RE: [xul-talk] What is XAML? What is XUL? What is XUI?
On Thu, 2004-05-06 at 09:59 -0400, Marc Clifton wrote: > For a language that is capable of just instantiating the UI components, > "XUL" seems best, IMO. But what I'm fuzzy about is the differences between > XUL and XUI. Also, whether the "X" means "xml" or "eXtensible" is > confusing, because that varies with the implementation, I would think. LOL! You won't like the Vexi acronym then: Visual, eXtensible, Xml Interfaces (You won't have heard of Vexi before though soon you'll hear a lot.) -- - Charlie Charles Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Online @ www.charlietech.com --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by Sleepycat Software Learn developer strategies Cisco, Motorola, Ericsson & Lucent use to deliver higher performing products faster, at low TCO. http://www.sleepycat.com/telcomwpreg.php?From=osdnemail3 ___ xul-talk mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xul-talk
RE: [xul-talk] Microsoft XAML "Spec Owner" Rob Relyea on Avalon XAML vs HTML+CSS
> XAML works for web UIs, of course. As far as I can rember Microsoft show off a Amazon XAML demo at the Longhorn developer conference last fall in Los Angeles. I'll have to investigate that. The next web browser is not Internet Explorer anymore but Windows Longhorn itself. OK, but that seems like it'll be years before webmasters are going to be motivated to publish a website targeted to just a single OS. >Looks like a good choice. Maybe your styling format needs a compact non-XML syntax alternative? Possibly, but I don't really think so. Ideally, the styles would be defined by a nice designer UI. > Again, the standalone browser is dead. In the new world the desktop OS is the browser. I think that's, what's the expression, burying the body while it's still twitching? Something like that. Ultimately, yes, I think you are right. But I think this is a long, long ways away. >Well, my worry is that because the next browser is the desktop OS you will also get DRM (digital right management) e.g. for every XAML "web" page you can state if anyone is allowed to print it and how much it will cost you, to cut-and-paste or look at your markup code, to save it, when it expires, and so on. DRM per se is not evil but when Microsoft controls the desktop they surely can and will abuse it to nickel and dime you to death, for example. Ah, ok. However, the customer will have an interesting choice, because unlike taxes, you'll be able to choose sites that don't utilize XAML. Really, I just don't get the feeling that HTML, DHTML, CSS, etc., is going to go away anytime soon, regardless of what Microsoft wishes. There are a lot of sites out there running on non-MS servers. What would motivate them to change to XAML? Especially if they want to offer their customers a non-DRM-taxation browsing experience? I honestly don't think MS could get away with that, but I may be wrong. Marc --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by Sleepycat Software Learn developer strategies Cisco, Motorola, Ericsson & Lucent use to deliver higher performing products faster, at low TCO. http://www.sleepycat.com/telcomwpreg.php?From=osdnemail3 ___ xul-talk mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xul-talk
RE: [xul-talk] What is XAML? What is XUL? What is XUI?
Hi Gerald, Thanks for the feedback! I personally feel that this is a difficult but important issue to get my arms around. As I mentioned in the xaml-talk post (great idea, BTW!), I think it's important to separate MS-XAML from what I would call "pure" XAML. You said: > XAML is an XML UI language. Thus, XAML is another XUL format. If anyone nows any better terms for XML UI languages, please let me know. Hmmm. OK. Then what is MyXaml? Because in reality, MyXaml is just a generic instantiator, that complies with Petzold's definition of XAML, roughly: any class supporting a parameterless constructor can be instantiated, and properties defined in that class can be initialized. So, MyXaml isn't just an XML UI language. In fact, from my blog posts, you can see that it can instantiate data tables and other classes. The fact that I demonstrate it for UI stuff is two reasons: it's visual, and therefore easily understandable, and it IS a good use of the technology. But it isn't JUST a UI language. I'd like to propose that XAML, whose acronym "eXtensible Application Markup Language" doesn't contain any reference to UI's, be defined something like this: "XAML is an XML-based syntax for generically instantiating classes and is applicable to both UI and non-UI application components." To answer the questions directly, from my perspective: > Is MyXaml Xaml? IMO, yes, because complies with Petzold's description of what XAML is. (to interject another question, is MS-XAML XAML? Answer: No.) > Is MyXaml a XUL format? IMO, yes, but the UI part of MyXaml is only a subset of the entire concept, and only because the .NET System.Windows.Forms classes are 90% compliant with the requirement for parameterless constructors. > Is MyXaml an XML UI language? Mmmm. I have real problems with the word "language". Does "language" imply a "programming language", or merely a method of "expression"? I'm assuming the latter. I would prefer the question to be worded "Is MyXaml a declarative XML UI language?". The answer, again IMO, is yes, in the sense that the UI is instantiable using MyXaml. It can also be a data modeling language, for example, as data tables, data sets, relationships, records, etc., are instantiable also. (is it instantiable or instantiatable???) > Is the "What is XAML?" debate a replay of the "What is XUL?" or "What is XUI?" debate? Most likely, yes. From the posts I've read here, it seems like some people have a clear understanding of what XUL is. On the other hand, it seems like other people are saying "XAML is just XUL!" I disagree with that statement, and so I thought I'd put my thoughts on the subject in my blog. > Why doesn't Microsoft claim that XAML is a trademark and instead why does Microsoft state XAML is just a code-name like Avalon or Indigo that will get ditched for a proper trademark later on such as WinML, for example? That would be nice, if they changed it to something like WinML, because then it clearly distinguishes the difference between what I feel is XAML and what I think of as MS-XAML. > What's your preferred term for XML UI languages? For a language that is capable of just instantiating the UI components, "XUL" seems best, IMO. But what I'm fuzzy about is the differences between XUL and XUI. Also, whether the "X" means "xml" or "eXtensible" is confusing, because that varies with the implementation, I would think. XUL is a subset of MyXaml's XAML implementation, therefore, I think to say that MyXaml is XUL is accurate but incomplete. Thoughts? I hope I'm not beating a dead horse about all this. I think it will help everyone if we can create a visual roadmap of these terms. I might try drawing something out and see what you think. And thanks for helping in my continuing education about all of this. Marc --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by Sleepycat Software Learn developer strategies Cisco, Motorola, Ericsson & Lucent use to deliver higher performing products faster, at low TCO. http://www.sleepycat.com/telcomwpreg.php?From=osdnemail3 ___ xul-talk mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xul-talk
