
> RwgAnA6tr3hT3n/mu+wYrfg0HVfYhlaB
> =XSz+
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
>
> --
> Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.:
>   http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex



-- 
Zdeněk Wagner
http://hroch486.icpf.cas.cz/wagner/
http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz



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Re: [XeTeX] babel

2012-09-05 Thread Dominik Wujastyk

Fontspec manual, para 10.13:

In rare situations users may want to mechanically distort the shapes of the
glyphs in
the current font such as shown in Example 37. Please don’t overuse these
features;
they are not a good alternative to having the real shapes.
If values are omitted, their defaults are as shown above.
If you want the bold shape to be faked automatically, or the italic shape to
be slanted automatically, use the AutoFakeBold and AutoFakeSlant features.
For
example, the following two invocations are equivalent:
\fontspec[AutoFakeBold=1.5]{Charis SIL}
\fontspec[BoldFeatures={FakeBold=1.5}]{Charis SIL}
If both of the AutoFake... features are used, then the bold italic font
will also be
faked.
The FakeBold and AutoFakeBold features are only available with the XETEX
engine and will be ignored in LuaTEX.



On 5 September 2012 18:53, Zdenek Wagner  wrote:

> 2012/9/5 François Patte :
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > Le 03/09/2012 20:16, Zdenek Wagner a écrit :
> >> 2012/9/3 Javier Bezos :
> >>> François,
> >>>
> >>>
>  Some times ago, I read that babel will be compatible with xelatex.
> 
>  I would like to use babel with french and sanskrit languages, do I
> have
>  any chance to succeed?
> >>>
> >> Maintainig babel is important for (pdf)latex which is still in use but
> >> for XeLaTeX I would suggest polyglossia which already works. You can
> >> input the Devanagari text either directly in UTF-8 or in a
> >> transliteration (including Velthuis) using the xetex-devanagari
> >> package. You can request transliteration from Velthuis by
> >> Mapping=velthuis-sanskrit (Mapping=velthuis is used for Hindi, you
> >> will have to write explicitly viramas after the final consonants).
> >> There are several Devanagari fonts available, for instance Nakula and
> >> Sahadeva by John Smith or GNU FreeFont. You need at least release
> >> 20120503, in older releases the Devanagari block is incorrect. This
> >> release is already packaged in TeX Live 2012. Devanagari in FreeSans
> >> is derived from Gargi, thus it does not contain all Sanskrit
> >> conjuncts, FreeSerif contains Velthuis glyphs. When the font is
> >> loaded, it even obeys switching Language=Sanskrit and Language=Hindi
> >> (the latter coresponding to the @modernhindi instruction in devnag).
> >> Moreover, GNU FreeFont is most probably the only font with correct
> >> spacing of Devanagari punctuation. I would certainly use Polyglossia +
> >> GNU FreeSerif in XeLaTeX.
> >
> > I installed texlive-2012 and, I'm trying FreeSerif fonts. As far as I
> > can see, there are no italics for devanagari, am I right?
> >
> Unfortunatelly they are missing. They can be created by geometrical
> slanting but I do not remember the "fontspec" keyword.
>
> > Will it be available some day?
> >
> Only Steve White can answer this question.
>
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> > - --
> > François Patte
> > UFR de mathématiques et informatique
> > Laboratoire MAP5 --- UMR CNRS 8145
> > Université Paris Descartes
> > 45, rue des Saints P?res
> > F-75270 Paris Cedex 06
> > Tél. +33 (0)1 8394 5849
> > http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> > Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)
> > Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
> >
> > iEYEARECAAYFAlBHfi8ACgkQdE6C2dhV2JU9NQCgy2zDjXLWBIIoAtzAl/jdqbTU
> > RwgAnA6tr3hT3n/mu+wYrfg0HVfYhlaB
> > =XSz+
> > -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> >
> >
> > --
> > Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.:
> >   http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
>
>
>
> --
> Zdeněk Wagner
> http://hroch486.icpf.cas.cz/wagner/
> http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz
>
>
>
> --
> Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.:
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>


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Re: [XeTeX] babel

2012-09-06 Thread Tobias Schoel


Hi,

[snip]


Two possible smartfont techniques for such locale feature are:
- alternate french punctuation marks with larger sidebearings: this is
very unflexible for users (punctuation characters without additional
space or with different space width are troublesome) but of course
simplifies the typesetting engines’ troubles the most.
- contextual variant of the  character: the
typesetter or their engine has to enter a space at the correct place
that then gets replaced by a (narrower) variant; here I think the
engine’s troubles aren’t really diminuished a lot, but the users’ might
rise. What’s more, contextual lookups that involve  don’t work
with XeTeX, so this is not very lucky here too.
As far as I know, TeX's view of spaces is to not handle them as 
characters but as space without characters. So I don't understand, why 
French Spacing should change in any way between pdftex and xetex. Space 
without characters doesn't care for encoding nor fonts, because there is 
no character to be encoded or handled in any way by a font.




Unicode already provides for a bunch of different space characters. IMO,
type designers should provide their fonts with appropriate space
characters (eg. 6-per-em space or thin space) and the typesetter or
their engine should check for the presence of that character and use it.


Even if whitespace is left to the font, which is perfectly reasonable 
but not the TeX way, why should French Spacing be left to the font at all?


It's simply checking for a flag that says "I want French Spacing" and 
then including white space (in whatever form) at appropriate places. You 
can take appropriate white space from the font according to your liking 
(there are many in space codepoints in unicode) or do it yourself. At 
the most you can ask unicode to include a special "Space in front of 
some punctuation in French"-codepoint, but I doubt that would be 
successful nowadays.


BYe

Toscho


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Re: [XeTeX] babel

2012-09-06 Thread Zdenek Wagner

2012/9/6 Tobias Schoel :
> Hi,
>
> [snip]
>
>
>> Two possible smartfont techniques for such locale feature are:
>> - alternate french punctuation marks with larger sidebearings: this is
>> very unflexible for users (punctuation characters without additional
>> space or with different space width are troublesome) but of course
>> simplifies the typesetting engines' troubles the most.
>> - contextual variant of the  character: the
>> typesetter or their engine has to enter a space at the correct place
>> that then gets replaced by a (narrower) variant; here I think the
>> engine's troubles aren't really diminuished a lot, but the users' might
>> rise. What's more, contextual lookups that involve  don't work
>> with XeTeX, so this is not very lucky here too.
>
> As far as I know, TeX's view of spaces is to not handle them as characters
> but as space without characters. So I don't understand, why French Spacing
> should change in any way between pdftex and xetex. Space without characters
> doesn't care for encoding nor fonts, because there is no character to be
> encoded or handled in any way by a font.
>
>
>>
>> Unicode already provides for a bunch of different space characters. IMO,
>> type designers should provide their fonts with appropriate space
>> characters (eg. 6-per-em space or thin space) and the typesetter or
>> their engine should check for the presence of that character and use it.
>
>
> Even if whitespace is left to the font, which is perfectly reasonable but
> not the TeX way, why should French Spacing be left to the font at all?
>
> It's simply checking for a flag that says "I want French Spacing" and then
> including white space (in whatever form) at appropriate places. You can take
> appropriate white space from the font according to your liking (there are
> many in space codepoints in unicode) or do it yourself. At the most you can
> ask unicode to include a special "Space in front of some punctuation in
> French"-codepoint, but I doubt that would be successful nowadays.
>
No, such a codepoint is not needed and it will require additional work
from the authors. If you understand OpenType internals, look how
explanation and question marks are handled in the Devanagari script in
GNU FreeFont. This is the right way because it does not need TeX
solution in order to achieve the correct spacing. You can use the font
in Word, in OpenOffice, in InDesign, on the web page and the spacing
will be correct.

