Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
Hi Michel! Can you post or move you conversation with Eich to this list? It's interesting for me too ... On Fri, 31 May 2002, Michel D?nzer wrote: > On Mon, 2002-05-27 at 19:44, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > > In other words, all the work involving the Video card is already done. > > > > > > > > > > Now you are wrong. :) > > > > > > > > > > The X server disables video devices it doesn't use. > > > > > > > > DOH! That seems like a really dumb Idea. Is it easy to make it not disable > > > > the other cards? Would that gum up other stuff? > > > > > > I think so, but Egbert Eich is the man who knows all about this. > > > > I haven't seen that name here yet. Got his e-mail? > > eich (at) xfree86 (dot) org > > > -- > Earthling Michel D?nzer (MrCooper)/ Debian GNU/Linux (powerpc) developer > XFree86 and DRI project member / CS student, Free Software enthusiast > ___ > Xpert mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert -- Best regards. Igor V. Gots ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
On Mon, 2002-05-27 at 19:43, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > In other words, all the work involving the Video card is already done. > > > > > > Now you are wrong. :) > > > > > > The X server disables video devices it doesn't use. > > > > DOH! That seems like a really dumb Idea. Is it easy to make it not disable > > the other cards? Would that gum up other stuff? > > I may be wrong, but I think it's not really so dumb when there is > only one X server: the cards share the I/O address space, so unless > you disable all but the one that you're communicating with at the > moment, you're in trouble. But that also means that simply removing > this device disabling doesn't solve the problem (generally). That's > what the already mentioned patch (you know, the one from Brazil) > does, besides adding USB keyboard support, etc. It does work for some > cards and not for others; also, even for the nVidia's that work (with > nVidia's closed source drivers), video mode changes hang the machine. > > So, as I already said, I think some kind of serialization of video > device accesses is needed between the multiple X servers. Or maybe memory-mapped PCI access to the VGA registers would help? I feel a clean solution will be hard to achieve without kernel support to say the least though. -- Earthling Michel Dänzer (MrCooper)/ Debian GNU/Linux (powerpc) developer XFree86 and DRI project member / CS student, Free Software enthusiast ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
On Mon, 2002-05-27 at 19:44, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > In other words, all the work involving the Video card is already done. > > > > > > > > Now you are wrong. :) > > > > > > > > The X server disables video devices it doesn't use. > > > > > > DOH! That seems like a really dumb Idea. Is it easy to make it not disable > > > the other cards? Would that gum up other stuff? > > > > I think so, but Egbert Eich is the man who knows all about this. > > I haven't seen that name here yet. Got his e-mail? eich (at) xfree86 (dot) org -- Earthling Michel Dänzer (MrCooper)/ Debian GNU/Linux (powerpc) developer XFree86 and DRI project member / CS student, Free Software enthusiast ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
> > > So, as I already said, I think some kind of serialization of video > > > device accesses is needed between the multiple X servers. > > > > So who would be qualified to attempt such a thing? > > Who do we have to beg ? :) > > Well, I'm still hoping that perhaps some XFree Xpert (this is the > right mailing list, isn't it?) will either confirm or refute my > assumptions about the inner working of XFree VGA device access, and > ideally even provide some advice. Then, I'm willing (and eager) to > have a try at this mighty task... It seems my hope is in vain. I will try a more specific question, then. What if I force the variable needRAC (or was it need_RAC) to true? The server would then call xf86EnableAccess(screen_nr) every time they need access to a video card. However, AFAICS there is no way of notifying the RAC subsystem of no longer using the card, or is there? I want to avoid having to change the drivers. Do you think that it would be sufficient to guarantee free access to the video card for, say, 1 second after the return from xf86EnableAccess(), and then allowing the other running X servers to gain access? Vaclav Dvorak [EMAIL PROTECTED] IDAS, s.r.o.http://www.idas.cz ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 28 May 2002 6:17 am, Bharathi S wrote: > On Mon, 27 May 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > I saw a demo of Linux + XFree86 4.1.0 > > > with 4 DISPLAY( Mon,KB, mouse). > > > > Yeah, I have that working too. But next time you see it, try > > switching to a console, or running a DGA app... and then run fast. > > > > :-))) > > Yes i will try :-) > > what is DGA app & fast ?? "run fast" something you do with legs "DGA app" games... that sort of thing > > TIA, -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE88y1uoRvfZQkd7qoRAkObAJ0bQtRyi9B0mF2k4AeLhEC68T3BnACfb0Wf h/9wt5YZg3zBH9J1menLCwU= =lIrh -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
On Mon, 27 May 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > I saw a demo of Linux + XFree86 4.1.0 > > with 4 DISPLAY( Mon,KB, mouse). > > > Yeah, I have that working too. But next time you see it, try > switching to a console, or running a DGA app... and then run fast. > :-))) Yes i will try :-) what is DGA app & fast ?? TIA, -- --==| Bharathi S | BSB-364 DONLab | IIT-Madras |==-- Self-rule leads to realms of gods Indulgence leads to gloomy hades. *In Tirukkural of Holy Tamil poet Tiruvalluvar. ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