[xul-talk] Scrolling multiline textboxes
I'm looking for a way to scroll multiline textboxes to the bottom of their content. I tried barking up the and tree, but each time I put a textbox inside a scrollbox, Mozilla crashes. It looks like from the docs that this is the right place to start, but before I figure out what's causing the crash, can someone confirm how you manually control a textbox's scrollbar? Thanks Ken --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by Sleepycat Software Learn developer strategies Cisco, Motorola, Ericsson & Lucent use to deliver higher performing products faster, at low TCO. http://www.sleepycat.com/telcomwpreg.php?From=osdnemail3 ___ xul-talk mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xul-talk
RE: [xul-talk] Amazon WishWatch: Data Styling in XAML
Hi Gerald, In response to your questions, I figure I'd voice my opinion. > Do you think Amazon will create an improved online store using XAML? Not in the short term. First, XAML has to be stable, widely accepted, and viewable on a wide number of platforms. It doesn't make business sense to support multiple implementations of a website. Keep in mind that MS-XAML doesn't work on anything other than Longhorn, so for the next 5-10 years, that'll represent a very small percent of their Windows' user market, IMO, and of course doesn't do anything for other OS's and browsers. > Isn't it in Amazon's interest to create a better online shopping experience? Of course. They have to respond to what their competitors are doing, and they have to respond to customer feedback. But they're deeply immersed in whatever technologies they use to run their store. XAMLizing their online store just doesn't make business sense to me. > Isn't it in Amazon's interest to "protect" its XAML website design and code using DRM (digital rights management)? I would think so. Marc --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by Sleepycat Software Learn developer strategies Cisco, Motorola, Ericsson & Lucent use to deliver higher performing products faster, at low TCO. http://www.sleepycat.com/telcomwpreg.php?From=osdnemail3 ___ xul-talk mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xul-talk
[xul-talk] xaml-talk Now Live @ Yahoo! Groups
Hello, for those of you who don't feel comfortable discussing XAML on xul-talk you may now join xaml-talk over at Yahoo! Groups. See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/xaml-talk for details. Note, I've started the new xaml-talk group because the moderator of the existing xaml Yahoo! Group - Ron DeSerranno - has changed the XAML charter from anything XAML to anything Microsoft (Avalon) XAML which includes of course Ron's own Mobiform XAML offering but excludes alternative XAML offerings such as MyXaml, for example and Ron deletes "off-topic" posts accordingly such as the recent Richmond Post interview with Marc Clifton (of MyXaml fame). Let me know what's your thought on the new xaml-talk mailinglist. - Gerald --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by Sleepycat Software Learn developer strategies Cisco, Motorola, Ericsson & Lucent use to deliver higher performing products faster, at low TCO. http://www.sleepycat.com/telcomwpreg.php?From=osdnemail3 ___ xul-talk mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xul-talk
[xul-talk] Amazon WishWatch: Data Styling in XAML
Hello, For some "real-world" example if XAML is a better HTML alternative allow me to highlight Joe Marini's Amazon Wish Watch example in Avalon XAML. Joe writes: In this article, I'm going to use a similar technique to display data from Amazon's public XML data feed using Avalon's Data Styling, in which styles can be automatically applied to records of data. The application reads a person's Amazon Wish List and displays the results in a scrollable list. Each of the items in the list represents a subset of the XML data returned from the Amazon service. More @ http://www.joemarini.com/tutorials/tutorialpages/amazonwishwatch.php What's your take on it? Do you think Amazon will create an improved online store using XAML? Isn't it in Amazon's interest to create a better online shopping experience? Isn't it in Amazon's interest to "protect" its XAML website design and code using DRM (digital rights management)? - Gerald --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by Sleepycat Software Learn developer strategies Cisco, Motorola, Ericsson & Lucent use to deliver higher performing products faster, at low TCO. http://www.sleepycat.com/telcomwpreg.php?From=osdnemail3 ___ xul-talk mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xul-talk
[xul-talk] Avalon XAML Counter Sample Now Online
Hello, Adam Kinney writes in that the Avalon XAML counter markup sample and screenshot is now live. See http://www.longhornblogs.com/akinney/archive/2004/05/06/3371.aspx for details. I will add it to the showcase @ http://xul.sourceforge.net/counter.html shortly. Note, if you want to see the code-behind or scripts for the markup samples, please check out the CVS repository that you can browse online @ http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/xul - Gerald --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by Sleepycat Software Learn developer strategies Cisco, Motorola, Ericsson & Lucent use to deliver higher performing products faster, at low TCO. http://www.sleepycat.com/telcomwpreg.php?From=osdnemail3 ___ xul-talk mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xul-talk
[xul-talk] What is XAML? What is XUL? What is XUI?
