Re: [XeTeX] Contextual Ligature Problems with OT Tamil Font Converted to AAT
2011/6/19 Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) : > What is a "kill file" ? Another platform-specific feature, I suppose ! http://lmgtfy.com/?q=kill+file&l=1 -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Contextual Ligature Problems with OT Tamil Font Converted to AAT
Alan Munn wrote: This is a useful and friendly list. Let's keep it that way. I had no intention of doing otherwise. I was asking for additional information, not levelling criticism. > Rather than entering into a long discussion with Pete about this, perhaps you could have verified your information by checking the documentation first, before accusing it of failing to mention things. I did not "accuse" it (the fontspec manual) of anything; I asked Pete if his statement was valid for all platforms. > Since almost everyone on this list has read the fontspec manual, "Almost everyone who uses XeLaTeX". I do not. Fontspec does not work with Plain XeTeX. So, as I have said before, there has never been any reason for me to read the fontspec manual. All I am trying to do (and it really doesn't seem unreasonable to me) is to ask that when people make statements which they know are platform-specific, but which others will not necessarily know, to make that platform-specificity explicit. Remember that all these messages are archived, and people will retrieve them via Google without knowing (or being aware of) the context in which they were made. The more useful background (such as "This will work only with MacOSX", or "this won't work with xdvipdfmx") that can be provided, the more use the message will be. Philip Taylor -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Contextual Ligature Problems with OT Tamil Font Converted to AAT
On Jun 19, 2011, at 7:53 AM, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote:
>
> Peter Dyballa wrote:
>
>> You could specify the renderer engine! Fontspec allows
>>
>> \fontspec[Renderer=AAT]{font}
>
> Is this meaningfully true for all platforms ? One of the
> few downsides to XeTeX is that sometimes a feature is
> platform-dependent yet the documentation and/or correspondence
> never mentions this fact.
Rather than entering into a long discussion with Pete about this, perhaps you
could have verified your information by checking the documentation first,
before accusing it of failing to mention things.
Section 12.3 of the fontspec manual: "XeTeX supports two rendering technologies
for typesetting, selected with the Renderer font feature. The first, AAT, is
that provided (only) by Mac OS X itself. The second, ICU, is an open source
OpenType interpreter. It provides much greater support for OpenType features,
notably contextual arrangement, over AAT."
Section 13 of the fontspec manual: "13 Mac OS X’s AAT fonts"
Since almost everyone on this list has read the fontspec manual, the chances
that a message which specifically mentioned the two font technologies in the
context of the Mac OS would be misinterpreted seems miniscule.
This is a useful and friendly list. Let's keep it that way.
Alan
--
Alan Munn
am...@gmx.com
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Re: [XeTeX] Contextual Ligature Problems with OT Tamil Font Converted to AAT
Am 19.06.2011 um 15:58 schrieb Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd): I am not complaining : I am asking for precision, which is another matter entirely. So, here is precision: AAT is a proprietary Mac OS X font technology from Apple (maybe doomed to die). It started as QuickDraw GX, on which XeTeX was originally written. AAT fonts were or still are for example Hoefler Text, Zapfino, Apple Chancery, Skia, some Arabic, Hebrew, and Chinese fonts,... AAT offers something like automatic, context sensitive, ligatures, correct use of medial and final forms. Look, as a starting point, into Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Advanced_Typography )! What is a "kill file" ? Another platform-specific feature, I suppose ! No, it's mailer specific. (At least I do not of an OS, maybe except of GNU Emacs, that is used entirely for mailing purposes.) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_file ) -- Greetings Pete Sending unsolicited commercial eMail to this account incurs a fee of € 500 per message and acknowledges the legality of this contract. -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Contextual Ligature Problems with OT Tamil Font Converted to AAT