> > So, as I already said, I think some kind of serialization of video > > device accesses is needed between the multiple X servers. > > So who would be qualified to attempt such a thing? > Who do we have to beg ? :) Well, I'm still hoping that perhaps some XFree Xpert (this is the right mailing list, isn't it?) will either confirm or refute my assumptions about the inner working of XFree VGA device access, and ideally even provide some advice. Then, I'm willing (and eager) to have a try at this mighty task... > >> I saw a demo of Linux + XFree86 4.1.0 > >> with 4 DISPLAY( Mon,KB, mouse). > >> > >> All USB KBs are connected to a MiniUSB Hub and Hub is > >> connected to machine, And USB mouses also connected in > >> similar way. > > > >Yeah, I have that working too. But next time you see it, try > >switching to a console, or running a DGA app... and then run fast. > >:-))) > > so how does this work? Or will it crash randomly? I think I already wrote this, but anyway: I use the patch from http://cambuca.ldhs.cetuc.puc-rio.br/multiuser/ with XFree 4.1.0. (I tried 4.2.0 but the USB keyboard doesn't work, and there's no visible improvement in stability or anything.) I've modified the patch to avoid disabling not only pci I/O accesses but also memory accesses. With this config, I can run four X servers, each using one nVidia, one keyboard and one mouse. This works with the closed-source drivers from nVidia, when BIOS-driven card initialization is disabled (the default). When you enable BIOS (interrupt 10h) in the nVidia driver options, or when you use the open-source nVidia driver that is included in XFree, or when you use for example ATI cards, S3 cards etc., the computer hangs totally at the moment you start the second X server. (Also reported working are Matrox cards, but I have no personal experience with them.) Even in the working configuration, though, you can't use Ctrl+Alt+Fn to switch to the console, and you can't make VMWARE run in full-screen mode (unless the VM's resolution is the same as XFree's). When you try that, the computer hangs completely. Otherwise, it seems stable. Might be usable for home when you are aware of the limitations, but not for offices, public places etc. As to the VMWARE full-screen problem - I am not completely sure here, but is it using the DGA extension or what? Because normal mode switching with Ctrl+Alt+plus/minus works (i.e. does NOT hang the machine), so VMWARE must do it somehow differently... Vaclav Dvorak [EMAIL PROTECTED] IDAS, s.r.o.http://www.idas.cz ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 > So, as I already said, I think some kind of serialization of video > device accesses is needed between the multiple X servers. So who would be qualified to attempt such a thing? Who do we have to beg ? :) >> I saw a demo of Linux + XFree86 4.1.0 >> with 4 DISPLAY( Mon,KB, mouse). >> >> All USB KBs are connected to a MiniUSB Hub and Hub is >> connected to machine, And USB mouses also connected in >> similar way. > >Yeah, I have that working too. But next time you see it, try >switching to a console, or running a DGA app... and then run fast. >:-))) so how does this work? Or will it crash randomly? JohnFlux -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE88m6ZoRvfZQkd7qoRAni1AKC1lWwJx4/50EHI8eHNgEWdIPoAAgCeJXZk 4IB0osdYvHgKx75F1Cf+cyk= =F8Os -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
> I saw a demo of Linux + XFree86 4.1.0 > with 4 DISPLAY( Mon,KB, mouse). > > All USB KBs are connected to a MiniUSB Hub and Hub is > connected to machine, And USB mouses also connected in > similar way. Yeah, I have that working too. But next time you see it, try switching to a console, or running a DGA app... and then run fast. :-))) Vaclav Dvorak [EMAIL PROTECTED] IDAS, s.r.o.http://www.idas.cz ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
> > > > In other words, all the work involving the Video card is already done. > > > > > > Now you are wrong. :) > > > > > > The X server disables video devices it doesn't use. > > > > DOH! That seems like a really dumb Idea. Is it easy to make it not disable > > the other cards? Would that gum up other stuff? > > I think so, but Egbert Eich is the man who knows all about this. I haven't seen that name here yet. Got his e-mail? Vaclav Dvorak [EMAIL PROTECTED] IDAS, s.r.o.http://www.idas.cz ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
> > > In other words, all the work involving the Video card is already done. > > > > Now you are wrong. :) > > > > The X server disables video devices it doesn't use. > > DOH! That seems like a really dumb Idea. Is it easy to make it not disable > the other cards? Would that gum up other stuff? I may be wrong, but I think it's not really so dumb when there is only one X server: the cards share the I/O address space, so unless you disable all but the one that you're communicating with at the moment, you're in trouble. But that also means that simply removing this device disabling doesn't solve the problem (generally). That's what the already mentioned patch (you know, the one from Brazil) does, besides adding USB keyboard support, etc. It does work for some cards and not for others; also, even for the nVidia's that work (with nVidia's closed source drivers), video mode changes hang the machine. So, as I already said, I think some kind of serialization of video device accesses is needed between the multiple X servers. Vaclav Dvorak [EMAIL PROTECTED] IDAS, s.r.o.http://www.idas.cz ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
