[Zen] koan

[Merle Lester]

 the koan..is it not the eureka moment?..merle
  
Edgar,

I agree with Joe here.

All the 'breakthrough' koans (the first ones that are specifically designed to 
induce kensho (first experience of Buddha Nature)require a demonstration rather 
than an explanation.  For example my first koan was Joshu's MU and my teacher's 
request was to "BRING me Mu" and "SHOW me Mu" - certainly not "explain what 
Joshu's answer 'Mu' means".

In later koans, although still requiring actions or demonstrations, there is 
some room for intellectual discussions with your teacher, although these 
discussions are usually focused on just what the koan is specifically designed 
to accomplish rather than a discussion on the meaning of the actual content.

This has been my experience with koan study anyway, and this was with two 
different zen masters - although admittedly the two zen masters were from the 
same 'school' and they themselves had a teacher:student relationship at one 
time.

...Bill! 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Joe"  wrote:
>
> Edgar,
> 
> If YOU take things literally, then that's what YOU do.
> 
> Anyone who passes the koan "What is the sound of One Hand?", makes a 
> demonstration.  It's easy, at that time.  After that work.  What are you all 
> hung up about?
> 
> Edgar, note, too: my practice has been not too much on koans; after a few, my 
> teacher saw the road ahead for me, and that was not koans.  Either, "no 
> need", or "no aptitude".
> 
> From my point of view, after a point, it was:
> 
> "No need for gumdrops along the way".
> 
> Yet, all Hail! for folks who go on this way longer that I did.
> 
> I took my Doctor's prescription and switched modalities.
> 
> Hail!
> 
> I'm lucky to have had such a teacher.  May you be lucky in this way, in some 
> life.
> 
> --Joe
> 
> > Edgar Owen  wrote:
> >
> > Joe,
> > 
> > The point of my reply to your post both of which you obsessively snipped is 
> > this
> > 
> > Your post went against even the view of koans you are supposed to believe 
> > in as an orthodox zennist.
> > 
> > You and Bill claim that koans have no solution but are to be discarded in a 
> > satori.
> > 
> > But instead your post claimed that you not only understood the sound of one 
> > hand but could produce it yourself.
> > 
> > Thus you don't even understand the naive view of koans Bill does...
> > 
> > You are not supposed to take the koan to heart as if it actually expressed 
> > something but to discard it...
> > 
> > Even Bill knows that...
>


 

[Zen] Koan about details?

[Chris Austin-Lane]

There is some story about an old teacher asking a student if he thinks he
got the teachings, and the student is all "oh yeah, totally, I just have a
few details I haven't got." And the master whacks him saying, "it is all
details!"

Does anyone have any more concrete reference tob this story?  I no longer
recall where I heard it butb I want to include a link to it in a blog
comment.

Thanks for your help in improving the hyper textuality of the web,

--Chris

[Zen] Re: Zen Koan Practice

[ED]

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
>
> ED,

> I have no alternate views on koan practice than those expressed in the
article below that are significant.

> The slight differences I hold are:



> > [Genjo] Koans should only be used after one's meditation has entered
some
Samadhi.


> [Bill!] There are koans called `breakthrough' koans that can
and are used to
INDUCE Samadhi. Examples of those are `Mu', `One Hand
Clapping', `Face
Before Your Mother Was Born'. The majority of koans however are used
AFTER
Samadhi to help fully integrate and enable the actualization of
experience
into everyday life.

[ED] Genjo's position appears to be similar to or the same as Dr James
Austin's, namely that Samadhi is a state of absortion/tranquility or
Jhana state attained prior to kensho-satori. According to Genjo, koans
are effective (or more effective) in making a breakthrough to
kensho-satori from the Samadhi state. See:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/message/21501




> > [Genjo] To understand a Koan with your rational mind is only the
beginning;
to understand the koan fully through and through, with every fiber of
your
being, is just a good start.


>  [Bill!] Understanding has absolutely nothing to do with responding to
a
koan.

[ED] Genjo is almost certainly using 'understanding' in the sense of
'responding appropriately' - unless his 45 years of practice is
illusory.



I hadn't ever heard of koans being grouped into the 5 groups that
Genjo
suggests. I liked those groupings, but as he himself said, "... any
number
of sub-divisions could be devised, and all are ultimately meaningless, a
koan is just a koan."