On Jun 19, 2011, at 8:58 AM, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote: > > > Peter Dyballa wrote: >> >> Am 19.06.2011 um 15:14 schrieb Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd): >> >>> Yes, but your mail will be read by others (such as myself) >>> who are unaware of either of these facts, and will then be >>> misled into believing that it should work in their platform. >> >> The term "AAT" stands for "Apple Advanced Typography". The term is also >> used in the fontspec manual. And it appears in many files of the TeX >> distribution. >> >> You shouldn't blame me or others (you not included). But look into >> Wikipedia or some other source of wisdom and information. I am also sure >> that some simple facts can be learned. Like that it's bright when it's >> day and that it's dark when it's night. (At least on Earth.) Put into >> other words: I know where AAT, ICU, and Graphite belong to or come from >> and don't spend further thinking on this, it is to me as common as day >> and night are to most people. And since this is no hermetism or >> esotericism I use them in the same way as the ideas of day and night and >> some million other things. > > Then perhaps you are an Apple user. I am not. Millions of > potential readers of your message are not. They will have > no idea what AAT stands for. They will have no idea whether > or not they have an AAT renderer, or a Graphite renderer, > or any other renderer, as a part of their system. This does > not mean that they do not know that it is dark when it is night : > they inhabit the same real world as you, but a totally different > world when it comes to computers and computing. [1] > > I am not /blaming/ you, or anyone else : I am simply asking, > for the benefit of the vast majority of computer users that > do not use, and have zero experience of, an Apple Macintosh > computer, that when you (or others) make a statement that > is true only for the Apple Macintosh platform, you make that > plain, so that the rest of us do not spend hours wondering why > something does not work. > > This is directly analogous to the statement in Will's XeTeX > documentation that "color" may take a fourth (transparency) > byte in the extended font syntax; the statement is true, but > it will have no effect when "xdvipdfmx" (the default driver) > is used to process the file. Documentation is wonderful, > and everyone applauds those who write it, but for it to be > useful it must also be accurate. > >>> >>> /Please/, when making platform-specific statements, make >>> this obvious in the message; it will save a great deal >>> of grief and misunderstandings in the long run. >> >> I did not make platform specific statements, I made software, font, and >> font renderer specific statements. >> >> >> Does Graphite work on any platform? > > I have no idea. I know that my pencil "lead" is > really graphite, and I know it can be used as a lubricant, > but what it means in terms of fonts is completely opaque > to me (and, I suspect, to millions of others as well). > >> Why don't you complain here as well? > > I am not complaining : I am asking for precision, which > is another matter entirely. > >> >> Would it work to extend netiquette of this list to mention in the >> subject that the reported problem is specific to some OS so that >> recipients can put those OS words into their kill files? > > What is a "kill file" ? Another platform-specific feature, I suppose ! > > Philip Taylor > > [1] Apple Macintosh users are currently estimated as forming > less than 10% of the total worldwide computer base. Data > taken from W3Schools, which I would not normally cite, but > I have no reason to doubt this statement. > > http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp > Howdy, Since XeTeX uses system fonts and they are treated differently on different platforms it's only natural that platform specific things come up on this list. I have rarely, if ever, seen titles or content that tell you immediately what platform people are talking about although listening for a while gives you some information once you learn a bit about other platforms. So please, let's stop this. Oh... sorry, but one comment about the ``footnote'' in the message. I would suggest that Mac users are a considerably higher percentage of XeTeX users worldwide than the number quoted there. Good Luck, Herb Schulz (herbs at wideopenwest dot com) -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Contextual Ligature Problems with OT Tamil Font Converted to AAT
Peter Dyballa wrote: Am 19.06.2011 um 15:14 schrieb Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd): Yes, but your mail will be read by others (such as myself) who are unaware of either of these facts, and will then be misled into believing that it should work in their platform. The term "AAT" stands for "Apple Advanced Typography". The term is also used in the fontspec manual. And it appears in many files of the TeX distribution. You shouldn't blame me or others (you not included). But look into Wikipedia or some other source of wisdom and information. I am also sure that some simple facts can be learned. Like that it's bright when it's day and that it's dark when it's night. (At least on Earth.) Put into other words: I know where AAT, ICU, and Graphite belong to or come from and don't spend further thinking on this, it is to me as common as day and night are to most people. And since this is no hermetism or esotericism I use them in the same way as the ideas of day and night and some million other things. Then perhaps you are an Apple user. I am not. Millions of potential readers of your message are not. They will have no idea what AAT stands for. They will have no idea whether or not they have an AAT renderer, or a Graphite renderer, or any other renderer, as a part of their system. This does not mean that they do not know