Hello all, I saw a demo of Linux + XFree86 4.1.0 with 4 DISPLAY( Mon,KB, mouse). All USB KBs are connected to a MiniUSB Hub and Hub is connected to machine, And USB mouses also connected in similar way. At the time booting, they started 4 GDM. Each Display having separate Config File. They modified the Xserver code so that all KBs and mouses are not mapped as single. I don't known more detail about it. TIA, -- --==| Bharathi S | BSB-364 DONLab | IIT-Madras |==-- Not to laugh is friendship made But to hit when faults exceed. *In Tirukkural of Holy Tamil poet Tiruvalluvar. ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
On Fri, 2002-05-24 at 19:44, Trent Whaley wrote: > On May 24, 2002 10:12 am, Michel Dänzer wrote: > > On Fri, 2002-05-24 at 19:08, Trent Whaley wrote: > > > >From `man 5 XF86Config`: > > > > > > DEVICE SECTION > > > ... > > >BusID "bus-id" > > > ... > > > In other words, all the work involving the Video card is already done. > > > > Now you are wrong. :) > > > > The X server disables video devices it doesn't use. > > DOH! That seems like a really dumb Idea. Is it easy to make it not disable > the other cards? Would that gum up other stuff? I think so, but Egbert Eich is the man who knows all about this. -- Earthling Michel Dänzer (MrCooper)/ Debian GNU/Linux (powerpc) developer XFree86 and DRI project member / CS student, Free Software enthusiast ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
On May 24, 2002 10:12 am, Michel Dänzer wrote: > On Fri, 2002-05-24 at 19:08, Trent Whaley wrote: > > >From `man 5 XF86Config`: > > > > DEVICE SECTION > > ... > >BusID "bus-id" > > ... > > In other words, all the work involving the Video card is already done. > > Now you are wrong. :) > > The X server disables video devices it doesn't use. DOH! That seems like a really dumb Idea. Is it easy to make it not disable the other cards? Would that gum up other stuff? > > > It might even work with cards that do multiple heads on the same card > > (the function parameter). > > Might work if the chips offered several functions, but they don't > AFAICS. Bummer. ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 > There is no accelleration in fbdev. But will there be? Is it possible? btw, whats GGI or whatever it is? JohnFlux -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE87ncYoRvfZQkd7qoRAqxcAKC1Bh9Ruw5Seg0INPkC6W5DChLsSACgoRWd uV2GjgGiRpLLC+UDJUAo910= =FjBs -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
On Fri, 2002-05-24 at 20:11, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Are you aware of the linuxconsole project at > > > linuxconsole.sourceforge.net, looks like this kind of thing is included > > > in thier plans. Stuff is already getting merged into the 2.5 development > > > kernels. > > Hmmm... OK, but this gives us only the VT's, keyboards and mice - the > video problem is the same, isn't it? That is, unless we want to use > the fbdev, losing all acceleration and support for many cards. Or am > I wrong - is there some acceleration in the framebuffer and its X > driver? Not with the fbdev driver, but acceleration is perfectly possible with framebuffer devices. Some drivers can use a framebuffer device while offering full acceleration. -- Earthling Michel Dänzer (MrCooper)/ Debian GNU/Linux (powerpc) developer XFree86 and DRI project member / CS student, Free Software enthusiast ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
On Fri, 2002-05-24 at 19:08, Trent Whaley wrote: > > >From `man 5 XF86Config`: > > DEVICE SECTION > ... >BusID "bus-id" > This specifies the bus location of the graphics card. For PCI/AGP >cards, the bus-id string has the form PCI:bus:device:func > tion (e.g., "PCI:1:0:0" might be appropriate for an AGP card). This >field is usually optional in single-head configurations > when using the primary graphics card. In multi-head configurations, >or when using a secondary graphics card in a single-head > configuration, this entry is mandatory. Its main purpose is to make >an unambiguous connection between the device section and > the hardware it is representing. This information can usually be >found by running the X server with the -scanpci command line > option. > > > In other words, all the work involving the Video card is already done. Now you are wrong. :) The X server disables video devices it doesn't use. > It might even work with cards that do multiple heads on the same card > (the function parameter). Might work if the chips offered several functions, but they don't AFAICS. -- Earthling Michel Dänzer (MrCooper)/ Debian GNU/Linux (powerpc) developer XFree86 and DRI project member / CS student, Free Software enthusiast ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
> > Hmmm... OK, but this gives us only the VT's, keyboards and mice - the > video problem is the same, isn't it? That is, unless we want to use > the fbdev, losing all acceleration and support for many cards. Or am > I wrong - is there some acceleration in the framebuffer and its X > driver? You are wrong. There is no accelleration in fbdev. I did not just contradict myself. it will become clear further down this message. > XFree > currently expects that it is the only program accessing any video > hardware, XFree assumes it is the only program accessing that particular card. > If I remember correctly, the original VGA has I/O ports at somewhere > around 0x3C0, and memory at ... > Again, if I understand correctly, for multiple X servers we would > have to isolate all shared I/O port accesses and enclose them in > lock acquire/lock release. For the rest of the servers' lifetime > (when no mode change is occuring), the cards' I/O access should stay > disabled. Right? Wrong. > Now, please tell me, someone knowledgeable, if my above written > guesses and conclusions are anywhere near the truth. :-) Thanks. Nope. > In the positive case, is it even possible to isolate I/O accesses in > a driver-independent way? Where would I start? I'm willing to try to > do the