Hello, Marc Clifton (of MyXaml fame) has written up a blog story titled "Is XAML==XUL==MS-XAML? to weigh in on the debate "What is XAML?". More @ http://myxaml.com/marcclifton/archive/2004/05/05/246.aspx I've summed up my position in the slide titled "The XUL/XUI/XAML Naming Debate" for my upcoming talk titled "Beyond HTML: A Look at Markup Languages For Creating Rich 'Classic Desktop-Style' UIs". Here's the slide: * XUL - XML UI Language, eXtensible UI Language * XUI - XML UI, eXtensible UI * XAML - eXtensible Application Markup Language * XUL, XUI and XAML are generic terms like RAD, IDE, GUI, DOM, MVC or IDL and *not* trademarks like Amazon (TM), Google (TM), Flash (TM) and so on. * Mozilla XUL != Luxor XUL != Thinlet XUL != Microsoft XUL != Macromedia XUL I've also posted a short comment to Marc's blog titled "XAML is an XML UI Language (XUL) Format" that states: XAML is an XML UI language. Thus, XAML is another XUL format. If anyone knows any better terms for XML UI languages, please let me know. What's your take? Is MyXaml Xaml? Is MyXaml a XUL format? Is MyXaml an XML UI language? Is the "What is XAML?" debate a replay of the "What is XUL?" or "What is XUI?" debate? Why doesn't Microsoft claim that XAML is a trademark and instead why does Microsoft state XAML is just a code-name like Avalon or Indigo that will get ditched for a proper trademark later on such as WinML, for example? What's your prefered term for XML UI languages? - Gerald --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by Sleepycat Software Learn developer strategies Cisco, Motorola, Ericsson & Lucent use to deliver higher performing products faster, at low TCO. http://www.sleepycat.com/telcomwpreg.php?From=osdnemail3 ___ xul-talk mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xul-talk
RE: [xul-talk] Microsoft XAML "Spec Owner" Rob Relyea on Avalon XAML vs HTML+CSS
Hello, >> What's your take on it? Is Avalon XAML better >> than the plain old HTML+CSS alternative? > > Isn't that sort of mixing apples and oranges? > Avalon XAML isn't just for > web UI's. (Actually, does it even work for web > UI's? I haven't seen > anything to suggest that it does. Maybe I'm missing > something here). XAML is many formats in one package (e.g. XAML replaces HTML (web documents), Flash (vector web animations), PDF (printable documents), and so on). XAML works for web UIs, of course. As far as I can rember Microsoft show off a Amazon XAML demo at the Longhorn developer conference last fall in Los Angeles. The next web browser is not Internet Explorer anymore but Windows Longhorn itself. > Which I'm considering modifying to the following: > > >> > > > This is consistent with the "a tag maps to a class" > and doesn't confuse the > reader (yet again) as to the meaning of the element. Looks like a good choice. Maybe your styling format needs a compact non-XML syntax alternative? > But, back to the question. The comparison doesn't > seem appropriate to me, > until I see a browser parsing XAML, *without* > needing a 20MB .NET framework > behind it for the client side controls that runs > only on one OS. Again, the standalone browser is dead. In the new world the desktop OS is the browser. > So, what's the worry? Well, my worry is that because the next browser is the desktop OS you will also get DRM (digital right management) e.g. for every XAML "web" page you can state if anyone is allowed to print it and how much it will cost you, to cut-and-paste or look at your markup code, to save it, when it expires, and so on. DRM per se is not evil but when Microsoft controls the desktop they surely can and will abuse it to nickel and dime you to death, for example. - Gerald --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by Sleepycat Software Learn developer strategies Cisco, Motorola, Ericsson & Lucent use to deliver higher performing products faster, at low TCO. http://www.sleepycat.com/telcomwpreg.php?From=osdnemail3 ___ xul-talk mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xul-talkFlatStyle='System'/> >