> BYe
>
> Toscho
>
>
>
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Re: [XeTeX] babel

2012-09-06 Thread Georg Duffner


Hi,

Am 2012-09-06 16:36, schrieb Zdenek Wagner:

2012/9/6 Tobias Schoel :


It's simply checking for a flag that says "I want French Spacing" and then
including white space (in whatever form) at appropriate places. You can take
appropriate white space from the font according to your liking (there are
many in space codepoints in unicode) or do it yourself. At the most you can
ask unicode to include a special "Space in front of some punctuation in
French"-codepoint, but I doubt that would be successful nowadays.


No, such a codepoint is not needed and it will require additional work
from the authors. If you understand OpenType internals, look how
explanation and question marks are handled in the Devanagari script in
GNU FreeFont. This is the right way because it does not need TeX
solution in order to achieve the correct spacing. You can use the font
in Word, in OpenOffice, in InDesign, on the web page and the spacing
will be correct.



OK, this is the first variant I mentioned and it’s interesting to see 
that it’s hardcoded this way. I’m not on principle against such 
solution, but I see more problems than advantages. Some questions:

- Do other fonts share this feature?
- What would an indic person do if they wanted to write about a question 
mark? Do they switch off the script setting? (I’m a linguist, so 
meta-level typesetting is interesting to me)
- What do you do when dynamic spacing (as usual in textsetting like in 
Word) is applied? Spaces might decrease below the width of the 
whitespace in question- and exclamation mark which stays unvariable.

- How was this treated with in metal typesetting?

Best regards,
Georg


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Re: [XeTeX] babel

2012-09-06 Thread Zdenek Wagner

2012/9/6 Georg Duffner :
> Hi,
>
> Am 2012-09-06 16:36, schrieb Zdenek Wagner:
>>
>> 2012/9/6 Tobias Schoel :
>>
>>>
>>> It's simply checking for a flag that says "I want French Spacing" and
>>> then
>>> including white space (in whatever form) at appropriate places. You can
>>> take
>>> appropriate white space from the font according to your liking (there are
>>> many in space codepoints in unicode) or do it yourself. At the most you
>>> can
>>> ask unicode to include a special "Space in front of some punctuation in
>>> French"-codepoint, but I doubt that would be successful nowadays.
>>>
>> No, such a codepoint is not needed and it will require additional work
>> from the authors. If you understand OpenType internals, look how
>> explanation and question marks are handled in the Devanagari script in
>> GNU FreeFont. This is the right way because it does not need TeX
>> solution in order to achieve the correct spacing. You can use the font
>> in Word, in OpenOffice, in InDesign, on the web page and the spacing
>> will be correct.
>>
>
> OK, this is the first variant I mentioned and it's interesting to see that
> it's hardcoded this way. I'm not on principle against such solution, but I
> see more problems than advantages. Some questions:
> - Do other fonts share this feature?

Unfortunatelly not. When using other fonts, the author must insert
nonbreakable space of correct width manually.

> - What would an indic person do if they wanted to write about a question
> mark? Do they switch off the script setting? (I'm a linguist, so meta-level
> typesetting is interesting to me)

They activate the Devanagari script (it is necessary otherwise
everything will be wrong). Then they use norma question and
exclamation marks. In Devanagari they behave in a different way than
in English but it is exactly the same codepoint.

> - What do you do when dynamic spacing (as usual in textsetting like in Word)
> is applied? Spaces might decrease below the width of the whitespace in
> question- and exclamation mark which stays unvariable.

This is exactly what is expected by Indian typographers.

> - How was this treated with in metal typesetting?
>
Probably the space was a part of the glyph. The oldest book I have was
printed in India in 1983. The spacing is the same as I see in newer
books and as implemented in GNU FreeFont.

> Best regards,
> Georg
>
>
>
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Re: [XeTeX] babel

2012-09-12 Thread FC

2012/9/4 Zdenek Wagner 

> That's bad news! I thought that François Charette implemented French
> in Polyglossia well. What is missing? Maybe it could be implemented
> fast. And are there good OpenType fonts for French? I know that French
> uses tiny spaces preceding double punctuation. This is a similar case
> as in Hindi where some spaces are used in front of question marks and
> exclamation marks (I found it i some article written by an Indian
> typographer). IMHO it should be a property of a font, not of a
> typesetting system. GNU FreeFont already contains such language
> features. Probably Steve White would know how to implement
> Language=French so that colons, semicolons, question and exclamation
> marks had proper French spacing.
>

I was the first to admit publically that French support in polyglossia was
suboptimal. I did some initial work with \XeTeXinterchartoks to have the
most important typographical features covered (in theory the spacing around
colons, semicolons, question and exclamation marks should be handled
properly, but this was never seriously tested). Also as a matter of
principle I never wanted to use active characters in polyglossia, but most
importantly I left the rest of the work for others to do because -- besides
the time issue -- I was not much interested in doing it! Despite French
being my mother language, as a French Canadian I am not very familiar with
the French typographical tradition, and rarely used French for my
professional work (my main interest for developing polyglossia was in
supporting languages in non-Latin scripts: Arabic, Hebrew, Greek, Indic
scripts, etc.)

In any case, let's hope the current maintainer Arthur Reutenauer will take
care to coordinate fixing this important lacuna in polyglossia. Many people
complained about this over the years, but IIRC the only person who actually
helped was Enrico Gregorio. If Ulrike is right that frenchb is already
adapted for XeTeX, then the task may not be as complex as it was 3 years
ago.

While I am on this list let me ask you a related question. When Arthur took
up maintenance of polyglossia last year his main goal was to support
LuaLaTeX as well as XeLaTeX. Any news about this?

