Re: [zfs-discuss] External SATA drive enclosures + ZFS?
On Feb 27, 2011, at 10:48 , taemun wrote: > > eSATA has no need for any interposer chips between a modern SATA chipset on > the motherboard and a SATA hard drive. You can buy cables with appropriate > ends for this. There is no reason why the data side of an eSATA drive should > be any more likely to fail than SATA. (within bounds, for cable lengths, etc) > At least you can be assured that the drive will receive a flush request at > appropriate times. Intel's platform design guide (at least for its mobile platforms) calls for a SATA repeater/redriver chip immediately before the eSATA connector (or docking connector). It is however "passive" in the sense that is redrives the signal without appearing to the system whatsoever (just a receiver and re-driver inside the IC). I'd think that an eSATA drive with a stable power supply + a cable length within spec would be reliable enough for basic home use. --khd ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] External SATA drive enclosures + ZFS?
On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 7:48 AM, taemun wrote: > eSATA has no need for any interposer chips between a modern SATA chipset on > the motherboard and a SATA hard drive. You can buy cables with appropriate eSATA has different electrical specifications, namely higher minimum transmit power and lower minimum receive power. An internal power might work with a SATA to eSATA cable or adapter, but it's not guaranteed to. -B -- Brandon High : bh...@freaks.com ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] External SATA drive enclosures + ZFS?
I can tell you specifically that the 3124 will not work in Sparc equipment. I specifically purchased a 3124 after seeing glowing reviews in the archives. I needed it for a low end project using a V120 or Netra T1. What I didn't pick up from reviewing the archives was all of the glowing reviews where from x86 users. I posted my dilemma to the list a couple of weeks ago and it was suggested that I probably wouldn't find an eSATA controller that would work in a Sparc system and that I would have better luck with a SAS controller in Sparc. So now I am looking for a PCI SAS controller. Jerry On 02/27/11 20:46, Brandon High wrote: STUFF DELETED HERE > > The SiI3124 (PCI / PCI-X) and SiI3132 (PCIe) based cards can be picked > up for about $20-$30. They're supported, and support PMPs in Solaris. > I don't know about support on Sparc though. > > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816132021 > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816132027 > ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] External SATA drive enclosures + ZFS?
On 28 February 2011 02:06, Edward Ned Harvey < opensolarisisdeadlongliveopensola...@nedharvey.com> wrote: > Take that a step further. Anything external is unreliable. I have used > USB, eSATA, and Firewire external devices. They all work. The only > question is for how long. eSATA has no need for any interposer chips between a modern SATA chipset on the motherboard and a SATA hard drive. You can buy cables with appropriate ends for this. There is no reason why the data side of an eSATA drive should be any more likely to fail than SATA. (within bounds, for cable lengths, etc) At least you can be assured that the drive will receive a flush request at appropriate times. I can't argue about the external power supplies, other than to say that many external cases these days use a single +12V rail, and have a +5V regulator on board. These are a lot better because they allow for easy replacement of the power supply. External units which use a combined +12V/+5V power supply are often rendered useless by a power supply failure. Cheers, ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] External SATA drive enclosures + ZFS?
On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 4:15 PM, Rich Teer wrote: > So the question is, what eSATA non-RAID HBA do people recommend? Bear > in mind that I'm looking for something with driver support "out of the > box" with either the latest Solaris 10, or Solaris 11 Express. The SiI3124 (PCI / PCI-X) and SiI3132 (PCIe) based cards can be picked up for about $20-$30. They're supported, and support PMPs in Solaris. I don't know about support on Sparc though. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816132021 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816132027 > Assuming the use of eSATA enclosures do do people recommend? I don't > need huge amounts of space; two drives should be enough and four will > be plenty and allow for expansion. Again, I'm looking for a JBOD coz > I want ZFS do all the work. Something similar to the Sans Digital enclosures would probably work. They use a PMP to make all the drives available via one eSATA, which may or may not work. It's supposed to, but there are hardware blacklists in the drivers that may cause you trouble. Another thought is to ditch the Sun boxes and use a HP ProLiant Microserver. It's about $320 and holds 4 drives, with an expansion slot for an additional controller. I think some people have reported success with these on the list. -B -- Brandon High : bh...@freaks.com ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] External SATA drive enclosures + ZFS?