that it is dark when it is night : they inhabit the same real world as you, but a totally different world when it comes to computers and computing. [1] I am not /blaming/ you, or anyone else : I am simply asking, for the benefit of the vast majority of computer users that do not use, and have zero experience of, an Apple Macintosh computer, that when you (or others) make a statement that is true only for the Apple Macintosh platform, you make that plain, so that the rest of us do not spend hours wondering why something does not work. This is directly analogous to the statement in Will's XeTeX documentation that "color" may take a fourth (transparency) byte in the extended font syntax; the statement is true, but it will have no effect when "xdvipdfmx" (the default driver) is used to process the file. Documentation is wonderful, and everyone applauds those who write it, but for it to be useful it must also be accurate. /Please/, when making platform-specific statements, make this obvious in the message; it will save a great deal of grief and misunderstandings in the long run. I did not make platform specific statements, I made software, font, and font renderer specific statements. Does Graphite work on any platform? I have no idea. I know that my pencil "lead" is really graphite, and I know it can be used as a lubricant, but what it means in terms of fonts is completely opaque to me (and, I suspect, to millions of others as well). Why don't you complain here as well? I am not complaining : I am asking for precision, which is another matter entirely. Would it work to extend netiquette of this list to mention in the subject that the reported problem is specific to some OS so that recipients can put those OS words into their kill files? What is a "kill file" ? Another platform-specific feature, I suppose ! Philip Taylor [1] Apple Macintosh users are currently estimated as forming less than 10% of the total worldwide computer base. Data taken from W3Schools, which I would not normally cite, but I have no reason to doubt this statement. http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Contextual Ligature Problems with OT Tamil Font Converted to AAT
Am 19.06.2011 um 15:14 schrieb Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd): Yes, but your mail will be read by others (such as myself) who are unaware of either of these facts, and will then be misled into believing that it should work in their platform. The term "AAT" stands for "Apple Advanced Typography". The term is also used in the fontspec manual. And it appears in many files of the TeX distribution. You shouldn't blame me or others (you not included). But look into Wikipedia or some other source of wisdom and information. I am also sure that some simple facts can be learned. Like that it's bright when it's day and that it's dark when it's night. (At least on Earth.) Put into other words: I know where AAT, ICU, and Graphite belong to or come from and don't spend further thinking on this, it is to me as common as day and night are to most people. And since this is no hermetism or esotericism I use them in the same way as the ideas of day and night and some million other things. /Please/, when making platform-specific statements, make this obvious in the message; it will save a great deal of grief and misunderstandings in the long run. I did not make platform specific statements, I made software, font, and font renderer specific statements. Does Graphite work on any platform? Why don't you complain here as well? Would it work to extend netiquette of this list to mention in the subject that the reported problem is specific to some OS so that recipients can put those OS words into their kill files? -- Greetings Pete From error to error, one discovers the entire truth. - Sigmund Freud -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Contextual Ligature Problems with OT Tamil Font Converted to AAT
Peter Dyballa wrote: Am 19.06.2011 um 13:53 schrieb Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd): Is this meaningfully true for all platforms ? Of course not. But Blake used Apple Mail to send his message and he also mentions Mac OS X as the OS he uses, where his problems occur. So I tried to use my brain and mentioned this AAT stuff... Yes, but your mail will be read by others (such as myself) who are unaware of either of these facts, and will then be misled into believing that it should work in their platform. /Please/, when making platform-specific statements, make this obvious in the message; it will save a great deal of grief and misunderstandings in the long run. Philip Taylor -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Contextual Ligature Problems with OT Tamil Font Converted to AAT
On Jun 19, 2011, at 7:55 AM, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote:
>
>
> Herbert Schulz wrote:
>
>>> Peter Dyballa wrote:
>>>
You could specify the renderer engine! Fontspec allows
\fontspec[Renderer=AAT]{font}
>>>
>>> Is this meaningfully true for all platforms ? One of the
>>> few downsides to XeTeX is that sometimes a feature is
>>> platform-dependent yet the documentation and/or correspondence
>>> never mentions this fact.