…Bill!

RE: [Zen] Re: Zen Koan Practice

[BillSmart]

ED,

I have no alternate views on koan practice than those expressed in the
article below that are significant.

The slight differences I hold are:

[Genjo] Koans should only be used after one's meditation has entered some
Samadhi.
[Bill!] There are koans called ‘breakthrough’ koans that can and are used to
INDUCE Samadhi.  Examples of those are ‘Mu’, ‘One Hand Clapping’, ‘Face
Before Your Mother Was Born’.  The majority of koans however are used AFTER
Samadhi to help fully integrate and enable the actualization of experience
into everyday life.

[Genjo]  To understand a Koan with your rational mind is only the beginning;
to understand the koan fully through and through, with every fiber of your
being, is just a good start.
[Bill!]  Understanding has absolutely nothing to do with responding to a
koan.

I hadn’t ever heard of koans being grouped into the 5 groups that Genjo
suggests.  I liked those groupings, but as he himself said, "... any number
of sub-divisions could be devised, and all are ultimately meaningless, a
koan is just a koan."

…Bill! 


From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of ED
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 10:53 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen Koan Practice

  

Bill,
Do you happen to hold any alternative views on Koan Practice that are not
consonant with Genjo Marinello Osho's article below?
Thanks, ED
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>
Zen Koan Practice 
By Genjo Marinello, Abbot  Dai Bai Zan Cho Bo Zen Ji    (Great Plum Mountain
- Listening to the Dharma Zen Temple )
Koan is a Japanese word that comes from the Chinese, kung-an, that means
"public dictate." It is a reference to examples that are meant to guide
life; or in the case of Zen, these dictates are meant to be catalysts for
awakening one's true/deep/pure nature. 
They often recount an encounter between master and disciple, where the
master's response or question is said to reveal the deep nature of things as
they are. Perhaps the earliest example of a koan comes from the fable of the
time the historical Buddha held up a flower before an assemblage of
followers and spoke not a word. 
It is said that all remained silent and puzzled except for his disciple
Venerable Kasho who is said to have smiled in recognition. What was
transmitted when the Buddha held up a flower? 
"Don't explain it, show me your understanding!", shouts the Zen master. To
do so you must at once become the Buddha, Kasho, and the flower! Koans are
an advanced tool, and have no inherent power in and of themselves, but can
be very enlightening when used properly. I have heard Genki Roshi (Zen
master & Abbot) refer to them as a can-opener for the Heart/Mind (kokoro).
They are like a door-knocker, they are of no use, unless used properly as a
tool to knock on the door of one's Heart/Mind. 
Koans should only be used after one's meditation has entered some Samadhi.
Samadhi is the condition of one's mind when most of the silt and ripples
(ideas, thoughts, feelings, judgments) have quieted and the mind has become
more or less clear, calm, clean, naturally reflective and free-flowing in
this moment. If your mind has not yet achieved at least a small measure of
Samadhi, don't bother with koans.
[Bill!] There are koans called ‘breakthrough’ koans that can promote
Samadhi.  Examples of those are ‘Mu’, ‘One Hand Clapping’, ‘Face Before Your
Mother Was Born’.  These can and often are used BEFORE the student has been
able to enter Samadhi for the specific purpose of INDUCING Samadhi. 
Koans deliberately stir up the waters of the mind, and if the mind is
already disturbed, koan practice will only make things worse. This is why
Genki Roshi only assigns koans during Sesshins (long concentrated periods of
meditation) where reaching Samadhi is more likely. If the mind is practiced
at a given level of Samadhi, then a koan can be used to stretch one's
Samadhi-mind to a bigger dimension. By resolving a koan, that is to say
encompassing the example/dictate/question with one's understanding, small
mind is slowly or suddenly stretched and awakened into Big Mind. 
Koans are NOT answered. Any descriptive response, yes/no response, or
this/that response will be rejected. Yet, no response is also no good! How
then can one respond at all? When the deep meaning of the koan is understood
directly, then a token of that understanding is easy to present. Usually no
words are necessary, some poetic or creative gesture will suffice. This is
why I say that koans are not answered, but resolved. 
To work on a koan is to let a koan work on you. Once a measure of Samadhi is
attained, the practitioner calls the example or question to mind. The only
volition appropriate in Koan work is calling the question gently but
repeatedly to consciousness. Do not waste any time trying to figure the koan
out. Let it stretch your mind t

[Zen] Re: Zen Koan Practice

[ED]

Bill,

Do you happen to hold any alternative views on Koan Practice that are
not consonant with Genjo Marinello Osho's article below?