On Fri, 25 Feb 2011, Brandon High wrote: > You might want to consider eSATA. Port multipliers are supported in > recent builds (128+ I think), and will give better performance than > USB. I'm not sure if PMP are supported on Sparc though., since it > requires support in both the controller and PMP. OK, the main thing I'm getting here is that USB isn't a particularly reliable connection, and that eSATA would be a better way to go. I only mentioned USB/FireWire because those ports are already on the HW and I wouldn't have to buy an extra HBA. But if the cost isn't too great, I'd be happy to look at eSATA-connected external drives too (and would proabbyl go that route if I can find appropriate HW). So the question is, what eSATA non-RAID HBA do people recommend? Bear in mind that I'm looking for something with driver support "out of the box" with either the latest Solaris 10, or Solaris 11 Express. The SB1000 has only PCI and PCI-X slots IIRC, but the Ultra 20 (or Ultra 20 M2; I have one of each) also has PCI Express. Assuming the use of eSATA enclosures do do people recommend? I don't need huge amounts of space; two drives should be enough and four will be plenty and allow for expansion. Again, I'm looking for a JBOD coz I want ZFS do all the work. > What about an inexpensive SAS card (eg: Supermicro AOC-USAS-L4i) and > external SAS enclosure (eg: Sans Digital TowerRAID TR4X). It would > cost about $350 for the setup. Oooh, that's worth looking at too. Thanks! -- Rich Teer, Publisher Vinylphile Magazine www.vinylphilemag.com ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] External SATA drive enclosures + ZFS?
On Sun, Feb 27 at 10:06, Edward Ned Harvey wrote: From: zfs-discuss-boun...@opensolaris.org [mailto:zfs-discuss- boun...@opensolaris.org] On Behalf Of Brandon High I would avoid USB, since it can be less reliable than other connection methods. That's the impression I get from older posts made by Sun Take that a step further. Anything external is unreliable. I have used USB, eSATA, and Firewire external devices. They all work. The only question is for how long. If it's external, you've got yet another controller on the motherboard (or PCIe) being used... Yet another data circuit being used inside the external enclosure Now in addition to your internal power supply, you've got an external power supply. With power & data wires that can be bumped or knocked off a shelf... The system is up 24/7, and external enclosures aren't well built for that type of usage. If it's all internal it's all enclosed and it's all securely attached and built to stay on 24/7. With fewer circuits involved to possibly fail. I think this will depend a lot on the enclosure itself, not all enclosures are cheap pieces of doo-doo. I think you should consider the possibility of upgrading the size of your internal disks before adding external disks. If space is generally available in the chassis, sure, but I don't see *that* much difference between 4 internal controller cards in a Thumper versus 4 controller cards talking to direct-attached SAS JBODs. If you do it right, while your chances of any single hardware failure occurring goes up with the # of components in the whole system, your probability of a failure taking you offline should be <= the unified solution. -- Eric D. Mudama edmud...@bounceswoosh.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] External SATA drive enclosures + ZFS?
> From: zfs-discuss-boun...@opensolaris.org [mailto:zfs-discuss- > boun...@opensolaris.org] On Behalf Of Brandon High > > I would avoid USB, since it can be less reliable than other connection > methods. That's the impression I get from older posts made by Sun Take that a step further. Anything external is unreliable. I have used USB, eSATA, and Firewire external devices. They all work. The only question is for how long. If it's external, you've got yet another controller on the motherboard (or PCIe) being used... Yet another data circuit being used inside the external enclosure Now in addition to your internal power supply, you've got an external power supply. With power & data wires that can be bumped or knocked off a shelf... The system is up 24/7, and external enclosures aren't well built for that type of usage. If it's all internal it's all enclosed and it's all securely attached and built to stay on 24/7. With fewer circuits involved to possibly fail. I think you should consider the possibility of upgrading the size of your internal disks before adding external disks. ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] External SATA drive enclosures + ZFS?