hard work, but I need guidance from someone who understands > XFree internals. (Even then, it may prove to be too much for me...) >From `man 5 XF86Config`: DEVICE SECTION ... BusID "bus-id" This specifies the bus location of the graphics card. For PCI/AGP cards, the bus-id string has the form PCI:bus:device:func tion (e.g., "PCI:1:0:0" might be appropriate for an AGP card). This field is usually optional in single-head configurations when using the primary graphics card. In multi-head configurations, or when using a secondary graphics card in a single-head configuration, this entry is mandatory. Its main purpose is to make an unambiguous connection between the device section and the hardware it is representing. This information can usually be found by running the X server with the -scanpci command line option. In other words, all the work involving the Video card is already done. It might even work with cards that do multiple heads on the same card (the function parameter). ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
> > Are you aware of the linuxconsole project at > > linuxconsole.sourceforge.net, looks like this kind of thing is included > > in thier plans. Stuff is already getting merged into the 2.5 development > > kernels. Hmmm... OK, but this gives us only the VT's, keyboards and mice - the video problem is the same, isn't it? That is, unless we want to use the fbdev, losing all acceleration and support for many cards. Or am I wrong - is there some acceleration in the framebuffer and its X driver? > 1) Some way for two (human and unix) users to get their own desktops, > completely seperated for security reasons etc etc. As ppl have pointed out, > either with two seperate servers, or one server with security somehow bolted > on. That's what I want to do. OK, you all have convinced me that the multi- user single-server is not a good idea. In that case, we face the problem of conflicting VGA card access by multiple servers. XFree currently expects that it is the only program accessing any video hardware, which obviously is a mistaken assumption in the case we want to implement. Now, I am afraid I miss a piece of technical background here, so please, fill me in if possible, or point me to a resource: If I remember correctly, the original VGA has I/O ports at somewhere around 0x3C0, and memory at 0xA (or 0xB, or 0xB8000). Now, with PCI/AGP VGA cards, I assumed that the address ranges are dynamically allocated at startup just like with other PCI devices, with some kind of a hack to support backwards compatibility. However, this does not seem to be the case. Many modern VGA's that I have seen have no I/O port entry in /proc/pci (some do - my ATI All In Wonder 128 has 0xC000 - 0xC0FF). Does it mean that they use only the backwards-compatible I/O addresses? Or do they use memory I/O instead? (Because they do have a memory address listed in /proc/pci.) If I guess correctly, the multiple VGA's share the backwards- compatible I/O port range at 0x3Cx. Certainly, it seems so from the files vgaHW.[ch]. This must mean that for any access to these ports - initialization, mode change etc. - all other VGA's bus access must be disabled and only the one VGA enabled. From what I have seen, it seems that currently X disables all VGA's bus access except for the one (or more) that it handles, and it stays that way for the lifetime of the server, except for mode changes, VT switches etc. Again, if I understand correctly, for multiple X servers we would have to isolate all shared I/O port accesses and enclose them in lock acquire/lock release. For the rest of the servers' lifetime (when no mode change is occuring), the cards' I/O access should stay disabled. Right? (This all should apply to shared memory accesses too, I suppose - except I'm not sure what would happen to a DGA application writing to the framebuffer while memory access is disabled for that card??? Or are applications never writing directly to the card's framebuffer?) Now, please tell me, someone knowledgeable, if my above written guesses and conclusions are anywhere near the truth. :-) Thanks. In the positive case, is it even possible to isolate I/O accesses in a driver-independent way? Where would I start? I'm willing to try to do the hard work, but I need guidance from someone who understands XFree internals. (Even then, it may prove to be too much for me...) Thanks for all input. I'm glad I at least managed to stir a discussion this time. :-) Vaclav Dvorak [EMAIL PROTECTED] IDAS, s.r.o.http://www.idas.cz ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 > You would be correct, unless someone has written an X server with a VNC > Server built in. Hmm.. have there been any attempts at this? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE87iT9oRvfZQkd7qoRAhvKAJ4tJMMEQcFAB4XPRDOlaeTB5vxJfgCglcZ3 YALGO5mBY53x3bA3AGtYS6I= =Fq7T -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