Thanks, ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>


Zen Koan Practice

By Genjo Marinello, Abbot  Dai Bai Zan Cho Bo Zen Ji
<http://www.choboji.org/> (Great Plum Mountain - Listening to the
Dharma Zen Temple )

Koan is a Japanese word that comes from the Chinese, kung-an, that means
"public dictate." It is a reference to examples that are meant to guide
life; or in the case of Zen, these dictates are meant to be catalysts
for awakening one's true/deep/pure nature.

They often recount an encounter between master and disciple, where the
master's response or question is said to reveal the deep nature of
things as they are. Perhaps the earliest example of a koan comes from
the fable of the time the historical Buddha held up a flower before an
assemblage of followers and spoke not a word.

It is said that all remained silent and puzzled except for his disciple
Venerable Kasho who is said to have smiled in recognition. What was
transmitted when the Buddha held up a flower?

"Don't explain it, show me your understanding!", shouts the Zen master.
To do so you must at once become the Buddha, Kasho, and the flower!
Koans are an advanced tool, and have no inherent power in and of
themselves, but can be very enlightening when used properly. I have
heard Genki Roshi (Zen master & Abbot) refer to them as a can-opener for
the Heart/Mind (kokoro). They are like a door-knocker, they are of no
use, unless used properly as a tool to knock on the door of one's
Heart/Mind.

Koans should only be used after one's meditation has entered some
Samadhi. Samadhi is the condition of one's mind when most of the silt
and ripples (ideas, thoughts, feelings, judgments) have quieted and the
mind has become more or less clear, calm, clean, naturally reflective
and free-flowing in this moment. If your mind has not yet achieved at
least a small measure of Samadhi, don't bother with koans.

Koans deliberately stir up the waters of the mind, and if the mind is
already disturbed, koan practice will only make things worse. This is
why Genki Roshi only assigns koans during Sesshins (long concentrated
periods of meditation) where reaching Samadhi is more likely. If the
mind is practiced at a given level of Samadhi, then a koan can be used
to stretch one's Samadhi-mind to a bigger dimension. By resolving a
koan, that is to say encompassing the example/dictate/question with
one's understanding, small mind is slowly or suddenly stretched and
awakened into Big Mind.

Koans are NOT answered. Any descriptive response, yes/no response, or
this/that response will be rejected. Yet, no response is also no good!
How then can one respond at all? When the deep meaning of the koan is
understood directly, then a token of that understanding is easy to
present. Usually no words are necessary, some poetic or creative gesture
will suffice. This is why I say that koans are not answered, but
resolved.

To work on a koan is to let a koan work on you. Once a measure of
Samadhi is attained, the practitioner calls the example or question to
mind. The only volition appropriate in Koan work is calling the question
gently but repeatedly to consciousness. Do not waste any time trying to
figure the koan out. Let it stretch your mind through the questioning
alone, make no effort to solve it. Any analysis is a waste of time, and
at best will produce a "fox" or pseudo-Zen response.

Koans are a devilish instrument because they deliberately tempt us to
make an interpretation, explanation, imitation or analysis; and yet, it
is only when we exhaust or give up these lines of investigation that a
deeper level of inquiry becomes possible.

Often, only when we are able to admit in frustration that we don't know
anything, can true koan practice begin. Allow the koan to sit in your
belly, there it may begin to feel like you have swallowed a hot iron
ball that can not be digested or expelled. Eventually, sometimes after
years of practice, the koan will do its work, the mind will open in
gentle deep understanding, and any number of simple direct responses
will seem obvious.

Koans are questions or statements that are like a challenge to your
person, your most fundamental perception of self. Koans act like swords
to stab at your ego and draw forth your Buddha Nature (your fully
natural nature that is not dependent on your self-definition). The
practitioner's job is not to fight or struggle with these attacks, but
to neutralize them. This is done by making a genuine, authentic,
spontaneous, gut response.

