[ZION] The Tom Murphy Affair (FAIR Journal, December 2002)
I don't know how many of you subscribe to FAIR's free internet monthly newsletter, or even care about the issues it addresses, but here's their December 2002 newsletter. There's a link in there to an excellent article that addresses the Tom Murphy affair. Mr. Murphy has been portrayed as an intellectual whose membership is in danger because of what he has written as a scholar. The facts are quite different; an obscure academic (he teaches at a community college in a department with only one full-time member -- himself) his work was actually commissioned by an anti-Mormon group for publication in one of their periodicals, he was paid for this, and he also misrepresents LDS doctrine. The press has portrayed him as a "devout Mormon" when in fact he disengaged from Church activity in 1993 -- by his own admission. FAIR is the Foundation for Apologetics Information and Research, an unofficial group that publishes material to counter anti-Mormon claims. It has no connection to the Church and this should be kept in mind. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Paul Osborne wrote: > Yep, I agree with John. The laws of the universe were not invented but > have always been. There never was a first Father... That makes about as much sense as our being here does. Phrases like "never was" and even perhaps "first" do not apply in the eternity, where one can see the end from the beginning. I don't think (should I stop here? :-) that we have the intellectual experience, or perhaps even the capacity, in this estate to even being to comprehend the succession of events that led to OUR Heavenly Father going through his own progression. On there other hand, there is some sort of event progression, one event prior to another, since (apparently) our Heavenly Father existed "prior" (whatever that means in the eternities) to us. This of course begs the question of where all this stuff we call home came from. Unfortunately, if I think too long about it, I start to disappear. So I'll stop now. My wife and kids (hopefully) would miss me. Jo (Oh no! I have started to disappear again!) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Warning: this post is full of tangents,irrelevancies and sidetracking.
To start, here's a letter in today's Glock 'n' Spiel (Globe and Mail). Try to ignore the writer's barbed reference to "Americans." It's not only part of the cultural wallpaper here, but he's exaggerating to make a point, and I think the point's worth the exaggeration. Not so bad after all By RICHARD GRIFFITH Thursday, December 19, 2002 Page A22 Ravenna, Ont. -- The controversy generated by David Ahenakew reminded me that our Jewish citizens are often among our most loving and generous. In both Canada and the United States, many charitable foundations owe their existence to Jewish founders and benefactors. Moreover, how many of our museums, galleries, arts councils and theatres could survive as well as they do without their legions of Jewish patrons? So, what would happen if the Jews took over the world? We know what happens when the world is run by, let's see, the Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Ottoman Turks, Spaniards, French, British, Germans, Russians and, Jehovah save us all, the Americans. If it's ever the Jews' turn, we'll be surrounded by music, art, humour, literature and great conversation. === Now the tangents, irrelevancies and sidetrackings David Ahenakew (pronounced ah-HEN-uh-cue) is a former National Chief of the Assembly of First Nations, the most senior elected First Nations official in Canada. Earlier this week he went on what honestly sounded like a drunken anti-Semitic tirade in an on-the-record interview with a Saskatoon TV reporter. The only part I can quote without violating the list's charter (in letter or in spirit) is that "Hitler had the right idea when he fried six million Jews." It's shocked everyone, of course, and there's even talk of revoking his membership in the Order of Canada (see http://www.gg.ca/honours/order_e.asp for the neat-o medals the three levels of OoC members get to wear. I've only met one OoC member that I know of, and that was former New Brunswick premier Frank McKenna, with whom I helped arrange a meeting with my minister at the last Microsoft World Leaders Conference the time Stephen and I met in person). Anyway, Ahenakew's only position now had been as head of the "senate" of the Saskatchewan federation of First Nations, which is an honorary position (indeed, any reference to "senate" in Canada, including THE senate*, has a connotation of an old folks' home for retired politicos of various kinds) and he has announced his resignation. Current National Chief is a Quebec Ojibway [iirc; maybe he's Cree] named Matthew Coon Come**, has, of course, distanced the Assembly from Mr. Ahenakew's comments in no uncertain way. Ahenakew's tirade was so virulent there have been serious doubts raised concerning his sanity. * We also call the Senate in Parliament "the red chamber." That's because it has a red carpet, representing the background of nobility, aristocracy and royalty that the House of Lords has in Britain. There has been endless talk of reforming it, but governments are always reluctant to do so because being appointed a Senator is a convenient way to force an inconvenient politician into "early retirement" or to reward bagmen and the like. The House of Commons is sometimes called "the green chamber" because it has a green carpet, and this is symbolic, too: of the meadow of Runnymede where the Magna Carta was signed by King John. When a government in a Westminster-style country like Canada, Britain or Australia give what you guys would call a State of the Union address, it's called the Speech from the Throne, and it's composed by the government of the day, but it's read by the Head of State. This usually means the Governor-General, but if the Queen's in town, she reads it, as she's still symbolically the Head of State of most commonwealth countries (a constitutional symbolism only). And they still use the "royal we." I can still remember Elizabeth II reading a speech from the throne once, and using "Our government has pledged to..." and so on. The Head of State isn't normally allowed into the House of Commons (again, just a symbolism) so when the SftT is to be read, the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod goes to the Senate and raps on the door with the mace, and invites him/her to accompany him to the Green Chamber as his guest. Thereupon follows the "peers" which in Canada just means Senators and justices of the Supreme Court, iirc (but in Britain it also includes several Anglican bishops as Britain is still nominally an officially Anglican country). ** That's Mister Coon Come to you, bud. And yes, that's his real name. Quite photogenic, he was active in forcing the Quebec government to back down on some of its plans to flood vast areas of the James Bay and Hudsons Bay drainage basin to build more hydro plants to export electricity to the eastern US. He went to New York, addressed the UN, local business groups, the whole shebang -- he's very media savvy. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to th
Re: [ZION] BYU bars use of R-rated movies
And we have found some in our stake. When they are discovered, they are gone. Now! One nice feature of being a Stake Seminary Supervisor. Noj Jim the Babe wrote: > You might be surprised to learn the sentiments of a number of BYU > professors. Some of them will simply not tolerate the Church dictating > standards to them. > > There also seem to be a number of CES employees who aptly fit the > description of "wolves among the flock." // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] "Dr" Red Green was right all along
Marc A. Schindler wrote:
> Duct tape really is good for you...