--- rich.t...@rite-group.com wrote: >Space is starting to get a bit tight here, so I'm looking at adding >a couple of TB to my home server. I'm considering external USB or >FireWire attached drive enclosures. Cost is a real issue, but I also >want the data to be managed by ZFS--so enclosures without a JBOD option >have been disgarded (i.e., I don't want to use any internal HW RAID >controllers). "tank" on my home file server is a raidz3 with all six drives hooked up via USB. Across 2 expansion card controllers. (Leaving the motherboard controller of mouse/keyboard, and hooking up a a fresh drive during capacity expansions.) >The intent would be put two 1TB or 2TB drives in the enclosure and use >ZFS to create a mirrored pool out of them. I'd mirror across enclosures. As a home setup, even if I label things, 3 more cables will appear before I want to plug or unplug. I want my single points of failure to be "the tower" and "the UPS" and "the guy in the mirror who can type zpool destroy" not any individual cable. >I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't work, but I also have exactly >zero experience with this kind of set up! I appears to work fine with my commodity parts setup. I can't speak to the reliability of eSATA or FireWire as they fall in the "impossible to find" category. >would I be correct in thinking that I could buy two of >the above enclosures and connect them to two different USB ports? Don't see why not, but if you still want the single cable to accidentally disconnect, you could hook the enclosures up through a hub, and then use one port on the system. >Presumably, if that is the case, I could set them up as a RAID 10 >pool controlled by ZFS? Sure, and since you left ZFS in charge, you can upgrade them to three-way mirrors in the future if you desire. >Assuming my proposed enclosure would work, and assuming the use of >reasonable quality 7200 RPM disks, how would you expect the performance >to compare with the differential UltraSCSI set up I'm currently using? >I think the DWIS is rated at either 20MB/sec or 40MB/sec, so on the >surface, the USB attached drives would seem to be MUCH faster... Performance is one thing I don't know. My solution works for me. Lurking here I haven't heard enough of people talking in consistent terms to know where the bottleneck is in my system, and if it is something to worry about. That changes the moment I start talking to the server from more than one system at a time. And all this is with snv_134 should that make any difference. ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] External SATA drive enclosures + ZFS?
I'm with the gang on this one as far as USB being the spawn of the devil for mass storage you want to depend on. I'd rather scoop my eyes out with a red hot spoon than depend on permanently attached USB storage... And - don't even start me on SPARC and USB storage... It's like watching pitch flow... (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_drop_experiment). I never spent too much time working out why - but I never seen to get better than about 10MB/s with SPARC+USB... When it comes to cheap... I use cheap external SATA/USB combo enclosures (single drive ones) as I like the flexibility of being able to use them in eSATA mode nice and fast (and reliable considering the $$) or in USB mode should I need to split a mirror off and read it on my laptop, which has no esata port... Also - using the single drive enclosures is by far the cheapest (at least here in Oz), and you get redundant power supplies, as they use their own mini brick AC/DC units. I'm currently very happy using 2TB disks in the external eSATA+USB thingies. I had been using ASTONE external eSATA/USB units - though it seems my local shop has stopped carrying them... I liked them as they had perforated side panels, which allow the disk to stay much cooler than some of my other enclosures... (And have a better 'vertical' stand if you want the disks to stand up, rather than lie on their side.) If your box has PCI-e slots, grab one or two $20 Silicon Image 3132 controllers with eSATA ports and you should be golden... You will then be able to run between 2 and 4 disks - easily pushing them to their maximum platter speed - which for most of the 2TB disks is near enough to 100M/s at the outer edges. You will also get considerably higher IOPS - particularly when they are sequential - using eSATA. Note: All of this is with the 'cheap' view... You can most certainly buy much better hardware... But bang for buck - I have been happy with the above. Cheers! Nathan. On 02/26/11 01:58 PM, Brandon High wrote: On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Rich Teer wrote: Space is starting to get a bit tight here, so I'm looking at adding a couple of TB to my home server. I'm considering external USB or FireWire attached drive enclosures. Cost is a real issue, but I also I would avoid USB, since it can be less reliable than other connection methods. That's the impression I get from older posts made by Sun devs, at least. I'm not sure how well Firewire 400 is supported, let alone Firewire 800. You might want to consider eSATA. Port multipliers are supported in recent builds (128+ I think), and will give better performance than USB. I'm not sure if PMP are supported on