... > > > I.e. two ppl share a desktop. ... >> > > Run one VNCServer so two people can view it ... > > Excellent. > > Now, can anyone see a need for two cursors (or seperate keyboards etc) on > one physical display? When using a pen/tablet input device with drawing software and using a mouse for window management. Or when useing a CAD/GIS digitizing puck. Both of these applications though, you can include the special purpose input device in your application software and constrain the pointer for it to your application window, thus allowing the application to handle it. 2 keyboards may be necessary for embedded stuff like aeroplane flight controls with keypads in many places, but then you're probably not using *NIX for that anyways. Might also be handy for Non-linear sound/video editing. > Btw, what would the overhead be on having the normal display being a VNC > client, with a VNC server on the same machine? For most apps it would probably be OK, but anything with OpenGL, you just wouldn't want to do it. You also wouldn't want to do it on a slightly out of date computer. > ... Would I be correct in believing there > is no way of taking my current, non-VNC X session and allowing someone to > connect to using VNC? You would be correct, unless someone has written an X server with a VNC Server built in. ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 24 May 2002 1:10 am, Trent wrote: > > 2) Some way for one unix user, but two human users to use the machine. > > I.e. two ppl share a desktop. I would like this so that I can work on > > one half one monitor, and gf on other monitor, then if we want each other > > to look at something we can drag it across to each other etc.This may > > however be emulated somehow from "1)" > > Run one VNCServer so two people can view it with their own VNC clients. > That way only the stuff you really want to share is shared. It's also a > whole lot easier to build (no changes nescesary at all if they're not on > the same physical machine. Excellent. Now, can anyone see a need for two cursors (or seperate keyboards etc) on one physical display? If not, then the problem pretty much reduces down to, well, nothing. Just making sure X plays nicely with the linuxconsole stuff. Am I missing anything? Btw, what would the overhead be on having the normal display being a VNC client, with a VNC server on the same machine? Just thinking about you could have XDM/KDM/GDM launch a VNC client by default... that would make it easier for someone to connect to.. Would I be correct in believing there is no way of taking my current, non-VNC X session and allowing someone to connect to using VNC? JohnFlux -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE87ayXoRvfZQkd7qoRArAwAJ4jnpn3Qvpvo2kwL50ktlklau9rkQCaA/tX 1SHHs7kWXxiQvXDO/pL3ySQ= =mQ2L -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 > Are you aware of the linuxconsole project at > linuxconsole.sourceforge.net, looks like this kind of thing is included > in thier plans. Stuff is already getting merged into the 2.5 development > kernels. Several years ago (jeez, that long.. how time flies - sigh) I was trying to do the same thing dvorak, and came to the conclusion to wait for the VT clean up. Now that it looks like it is nearly done, and says it will be in the kernel soon, it looks like work on this can begin. I'm up for helping out on this - although I hope the code hasn't changed much over the last few years *grin*. There seems to be two seperate ways that both need to be implemented: 1) Some way for two (human and unix) users to get their own desktops, completely seperated for security reasons etc etc. As ppl have pointed out, either with two seperate servers, or one server with security somehow bolted on. 2) Some way for one unix user, but two human users to use the machine. I.e. two ppl share a desktop. I would like this so that I can work on one half one monitor, and gf on other monitor, then if we want each other to look at something we can drag it across to each other etc.This may however be emulated somehow from "1)" JohnFlux btw, is the Arm chip byte addressed or word addressed? I still can't figure at arm architecture, and got an exam on it on monday.. sigh -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE87X9ooRvfZQkd7qoRArU9AJ42GEpHyXX2YIdSUsnzzW1/ix5ffQCeJXE9 8J5FIaeCjUsp7M5xEhQXvLc= =2JD2 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
On Thu, 23 May 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I think a better way would be to use only one instance of XFree, have > it handle multiple monitors (that already works just fine!) WITHOUT > Xinerama, and add more event queues, each for one screen/user. And of > course, add support for multiple (USB) keyboards (at least two > solutions exist) and multiple mice with one cursor each. > > > 2) You could not go through the kernel and instead attempt to access the video > > card manually or through the frame buffer or something smart - and some has > > done this, and posted various patches.. although that still only allows a > > max of two heads. > > I don't quite understand what you mean by this, but again - I don't > think this is the problem, multi-head support is already working. > (Maybe not for all cards, though.) > > > 3) You could use something like Xinerama (sp?) to have one desktop but over > > multiple monitors. > > That's not what I want - I want multiple independent desktops. > > > 4) You can have more than one mouse, but currently you can't have more than > > one cursor on a particular X server. > > Right - this would have to be changed. > > > I think this is because of a limitation > > in the actual X protocol - if so, don't expect this to be fixed any time soon > > either. > > I don't think the X protocol has anything to do with it. Isn't the > multi-screen support much like two independent X servers already? How > closely coupled are screens :0.0 and :0.1? For events, they are very closely coupled. As I understand it the point is that :0.0 and :0.1 are intended to be used by one user, however many keyboards and mice they may be using. :0 and :1 are intended to indicate separate user stations, and the most obvious way of doing that is separate X server processes. > The protocol is the interface between the client and the server, and > in that respect, I don't propose any change: the client would still > be seeing only one cursor, but depending on which screen it is > attached to, it would be one of the existing cursors. With one server instance (process) running 2 user stations, we would need chinese walls to ensure that my cursor could never wander onto your screen. If it could I could cut and paste your text, type in your windows, and all security would be gone. It seems the 2 X instances/processes is the right answer here. While I admit that it *might* turn out to be easier to build the chinese walls than fix the crashes when two processes are trying to talk to hardware at the same time, both DRI and the kernel framebuffers appear to be sensible approaches to solving that problem. -- Dr. Andrew C. Aitchison Computer Officer, DPMMS, Cambridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.dpmms.cam.ac.uk/~werdna ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
