Re: [zfs-discuss] Re: Re: update on zfs boot support
Brian Hechinger wrote: On Sun, Mar 11, 2007 at 11:21:13AM -0700, Frank Cusack wrote: On March 11, 2007 6:05:13 PM + Tim Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * ability to add disks to mirror the root filesystem at any time, should they become available Can't this be done with UFS+SVM as well? A reboot would be required but you have to do regular reboots anyway just for patching. It can, but you have to plan ahead. You need to leave a spall partition for the SVM metadata. Something I *never* remember to do (I'm too used to working with Veritas). If you can remember to plan ahead, then yes. ;) -brian not necessarily, metainit -a -f will force all onto one disk, but should only be used in emergency cases really, where you are already in the situation of not having a partition to put the meta DB on. Enda ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Re: Re: update on zfs boot support
Malachi de AElfweald wrote: 1) How do I at least mirror the root partition during install (instead of the convoluted after-the-fact instructions all over the net) Use Jumpstart. A profile to install your machine with mirroring should be pretty short, simple, and easy to create. It will be done at install time, and you won't have to do a thing manually. -Kyle ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Re: Re: update on zfs boot support
On 12-Mar-07, at 11:28 AM, Malachi de AElfweald wrote: ZFS supports swap to /dev/vzol, however, I do not have data related to performance. Also note that ZFS does not support dump yet, see RFE 5008936. I am getting ready to install a new server from scratch. While I had been hoping to do a full-radiz2 system, from what I am understanding here, my best bet is to still do a UFS drive for the root/boot partition, since ZFS does not support dump. Is this correct? If so, I have two questions: 1) How do I at least mirror the root partition during install (instead of the convoluted after-the-fact instructions all over the net) Actually the after-the-fact instructions are simple to follow, I've done it several times, including painlessly switching remote servers to SVM. A good recipe is: http://sunsolve.sun.com/search/document.do? assetkey=1-9-83605-1 (for Sun Fire x86) --Toby 2) Will it be possible at some point to switch to full-raidz2 without reinstalling the OS? Thanks, Malachi This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Re: Re: update on zfs boot support
I am getting ready to install a new server from scratch. While I had been hoping to do a full-radiz2 system, from what I am understanding here, my best bet is to still do a UFS drive for the root/boot partition, since ZFS does not support dump. Is this correct? There is no official support for ZFS root yet. So in most situations you'll want root on UFS, yes. If so, I have two questions: 1) How do I at least mirror the root partition during install (instead of the convoluted after-the-fact instructions all over the net) There is no way to do that during an interactive install. You can specify it in a jumpstart profile, but that seems to be quite a bit fiddlier than mirroring after installation. 2) Will it be possible at some point to switch to full-raidz2 without reinstalling the OS? You mean for the root filesystem? I don't think that's known yet. The announcements about the support of root on ZFS have mentioned that they are not targeting raidz or raidz2 as an initial option. I certainly wouldn't plan any current system with that in mind. -- Darren Dunham [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Technical Consultant TAOShttp://www.taos.com/ Got some Dr Pepper? San Francisco, CA bay area This line left intentionally blank to confuse you. ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Re: Re: update on zfs boot support
I took a look at some Jumpstart instructions... As a n00b to Solaris Administration, I think I am likely to screw that up at the moment. I know that with my FreeBSD system, I specified the RAID at the hardware level then fdisk detected the volume as something I could install to... Last time I tried that with Solaris, it didn't detect any drives. Malachi On 3/12/07, Kyle McDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Malachi de AElfweald wrote: 1) How do I at least mirror the root partition during install (instead of the convoluted after-the-fact instructions all over the net) Use Jumpstart. A profile to install your machine with mirroring should be pretty short, simple, and easy to create. It will be done at install time, and you won't have to do a thing manually. -Kyle ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Re: Re: update on zfs boot support
I know that with my FreeBSD system, I specified the RAID at the hardware level then fdisk detected the volume as something I could install to... Last time I tried that with Solaris, it didn't detect any drives. HW raid depends on the specific hardware and the existence of Solaris drivers to talk to it. If you have them, then that's a valid path as well. -- Darren Dunham [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Technical Consultant TAOShttp://www.taos.com/ Got some Dr Pepper? San Francisco, CA bay area This line left intentionally blank to confuse you. ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Re: Re: update on zfs boot support
On 12/03/07, Darren Dunham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Mar 11, 2007 at 11:21:13AM -0700, Frank Cusack wrote: On March 11, 2007 6:05:13 PM + Tim Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * ability to add disks to mirror the root filesystem at any time, should they become available Can't this be done with UFS+SVM as well? A reboot would be required but you have to do regular reboots anyway just for patching. *if* you already have the root filesystem under SVM in the first place, then no reboot should be required to add a mirror. And I assume that's all we're talking about for the ZFS mirroring as well. Is there any reason you'd have SVM on just the one partition? I can see why you'd do that with ZFS (snapshot, compression, etc). -- Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns http://number9.hellooperator.net/ ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Re: Re: update on zfs boot support