Sparc though., since it requires support in both the controller and PMP. Consider enclosures from other manufacturers as well. I've heard good things about Sans Digital, but I've never used them. The 2-drive enclosure has the same components as the item you linked but 1/2 the cost via Newegg. The intent would be put two 1TB or 2TB drives in the enclosure and use ZFS to create a mirrored pool out of them. Assuming this enclosure is set to JBOD mode, would I be able to use this with ZFS? The enclosure Yes, but I think the enclosure has a SiI5744 inside it, so you'll still have one connection from the computer to the enclosure. If that goes, you'll lose both drives. If you're just using two drives, two separate enclosures on separate buses may be better. Look at http://www.sansdigital.com/towerstor/ts1ut.html for instance. There are also larger enclosures with up to 8 drives. I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't work, but I also have exactly zero experience with this kind of set up! Like I mentioned, USB is prone to some flakiness. Assuming this would work, given that I can't see to find a 4-drive version of it, would I be correct in thinking that I could buy two of You might be better off using separate enclosures for reliability. Make sure to split the mirrors across the two devices. Use separate USB controllers if possible, so a bus reset doesn't affect both sides. Assuming my proposed enclosure would work, and assuming the use of reasonable quality 7200 RPM disks, how would you expect the performance to compare with the differential UltraSCSI set up I'm currently using? I think the DWIS is rated at either 20MB/sec or 40MB/sec, so on the surface, the USB attached drives would seem to be MUCH faster... USB 2.0 is about 30-40MB/s under ideal conditions, but doesn't support any of the command queuing that SCSI does. I'd expect performance to be slightly lower, and to use slightly more CPU. Most USB controllers don't support DMA, so all I/O requires CPU time. What about an inexpensive SAS card (eg: Supermicro AOC-USAS-L4i) and external SAS enclosure (eg: Sans Digital TowerRAID TR4X). It would cost about $350 for the setup. -B ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.
Re: [zfs-discuss] External SATA drive enclosures + ZFS?
On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Rich Teer wrote: > Space is starting to get a bit tight here, so I'm looking at adding > a couple of TB to my home server. I'm considering external USB or > FireWire attached drive enclosures. Cost is a real issue, but I also I would avoid USB, since it can be less reliable than other connection methods. That's the impression I get from older posts made by Sun devs, at least. I'm not sure how well Firewire 400 is supported, let alone Firewire 800. You might want to consider eSATA. Port multipliers are supported in recent builds (128+ I think), and will give better performance than USB. I'm not sure if PMP are supported on Sparc though., since it requires support in both the controller and PMP. Consider enclosures from other manufacturers as well. I've heard good things about Sans Digital, but I've never used them. The 2-drive enclosure has the same components as the item you linked but 1/2 the cost via Newegg. > The intent would be put two 1TB or 2TB drives in the enclosure and use > ZFS to create a mirrored pool out of them. Assuming this enclosure is > set to JBOD mode, would I be able to use this with ZFS? The enclosure Yes, but I think the enclosure has a SiI5744 inside it, so you'll still have one connection from the computer to the enclosure. If that goes, you'll lose both drives. If you're just using two drives, two separate enclosures on separate buses may be better. Look at http://www.sansdigital.com/towerstor/ts1ut.html for instance. There are also larger enclosures with up to 8 drives. > I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't work, but I also have exactly > zero experience with this kind of set up! Like I mentioned, USB is prone to some flakiness. > Assuming this would work, given that I can't see to find a 4-drive > version of it, would I be correct in thinking that I could buy two of You might be better off using separate enclosures for reliability. Make sure to split the mirrors across the two devices. Use separate USB controllers if possible, so a bus reset doesn't affect both sides. > Assuming my proposed enclosure would work, and assuming the use of > reasonable quality 7200 RPM disks, how would you expect the performance > to compare with the differential UltraSCSI set up I'm currently using? > I think the DWIS is rated at either 20MB/sec or 40MB/sec, so on the > surface, the USB attached drives would seem to be MUCH faster... USB 2.0 is about 30-40MB/s under ideal conditions, but doesn't support any of the command queuing that SCSI does. I'd expect performance to be slightly lower, and to use slightly more CPU. Most USB controllers don't support DMA, so all I/O requires CPU time. What about an inexpensive SAS card (eg: Supermicro AOC-USAS-L4i) and external SAS enclosure (eg: Sans Digital TowerRAID TR4X). It would cost about $350 for the setup. -B -- Brandon High : bh...@freaks.com ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] External SATA drive enclosures + ZFS?