<< Quotes come from several messages on this thread. > The way I see is providing multiple event queues, one for each user > (=screen, or even set of screens), and attach one keyboard and one > mouse to each queue. And make one mouse cursor for each queue. I'm > probably missing something important, but on first view, that seems > to be it. Any insight? This is very bad. Each user should have their own server. It's just easier, more elegant, more secure, and more stable that way. What if one user logs out? this kills the X-Server. Or were you planning on re-writing the XDM protocol too? What if one user's app listens to events for the other's screen while the other user is typing in a passphrase? What if one user starts running a GL-intensive app? I think the way to go is to modify the X-Server so that grabbing a VT is optional, and the default keyboard device is configureable and modular (thus allowing many types of device). This solves all your problems. Then all you have to do is set up several configurations and tell it which to run on the command line (or XDM config file). Everything but setting the VT grabbing optional and modularizing the keyboard input is already done. > I think a better way would be to use only one instance of XFree, have > it handle multiple monitors (that already works just fine!) WITHOUT > Xinerama, and add more event queues, each for one screen/user. And of > course, add support for multiple (USB) keyboards (at least two > solutions exist) and multiple mice with one cursor each. There is a one to one relationship between users and XServers for good reason. Without seperation of servers, events of one user could affect the other. How does a program know that :0.0 is it's user's and :0.1 is not? With seperate Servers, either with no VT code or with the new linuxconsole kernel patches, the two servers are completely seperate, thus greatly reducing the changes to X that are nescesary and eliminated the need for changes to the X protocol and client applications. > > 2) You could not go through the kernel and instead attempt to access the > > video card manually or through the frame buffer or something smart - and > > some has done this, and posted various patches.. although that still > > only allows a max of two heads. Or you could use the LinuxConsole kernel patches (linuxconsole.sourceforge.net) to set up multiple consoles. You may need to modify X to do it this way, I've only read the linuxconsole web pages; I haven't tried it. > I don't quite understand what you mean by this, but again - I don't > think this is the problem, multi-head support is already working. > (Maybe not for all cards, though.) Multi-head on one server is a completely different thing from having multiple users. > I don't think the X protocol has anything to do with it. Isn't the > multi-screen support much like two independent X servers already? How > closely coupled are screens :0.0 and :0.1? They run on the same server, and are therefore are owned by the same user, and are associated with the same socket (usu. 6000). It would Be WAY more work to get one server to support two sessions at the same time than to just run two seperate servers, decoupled from the VT system. > > 5) It is hard getting many monitors on a machine simply because the > > cables aren't that long! The longer you make the cable, the worse the > > image gets on the monitor. I think you can get round this by using LCD > > screens - but can't remember for sure. > > This may be a practical problem in some cases, and no problem at all > in other. Think classrooms, internet cafe's... Many monitors (and > computers, needlessly) stacked one right by the other, very close. Monitor cables are often four feet long. If you put the computer at desktop height instead of on the floor, Two users could be up to 8 feet apart. > > 6) A nicer way of doing all of this is simply to have lots of very cheap > > nasty machines with nothing but a mobo, CPU, ethernet card and monitor - > > then get one big server to control them all. See the linux terminal > > server project. One cheap nasty machine with nothing but a mobo, CPU, ethernet card and monitor, plus 3 video cards (plus one onboard) and monitors is bound to be cheaper. Plus imagine how much easier it would be for a VAR to sell Linux (or other free *NIX) if someone could come into their shop expecting to buy a new computer and walk out with a video card, monitor, keyboard, and mouse. > There's more to it than that, albiet in little ways. Who gets sound? Who > Gets floppy/cdrom? I'll admit that I don't hang out in internet cafes, so > those may not be available anyways normally. Plus, you mention VGA and > monitor which you'll need anyways. Sound? For office settings, sound cards are often disabled, removed, or declared off limits anyways, to avoid annoying co-workers. In an internet cafe you could install multiple sound cards just like the vide
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