Regards,
François Charette


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Re: [XeTeX] babel

2012-09-12 Thread Joel C. Salomon

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 3:11 PM, François Charette  wrote:
> While I am on this list let me ask you a related question. When Arthur took
> up maintenance of polyglossia last year his main goal was to support
> LuaLaTeX as well as XeLaTeX. Any news about this?

About a month ago Arthur Reutenauer posted to this list (and some
others) that experimental support for LuaTeX had been added in the
development version he maintains at
.

The announcement is at .

—Joel

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Re: [XeTeX] babel

2012-09-12 Thread Joel C. Salomon

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 3:34 PM, Joel C. Salomon  wrote:
> .

…and of course I copied his typo. That should be
, of course.

—Joel



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Re: [XeTeX] babel

2012-09-12 Thread Steve White

Hi,

Zdenek, again I've come in to the middle of a conversation...

It's not clear to me how to implement the rules, or who is responsible
for implementing them (or quite what the rules ought to be).

Yes it is possible to implement, for instance, a french-specific
kerning in an OpenType font, that would implement greater spacing for
punctuation in French text only.

I have seen articles such as http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponctuation
which advocate implementing punctuation spaces by using non-breaking space.
To my eyes, such spaces seem excessive, and greater that what I see in
a few French books I have.  But if this is how the spacing is to be
done, I don't understand why it's appropriate for the font to
implement the spacing.

A bunch of hard publications are referenced in that article.  Anybody
have a copy?

Cheers!

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:11 PM, FC  wrote:
>
> 2012/9/4 Zdenek Wagner 
>>
>> That's bad news! I thought that François Charette implemented French
>> in Polyglossia well. What is missing? Maybe it could be implemented
>> fast. And are there good OpenType fonts for French? I know that French
>> uses tiny spaces preceding double punctuation. This is a similar case
>> as in Hindi where some spaces are used in front of question marks and
>> exclamation marks (I found it i some article written by an Indian
>> typographer). IMHO it should be a property of a font, not of a
>> typesetting system. GNU FreeFont already contains such language
>> features. Probably Steve White would know how to implement
>> Language=French so that colons, semicolons, question and exclamation
>> marks had proper French spacing.
>
>
> I was the first to admit publically that French support in polyglossia was
> suboptimal. I did some initial work with \XeTeXinterchartoks to have the
> most important typographical features covered (in theory the spacing around
> colons, semicolons, question and exclamation marks should be handled
> properly, but this was never seriously tested). Also as a matter of
> principle I never wanted to use active characters in polyglossia, but most
> importantly I left the rest of the work for others to do because -- besides
> the time issue -- I was not much interested in doing it! Despite French
> being my mother language, as a French Canadian I am not very familiar with
> the French typographical tradition, and rarely used French for my
> professional work (my main interest for developing polyglossia was in
> supporting languages in non-Latin scripts: Arabic, Hebrew, Greek, Indic
> scripts, etc.)
>
> In any case, let's hope the current maintainer Arthur Reutenauer will take
> care to coordinate fixing this important lacuna in polyglossia. Many people
> complained about this over the years, but IIRC the only person who actually
> helped was Enrico Gregorio. If Ulrike is right that frenchb is already
> adapted for XeTeX, then the task may not be as complex as it was 3 years
> ago.
>
> While I am on this list let me ask you a related question. When Arthur took
> up maintenance of polyglossia last year his main goal was to support
> LuaLaTeX as well as XeLaTeX. Any news about this?
>
> Regards,
> François Charette
>
>
>
> --
> Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.:
>   http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
>



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Re: [XeTeX] babel

2012-09-12 Thread Arthur Reutenauer

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 03:34:19PM -0400, Joel C. Salomon wrote:
> About a month ago Arthur Reutenauer posted to this list (and some
> others) that experimental support for LuaTeX had been added in the
> development version he maintains at
> .

  The support then was too shaky to make a beta release and I expected
it would take me a couple of weeks to complete it, but I've been held up
by other things in the mean time.  I'll make a release to CTAN when it's
ready to be tested.

  (Note that I corrected a typo in the URL of my original announcement,
reproduced by Joel.)

Arthur

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Re: [XeTeX] babel

2016-03-23 Thread Zdenek Wagner

Hi Javier,

I am copying my reply to the cstex list because I am not autoritative for
Slovak and maybe I will not be precise enough. I am giving my commnents to
Czech (cs.ini), Slovak (sk.ini), and Hindi (hi.ini). Some comments are
common for all.

I do not understand the meaning of the encoding field. T1 and OT1 are font
encodings for use with 8-bit TeX, XeTeX is able to use UTF-8 or UTF-16 and
such fonts are available. IL2 (in Czech) was historically used in cslatex.
It is preserved for legacy documents but deprecated, unsupported in babel
and should be deleted. I know nothing about LY1. Before Unicode there
existed many private encodings for Devanagari, many web pages used it and
it was necessary to install a special font. Such fonts can still be found
but IMO there is no sense to support them.

I understand hyphenchar (should be the same as in English in all mentioned
languages) but do not understand the other hyphen* fields.

The minus sign in both Czech and Slovak should be –

The quotes in both Czech and Slovak are „ and “ (the closing quote has its
codepoint in Unicode but is rarely present in fonts, it is better to use
English opening quote which has the same shape).

In Czech (and maybe also in Slovak) the time separator is a period, in
sport results and time tables a colon is used.

Slovak: characters Ä Ď Ô Ť in index look strange to me, it should be proved
by a native Slovak speaker.

Hindi


See the note on the encoding above

A few misprints and missing items in the captions
bib = संदर्भ-ग्रन्थ (or संदर्भ-ग्रंथ)
contents - the version you have is one of the alternatives suggested by
Anshuman Pandey but most books I have bought in India contain अनुक्रम
part = खण्ड (or खंड)
page = पृष्ठ
proof = प्रमाण
glossary = शब्दार्थ सूची

cc, encl, and headto make no sense, I am probably the only man who writes
business e-mails in Hindi...

I have never seen abreviated months (a native Hindi speaker should help).
The only abbreviations for days of week I have seen at the Aligarh railway
station are:
Monday = सो॰, Tuesday = मं॰, Wednesday = बु॰, Thursday = बृह॰, Friday =
शुक॰ (or शुक्र॰, the plate was not clearly readable), Saturday = शनि॰,
Sunday = रवि॰. I would not be surprized if the ॰ punctuation were omitted.

[characters] ङ  and ञ are not used in Hindi, they should be removed from
index

frenchspacing – I am afraid that it has no sense in Hindi as well as other
Indic languages. The proper spacing was implemented in GNU Freefont (at
least for Hindi) and is activated automatically by language switching. The
rules are explained (in Hindi only, links to other languages switch to a
different text) at
https://hi.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%80%E0%A4%A1%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%BE:%E0%A4%B9%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%80_%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%82_%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF_%E0%A4%97%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%81

punctuation: danda । and double danda ॥ should be listed as the most
important punctuation
quotes: either English double quotes or English single quotes are used
(depends on the preference of an author and/or a publisher)

number: Both Devanagari and Arabic digits are used, it is hard to say which
one should be he default

counters: the way how list items are numbered does not conform to the LaTeX
system. I have a normative document how it should be done, it is written in
Marathi and I probably have also a Hindi version. Unfortunately I have not
found time to implement it so far.