>>>
>>> Philip Taylor
>>>
>>
>> Howdy,
>>
>> And, of course, the availability of a give font is individual machine and
>> possibly even user dependent.
>
> Yes, but I really meant "Renderer=AAT" rather than "{font}" !
> ** Phil.
>
Howdy,
Understood, but it appears that font is meant to be used on a Mac (do other
platforms support AAT?) so that's the same thing in this case and using that
option will work on any Mac system that has that font.
Good Luck,
Herb Schulz
(herbs at wideopenwest dot com)
--
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Re: [XeTeX] Contextual Ligature Problems with OT Tamil Font Converted to AAT
Am 19.06.2011 um 13:53 schrieb Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd): Is this meaningfully true for all platforms ? Of course not. But Blake used Apple Mail to send his message and he also mentions Mac OS X as the OS he uses, where his problems occur. So I tried to use my brain and mentioned this AAT stuff... -- Greetings Pete Mac OS X is like a wigwam: no fences, no gates, but an apache inside. -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Contextual Ligature Problems with OT Tamil Font Converted to AAT
Herbert Schulz wrote:
Peter Dyballa wrote:
You could specify the renderer engine! Fontspec allows
\fontspec[Renderer=AAT]{font}
Is this meaningfully true for all platforms ? One of the
few downsides to XeTeX is that sometimes a feature is
platform-dependent yet the documentation and/or correspondence
never mentions this fact.
Philip Taylor
Howdy,
And, of course, the availability of a give font is individual machine and
possibly even user dependent.
Yes, but I really meant "Renderer=AAT" rather than "{font}" !
** Phil.
--
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Re: [XeTeX] Contextual Ligature Problems with OT Tamil Font Converted to AAT
On Jun 19, 2011, at 6:53 AM, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote:
>
>
> Peter Dyballa wrote:
>
>> You could specify the renderer engine! Fontspec allows
>>
>> \fontspec[Renderer=AAT]{font}
>
> Is this meaningfully true for all platforms ? One of the
> few downsides to XeTeX is that sometimes a feature is
> platform-dependent yet the documentation and/or correspondence
> never mentions this fact.
>
> Philip Taylor
>
Howdy,
And, of course, the availability of a give font is individual machine and
possibly even user dependent.
Good Luck,
Herb Schulz
(herbs at wideopenwest dot com)
--
Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.:
http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Contextual Ligature Problems with OT Tamil Font Converted to AAT
Peter Dyballa wrote:
You could specify the renderer engine! Fontspec allows
\fontspec[Renderer=AAT]{font}
Is this meaningfully true for all platforms ? One of the
few downsides to XeTeX is that sometimes a feature is
platform-dependent yet the documentation and/or correspondence
never mentions this fact.
Philip Taylor
--
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Re: [XeTeX] Contextual Ligature Problems with OT Tamil Font Converted to AAT
Am 18.06.2011 um 23:20 schrieb Blake Wentworth:
I would be delighted to know where the source of the initial problem
lies
You could specify the renderer engine! Fontspec allows
\fontspec[Renderer=AAT]{font}
(other options are ICU, usable for most fonts, and Graphite, usable
for just a few "Graphite" fonts). This way you can force the use of
AAT instead of OTF features.
There are additional TeX documents, AAT-info.tex and OpenType-
info.tex, which can be found somewhere on the internet. When you
insert into the files the name of your font and run xetex on them,
then you'll get lists of AAT and OTF features XeTeX could detect in
the produced PDF output.
--
Greetings
Pete
Bake pizza not war!
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