*if* you already have the root filesystem under SVM in the first place, then no reboot should be required to add a mirror. And I assume that's all we're talking about for the ZFS mirroring as well. Is there any reason you'd have SVM on just the one partition? I can see why you'd do that with ZFS (snapshot, compression, etc). Exactly the reason discussed. It allows later mirroring without requiring an unmount. For filesystems other than root and /usr, you could also expand as long as free space is available. Most sites tend to put all or none of the OS filesystems under SVM. I doubt that the practice is very common, but I've been to at least one place that did setup of SDS/SVM on all root disks, even if there was only one disk in the machine. My point was only that the usual issue with mirroring root is that it cannot be umounted, so the existing mount device is fixed until reboot. That issue is similar for all SVM, VxVM, and ZFS. As long as the mount device is already a VM object, adding the mirror should be trivial. -- Darren Dunham [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Technical Consultant TAOShttp://www.taos.com/ Got some Dr Pepper? San Francisco, CA bay area This line left intentionally blank to confuse you. ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Re: Re: update on zfs boot support
Hello Ivan, Sunday, March 11, 2007, 12:01:28 PM, you wrote: IW Got it, thanks, and a more general question, in a single disk IW root pool scenario, what advantage zfs will provide over ufs w/ IW logging? And when zfs boot integrated in neveda, will live upgrade work with zfs root? Snapshots/clones + live upgrade or standard patching. Additionally no more hassle with separate /opt /var ... Potentially also compression turned on on /var -- Best regards, Robertmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://milek.blogspot.com ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Re: Re: update on zfs boot support
On 3/11/07, Robert Milkowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IW Got it, thanks, and a more general question, in a single disk IW root pool scenario, what advantage zfs will provide over ufs w/ IW logging? And when zfs boot integrated in neveda, will live upgrade work with zfs root? Snapshots/clones + live upgrade or standard patching. Additionally no more hassle with separate /opt /var ... I am curious how snapshots and clones will be integrated with grub. Will it be posible to boot from a snapshot? I think this would be useful when applying patches, since you could snapshot / ,/var and /opt, patch the system, and revert back (by choosing a snapshot from the grub menu) to the snapshot if something went awry. Is this how the zfs boot team envisions this working? Thanks, - Ryan -- UNIX Administrator http://prefetch.net ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Re: Re: update on zfs boot support
Robert Milkowski wrote: Hello Ivan, Sunday, March 11, 2007, 12:01:28 PM, you wrote: IW Got it, thanks, and a more general question, in a single disk IW root pool scenario, what advantage zfs will provide over ufs w/ IW logging? And when zfs boot integrated in neveda, will live upgrade work with zfs root? Snapshots/clones + live upgrade or standard patching. Additionally no more hassle with separate /opt /var ... Potentially also compression turned on on /var - just to add to Robert's list, here's other advantages ZFS on root has over UFS, even on a single disk: * knowing when your data starts getting corrupted (if your disk starts failing, and what data is being lost) * ditto blocks to take care of filesystem metadata consistency * performance improvements over UFS * ability to add disks to mirror the root filesystem at any time, should they become available * ability to use free space on the root pool, making it available for other uses (by setting a reservation on the root filesystem, you can ensure that / always has sufficient available space) - am I missing any others ? cheers, tim -- Tim Foster, Sun Microsystems Inc, Solaris Engineering Ops http://blogs.sun.com/timf ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Re: Re: update on zfs boot support
On March 11, 2007 6:05:13 PM + Tim Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * ability to add disks to mirror the root filesystem at any time, should they become available Can't this be done with UFS+SVM as well? A reboot would be required but you have to do regular reboots anyway just for patching. -frank ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Re: Re: update on zfs boot support
On Sun, Mar 11, 2007 at 11:21:13AM -0700, Frank Cusack wrote: On March 11, 2007 6:05:13 PM + Tim Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * ability to add disks to mirror the root filesystem at any time, should they become available Can't this be done with UFS+SVM as well? A reboot would be required but you have to do regular reboots anyway just for patching. It can, but you have to plan ahead. You need to leave a spall partition for the SVM metadata. Something I *never* remember to do (I'm too used to working with Veritas). If you can remember to plan ahead, then yes. ;) -brian -- The reason I don't use Gnome: every single other window manager I know of is very powerfully extensible, where you can switch actions to different mouse buttons. Guess which one is not, because it might confuse the poor users? Here's a hint: it's not the small and fast one.--Linus ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Re: Re: update on zfs boot support