Zdeněk Wagner
http://ttsm.icpf.cas.cz/team/wagner.shtml
http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz

2016-03-23 19:31 GMT+01:00 Javier Bezos :

> Hi all,
>
> I'm working on a new version of babel, with a new way to define
> languages in a descriptive way, more than in a programmatic one (of
> course, the latter won't be excluded because it's still necessary).
>
> The idea is to create a set of ini file like those you can find on
>
>
> https://latex-project.org/svnroot/latex2e-public/trunk/required/babel/locales/
>
> They are tentative and some of them are incomplete. I'm working on the
> code to read and 'transform' their data, but in the meanwhile I'd like
> to improve the ini files. The first step in the roadmap is to provide
> real utf-8 strings for captions and dates with current styles so
> that they can be useable even without fontenc.
>
> Any help or comments would be greatly appreciated.
>
> [Crossposted to xetex and luatex lists.]
>
> Javier
>
>
> --
> Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.:
>  http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
>


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Re: [XeTeX] babel

2016-03-23 Thread BPJ

> characters] ङ  and ञ are not used in Hindi, they should be removed from
index

Aren't they used in conjuncts either?

/bpj


onsdag 23 mars 2016 skrev Zdenek Wagner :

> Hi Javier,
>
> I am copying my reply to the cstex list because I am not autoritative for
> Slovak and maybe I will not be precise enough. I am giving my commnents to
> Czech (cs.ini), Slovak (sk.ini), and Hindi (hi.ini). Some comments are
> common for all.
>
> I do not understand the meaning of the encoding field. T1 and OT1 are font
> encodings for use with 8-bit TeX, XeTeX is able to use UTF-8 or UTF-16 and
> such fonts are available. IL2 (in Czech) was historically used in cslatex.
> It is preserved for legacy documents but deprecated, unsupported in babel
> and should be deleted. I know nothing about LY1. Before Unicode there
> existed many private encodings for Devanagari, many web pages used it and
> it was necessary to install a special font. Such fonts can still be found
> but IMO there is no sense to support them.
>
> I understand hyphenchar (should be the same as in English in all mentioned
> languages) but do not understand the other hyphen* fields.
>
> The minus sign in both Czech and Slovak should be –
>
> The quotes in both Czech and Slovak are „ and “ (the closing quote has its
> codepoint in Unicode but is rarely present in fonts, it is better to use
> English opening quote which has the same shape).
>
> In Czech (and maybe also in Slovak) the time separator is a period, in
> sport results and time tables a colon is used.
>
> Slovak: characters Ä Ď Ô Ť in index look strange to me, it should be
> proved by a native Slovak speaker.
>
> Hindi
> 
>
> See the note on the encoding above
>
> A few misprints and missing items in the captions
> bib = संदर्भ-ग्रन्थ (or संदर्भ-ग्रंथ)
> contents - the version you have is one of the alternatives suggested by
> Anshuman Pandey but most books I have bought in India contain अनुक्रम
> part = खण्ड (or खंड)
> page = पृष्ठ
> proof = प्रमाण
> glossary = शब्दार्थ सूची
>
> cc, encl, and headto make no sense, I am probably the only man who writes
> business e-mails in Hindi...
>
> I have never seen abreviated months (a native Hindi speaker should help).
> The only abbreviations for days of week I have seen at the Aligarh railway
> station are:
> Monday = सो॰, Tuesday = मं॰, Wednesday = बु॰, Thursday = बृह॰, Friday =
> शुक॰ (or शुक्र॰, the plate was not clearly readable), Saturday = शनि॰,
> Sunday = रवि॰. I would not be surprized if the ॰ punctuation were omitted.
>
> [characters] ङ  and ञ are not used in Hindi, they should be removed from
> index
>
> frenchspacing – I am afraid that it has no sense in Hindi as well as other
> Indic languages. The proper spacing was implemented in GNU Freefont (at
> least for Hindi) and is activated automatically by language switching. The
> rules are explained (in Hindi only, links to other languages switch to a
> different text) at
>
> https://hi.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%80%E0%A4%A1%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%BE:%E0%A4%B9%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%80_%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%82_%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF_%E0%A4%97%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%81
>
> punctuation: danda । and double danda ॥ should be listed as the most
> important punctuation
> quotes: either English double quotes or English single quotes are used
> (depends on the preference of an author and/or a publisher)
>
> number: Both Devanagari and Arabic digits are used, it is hard to say
> which one should be he default
>
> counters: the way how list items are numbered does not conform to the
> LaTeX system. I have a normative document how it should be done, it is
> written in Marathi and I probably have also a Hindi version. Unfortunately
> I have not found time to implement it so far.
>
>
>
> Zdeněk Wagner
> http://ttsm.icpf.cas.cz/team/wagner.shtml
> http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz
>
> 2016-03-23 19:31 GMT+01:00 Javier Bezos  >:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm working on a new version of babel, with a new way to define
>> languages in a descriptive way, more than in a programmatic one (of
>> course, the latter won't be excluded because it's still necessary).
>>
>> The idea is to create a set of ini file like those you can find on
>>
>>
>> https://latex-project.org/svnroot/latex2e-public/trunk/required/babel/locales/
>>
>> They are tentative and some of them are incomplete. I'm working on the
>> code to read and 'transform' their data, but in the meanwhile I'd like
>> to improve the ini files. The first step in the roadmap is to provide
>> real utf-8 strings for captions and dates with current styles so
>> that they can be useable even without fontenc.
>>
>> Any help or comments would be greatly appreciated.
>>
>> [Crossposted to xetex and luatex lists.]
>>
>> Javier
>>
>>
>> --
>> Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.:
>>  http://tug

Re: [XeTeX] babel

2016-03-23 Thread Zdenek Wagner

Only ञ is a part of ज्ञ but it seems to me that the index filed lists
characters that may be used as a heading in the index. Thus ञ should not be
listed.