On Thu, 2002-05-23 at 22:28, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > how hard would it be to add more keyboards and mice to XFree, each > > > > delivering events to a different screen, thus enabling a full local > > > > multiuser setup? Is there any reason why this couldn't be implemented? > > > > > Are there really no plans to provide such multi-user functionality in > XFree? It seems to me like a natural way to go and one that has been > much requested... I would gladly donate my time for this if someone > of the XFree developers provided some guidance and advice. I've > already spent some hours looking at the source and it's still a jungle > to me... (No offence intended, of course. It's probably just me.) > Are you aware of the linuxconsole project at linuxconsole.sourceforge.net, looks like this kind of thing is included in thier plans. Stuff is already getting merged into the 2.5 development kernels. > The way I see is providing multiple event queues, one for each user > (=screen, or even set of screens), and attach one keyboard and one > mouse to each queue. And make one mouse cursor for each queue. I'm > probably missing something important, but on first view, that seems > to be it. Any insight? > > Vaclav Dvorak [EMAIL PROTECTED] > IDAS, s.r.o.http://www.idas.cz > ___ > Xpert mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert > -- Andrew Clayton signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
On Thu, 23 May 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Nicer? I don't think so. What's cheaper, smaller, easier - a VGA and a > monitor, or a case, power supply, mainboard, CPU, memory, ethernet, > the electricity it eats, the noise it generates, the cables it needs, > a VGA and a monitor? Of course, both solutions have their merit... If > you need distance more than just a few meters, certainly the terminal > server is the better/only solution. There's more to it than that, albiet in little ways. Who gets sound? Who Gets floppy/cdrom? I'll admit that I don't hang out in internet cafes, so those may not be available anyways normally. Plus, you mention VGA and monitor which you'll need anyways. I'll not trying to compeletly tear down the idea. I don't think it's a terrible one, to be honest. Although if it were me, I'd save myself the hassle and either build a low-grade PC, or buy a network computer (about $700-$1000). -- Matt Piechota ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
> > > how hard would it be to add more keyboards and mice to XFree, each > > > delivering events to a different screen, thus enabling a full local > > > multiuser setup? Is there any reason why this couldn't be implemented? > > > > This question has come up every month or so as far back as I can remember. I > > even joined this mailing list to ask this very question... > > > Hmm, I probably missed something :) > > Yes, John missed one answer: > > 7) It has already been done: > http://cambuca.ldhs.cetuc.puc-rio.br/multiuser/ > (this page also suggests another possible solution). Ah, yes - I should have mentioned I know about this. It is a hack and it has problems: - It only works for some VGA's - nVidia with their closed drivers (not with XFree's drivers) and Matrox are the only ones that I am aware of. - Even with the nVidia's (don't know about Matrox), the computer hangs totally when switching modes (to console, to vmware's fullscreen... but not ctrl+alt+plus). - I wasn't able to make the USB keyboard work in XFree 4.2.0 (works in 4.1.0), but that may be some small issue... - And, as I said, it's an ugly hack. When it works, fine, but sometimes it does not and even causes crashes and hangs. I am sure the XFree developers wouldn't agree to integrate this in an official release. The patch does nothing to serialize accesses by the multiple servers to the VGA's... It _has_ to crash, sooner or later. :-) Are there really no plans to provide such multi-user functionality in XFree? It seems to me like a natural way to go and one that has been much requested... I would gladly donate my time for this if someone of the XFree developers provided some guidance and advice. I've already spent some hours looking at the source and it's still a jungle to me... (No offence intended, of course. It's probably just me.) The way I see is providing multiple event queues, one for each user (=screen, or even set of screens), and attach one keyboard and one mouse to each queue. And make one mouse cursor for each queue. I'm probably missing something important, but on first view, that seems to be it. Any insight? Vaclav Dvorak [EMAIL PROTECTED] IDAS, s.r.o.http://www.idas.cz ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
> > how hard would it be to add more keyboards and mice to XFree, each > > delivering events to a different screen, thus enabling a full local > > multiuser setup? Is there any reason why this couldn't be implemented? > > This question has come up every month or so as far back as I can remember. I > even joined this mailing list to ask this very question... Well, that might mean that there is interest in it and so someone should finally do it! :-) (Yeah, I know, talk is cheap. I won't be the one to do it, I'm afraid... XFree internals are a mystery to me.) > 1) You can't have to VT's being displayed at once. This means you can't run > and see two seperate X sessions on two monitors. This is a limitation of the > linux kernel - and as far back as I can remember ppl have said "someone is > working on it" but I wouldn't hold your breath... I don't think that's the real problem. If it were, it would suffice to simply remove any VT handling from XFree, which has been done - see the webpage mention in the other reply in this thread. But that hack has other problems, see my other message. I think a better way would be to use only one instance of XFree, have it handle multiple monitors (that already works just fine!) WITHOUT Xinerama, and add more event queues, each for one screen/user. And of