Whenever a response to a koan arises within me prior to dokusan
(personal interview between Roshi and the student) I let it go, this is
the best guarantee that the response that arises in the dokusan line or
in front of the 

Re: [Zen] Zen Koan Practice

[Anthony Wu]

Very good presentation.
 
anthony

--- On Fri, 19/11/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: [Zen] Zen Koan Practice
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 12:02 AM


  




 
Zen Koan Practice 
By Genjo Marinello, Abbot  Dai Bai Zan Cho Bo Zen Ji    (Great Plum Mountain - 
Listening to the Dharma Zen Temple )
Koan is a Japanese word that comes from the Chinese, kung-an, that means 
"public dictate." It is a reference to examples that are meant to guide life; 
or in the case of Zen, these dictates are meant to be catalysts for awakening 
one's true/deep/pure nature. 
They often recount an encounter between master and disciple, where the master's 
response or question is said to reveal the deep nature of things as they are. 
Perhaps the earliest example of a koan comes from the fable of the time the 
historical Buddha held up a flower before an assemblage of followers and spoke 
not a word. 
It is said that all remained silent and puzzled except for his disciple 
Venerable Kasho who is said to have smiled in recognition. What was transmitted 
when the Buddha held up a flower? 
"Don't explain it, show me your understanding!", shouts the Zen master. To do 
so you must at once become the Buddha, Kasho, and the flower! Koans are an 
advanced tool, and have no inherent power in and of themselves, but can be very 
enlightening when used properly. I have heard Genki Roshi (Zen master & Abbot) 
refer to them as a can-opener for the Heart/Mind (kokoro). They are like a 
door-knocker, they are of no use, unless used properly as a tool to knock on 
the door of one's Heart/Mind. 
Koans should only be used after one's meditation has entered some Samadhi. 
Samadhi is the condition of one's mind when most of the silt and ripples 
(ideas, thoughts, feelings, judgments) have quieted and the mind has become 
more or less clear, calm, clean, naturally reflective and free-flowing in this 
moment. If your mind has not yet achieved at least a small measure of Samadhi, 
don't bother with koans. 
Koans deliberately stir up the waters of the mind, and if the mind is already 
disturbed, koan practice will only make things worse. This is why Genki Roshi 
only assigns koans during Sesshins (long concentrated periods of meditation) 
where reaching Samadhi is more likely. If the mind is practiced at a given 
level of Samadhi, then a koan can be used to stretch one's Samadhi-mind to a 
bigger dimension. By resolving a koan, that is to say encompassing the 
example/dictate/question with one's understanding, small mind is slowly or 
suddenly stretched and awakened into Big Mind. 
Koans are NOT answered. Any descriptive response, yes/no response, or this/that 
response will be rejected. Yet, no response is also no good! How then can one 
respond at all? When the deep meaning of the koan is understood directly, then 
a token of that understanding is easy to present. Usually no words are 
necessary, some poetic or creative gesture will suffice. This is why I say that 
koans are not answered, but resolved. 
To work on a koan is to let a koan work on you. Once a measure of Samadhi is 
attained, the practitioner calls the example or question to mind. The only 
volition appropriate in Koan work is calling the question gently but repeatedly 
to consciousness. Do not waste any time trying to figure the koan out. Let it 
stretch your mind through the questioning alone, make no effort to solve it. 
Any analysis is a waste of time, and at best will produce a "fox" or pseudo-Zen 
response. 
Koans are a devilish instrument because they deliberately tempt us to make an 
interpretation, explanation, imitation or analysis; and yet, it is only when we 
exhaust or give up these lines of investigation that a deeper level of inquiry 
becomes possible. 
Often, only when we are able to admit in frustration that we don't know 
anything, can true koan practice begin. Allow the koan to sit in your belly, 
there it may begin to feel like you have swallowed a hot iron ball that can not 
be digested or expelled. Eventually, sometimes after years of practice, the 
koan will do its work, the mind will open in gentle deep understanding, and any 
number of simple direct responses will seem obvious. 
Koans are questions or statements that are like a challenge to your person, 
your most fundamental perception of self. Koans act like swords to stab at your 
ego and draw forth your Buddha Nature (your fully natural nature that is not 
dependent on your self-definition). The practitioner's job is not to fight or 
struggle with these attacks, but to neutralize them. This is done by making a 
genuine, authentic, spontaneous, gut response. 
Whenever a response to a koan arises within me prior to dokusan (personal 
interview between Roshi and the student) I let it go, this is the best 
guarantee that the response that arises in the dokusan line or in front of the 
Ro

[Zen] Zen Koan Practice

[ED]

Zen Koan Practice

By Genjo Marinello, Abbot  Dai Bai Zan Cho Bo Zen Ji
<http://www.choboji.org/> (Great Plum Mountain - Listening to the
Dharma Zen Temple )

Koan is a Japanese word that comes from the Chinese, kung-an, that means
"public dictate." It is a reference to examples that are meant
to guide life; or in the case of Zen, these dictates are meant to be
catalysts for awakening one's true/deep/pure nature.