>
> http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id={C5BC794A-4AC7-4177-93A3-31E9EA95D88E}
>
The link has changed to
http://www.nationalpost.com/search/site/story.asp?id=C5BC794A-4AC7-4177-93A3-31E9EA95D88E
It may have changed again by now.
*jeep!
--Chet
"Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you
are doing the impossible."
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[ZION] Where can the dead go; was Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Marc A. Schindler wrote: > And this part I would agree with without hesitation. In Jefferson's numerous > letters on the matter, including his famous (or infamous, depending on your pov) > letter regarding the "curtain between church and state", it seems like he was > acting as much out of disgust with existing religions as anything, but he did > write some things which indicated he did not believe Jesus Christ was anything > other than a very enlightened teacher. Unfortunately, it's like quoting dead > prophets: without their presence to defend or explain themselves, we can but try > to interpret them, and we know what that leads to. Nor did I (believe Jesus was the Son of God) when I was a Deist (although I had a slightly different view of God than John described). Mainstream Christianity is patently absurd in both its epistemological basis and in the coherency of its teaching. That's most likely why the FF gave up on it. That's why at age 12 I decided it was not true. Clearly, the Holy Ghost did not give up on me, nor does He give up on anyone. This does bring up an interesting topic. On this list, several members seemed to claim that you could not get to the CK if you didn't do you work here on earth for yourself. I would therefore assume that people like Jefferson et al and Mother Teresa could not make it to the CK. I myself do not agree with that stand, but perhaps I am missing something. Anyone care to jump in? Jon // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: Re:[ZION] BYU bars use of R-rated movies
You can fix these movies with ClearPlay.com. I use it to watch The Patriot and Black Hawk Down. it makes them somewhere between G and PG. Jon - Original Message - From: "Val" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 10:38 AM Subject: Re:[ZION] BYU bars use of R-rated movies > Bravo! How can we be held as an example to the world, when we have such a double standard. It's hard enough for me to limit my kids (teen and above) to PG-13 movies. I swear, they have more justifications than Ole' Scratch himself! > > val > > -- Jim Cobabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Deseret News, Wednesday, December 18, 2002 > > > > By Jeffrey P. Haney > Deseret News staff writer > > PROVO - Brigham Young University has raised the red flag on the use of > real-to-life Hollywood flicks to illustrate historical events. > > > Professors at BYU this semester started following a policy that > discourages showing R-rated movies in classes at the school owned by the > LDS Church, whose members are counseled by top church leaders to avoid > films with excessive gore, violence, profanity or nudity. > > > The guideline - created to set boundaries for visual and literary > materials used in class - says faculty should not "require students to > view unedited R-rated movies, as a matter not simply of content but of > obedience to prophetic counsel." > > > The two-page statement urges professors to pick films, books, poems, > paintings, music and sculptures that are "appropriate to BYU's mission > and teach them in ways that invite the spirit of God into the > classroom." > > > "It is important to help students not only to understand the world but > to stand firm against its evils - prepared to respond to its challenges > with love, testimony, wisdom, eloquence and inspired artistry of their > own," the policy says. > > > BYU spokeswoman Carri P. Jenkins said, to her knowledge, faculty won't > be disciplined if they don't adhere to the guidelines. > > > The selection of visual and literary materials "will depend on the > wisdom of the faculty," said Jenkins. > > > But BYU's guideline tells departments to "counsel" with professors who > "repeatedly choose inappropriate materials or who present materials in > inappropriate ways." > > > Students who object to material being used in class on moral grounds can > ask to be given another assignment. If the professor declines, the > student can take up the matter with the chairman of the academic > department and college dean. > > > "With this, there's a lot of invitation for discussion," said John S. > Tanner, chairman of BYU's English department. > > > Tanner, who helped cobble the guideline together using input from > faculty meetings and previous policies used in the College of > Humanities, said he hasn't received any feedback - for or against - on > the guidelines. > > > BYU bosses say the guideline will be reviewed in two years. > > > Questions about classroom use of films that had been edited for content > swirled after BYU's Varsity Theater stopped showing edited versions of > R-rated movies in 1998. > > > BYU's decision not to book edited and airline versions of R-rated movies > came after an American Fork movie theater came under legal fire for > snipping scenes from "Titanic." > > > Controversy also enveloped nudity-sensitive BYU in 1997 when officials > opted not to show four nude statues in an exhibit of works by French > sculptor Francois-Auguste-Rene Rodin. > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > > > > > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Stephen Beecroft wrote: > I would > be surprised if any man or woman can name something that God cannot do, > whether because of the limitations of "natural law" or anything else, > that doesn't fall into this class of false-by-definition. He cannot lie. He cannot disobey any of his own commandments. He cannot go back on his word. These are not false-by-definition (making a simultaneously non-existant thing existent, nor making a weight he cannot lift -- to use two silly examples), but actual deeds which he literally cannot do. I'm not even sure we can say he CHOOSES to not do these things. That may have been once so, but it appears that he long since became a person of truth and light -- and thus cannot do works of darkness. Not that he'd want to. *jeep! --Chet "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible." // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Where do old hippies go?