Zdeněk Wagner
http://ttsm.icpf.cas.cz/team/wagner.shtml
http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz

2016-03-23 23:29 GMT+01:00 BPJ :

> > characters] ङ  and ञ are not used in Hindi, they should be removed from
> index
>
> Aren't they used in conjuncts either?
>
> /bpj
>
>
> onsdag 23 mars 2016 skrev Zdenek Wagner :
>
>> Hi Javier,
>>
>> I am copying my reply to the cstex list because I am not autoritative for
>> Slovak and maybe I will not be precise enough. I am giving my commnents to
>> Czech (cs.ini), Slovak (sk.ini), and Hindi (hi.ini). Some comments are
>> common for all.
>>
>> I do not understand the meaning of the encoding field. T1 and OT1 are
>> font encodings for use with 8-bit TeX, XeTeX is able to use UTF-8 or UTF-16
>> and such fonts are available. IL2 (in Czech) was historically used in
>> cslatex. It is preserved for legacy documents but deprecated, unsupported
>> in babel and should be deleted. I know nothing about LY1. Before Unicode
>> there existed many private encodings for Devanagari, many web pages used it
>> and it was necessary to install a special font. Such fonts can still be
>> found but IMO there is no sense to support them.
>>
>> I understand hyphenchar (should be the same as in English in all
>> mentioned languages) but do not understand the other hyphen* fields.
>>
>> The minus sign in both Czech and Slovak should be –
>>
>> The quotes in both Czech and Slovak are „ and “ (the closing quote has
>> its codepoint in Unicode but is rarely present in fonts, it is better to
>> use English opening quote which has the same shape).
>>
>> In Czech (and maybe also in Slovak) the time separator is a period, in
>> sport results and time tables a colon is used.
>>
>> Slovak: characters Ä Ď Ô Ť in index look strange to me, it should be
>> proved by a native Slovak speaker.
>>
>> Hindi
>> 
>>
>> See the note on the encoding above
>>
>> A few misprints and missing items in the captions
>> bib = संदर्भ-ग्रन्थ (or संदर्भ-ग्रंथ)
>> contents - the version you have is one of the alternatives suggested by
>> Anshuman Pandey but most books I have bought in India contain अनुक्रम
>> part = खण्ड (or खंड)
>> page = पृष्ठ
>> proof = प्रमाण
>> glossary = शब्दार्थ सूची
>>
>> cc, encl, and headto make no sense, I am probably the only man who writes
>> business e-mails in Hindi...
>>
>> I have never seen abreviated months (a native Hindi speaker should help).
>> The only abbreviations for days of week I have seen at the Aligarh railway
>> station are:
>> Monday = सो॰, Tuesday = मं॰, Wednesday = बु॰, Thursday = बृह॰, Friday =
>> शुक॰ (or शुक्र॰, the plate was not clearly readable), Saturday = शनि॰,
>> Sunday = रवि॰. I would not be surprized if the ॰ punctuation were omitted.
>>
>> [characters] ङ  and ञ are not used in Hindi, they should be removed from
>> index
>>
>> frenchspacing – I am afraid that it has no sense in Hindi as well as
>> other Indic languages. The proper spacing was implemented in GNU Freefont
>> (at least for Hindi) and is activated automatically by language switching.
>> The rules are explained (in Hindi only, links to other languages switch to
>> a different text) at
>>
>> https://hi.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%80%E0%A4%A1%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%BE:%E0%A4%B9%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%80_%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%82_%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF_%E0%A4%97%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%81
>>
>> punctuation: danda । and double danda ॥ should be listed as the most
>> important punctuation
>> quotes: either English double quotes or English single quotes are used
>> (depends on the preference of an author and/or a publisher)
>>
>> number: Both Devanagari and Arabic digits are used, it is hard to say
>> which one should be he default
>>
>> counters: the way how list items are numbered does not conform to the
>> LaTeX system. I have a normative document how it should be done, it is
>> written in Marathi and I probably have also a Hindi version. Unfortunately
>> I have not found time to implement it so far.
>>
>>
>>
>> Zdeněk Wagner
>> http://ttsm.icpf.cas.cz/team/wagner.shtml
>> http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz
>>
>> 2016-03-23 19:31 GMT+01:00 Javier Bezos :
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I'm working on a new version of babel, with a new way to define
>>> languages in a descriptive way, more than in a programmatic one (of
>>> course, the latter won't be excluded because it's still necessary).
>>>
>>> The idea is to create a set of ini file like those you can find on
>>>
>>>
>>> https://latex-project.org/svnroot/latex2e-public/trunk/required/babel/locales/
>>>
>>> They are tentative and some of them are incomplete. I'm working on the
>>> code to read and 'transform' their data, but in the meanwhile I'd like
>>> to improve the ini files. The first step in th

Thank you very much. Very useful, and you confirm my suspect
the data in the CLDR is not always reliable. Furthermore, it's
obvious it's intended mainly for displaying plain text in
some especific contexts and not for fine typesetting. At first
my idea was to sinchronize more or less regularly the ini files
with the CLDR, but now I'm not sure it's a good idea.

I do not understand the meaning of the encoding field.

The goal is to provide information about which encodings
support or have supported the language, even partially
(definitely, one couldn't say OT1 supports any language
except English and a few others). This field is essentially
informative.

I understand hyphenchar (should be the same as in English in all mentioned
languages) but do not understand the other hyphen* fields.

Most of them are intended for luatex (only for the languages
they make sense, of course).

Javier

The minus sign in both Czech and Slovak should be –

The quotes in both Czech and Slovak are „ and “ (the closing quote has its
codepoint in Unicode but is rarely present in fonts, it is better to use
English opening quote which has the same shape).

In Czech (and maybe also in Slovak) the time separator is a period, in
sport results and time tables a colon is used.

Slovak: characters Ä Ď Ô Ť in index look strange to me, it should be proved
by a native Slovak speaker.

Hindi

See the note on the encoding above

A few misprints and missing items in the captions
bib = संदर्भ-ग्रन्थ (or संदर्भ-ग्रंथ)
contents - the version you have is one of the alternatives suggested by
Anshuman Pandey but most books I have bought in India contain अनुक्रम
part = खण्ड (or खंड)
page = पृष्ठ
proof = प्रमाण
glossary = शब्दार्थ सूची

cc, encl, and headto make no sense, I am probably the only man who writes
business e-mails in Hindi...

I have never seen abreviated months (a native Hindi speaker should help).
The only abbreviations for days of week I have seen at the Aligarh railway
station are:
Monday = सो॰, Tuesday = मं॰, Wednesday = बु॰, Thursday = बृह॰, Friday = शुक॰
(or शुक्र॰, the plate was not clearly readable), Saturday = शनि॰, Sunday =
रवि॰. I would not be surprized if the ॰ punctuation were omitted.