On 2/25/2011 7:34 PM, Rich Teer wrote: > > One product that seems to fit the bill is the StarTech.com S352U2RER, > an external dual SATA disk enclosure with USB and eSATA connectivity > (I'd be using the USB port). Here's a link to the specific product > I'm considering: > > http://ca.startech.com/product/S352U2RER-35in-eSATA-USB-Dual-SATA-Hot-Swap-External-RAID-Hard-Drive-Enclosure I have had mixed results with their 4 bay version. When they work, they are great, but we have had a number of DOA/almost DOA units. I have had good luck with products from http://www.addonics.com/ (They ship to Canada as well without issue) Why use USB ? You wll get much better performance/throughput on eSata (if you have good drivers of course). I use their sil3124 eSata controller on FreeBSD as well as a number of PM units and they work great. ---Mike -- --- Mike Tancsa, tel +1 519 651 3400 Sentex Communications, m...@sentex.net Providing Internet services since 1994 www.sentex.net Cambridge, Ontario Canada http://www.tancsa.com/ ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
[zfs-discuss] External SATA drive enclosures + ZFS?
Hi all, Space is starting to get a bit tight here, so I'm looking at adding a couple of TB to my home server. I'm considering external USB or FireWire attached drive enclosures. Cost is a real issue, but I also want the data to be managed by ZFS--so enclosures without a JBOD option have been disgarded (i.e., I don't want to use any internal HW RAID controllers). One product that seems to fit the bill is the StarTech.com S352U2RER, an external dual SATA disk enclosure with USB and eSATA connectivity (I'd be using the USB port). Here's a link to the specific product I'm considering: http://ca.startech.com/product/S352U2RER-35in-eSATA-USB-Dual-SATA-Hot-Swap-External-RAID-Hard-Drive-Enclosure The intent would be put two 1TB or 2TB drives in the enclosure and use ZFS to create a mirrored pool out of them. Assuming this enclosure is set to JBOD mode, would I be able to use this with ZFS? The enclosure would be connected to either my Sun Blade 1000 or an Ultra 20. The SB 1000 is currently running SXCE b130; the Ultra 20 would either run SXCE b130 or the latest version of Solaris 11 Express (or whatever its called!). I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't work, but I also have exactly zero experience with this kind of set up! Assuming this would work, given that I can't see to find a 4-drive version of it, would I be correct in thinking that I could buy two of the above enclosures and connect them to two different USB ports? Presumably, if that is the case, I could set them up as a RAID 10 pool controlled by ZFS? This would be replacing a D1000 array, which is mostly empty (I think I'm only using one pair of 10K RPM 143 GB disks at the moment!). I could add extra disks to the D1000 but appropriate disks seem to be rare/expensive especially when $/GB is factored in to the equation. Assuming my proposed enclosure would work, and assuming the use of reasonable quality 7200 RPM disks, how would you expect the performance to compare with the differential UltraSCSI set up I'm currently using? I think the DWIS is rated at either 20MB/sec or 40MB/sec, so on the surface, the USB attached drives would seem to be MUCH faster... Many thanks for any pointers received, -- Rich Teer, Publisher Vinylphile Magazine www.vinylphilemag.com ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