I thought this one was good for a chuckle... http://www.globeandmail.ca/series/cartoon/19thuedcar.html -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
God cannot rob justice to pay mercy. How's that? And I'm not trying to be cute (only my wife sometimes makes the mistake of thinking that I can be). I believe that there are laws that God must follow or He ceases to be God. Jon Stephen Beecroft wrote: > I would > be surprised if any man or woman can name something that God cannot do, > whether because of the limitations of "natural law" or anything else, > that doesn't fall into this class of false-by-definition. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Paul Osborne wrote: --- Not so. When God lays his hands upon my head and ordains me God Almighty there will be nothing that I don't know. The learning process will have ended. --- Yes, and I certainly hope you will have completed your homework by then! :-) --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] One small step for marriage
Canada's Supreme Court has ruled that disposition of property after a break-up of a common-law relationship is not subject to the same laws regarding marriage, therefore implying a difference in law. A small step, a small piece of good news. <<http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/front/RTGAM/20021219/wcomm1219/Front/homeBN/breakingnews>> -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
>There is much to learn. To complete the task requires an eternity on >the job. Not so. When God lays his hands upon my head and ordains me God Almighty there will be nothing that I don't know. The learning process will have ended. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Amen! John, you and I see this thing eye to eye and agree. Isn't it great? ;-) Paul O On Wed, 18 Dec 2002 23:27:04 -0900 "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > God cannot sin. If he did, he would cease to be God. He cannot > create > something out of nothing. He cannot annihilate something in the > sense of > causing it to altogether cease to exist in any form. He cannot > force a man > to heaven. He cannot cause mercy to rob justice. In short, he > cannot > violate any of the laws by which he is governed, which are the laws > by > which he became God, and the laws that we must keep if we would > become Gods. > > Are all of these "false-by-definition?" Maybe so. > > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Iraq
>Saddam will go. > >And as hard as it is to imagine, I guess I, too, could be wrong. You're not wrong this time. His days are numbered and the writing is on the wall. I'm in favor of a war with Iraq based on what I know about the situation. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
>Redelfs' Commentary: God became God by obedience to pre-existing, >coeternal law. And if we are to become Gods we must follow the same path >that he took. The idea that God made up the laws by which he became God is >a Protestant idea. It is not the gospel. Amen! I can see that John has it figured out. I couldn't have said it better my self. :-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
> >Probably so. I would weep for your pitiful, ignorant state, but you're > >above my visual range. > > > Hey wait, those are my lines. John, Stephen's stealing my schtick. Can't > you make him play nice? Doggone it, would you folks just hold your horses please. Don't make me come down there. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] The Gospel and National Security
I just heard something from Steve Hildreth, a defence analyst with the US federal government, that I thought I should pass on in case any are interested. BYU is sponsoring a symposium in Washington in the Spring of '03 on "The Gospel and National Security." Steve wrote an article critical of the Gulf War (among other things) for BYU Studies about the same time I wrote a similar personal essay for Dialogue which was also anti-war. He says his paper will be the lead-off paper in this conference. Don't know anything else about it, but if anyone's interested I assume they could find details on BYU's website. Incidentally, both of our articles are on my website (I've belatedly received his permission to post his): Mine's called "Is There Such a Thing as a 'Moral War'?": http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/D/moral_war.htm Steve's is called "Perspective on the 'First Presidency Statement on the MX Missile." http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/D/Hildreth.htm -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Paul Osborne wrote: > Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin?? > > Two of my most favorites. :-) > > I think had they lived a little later they would have been unfailing > arms > of the prophet Joseph Smith. This would have given him four more arms -- would he then have been better forewarned? *jeep! --Chet (who is of the opinion that Joseph pretty much knew what was going on anyway) "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible." // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Microsoft interview questions
I knew it was familiar for some reason, although I can't say I'd ever heard of it being used in place of or with cocoa (but it does explain one thing I remember: cans labelled "Karob" in German supermarkets next to the coffee and tea). And I'm sorry, I've already forgotten who it was who posted the excellent lttle article on carobs yesterday, because I wanted to add a comment to that. Its other names are "locust bean" and "St. John's Bread" in the belief that when it said in the NT that John the Baptist ate honey and locust, modern translators couldn't see him actually eating insects. Besides the yuck factor, they thought it wasn't kosher. However, locusts are indeed kosher, it turns out, (Leviticus 11:20-21) and the Greek word in the NT refers quite clearly to an insect. So he really did eat bugs. "Elmer L. Fairbank" wrote: > At 19:45 12/18/2002 -0700, M Marc wrote: > >There is a carob bean, actually, and I know it's grown in tropical > >climates, but > >that's about all I know about it. I'm not sure what they do with it, except > >perhaps use its oil (like canola, linseed or safflower). > > Haven't you ever had carob brownies? It's often used around here as a > cocoa substitute. Dang, lad, you need to make a pilgrimage to Ithaca. > > Till > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq
Alright. Let's start over. What exactly in the US State Dept. press release leads you to a conclusion other than the US got the documents first, when that is explicitly pointed out in the government's own press briefing? If you feel I've ignored a question you've raised, please remind me what it was. Larry Jackson wrote: > Marc Schindler: > > I quoted you the exact wording that made my point. I do not > need to "spin" anything. Here it is again, since you keep > deleting it in your responses, so please either do me the > courtesy of addressing the issue, or admit either apathy > (which is fine if you're tired of discussing it) or error: > > ___ > > And I quoted you the exact wording that made my point. Since > you keep ignoring it in your responses, please either do me > the courtesy of addressing the issue, or admit either apathy > (which is fine if you're tired of ignoring it) or error. > > You see, you proposed a point, I suggested it might not be > correct, and you tried to blew it off. So at this point, I > am not talking about your point. I am still talking about > my point, if you even remember what it was. > > I'll get to your point after I'm finished with mine. I'm > sorry if I'm a little more simpleminded and can only focus > on one thing at a time. It's an error I often make. > > Larry Jackson > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Nature of God
Jeffrey Ross wrote: --- Given what we know about God having been as man now is, does anyone have an opinion and/or reference on whether God was a man like you and me or was he a man like Jesus -- that is, did he have one or two mortal parents? And, does it matter? --- I suspect it does matter, as with a great number of other questions for which we really have inadequate information to even offer intelligent speculation. But we will just have to wait for the appropriate time to satisfy our understanding. My take on such things is that it does not seem to be Heavenly Father's intent for us to know too much about them. Otherwise I think He would have given us more information. We are not constrained from asking. I have the impression that many of our mighty prophets have inquired at length to be enlightened further about the nature of Heavenly Father. When the time is right, we will be taught further. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Feeling