[characters] ङ and ञ are not used in Hindi, they should be removed from index

frenchspacing – I am afraid that it has no sense in Hindi as well as other
Indic languages. The proper spacing was implemented in GNU Freefont (at
least for Hindi) and is activated automatically by language switching. The
rules are explained (in Hindi only, links to other languages switch to a
different text) at
https://hi.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%80%E0%A4%A1%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%BE:%E0%A4%B9%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%80_%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%82_%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF_%E0%A4%97%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%81

punctuation: danda । and double danda ॥ should be listed as the most
important punctuation
quotes: either English double quotes or English single quotes are used
(depends on the preference of an author and/or a publisher)

number: Both Devanagari and Arabic digits are used, it is hard to say which
one should be he default

counters: the way how list items are numbered does not conform to the LaTeX
system. I have a normative document how it should be done, it is written in
Marathi and I probably have also a Hindi version. Unfortunately I have not
found time to implement it so far.

Zdeněk Wagner
http://ttsm.icpf.cas.cz/team/wagner.shtml
http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz

2016-03-23 19:31 GMT+01:00 Javier Bezos mailto:lis...@tex-tipografia.com>>:

Hi all,

I'm working on a new version of babel, with a new way to define
languages in a descriptive way, more than in a programmatic one (of
course, the latter won't be excluded because it's still necessary).

The idea is to create a set of ini file like those you can find on

https://latex-project.org/svnroot/latex2e-public/trunk/required/babel/locales/

They are tentative and some of them are incomplete. I'm working on the
code to read and 'transform' their data, but in the meanwhile I'd like
to improve the ini files. The first step in the roadmap is to provide
real utf-8 strings for captions and dates with current styles so
that they can be useable even without fontenc.

Any help or comments would be greatly appreciated.

[Crossposted to xetex and luatex lists.]

Javier

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Re: [XeTeX] babel

2016-03-24 Thread Javier Bezos


Apostolos,

> preface = \textPi \textrho\acctonos \textomicron\textlambda 
\textomicron\textgamma

>
> XeLaTeX is Unicode aware and can handle Unicode strings. Therefore, I 
fail to see
> why you are doing things this way. The LGR font encoding is an ancient 
hack that

> has no usage anymore.

Of course, in Unicode engines the default captions section
apply, not the captions.licr subsection.

Javier


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Re: [XeTeX] babel

2016-03-24 Thread Mojca Miklavec

On 23 March 2016 at 19:31, Javier Bezos  wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm working on a new version of babel, with a new way to define
> languages in a descriptive way, more than in a programmatic one (of
> course, the latter won't be excluded because it's still necessary).
>
> The idea is to create a set of ini file like those you can find on
>
> https://latex-project.org/svnroot/latex2e-public/trunk/required/babel/locales/
>
> They are tentative and some of them are incomplete. I'm working on the
> code to read and 'transform' their data, but in the meanwhile I'd like
> to improve the ini files. The first step in the roadmap is to provide
> real utf-8 strings for captions and dates with current styles so
> that they can be useable even without fontenc.
>
> Any help or comments would be greatly appreciated.

The alphabetic order here is completely confusing:

days.format.wide.fri =
days.format.wide.mon =
days.format.wide.sat =
days.format.wide.sun =
days.format.wide.thu =
days.format.wide.tue =
days.format.wide.wed =

What is the difference between captions and captions.licr?

What is the difference between months.format.wide and
months.stand-alone.wide? In Slovenian one sometimes uses the genetive
form of the date, like
Today is "24. marec 2016" (nominativ)
This happened on "24. marca 2016" (genetiv)
I don't know whether there is any sane way to encode this though.

I don't know how months.format.narrow is used, but a single letter is
completely useless because it's too ambiguous. One uses 24.3.2016 or
24.03.2016 (in tables etc. where aligning is important). Whether or
not there is space in date.short is debatable. (Officially it's
correct to use space, but almost nobody uses it.) Officially one is
also supposed to write time with a dot rather than colon, but most use
a colon.

German typography doesn't use French spacing as far as I know.

For Slovenian:
- OT1 and LY1 are not suitable encondings.
- Glossary is not a slovenian word. It should probably be "Slovar"
- headto = Prejme is weird
- righthyphenmin = 2
- I don't understand the zillion entries about hyphenchar, but it must
be similar to other European languages.
- Having just "quotes =" might not be sufficient if you want to
automatically support quotes one day like ConTeXt does with
\quote{...} and \quotation{...}. We use two flavours (one can decide
to use either one or the other) and in both flavours one has both
single and double quotes.
  (a) ›single‹ »double«
  (b) ‚single‘ „double“
- What is meant with "exponential = e"? (I use $2{,}1\cdot 10^{-5}$ or
perhaps \times instead of \cdot.) Isn't "e" just a convention for
entering numbers into computers that has absolutely nothing to do with
typography?

I'm not sure if it's correct to use "po n. št." or just "n. št." (at
some point you will probably have to introduce comments in those ini
files). But we don't have BCE. So you might want to use something like
this (I don't want to certify correctness):

eras.abbreviated.0-alt-variant = pr. Kr.
eras.abbreviated.0 = pr. n. št.
eras.abbreviated.1 = po n. št.
eras.abbreviated.1-alt-variant = po Kr.
eras.wide.0-alt-variant = pred Kristusom
eras.wide.0 = pred našim štetjem
eras.wide.1 = našega štetja % or "po našem štetju"
eras.wide.1-alt-variant = po Kristusu
eras.narrow.0-alt-variant = pr. Kr.
eras.narrow.0 = pr. n. št.
eras.narrow.1 = po n. št.
eras.narrow.1-alt-variant = po Kr.

The following is useless (= nobody will understand):

dayPeriods.format.narrow.am = d
dayPeriods.format.narrow.noon = n
dayPeriods.format.narrow.pm = p

We use numbers 0-23 to denote hour of the day rather than some bogus "d/n/p".

Mojca

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Re: [XeTeX] babel

2016-03-24 Thread Javier Bezos


Mojca,

Thank you. See me reply to Zdeněk.


What is the difference between months.format.wide and
months.stand-alone.wide?


In most languages, none. This distinction is made by the CLDR,
but I wonder if it's useful here, so very likely the format
branch should be removed.


In Slovenian one sometimes uses the genetive
form of the date, like
 Today is "24. marec 2016" (nominativ)
 This happened on "24. marca 2016" (genetiv)
I don't know whether there is any sane way to encode this though.


From the babel manual:

‘More interesting are differences in the sentence structure or related
to it. For example, in Basque the number precedes the name (including 
chapters), in Hungarian “from (1)” is “(1)-b˝ol”, but “from (3)” is 
“(3)-ból”, in Spanish an item labelled “3.o” may be referred to as

either “ítem 3.o” or “3.er ítem”, and so on.’

So, yes :-).

Javier




I don't know how months.format.narrow is used, but a single letter is
completely useless because it's too ambiguous. One uses 24.3.2016 or
24.03.2016 (in tables etc. where aligning is important). Whether or
not there is space in date.short is debatable. (Officially it's
correct to use space, but almost nobody uses it.) Officially one is
also supposed to write time with a dot rather than colon, but most use
a colon.