They often recount an encounter between master and disciple, where the
master's response or question is said to reveal the deep nature of
things as they are. Perhaps the earliest example of a koan comes from
the fable of the time the historical Buddha held up a flower before an
assemblage of followers and spoke not a word.

It is said that all remained silent and puzzled except for his disciple
Venerable Kasho who is said to have smiled in recognition. What was
transmitted when the Buddha held up a flower?

"Don't explain it, show me your understanding!", shouts the
Zen master. To do so you must at once become the Buddha, Kasho, and the
flower! Koans are an advanced tool, and have no inherent power in and of
themselves, but can be very enlightening when used properly. I have
heard Genki Roshi (Zen master & Abbot) refer to them as a can-opener for
the Heart/Mind (kokoro). They are like a door-knocker, they are of no
use, unless used properly as a tool to knock on the door of one's
Heart/Mind.

Koans should only be used after one's meditation has entered some
Samadhi. Samadhi is the condition of one's mind when most of the silt
and ripples (ideas, thoughts, feelings, judgments) have quieted and the
mind has become more or less clear, calm, clean, naturally reflective
and free-flowing in this moment. If your mind has not yet achieved at
least a small measure of Samadhi, don't bother with koans.

Koans deliberately stir up the waters of the mind, and if the mind is
already disturbed, koan practice will only make things worse. This is
why Genki Roshi only assigns koans during Sesshins (long concentrated
periods of meditation) where reaching Samadhi is more likely. If the
mind is practiced at a given level of Samadhi, then a koan can be used
to stretch one's Samadhi-mind to a bigger dimension. By resolving a
koan, that is to say encompassing the example/dictate/question with
one's understanding, small mind is slowly or suddenly stretched and
awakened into Big Mind.

Koans are NOT answered. Any descriptive response, yes/no response, or
this/that response will be rejected. Yet, no response is also no good!
How then can one respond at all? When the deep meaning of the koan is
understood directly, then a token of that understanding is easy to
present. Usually no words are necessary, some poetic or creative gesture
will suffice. This is why I say that koans are not answered, but
resolved.

To work on a koan is to let a koan work on you. Once a measure of
Samadhi is attained, the practitioner calls the example or question to
mind. The only volition appropriate in Koan work is calling the question
gently but repeatedly to consciousness. Do not waste any time trying to
figure the koan out. Let it stretch your mind through the questioning
alone, make no effort to solve it. Any analysis is a waste of time, and
at best will produce a "fox" or pseudo-Zen response.

Koans are a devilish instrument because they deliberately tempt us to
make an interpretation, explanation, imitation or analysis; and yet, it
is only when we exhaust or give up these lines of investigation that a
deeper level of inquiry becomes possible.

Often, only when we are able to admit in frustration that we don't
know anything, can true koan practice begin. Allow the koan to sit in
your belly, there it may begin to feel like you have swallowed a hot
iron ball that can not be digested or expelled. Eventually, sometimes
after years of practice, the koan will do its work, the mind will open
in gentle deep understanding, and any number of simple direct responses
will seem obvious.

Koans are questions or statements that are like a challenge to your
person, your most fundamental perception of self. Koans act like swords
to stab at your ego and draw forth your Buddha Nature (your fully
natural nature that is not dependent on your self-definition). The
practitioner's job is not to fight or struggle with these attacks,
but to neutralize them. This is done by making a genuine, authentic,
spontaneous, gut response.

Whenever a response to a koan arises within me prior to dokusan
(personal interview between Roshi and the student) I let it go, this is
the best guarantee that the response that arises in the dokusan line or
in front of the Roshi will be fresh. Now, it is often the case that the
response that I make at dokusan is nearly identical to my first
inclination; yet, by letting the first and subsequent responses go, the
Koan has the best chance to b