An interesting comment about feeling-- Ye are swift to do iniquity but slow to remember the Lord your God. Ye have seen an angel, and he spake unto you; yea, ye have heard his voice from time to time; and he hath spoken unto you in a still small voice, but ye were *past feeling*, that ye could not *feel* his words; wherefore, he has spoken unto you like unto the voice of thunder, which did cause the earth to shake as if it were to divide asunder. (1 Nephi 17:45.) True religion is a feeling. It is common in anti-Mormon literature for attacks to be made on prayer and on trusting one's feelings as sources for obtaining truth. In the realm of spiritual understanding both are fundamental. Truth is felt. Falsehood is often clothed in erudite and sophisticated arguments. One does not have to be able to refute the argument to know that it is false. Truth feels good; falsehood does not. Christ spoke of the inability of the wicked to "understand with their heart" (Matthew 13:15), while the righteous "understood in their hearts" things too marvelous to utter (3 Nephi 19:33-34). Describing the spirit of revelation for Joseph Smith, the Lord said, "I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart" (D&C 8:2). Because of their wickedness, such understanding was lost to Nephi's rebellious brothers. (Joseph Fielding McConkie and Robert L. Millet, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon, 4 vols. [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1987-1992], 1: 137.) --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Natural Law
I'm afraid I don't see how it follows that we should worship the law. We have been told to worship God the Father. Period. Not even Jesus Christ -- God the Father. Worship is a person-to-person interaction as we understand it. It is the Romans who have to deal with the inherent inconsistencies in their theology. George Cobabe wrote: > Furthermore, if Natural Law is the great constant and above God, then it is > the law we should worship. If we choose to do so it is then we become more > like Protestants and Catholics, in that our object of worship becomes > something without form, no body, parts, or passions. The Law can fill the > universe and yet dwell in our hearts. We become more like Jews who know > little, or nothing, of God, yet can produce volumes and volumes on the > smallest point of law and behavior. > > Those who argue there is a Law about our God need to examine what that > belief tells them of their priorities and what they truly worship. > > I know that they can produce all kinds of smart people who agree with them, > so I recognize that the answer may not be as simple as I suggest. Forgive > me of my indiscretion if my words give offense. > > George > > - Original Message - > From: "Jim Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:31 PM > Subject: RE: [ZION] Natural Law > > > > > Another interesting reference to this question-- > > > > God is the author of law, not its creation or its servant. All light and > > all law emanate from him (see D&C 88:13). Indeed, "all kingdoms have a > > law given; and there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the > > which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no > > space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is > > given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and > > conditions" (D&C 88:36-38). Of God the revelation states, "He > > comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things > > are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and > > is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are > > by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever" (D&C 88:41). > > > > Joseph Smith asked, "Can we suppose that He [God] has a kingdom without > > laws? Or do we believe that it is composed of an innumerable company of > > beings who are entirely beyond all law? Consequently have need of > > nothing to govern or regulate them? Would not such ideas be a reproach > > to our Great Parent, and at variance with His glorious intelligence? > > Would it not be asserting that man had found out a secret beyond Deity? > > That he had learned that it was good to have laws, while God after > > existing from eternity and having power to create man, had not found out > > that it was proper to have laws for His government?" (Teachings of the > > Prophet Joseph Smith, 55). > > > > "God," Joseph Smith taught, "has made certain decrees which are fixed > > and immovable; for instance, God set the sun, the moon, and the stars in > > the heavens, and gave them their laws, conditions and bounds, which they > > cannot pass, except by His commandments; they all move in perfect > > harmony in their sphere and order, and are as lights, wonders and signs > > unto us. The sea also has its bounds which it cannot pass. God has set > > many signs on the earth, as well as in the heavens; for instance, the > > oak of the forest, the fruit of the tree, the herb of the field, all > > bear a sign that seed hath been planted there; for it is a decree of the > > Lord that every tree, plant, and herb bearing seed should bring forth of > > its kind, and cannot come forth after any other law or principle" > > (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 197-98). > > > > God is not a scientist. He does not harness law and then use it to bless > > and govern his creations. God is the author and source of all law. Were > > this not the case, the powers of evil could seek his overthrow through > > the discovery of unknown laws. We would live in endless peril. Our > > prayers would then be for God, not to him, and scientists rather than > > prophets would hold the keys of salvation. > > > > True it is that God was once a man obtaining his exalted status by > > obedience to the laws of his own eternal Father, but upon obtaining that > > station he becomes the source of light and law to all that he creates. > > Following this same pattern, the resurrected Christ said to the > > Nephites, "I am the law" (3 Ne. 15:9). > > > > > > (Joseph Fielding McConkie, Answers: Straightforward Answers to Tough > > Gospel Questions [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1998], 167.) > > > > --- > > Mij Ebaboc > > > > > > // > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > //
RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Tom Matkin wrote: --- Didn't Joseph talk about how truth "tasted" good to him? That was provocative enough for me to remember it. Maybe he said "feels good" too. --- In Lehi's Tree of Life vision he declares that the fruit of the tree is most desirable and sweet. Alma's discourse on faith (Alma 32) also uses this metaphor. "And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst. "Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you." (Alma 32:42-43.) --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
I can't speak for others, but I rather suspect the "false-by-definition" term is used to forestall things like the well-known objection to omnipotence which asks, in an aristotelian type of dialogue: "Is God omnipotent?" "Yes." "Then, can he build a stone so big he can't roll it?" It's a logical paradox. Romans get around this by calling it a mystery, like the trinity. But we don't believe in "magic" and a "mystery" in this context is what I would call "magic." "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > Stephen Beecroft favored us with: > >I would be surprised if any man or woman can name something that God > >cannot do, > >whether because of the limitations of "natural law" or anything else, that > >doesn't fall into this class of false-by-definition. > > God cannot sin. If he did, he would cease to be God. He cannot create > something out of nothing. He cannot annihilate something in the sense of > causing it to altogether cease to exist in any form. He cannot force a man > to heaven. He cannot cause mercy to rob justice. In short, he cannot > violate any of the laws by which he is governed, which are the laws by > which he became God, and the laws that we must keep if we would become Gods. > > Are all of these "false-by-definition?" Maybe so. > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > You know what would make a good story? Something > about a clown who make people happy, but inside he's > real sad. Also, he has severe diarrhea. --Jack Handy > === > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] Missile defense