German typography doesn't use French spacing as far as I know.

For Slovenian:
- OT1 and LY1 are not suitable encondings.
- Glossary is not a slovenian word. It should probably be "Slovar"
- headto = Prejme is weird
- righthyphenmin = 2
- I don't understand the zillion entries about hyphenchar, but it must
be similar to other European languages.
- Having just "quotes =" might not be sufficient if you want to
automatically support quotes one day like ConTeXt does with
\quote{...} and \quotation{...}. We use two flavours (one can decide
to use either one or the other) and in both flavours one has both
single and double quotes.
   (a) ›single‹ »double«
   (b) ‚single‘ „double“
- What is meant with "exponential = e"? (I use $2{,}1\cdot 10^{-5}$ or
perhaps \times instead of \cdot.) Isn't "e" just a convention for
entering numbers into computers that has absolutely nothing to do with
typography?

I'm not sure if it's correct to use "po n. št." or just "n. št." (at
some point you will probably have to introduce comments in those ini
files). But we don't have BCE. So you might want to use something like
this (I don't want to certify correctness):

eras.abbreviated.0-alt-variant = pr. Kr.
eras.abbreviated.0 = pr. n. št.
eras.abbreviated.1 = po n. št.
eras.abbreviated.1-alt-variant = po Kr.
eras.wide.0-alt-variant = pred Kristusom
eras.wide.0 = pred našim štetjem
eras.wide.1 = našega štetja % or "po našem štetju"
eras.wide.1-alt-variant = po Kristusu
eras.narrow.0-alt-variant = pr. Kr.
eras.narrow.0 = pr. n. št.
eras.narrow.1 = po n. št.
eras.narrow.1-alt-variant = po Kr.

The following is useless (= nobody will understand):

dayPeriods.format.narrow.am = d
dayPeriods.format.narrow.noon = n
dayPeriods.format.narrow.pm = p

We use numbers 0-23 to denote hour of the day rather than some bogus "d/n/p".

Mojca



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Re: [XeTeX] babel

2016-03-24 Thread Javier Bezos


Apostolos,


preface = \textPi \textrho\acctonos \textomicron\textlambda 
\textomicron\textgamma

XeLaTeX is Unicode aware and can handle Unicode strings. Therefore, I fail to 
see
why you are doing things this way. The LGR font encoding is an ancient hack that
has no usage anymore.


Of course, in Unicode engines the default captions section
apply, not the captions.licr subsection.

Javier


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Re: [XeTeX] babel

2016-03-24 Thread Ross Moore

Hi Javier,

On Mar 24, 2016, at 5:59 PM, Javier Bezos 
mailto:jbez...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Apostolos,

preface = \textPi \textrho\acctonos \textomicron\textlambda 
\textomicron\textgamma

XeLaTeX is Unicode aware and can handle Unicode strings. Therefore, I fail to 
see
why you are doing things this way. The LGR font encoding is an ancient hack that
has no usage anymore.

Of course, in Unicode engines the default captions section
apply, not the captions.licr subsection.

I think that it is absolutely correct that you build in continuing support
for old encodings that may no longer be used with new documents.

The existence of old documents using such encodings certainly
warrants this — especially in the case of archives that process
old (La)TeX sources to create PDFs on the fly.

It is quite possible that in future these will be required to conform
to modern standards, rather than just reproduce exactly what those
sources did in past decades. Then there is the issue of old documents
being aggregated with newer ones, for “Collected Works”-like publications.

It is quite wrong to say that because we now have newer, better methods
that those older methods should be discarded entirely.


I’m facing exactly this problem, adapting  pdfx.sty  to be able to translate
Metadata provided in old encodings: KOI8-R, LGR, OT6 etc.
automatically into UTF-8, because the latter is required by XMP for
requirements to satisfy PDF/A, PDF/X and PDF/E standards.



Javier

Keep up the good work.

Cheers,

Ross


Dr Ross Moore

Mathematics Dept | Level 2, S2.638 AHH
Macquarie University, NSW 2109, Australia

T: +61 2 9850 8955  |  F: +61 2 9850 8114
M:+61 407 288 255  |  E: 
ross.mo...@mq.edu.au

http://www.maths.mq.edu.au


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Re: [XeTeX] babel

2016-03-25 Thread Zdenek Wagner

Hi all,

IMO the reason for such activity is to have one common declaration for all
engines so that everything is defined at one place and 8-bit babel as well
as that for XeTeX is generated from the same source.

Zdeněk Wagner
http://ttsm.icpf.cas.cz/team/wagner.shtml
http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz

2016-03-25 10:13 GMT+01:00 Apostolos Syropoulos :

>
>
> >
> >I think that it is absolutely correct that you build in continuing support
> >for old encodings that may no longer be used with new documents.
> >
>
> Personally, I think this is an absolutely wrong approach! For legacy
> documents,
> we have legacy enginees like TeX. More specifically, if one wants to use
> legacy
>
> 8-bit or 7-bit encodings and legacy fonts, then she can use TeX. There is
> absolutely
> no reason to use XeTeX! After all, this the reason why the TeX community
> includes
> in TeXLive things like dvips, METAFONT fonts, etc. Finally, XeLaTeX can
> process
> these documents with existing packages just fine, why bother rewriting old
> things
> with "modern" ink?
>
>
> Apostolos Syropoulos
>
>
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Re: [XeTeX] babel

2016-03-25 Thread Apostolos Syropoulos

>
>IMO the reason for such activity is to have one common declaration for all 
>engines so that everything 

>is defined at one place and 8-bit babel as well as that for XeTeX is generated 
>from the same source.
>

OK then let's stop compiling and distributing TeX, dvips, etc.! The approach: 
one tool for everything is
wrong, wrong! Although I rarely use Office suites, there are things that one 
can definitely do with
a scripting language and LaTeX but it is far easier to use a spreadsheet. I am 
not against Javier's
project I am just saying this is something the people who maintain babel should 
discuss.


A.S.

--Apostolos Syropoulos
Xanthi, Greece


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Re: [XeTeX] babel

2016-03-25 Thread Zdenek Wagner

2016-03-25 10:27 GMT+01:00 Apostolos Syropoulos :

> >
> >IMO the reason for such activity is to have one common declaration for
> all engines so that everything
>
> >is defined at one place and 8-bit babel as well as that for XeTeX is
> generated from the same source.
> >
>
> OK then let's stop compiling and distributing TeX, dvips, etc.! The
> approach: one tool for everything is
> wrong, wrong! Although I rarely use Office suites, there are things that
> one can definitely do with
> a scripting language and LaTeX but it is far easier to use a spreadsheet.
> I am not against Javier's
> project I am just saying this is something the people who maintain babel
> should discuss.
>

Why to stop it? I just feel easier to have one common source for everything
than maintaining a separate source for 8-bit babel, for babel for XeTeX,
for babel for luatex etc.