Robert Milkowski wrote: Hello Ivan, Sunday, March 11, 2007, 12:01:28 PM, you wrote: IW Got it, thanks, and a more general question, in a single disk IW root pool scenario, what advantage zfs will provide over ufs w/ IW logging? And when zfs boot integrated in neveda, will live upgrade work with zfs root? Snapshots/clones + live upgrade or standard patching. Additionally no more hassle with separate /opt /var ... Potentially also compression turned on on /var - just to add to Robert's list, here's other advantages ZFS on root has over UFS, even on a single disk: * knowing when your data starts getting corrupted (if your disk starts failing, and what data is being lost) * ditto blocks to take care of filesystem metadata consistency * performance improvements over UFS * ability to add disks to mirror the root filesystem at any time, should they become available * ability to use free space on the root pool, making it available for other uses (by setting a reservation on the root filesystem, you can ensure that / always has sufficient available space) - am I missing any others ? * ability to show off to your geeky friends who will all say neato! Dennis ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Re: Re: update on zfs boot support
Matty wrote: I am curious how snapshots and clones will be integrated with grub. Will it be posible to boot from a snapshot? I think this would be useful when applying patches, since you could snapshot / ,/var and /opt, patch the system, and revert back (by choosing a snapshot from the grub menu) to the snapshot if something went awry. Is this how the zfs boot team envisions this working? You can snapshot/clone, and revert back by choosing the clone from the grub menu to boot. Since snapshot is a read-only filesystem, directly booting from it is not supported for the initial release. However, it is on our to-investigate list. Lin ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Re: Re: update on zfs boot support
On 3/11/07, Lin Ling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matty wrote: I am curious how snapshots and clones will be integrated with grub. Will it be posible to boot from a snapshot? I think this would be useful when applying patches, since you could snapshot / ,/var and /opt, patch the system, and revert back (by choosing a snapshot from the grub menu) to the snapshot if something went awry. Is this how the zfs boot team envisions this working? You can snapshot/clone, and revert back by choosing the clone from the grub menu to boot. Since snapshot is a read-only filesystem, directly booting from it is not supported for the initial release. However, it is on our to-investigate list. How will /boot/grub/menu.lst be updated? Will the admin have to run bootadm after the root clone is created, or will the zfs utility be enhanced to populate / remove entries from the menu.lst? Thanks, - Ryan -- UNIX Administrator http://prefetch.net ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Re: Re: update on zfs boot support
Matty wrote: How will /boot/grub/menu.lst be updated? Will the admin have to run bootadm after the root clone is created, or will the zfs utility be enhanced to populate / remove entries from the menu.lst? The detail of how menu.lst will be updated is still being worked out. We don't plan on using zfs utility to handle it though. Lin ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
RE: [zfs-discuss] Re: Re: update on zfs boot support
While the snapshot isn't RW, the clone is and would certainly be helpful in this case Isn't the whole idea to: 0) boot into single-user/boot-archive if you're paranoid (or just quiess and clone if you feel lucky) 1) clone the primary OS instance+relevant-slices boot into the primary OS 2) apply alternate root patches to the cloned file systems (leaving the original OS COMPLETELY UNTOUCHED) (run a DTRACE watch-dog to make sure bugs in patch pre/post-install don't act against the primary OS instead of the alternate root (this would NEVER happen would it)) 3) add entries for the cloned file system in GRUB, making them a valid boot option (possibly clean up a few /etc/vfstab path issues in the cloned FS while we're at it) Boot the clone, or backout to the original ( by booting that menu option) if not 100% happy... If you're happy on the clone say after a week, zfs promote the clone to become the primary. ((grub gets cleaned up accordingly so its not confused) and your backout option is GONE/recycled) (Wait, we haven't used live-upgrade yet... What to do?) Thoughts on this scenario working for the zfs-boot initial release? Thanks, -- MikeE -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lin Ling Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 3:49 PM To: Matty Cc: zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org Subject: Re: [zfs-discuss] Re: Re: update on zfs boot support Matty wrote: I am curious how snapshots and clones will be integrated with grub. Will it be posible to boot from a snapshot? I think this would be useful when applying patches, since you could snapshot / ,/var and /opt, patch the system, and revert back (by choosing a snapshot from the grub menu) to the snapshot if something went awry. Is this how the zfs boot team envisions this working? You can snapshot/clone, and revert back by choosing the clone from the grub menu to boot. Since snapshot is a read-only filesystem, directly booting from it is not supported for the initial release. However, it is on our to-investigate list. Lin ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Re: Re: update on zfs boot support
On Sun, Mar 11, 2007 at 11:21:13AM -0700, Frank Cusack wrote: On March 11, 2007 6:05:13 PM + Tim Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * ability to add disks to mirror the root filesystem at any time, should they become available Can't this be done with UFS+SVM as well? A reboot would be required but you have to do regular reboots anyway just for patching. *if* you already have the root filesystem under SVM in the first place, then no reboot should be required to add a mirror. And I assume that's all we're talking about for the ZFS mirroring as well. It can, but you have to plan ahead. You need to leave a spall partition for the SVM metadata. Something I *never* remember to do (I'm too used to working with Veritas). SVM metadata on the initial root disk would be required for the initial installation, not for the mirroring. And it could be taken from swap just as VxVM does. -- Darren Dunham [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Technical Consultant TAOShttp://www.taos.com/ Got some Dr Pepper? San Francisco, CA bay area This line left intentionally blank to confuse you. ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