The US will build the first stages of a missile defense system in Alaska over the next couple of years. Ideally the system will evolve into technology that will prevent offensive ICBMs from attacking North America. Countries that were vying to enter the ICBM game have cause for concern--PRC, North Korea, Iran, Iraq, former Soviet countries and their more affluent friends. They're staking potentially huge investments in an offensive infrastructure in which they can now place little confidence. The problem with ground-launched missiles, as the Russians found, is that low-orbit satellite monitors can watch their every move. And expensive missiles sitting in their silos become a big maintenance liability. You can't just park 'em and forget 'em until you're ready to fire. Nor can you pretend that you're just getting ready to launch a weather satellite. Defensive measures based on technology like the relatively inexpensive Patriot missile are a deterrent to the development of offensive strike ICBMs, even if they have only a limited effectiveness. Nobody will be as anxious to pass the point of no return in firing off missiles if they might get shot down. After a missile is launched, it is impossible to disguise the source or the offensive intent. What good is an interceptor defense against offensive weapons launched by terrorist crazies? Maybe not much. But probably better than nothing. At least with the initial development effort, the technology can be tested and improved. It is worth noting that the technology evolved not at all while naysayers argued against it. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Mij wrote: >The idea, as Joseph Smith might say, "feels good" to > me. Didn't Joseph talk about how truth "tasted" good to him? That was provocative enough for me to remember it. Maybe he said "feels good" too. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six 1843-44, p.354 Quote (emphasis added): The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits. This is good doctrine. It *tastes good*. I can *taste* the principles of eternal life, and so can you. They are given to my by the revelations of Jesus Christ; and I know that when I tell you these words of eternal life as they are given to me, *you taste them*, and I know that you believe them. You say honey is sweet, and so do I. I can also *taste* the spirit of eternal life. I know it is good; and when I tell you of these things which were given my by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you are bound to receive them as sweet, and rejoice more and more. Close Quote Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Nature of God
Jeff, I do not think it matters. I tend to go with the odds and believe that He was not likely a Savior like Jesus, but, the King Follett address seems to imply that He was a Savior. Joseph did not say it in an unequivocal statement, but it was close. So I probably need to repent of my view (on this matter). George - Original Message - From: "Jeffrey Ross" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 10:24 AM Subject: [ZION] Nature of God >>> John W. Redelfs<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 12/18/2002 7:09:54 PM >>> >This is not Mormon doctrine according to my understanding. God was once a >mortal man, and became God by living the natural laws that never had a >beginning and will never have an end. Given what we know about God having been as man now is, does anyone have an opinion and/or reference on whether God was a man like you and me or was he a man like Jesus -- that is, did he have one or two mortal parents? And, does it matter? --Jeff. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Microsoft interview questions
At 19:45 12/18/2002 -0700, M Marc wrote: There is a carob bean, actually, and I know it's grown in tropical climates, but that's about all I know about it. I'm not sure what they do with it, except perhaps use its oil (like canola, linseed or safflower). Haven't you ever had carob brownies? It's often used around here as a cocoa substitute. Dang, lad, you need to make a pilgrimage to Ithaca. Till // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] World's Tallest Buildings
At 17:30 12/18/2002 -0900, BLT wrote: I think it is hubris to imagine we should build towers still taller than the WTC. Sure they can build them, but the experience with the WTC proves that someone else can knock them down. What is the point? Why make buildings a tempting target unnecessarily? I should think that the builders of the WTC would have learned their lesson. Super tall building are not a good idea. It was super great fun when we were little tykes, building those tall towers out of blocks and then knocking them down. Till // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
At 02:05 12/19/2002 +, St Stephen wrote: Probably so. I would weep for your pitiful, ignorant state, but you're above my visual range. Hey wait, those are my lines. John, Stephen's stealing my schtick. Can't you make him play nice? Till the crushed // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Nature of God
>>> John W. Redelfs<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 12/18/2002 7:09:54 PM >>> >This is not Mormon doctrine according to my understanding. God was once a >mortal man, and became God by living the natural laws that never had a >beginning and will never have an end. Given what we know about God having been as man now is, does anyone have an opinion and/or reference on whether God was a man like you and me or was he a man like Jesus -- that is, did he have one or two mortal parents? And, does it matter? --Jeff. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] The latest from Iraq
Marc Schindler: I quoted you the exact wording that made my point. I do not need to "spin" anything. Here it is again, since you keep deleting it in your responses, so please either do me the courtesy of addressing the issue, or admit either apathy (which is fine if you're tired of discussing it) or error: ___ And I quoted you the exact wording that made my point. Since you keep ignoring it in your responses, please either do me the courtesy of addressing the issue, or admit either apathy (which is fine if you're tired of ignoring it) or error. You see, you proposed a point, I suggested it might not be correct, and you tried to blew it off. So at this point, I am not talking about your point. I am still talking about my point, if you even remember what it was. I'll get to your point after I'm finished with mine. I'm sorry if I'm a little more simpleminded and can only focus on one thing at a time. It's an error I often make. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] BYU bars use of R-rated movies
Val wrote: --- Bravo! How can we be held as an example to the world, when we have such a double standard. It's hard enough for me to limit my kids (teen and above) to PG-13 movies. I swear, they have more justifications than Ole' Scratch himself! --- You might be surprised to learn the sentiments of a number of BYU professors. Some of them will simply not tolerate the Church dictating standards to them. There also seem to be a number of CES employees who aptly fit the description of "wolves among the flock." --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Two Towers
In a word "incredible" val Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re:[ZION] BYU bars use of R-rated movies