>
>
> A.S.
>



Zdeněk Wagner
http://ttsm.icpf.cas.cz/team/wagner.shtml
http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz



>
> --Apostolos Syropoulos
> Xanthi, Greece
>


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Re: [XeTeX] babel

2016-03-25 Thread Zdenek Wagner

Hi Ross and Javier,

there are two aspects. If I take an example of Czech and Slovak, many years
ago DC fonts and EC fonts were not suitable for Czech/Slovak typography,
therefore CS fonts with a different encoding were created. Now LM fonts as
well as TeX Gyre contain everything we need and are even better (only a few
people can really see the divverence between CS and LM). The old IL2
encoding was creased for the CS fonts and supported in cslatex. Jiří
Zlatuška prepared a patch for babel, gave it to me so tah I could extend
and publish it, it was later modified by several persons, the last one was
Petr Tesařík. The problem is that the support of two or more font encodings
requires a modification of the LaTeX kernel but it was not accepted by the
LaTeX team. Our patch was available from my web page but just very few
people really used it. Thus the result is that the only encoding for Czech
and Slovak that has ever been officially supported in babel is T1. It makes
no sense to introduce IL2 (and XL2 that was probably used by me only).

As far as collections of olde texts are concerned, there is no problem of
different font encodings but a problem of different input encodings. If I
take very old Czech/Slovak documents together with the newer ones, I will
kave a collection of files in 5 different encodings. Without reencoding the
files by iconv only encTeX ca cope with it. So we should keep the old
engines for legacy documents but it makes no sense to reproduce the old
input and old fonts in nowaday's engines.

Zdeněk Wagner
http://ttsm.icpf.cas.cz/team/wagner.shtml
http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz

2016-03-25 4:23 GMT+01:00 Ross Moore :

> Hi Javier,
>
> On Mar 24, 2016, at 5:59 PM, Javier Bezos  wrote:
>
> Apostolos,
>
> preface = \textPi \textrho\acctonos \textomicron\textlambda
> \textomicron\textgamma
>
> XeLaTeX is Unicode aware and can handle Unicode strings. Therefore, I fail
> to see
> why you are doing things this way. The LGR font encoding is an ancient
> hack that
> has no usage anymore.
>
>
> Of course, in Unicode engines the default captions section
> apply, not the captions.licr subsection.
>
>
> I think that it is absolutely correct that you build in continuing support
> for old encodings that may no longer be used with new documents.
>
> The existence of old documents using such encodings certainly
> warrants this — especially in the case of archives that process
> old (La)TeX sources to create PDFs on the fly.
>
> It is quite possible that in future these will be required to conform
> to modern standards, rather than just reproduce exactly what those
> sources did in past decades. Then there is the issue of old documents
> being aggregated with newer ones, for “Collected Works”-like publications.
>
> It is quite wrong to say that because we now have newer, better methods
> that those older methods should be discarded entirely.
>
>
> I’m facing exactly this problem, adapting  pdfx.sty  to be able to
> translate
> Metadata provided in old encodings: KOI8-R, LGR, OT6 etc.
> automatically into UTF-8, because the latter is required by XMP for
> requirements to satisfy PDF/A, PDF/X and PDF/E standards.
>
>
>
> Javier
>
>
> Keep up the good work.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Ross
>
>
> * Dr Ross Moore*
>
> *Mathematics Dept **|* Level 2, S2.638 AHH
> Macquarie University, NSW 2109, Australia
>
> *T:* +61 2 9850 *8955  |  F:* +61 2 9850 8114 <%2B61%202%209850%209695>
> *M:*+61 407 288 255 <%2B61%20409%20125%20670>*  |  *E:
> ross.mo...@mq.edu.au 
>
> http://www.maths.mq.edu.au 
>
>
> 
>
>
> CRICOS Provider Number 2J. Think before you print.
> Please consider the environment before printing this email.
> 
>
> This message is intended for the addressee named and may
> contain confidential information. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please delete it and notify the sender. Views expressed
> in this message are those of the individual sender, and are not
> necessarily the views of Macquarie University. 
>
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Re: [XeTeX] babel

2016-03-25 Thread Zdenek Wagner

2016-03-25 10:39 GMT+01:00 Apostolos Syropoulos :

>
>
> >
> >Why to stop it? I just feel easier to have one common source for
> everything than maintaining a separate source for 8-bit
> >babel, for babel for XeTeX, for babel for luatex etc.
> >
>
> Currently, there are more than 500 binaries in the TeXLive distribution.
> There is a reason for all these binaries.
> However, this makes things very complex and there is no reason to add
> complexity.
>

IMO one common source instead of three separate sources reduces complexity.
If you have several babels and you wish to correct something, you have to
apply the same correction manually several times, the same way in all
relevant files. If you have a single source, you do it just once and
everything will be built automatically.

>
> A.S.
>
>  --
> Apostolos Syropoulos
> Xanthi, Greece
>



Zdeněk Wagner
http://ttsm.icpf.cas.cz/team/wagner.shtml
http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz


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Re: [XeTeX] babel

2016-03-25 Thread Javier Bezos


El 25/03/2016 10:40, Zdenek Wagner escribió:


The old IL2 encoding was creased for the CS fonts and supported in
cslatex. [...] Thus the result is that
the only encoding for Czech and Slovak that has ever been officially
supported in babel is T1. It makes no sense to introduce IL2 (and XL2
that was probably used by me only).


Then perhaps there should be a further key, like for example:

encodings.deprecated

This will open the question about which encodings are deprecated.
For example, I think like Apostolos LGR should be one of them,
particularly because it doesn't conform to the LICR, but I presume
some others won't agree.

Javier






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Re: [XeTeX] babel

2016-03-25 Thread Zdenek Wagner

2016-03-25 12:38 GMT+01:00 Javier Bezos :

> El 25/03/2016 10:40, Zdenek Wagner escribió:
>
> The old IL2 encoding was creased for the CS fonts and supported in
>> cslatex. [...] Thus the result is that
>> the only encoding for Czech and Slovak that has ever been officially
>> supported in babel is T1. It makes no sense to introduce IL2 (and XL2
>> that was probably used by me only).
>>
>
> Then perhaps there should be a further key, like for example:
>
> encodings.deprecated
>

In case of IL2 it is not even deprecated but never supported.

>
> This will open the question about which encodings are deprecated.
> For example, I think like Apostolos LGR should be one of them,
> particularly because it doesn't conform to the LICR, but I presume
> some others won't agree.
>
> Javier
>
>
>
>
> Zdeněk Wagner
> http://ttsm.icpf.cas.cz/team/wagner.shtml
> http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz
>
>
>
>
>
>
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