course, add support for multiple (USB) keyboards (at least two solutions exist) and multiple mice with one cursor each. > 2) You could not go through the kernel and instead attempt to access the video > card manually or through the frame buffer or something smart - and some has > done this, and posted various patches.. although that still only allows a > max of two heads. I don't quite understand what you mean by this, but again - I don't think this is the problem, multi-head support is already working. (Maybe not for all cards, though.) > 3) You could use something like Xinerama (sp?) to have one desktop but over > multiple monitors. That's not what I want - I want multiple independent desktops. > 4) You can have more than one mouse, but currently you can't have more than > one cursor on a particular X server. Right - this would have to be changed. > I think this is because of a limitation > in the actual X protocol - if so, don't expect this to be fixed any time soon > either. I don't think the X protocol has anything to do with it. Isn't the multi-screen support much like two independent X servers already? How closely coupled are screens :0.0 and :0.1? The protocol is the interface between the client and the server, and in that respect, I don't propose any change: the client would still be seeing only one cursor, but depending on which screen it is attached to, it would be one of the existing cursors. > 5) It is hard getting many monitors on a machine simply because the cables > aren't that long! The longer you make the cable, the worse the image gets on > the monitor. I think you can get round this by using LCD screens - but can't > remember for sure. This may be a practical problem in some cases, and no problem at all in other. Think classrooms, internet cafe's... Many monitors (and computers, needlessly) stacked one right by the other, very close. > 6) A nicer way of doing all of this is simply to have lots of very cheap nasty > machines with nothing but a mobo, CPU, ethernet card and monitor - then get > one big server to control them all. See the linux terminal server project. Nicer? I don't think so. What's cheaper, smaller, easier - a VGA and a monitor, or a case, power supply, mainboard, CPU, memory, ethernet, the electricity it eats, the noise it generates, the cables it needs, a VGA and a monitor? Of course, both solutions have their merit... If you need distance more than just a few meters, certainly the terminal server is the better/only solution. Vaclav Dvorak [EMAIL PROTECTED] IDAS, s.r.o.http://www.idas.cz ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
On Thu, 23 May 2002, John Tapsell wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Wednesday 22 May 2002 9:36 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Hello Xperts, > > > > how hard would it be to add more keyboards and mice to XFree, each > > delivering events to a different screen, thus enabling a full local > > multiuser setup? Is there any reason why this couldn't be implemented? > > This question has come up every month or so as far back as I can remember. I > even joined this mailing list to ask this very question... > Hmm, I probably missed something :) Yes, John missed one answer: 7) It has already been done: http://cambuca.ldhs.cetuc.puc-rio.br/multiuser/ (this page also suggests another possible solution). -- Dr. Andrew C. Aitchison Computer Officer, DPMMS, Cambridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.dpmms.cam.ac.uk/~werdna ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
Re: [Xpert]adding more keyboards and mice
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday 22 May 2002 9:36 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Hello Xperts, > > how hard would it be to add more keyboards and mice to XFree, each > delivering events to a different screen, thus enabling a full local > multiuser setup? Is there any reason why this couldn't be implemented? This question has come up every month or so as far back as I can remember. I even joined this mailing list to ask this very question... There are tons of threads on it. To do a really quick, probably incorrect summary: 1) You can't have to VT's being displayed at once. This means you can't run and see two seperate X sessions on two monitors. This is a limitation of the linux kernel - and as far back as I can remember ppl have said "someone is working on it" but I wouldn't hold your breath... 2) You could not go through the kernel and instead attempt to access the video card manually or through the frame buffer or something smart - and some has done this, and posted various patches.. although that still only allows a max of two heads. 3) You could use something like Xinerama (sp?) to have one desktop but over multiple monitors. 4) You can have more than one mouse, but currently you can't have more than one cursor on a particular X server. I think this is because of a limitation in the actual X protocol - if so, don't expect this to be fixed any time soon either. 5) It is hard getting many monitors on a machine simply because the cables aren't that long! The longer you make the cable, the worse the image gets on the monitor. I think you can get round this by using LCD screens - but can't remember for sure. 6) A nicer way of doing all of this is simply to have lots of very cheap nasty machines with nothing but a mobo, CPU, ethernet card and monitor - then get one big server to control them all. See the linux terminal server project. Hmm, I probably missed something :) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE87QJFoRvfZQkd7qoRAiR0AKCCy+KisDaaI5gggqgsb2oxFMGl8gCeKdLv u3Yc3QJNAfJrmjhDmMu+1k8= =Sbmm -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Xpert mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/xpert