Bravo! How can we be held as an example to the world, when we have such a double standard. It's hard enough for me to limit my kids (teen and above) to PG-13 movies. I swear, they have more justifications than Ole' Scratch himself! val -- Jim Cobabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Deseret News, Wednesday, December 18, 2002 By Jeffrey P. Haney Deseret News staff writer PROVO Brigham Young University has raised the red flag on the use of real-to-life Hollywood flicks to illustrate historical events. Professors at BYU this semester started following a policy that discourages showing R-rated movies in classes at the school owned by the LDS Church, whose members are counseled by top church leaders to avoid films with excessive gore, violence, profanity or nudity. The guideline created to set boundaries for visual and literary materials used in class says faculty should not "require students to view unedited R-rated movies, as a matter not simply of content but of obedience to prophetic counsel." The two-page statement urges professors to pick films, books, poems, paintings, music and sculptures that are "appropriate to BYU's mission and teach them in ways that invite the spirit of God into the classroom." "It is important to help students not only to understand the world but to stand firm against its evils prepared to respond to its challenges with love, testimony, wisdom, eloquence and inspired artistry of their own," the policy says. BYU spokeswoman Carri P. Jenkins said, to her knowledge, faculty won't be disciplined if they don't adhere to the guidelines. The selection of visual and literary materials "will depend on the wisdom of the faculty," said Jenkins. But BYU's guideline tells departments to "counsel" with professors who "repeatedly choose inappropriate materials or who present materials in inappropriate ways." Students who object to material being used in class on moral grounds can ask to be given another assignment. If the professor declines, the student can take up the matter with the chairman of the academic department and college dean. "With this, there's a lot of invitation for discussion," said John S. Tanner, chairman of BYU's English department. Tanner, who helped cobble the guideline together using input from faculty meetings and previous policies used in the College of Humanities, said he hasn't received any feedback for or against on the guidelines. BYU bosses say the guideline will be reviewed in two years. Questions about classroom use of films that had been edited for content swirled after BYU's Varsity Theater stopped showing edited versions of R-rated movies in 1998. BYU's decision not to book edited and airline versions of R-rated movies came after an American Fork movie theater came under legal fire for snipping scenes from "Titanic." Controversy also enveloped nudity-sensitive BYU in 1997 when officials opted not to show four nude statues in an exhibit of works by French sculptor Francois-Auguste-Rene Rodin. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re:[ZION] World's Tallest Buildings
I agree, John. On NPR this morning, I heard that the original plans submitted this summer, were short buildings and plazas--and New Yorkers protested that they thought the plans were "too boring". All twelve of the new plans call for tall buildings. Again, the arrogance of the American--sometimes I want to ask "Who the heck do we think we are??". . .I can imagine Osama and his cultist faction, drooling and anxiously waiting in anticipation at the completion of such a prominent target. One of the designers even said that immediately he knew he'd have a hard time getting occupants for the higher floors, but he said that 10 or 12 years from now, it won't be a problem. I predict it will be sooner. As Americans, we become complacent way to easily and quickly. It's irritating. done venting your sis in Mishawka val --John W. Redelfs gave us pause to think with: I think it is hubris to imagine we should build towers still taller than the WTC. Sure they can build them, but the experience with the WTC proves that someone else can knock them down. What is the point? Why make buildings a tempting target unnecessarily? I should think that the builders of the WTC would have learned their lesson. Super tall building are not a good idea. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday School and seminary classes every fourth year. This four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by Church members in their personal and family study. We need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get a man "nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] BYU bars use of R-rated movies
Deseret News, Wednesday, December 18, 2002 By Jeffrey P. Haney Deseret News staff writer PROVO Brigham Young University has raised the red flag on the use of real-to-life Hollywood flicks to illustrate historical events. Professors at BYU this semester started following a policy that discourages showing R-rated movies in classes at the school owned by the LDS Church, whose members are counseled by top church leaders to avoid films with excessive gore, violence, profanity or nudity. The guideline created to set boundaries for visual and literary materials used in class says faculty should not "require students to view unedited R-rated movies, as a matter not simply of content but of obedience to prophetic counsel." The two-page statement urges professors to pick films, books, poems, paintings, music and sculptures that are "appropriate to BYU's mission and teach them in ways that invite the spirit of God into the classroom." "It is important to help students not only to understand the world but to stand firm against its evils prepared to respond to its challenges with love, testimony, wisdom, eloquence and inspired artistry of their own," the policy says. BYU spokeswoman Carri P. Jenkins said, to her knowledge, faculty won't be disciplined if they don't adhere to the guidelines. The selection of visual and literary materials "will depend on the wisdom of the faculty," said Jenkins. But BYU's guideline tells departments to "counsel" with professors who "repeatedly choose inappropriate materials or who present materials in inappropriate ways." Students who object to material being used in class on moral grounds can ask to be given another assignment. If the professor declines, the student can take up the matter with the chairman of the academic department and college dean. "With this, there's a lot of invitation for discussion," said John S. Tanner, chairman of BYU's English department. Tanner, who helped cobble the guideline together using input from faculty meetings and previous policies used in the College of Humanities, said he hasn't received any feedback for or against on the guidelines. BYU bosses say the guideline will be reviewed in two years. Questions about classroom use of films that had been edited for content swirled after BYU's Varsity Theater stopped showing edited versions of R-rated movies in 1998. BYU's decision not to book edited and airline versions of R-rated movies came after an American Fork movie theater came under legal fire for snipping scenes from "Titanic." Controversy also enveloped nudity-sensitive BYU in 1997 when officials opted not to show four nude statues in an exhibit of works by French sculptor Francois-Auguste-Rene Rodin. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Natural Law
Opps, I meant to say: "Those who argue there is a Law *above* our God need ..." George - Original Message - From: "George Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 6:38 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Natural Law > Furthermore, if Natural Law is the great constant and above God, then it is > the law we should worship. If we choose to do so it is then we become more > like Protestants and Catholics, in that our object of worship becomes > something without form, no body, parts, or passions. The Law can fill the > universe and yet dwell in our hearts. We become more like Jews who know > little, or nothing, of God, yet can produce volumes and volumes on the > smallest point of law and behavior. > > Those who argue there is a Law about our God need to examine what that > belief tells them of their priorities and what they truly worship. > > I know that they can produce all kinds of smart people who agree with them, > so I recognize that the answer may not be as simple as I suggest. Forgive > me of my indiscretion if my words give offense. > > George > > - Original Message - > From: "Jim Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:31 PM > Subject: RE: [ZION] Natural Law > > > > > > Another interesting reference to this question-- > > > > God is the author of law, not its creation or its servant. All light and > > all law emanate from him (see D&C 88:13). Indeed, "all kingdoms have a > > law given; and there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the > > which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no > > space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is > > given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and > > conditions" (D&C 88:36-38). Of God the revelation states, "He > > comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things > > are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and > > is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are > > by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever" (D&C 88:41). > > > > Joseph Smith asked, "Can we suppose that He [God] has a kingdom without > > laws? Or do we believe that it is composed of an innumerable company of > > beings who are entirely beyond all law? Consequently have need of > > nothing to govern or regulate them? Would not such ideas be a reproach > > to our Great Parent, and at variance with His glorious intelligence? > > Would it not be asserting that man had found out a secret beyond Deity? > > That he had learned that it was good to have laws, while God after > > existing from eternity and having power to create man, had not found out > > that it was proper to have laws for His government?" (Teachings of the > > Prophet Joseph Smith, 55). > > > > "God," Joseph Smith taught, "has made certain decrees which are fixed > > and immovable; for instance, God set the sun, the moon, and the stars in > > the heavens, and gave them their laws, conditions and bounds, which they > > cannot pass, except by His commandments; they all move in perfect > > harmony in their sphere and order, and are as lights, wonders and signs > > unto us. The sea also has its bounds which it cannot pass. God has set > > many signs on the earth, as well as in the heavens; for instance, the > > oak of the forest, the fruit of the tree, the herb of the field, all > > bear a sign that seed hath been planted there; for it is a decree of the > > Lord that every tree, plant, and herb bearing seed should bring forth of > > its kind, and cannot come forth after any other law or principle" > > (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 197-98). > > > > God is not a scientist. He does not harness law and then use it to bless > > and govern his creations. God is the author and source of all law. Were > > this not the case, the powers of evil could seek his overthrow through > > the discovery of unknown laws. We would live in endless peril. Our > > prayers would then be for God, not to him, and scientists rather than > > prophets would hold the keys of salvation. > > > > True it is that God was once a man obtaining his exalted status by > > obedience to the laws of his own eternal Father, but upon obtaining that > > station he becomes the source of light and law to all that he creates. > > Following this same pattern, the resurrected Christ said to the > > Nephites, "I am the law" (3 Ne. 15:9). > > > > > > (Joseph Fielding McConkie, Answers: Straightforward Answers to Tough > > Gospel Questions [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1998], 167.) > > > > --- > > Mij Ebaboc > > > > > > // > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > > / > > > > > > > > //
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Redelfs' Commentary: God became God by obedience to pre-existing, coeternal law. And if we are to become Gods we must follow the same path that he took. The idea that God made up the laws by which he became God is a Protestant idea. It is not the gospel. I do not believe that anyone is suggesting that God make up the law by which He became God. That is, of course, nonsense, His Father created the laws by which our Father lived his mortal life. When God created this universe, and this world, He created the Laws by which things work, which may be the same as what His Father created or they may be different. The bottom line is that our Father is responsible for the Laws by which we live. My earlier, rather lengthy, post suggested several reasons, in the quotes provided, why many people agree with the idea that our God is uniquely responsible for the laws by which we must operate. What did you think of their arguments? George - Original Message - From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 1:18 AM Subject: RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law > Jim Cobabe favored us with: > >He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all > >things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all > >things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and > >all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever. > > > >And again, verily I say unto you, he hath given a law unto all things, > >by which they move in their times and their seasons;(D&C 88:41-42) > > Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol.3, OMNIPOTENT GOD; OMNIPRESENCE OF GOD; > OMNISCIENCE OF GOD > > However, the Church does not understand this term in the traditional sense > of absoluteness, and, on the authority of modern revelation, rejects the > classical doctrine of creation out of nothing. It affirms, rather, that > there are actualities that are coeternal with the persons of the Godhead, > INCLUDING ELEMENTS, INTELLIGENCE, AND LAW (D&C 93:29, 33, 35: 88:34-40). > Omnipotence, therefore, cannot coherently be understood as absolutely > unlimited power. That view is internally self-contradictory and, given the > fact that evil and suffering are real, not reconcilable with God's > omnibenevolence or loving kindness (see Theodicy). > > D&C 93:29 > 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of > truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. > > Bibliography: > Roberts, B. H. "The Doctrine of Deity." Seventy's Course in Theology, third > year. Salt Lake City, 1910. > --- > > Redelfs' Commentary: God became God by obedience to pre-existing, > coeternal law. And if we are to become Gods we must follow the same path > that he took. The idea that God made up the laws by which he became God is > a Protestant idea. It is not the gospel. > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > "...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest" --Joseph > Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248 > *** > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
As God is, man may become by obeying the laws that God (created) to (allow us to) become God. Just a little change. :-) Then it becomes a truly correct statement. George - Original Message - From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 1:38 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law > Paul Osborne favored us with: > >God does what his Father did before him... > > As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become by obeying the same > laws that God did to become God. --JWR > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Natural Law
Furthermore, if Natural Law is the great constant and above God, then it is the law we should worship. If we choose to do so it is then we become more like Protestants and Catholics, in that our object of worship becomes something without form, no body, parts, or passions. The Law can fill the universe and yet dwell in our hearts. We become more like Jews who know little, or nothing, of God, yet can produce volumes and volumes on the smallest point of law and behavior. Those who argue there is a Law about our God need to examine what that belief tells them of their priorities and what they truly worship. I know that they can produce all kinds of smart people who agree with them, so I recognize that the answer may not be as simple as I suggest. Forgive me of my indiscretion if my words give offense. George - Original Message - From: "Jim Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:31 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Natural Law > > Another interesting reference to this question-- > > God is the author of law, not its creation or its servant. All light and > all law emanate from him (see D&C 88:13). Indeed, "all kingdoms have a > law given; and there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the > which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no > space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is > given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and > conditions" (D&C 88:36-38). Of God the revelation states, "He > comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things > are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and > is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are > by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever" (D&C 88:41). > > Joseph Smith asked, "Can we suppose that He [God] has a kingdom without > laws? Or do we believe that it is composed of an innumerable company of > beings who are entirely beyond all law? Consequently have need of > nothing to govern or regulate them? Would not such ideas be a reproach > to our Great Parent, and at variance with His glorious intelligence? > Would it not be asserting that man had found out a secret beyond Deity? > That he had learned that it was good to have laws, while God after > existing from eternity and having power to create man, had not found out > that it was proper to have laws for His government?" (Teachings of the > Prophet Joseph Smith, 55). > > "God," Joseph Smith taught, "has made certain decrees which are fixed > and immovable; for instance, God set the sun, the moon, and the stars in > the heavens, and gave them their laws, conditions and bounds, which they > cannot pass, except by His commandments; they all move in perfect > harmony in their sphere and order, and are as lights, wonders and signs > unto us. The sea also has its bounds which it cannot pass. God has set > many signs on the earth, as well as in the heavens; for instance, the > oak of the forest, the fruit of the tree, the herb of the field, all > bear a sign that seed hath been planted there; for it is a decree of the > Lord that every tree, plant, and herb bearing seed should bring forth of > its kind, and cannot come forth after any other law or principle" > (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 197-98). > > God is not a scientist. He does not harness law and then use it to bless > and govern his creations. God is the author and source of all law. Were > this not the case, the powers of evil could seek his overthrow through > the discovery of unknown laws. We would live in endless peril. Our > prayers would then be for God, not to him, and scientists rather than > prophets would hold the keys of salvation. > > True it is that God was once a man obtaining his exalted status by > obedience to the laws of his own eternal Father, but upon obtaining that > station he becomes the source of light and law to all that he creates. > Following this same pattern, the resurrected Christ said to the > Nephites, "I am the law" (3 Ne. 15:9). > > > (Joseph Fielding McConkie, Answers: Straightforward Answers to Tough > Gospel Questions [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1998], 167.) > > --- > Mij Ebaboc > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email t
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Yes, it is His assurances that tell me I can count on His statements and His Laws - of any kind. However, I am not the first to use this concept of the need for God to be consistent in order to be God. (Alma 42:13.) 13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God. (Mormon 9:19.) 19 And if there were miracles wrought then, why has God ceased to be a God of miracles and yet be an unchangeable Being? And behold, I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles. It is important that I say that I, with you, believe this is just not a realistic concern. George - Original Message - From: "Jim Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:25 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law > > George Cobabe wrote: > --- > I can agree "that God is "subject to 'natural law", but only in the > sense that He has created those laws and needs to maintain the integrity > to obey the same rules that He has created. If He did not honor His > word or His law He would cease to be God. > --- > > The possibility that God would cease to be God is, of course, no > possibility at all. God has assured us that He is endless and eternal. > > --- > Mij Ebaboc > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Paul Osborne favored us with: God does what his Father did before him... As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become by obeying the same laws that God did to become God. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Jim Cobabe favored us with: I'm honestly not trying to promote Protestant doctrine. But there are obviously some issues here that merit further consideration. I am sure you realize that we are not necessarily covering new ground in any of our discussions on this list. I have little doubt that the people of this world have been striving to learn the true nature of Heavenly Father since Adam was expelled from the Garden. There is much to learn. To complete the task requires an eternity on the job. I agree completely. But I also know that just as matter has always existed, and spirit has always existed, and our intelligences have always existed, so too law has always existed. There are the laws by which God governs us, and there are the laws by which he became God. We become Gods ourselves in exactly the same way that he did: by complying with eternal, uncreated law. I agree that we may not have an inkling of those uncreated laws. For all I know, the laws of chemistry, physics, gravity, Newton, etc. are just created laws. But somewhere there is uncreated law. If not, then there would have been no way for God to create (organize) the universe. He didn't create himself. And he didn't create the matter from which the universe was organized. And when he organized the universe he had to do it in compliance with the uncreated laws of which I speak. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday School and seminary classes every fourth year. This four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by Church members in their personal and family study. We need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get a man "nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Natural Law
Stephen Beecroft favored us with: He's also the teacher who effectively pointed out that we do indeed believe in salvation by grace, despite what many Latter-day Saints mistakenly believe and even teach. Of course we believe in salvation by grace. The Protestant heresy that we repudiate is salvation by grace ALONE without works. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Jim Cobabe favored us with: He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever. And again, verily I say unto you, he hath given a law unto all things, by which they move in their times and their seasons;(D&C 88:41-42) Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol.3, OMNIPOTENT GOD; OMNIPRESENCE OF GOD; OMNISCIENCE OF GOD However, the Church does not understand this term in the traditional sense of absoluteness, and, on the authority of modern revelation, rejects the classical doctrine of creation out of nothing. It affirms, rather, that there are actualities that are coeternal with the persons of the Godhead, INCLUDING ELEMENTS, INTELLIGENCE, AND LAW (D&C 93:29, 33, 35: 88:34-40). Omnipotence, therefore, cannot coherently be understood as absolutely unlimited power. That view is internally self-contradictory and, given the fact that evil and suffering are real, not reconcilable with God's omnibenevolence or loving kindness (see Theodicy). D&C 93:29 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. Bibliography: Roberts, B. H. "The Doctrine of Deity." Seventy's Course in Theology, third year. Salt Lake City, 1910. --- Redelfs' Commentary: God became God by obedience to pre-existing, coeternal law. And if we are to become Gods we must follow the same path that he took. The idea that God made up the laws by which he became God is a Protestant idea. It is not the gospel. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** "...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest" --Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248 *** All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Stephen Beecroft favored us with: I would be surprised if any man or woman can name something that God cannot do, whether because of the limitations of "natural law" or anything else, that doesn't fall into this class of false-by-definition. God cannot sin. If he did, he would cease to be God. He cannot create something out of nothing. He cannot annihilate something in the sense of causing it to altogether cease to exist in any form. He cannot force a man to heaven. He cannot cause mercy to rob justice. In short, he cannot violate any of the laws by which he is governed, which are the laws by which he became God, and the laws that we must keep if we would become Gods. Are all of these "false-by-definition?" Maybe so. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === You know what would make a good story? Something about a clown who make people happy, but inside he's real sad. Also, he has severe diarrhea. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
