Re: [ZION] Moral War
At 10:56 1/23/2003 -0900, BLT wrote: Fundamental principle: Self-defense is OK. Everything else is unlawful. 1) We defend ourselves even if it means shedding blood. 2) We never give offense. 3) We never fight except to preserve our lives. 4) We only fight when God commands us to fight. I don't have the reference handy here, but there is somewhat in the DC? about Abraham's rules of engagement. I think these should be added to this list (or at least the list corrected to include them). I won't comment on current state of affairs as it's principles that are being discussed first. Till who adjusted the flint in his musket last night // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
[ZION] Moral War
John, et al, - as you can see I have tried to be more complete, in my answers than perhaps you acknowledge. In fact I have made some modifications to your list of understanding. Read the following from a previous post and then my comments at the end of this post. I would be interested in where we all agree and where we do not with my list and comments. Once we have a better idea of the standards it will be fun to see how the current situation fits with the agreed upon standards. George said in an earlier post: From the first I have used Alma 48, et al, to start the definition of a moral war. I think that John has, in this instance, done an admirable, but basic and incomplete, job of defining what is needed for moral action in the event of war. Therefore, I would like to add a few comments based on my own feelings, as well as some contributions from others in this discussion. I am using Johns comments as a beginning point of discussion, therefore what follows is not a critique, rather an expansion. 1) We defend ourselves even if it means shedding blood. I must add the consideration of doing all we can to avoid killing and destruction insofar as possible. We can not, when given the justification to go to war, use it as a pretense, or cause, to wield unfettered destruction and death upon the enemy. This is against the basic nature of the combatants, who have the tendency and instructions to go out and do all the damage possible to defeat the enemy. The control, however difficult, of such warriors is one aspect of Morality in war 2) We never give offense. We must also act proactively to correct the causes that might give offense, not to the extreme of doing anything at any cost, but we must act to prevent and correct negative conditions throughout the world. 3) We never fight except to preserve our lives. There is an additional consideration as we also have a obligation to preserve principles, not just our lives. There are principles that are worthy to give our lives for. We can preserve our lives by giving in to tyrants. This is not acceptable and is in fact immoral to do so. The reason we fight is as important as the way we fight. The acquisition of land and influence is not a principle that is acceptable as a reason to go to war. But the preservation of Liberty and freedom is a cause for action. The question was asked by one, is it not possible for both sides to fight a moral war? No, it is not!!! We must only fight after we have done all we can to prevent a war. If both sides are trying to do this, war will not occur. Moral action by both parties will always result in peace. For war to occur one or both must be acting immorally. We have every moral right to act in our best interests, in complying with this 3rd consideration, and therefore to act when the other side is preparing or taking the first steps to act against us. Such hostile preparations can be a cause for pre-emptive action, but only after all other means of resolution are exhausted. 4) We only fight when God commands us to fight. This is good, but not possible in today's world. The best we can do is make sure that our definition of Moral war is consistent with Gods commandments and then do our best to comply. 5) We must treat the losers with honor and dignity, irrespective of their prior actions. We must do all we can to mitigate the effects of our actions against them. The moral victor must always look at the loser as a victim of a terrible tragedy, even if brought upon themselves, and must do all they can to correct the negative situation. Other questions such as crossing boundaries or international law or Geneva Convention only are applications of the basic considerations of Moral action in the event of war. We are a people of Peace, both as Church members and as citizens of Nations. I believe this is especially true of the United States, but also of other nations most of the time. You can point out all sorts of actions that might seem to go against the argument, but I think that MOST actions by the US fit into the above criteria. Would anyone disagree with this definition of Moral War? Or would anyone add to this list of requirements? Now if you want the flames to fly - apply this to a real situation and we will see how difficult it is to fight a moral war and apply each of these rules to the conflict. George now adds to the discussion with two additional comments: 1. I have never said that George Bush is like unto Moroni. That is something you have added to the discussion. I have said that the two situations, Alma 48 and today, have a great deal in common, from the point of view of the situation causing the response and what the appropriate response might be today. 2. If you require that the United States, or any other nation, be perfectly righteous before any moral action can be taken, then our discussion is over. Over - because you set an unnecessarily impossible condition for moral action.
[ZION] Important questions
You've missed some important questions: Who has used these weapons against innocent peoples? Who has used these weapons on their own peoples? Who is more likely to sell these weapons to terrorists? Who has shown more restraint on using these weapons? We could ask about the days of Captain Moroni: Who was better armed? Who had better armaments? Who had better armor? Who was better trained for war? I think we can all agree that Moroni was the warmonger, if we just limit the questions to such as these. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. JWR: Here are three important questions that need to be answered before we launch a preemptive strike against Iraq: Who has more nuclear weapons, Iraq or the United States? Who has more chemical weapons, Iraq or the United States? Who has more biological weapons, Iraq or the United States? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
[ZION] Moral War
I see Captain Moroni also living in such a time. He was fighting a corrupt government, but his cause was still just. You'll note that Pahoran was kicked out of power for a time, but the government was recovered (though never quite the same afteward). There's a good possibility that some corruption remained in their government even after Moroni kicked the kingmen into prison. There were lower judges doing corrupt things, even while the main judge was righteous, and vice versa. We can't paint the Nephite government with such a broad stroke of whiteness, when we know there is no such thing as a perfect government without perfect people. Our nation has problems, but there are many good people trying to regain power over the government to return it to righteousness. Would you not agree that GWBush is a better man than Clinton? Are the Republican House and Senate not right now discussing issues to stop partial birth abortion? We don't read about gambling, or pornography in the BoM, though I'm sure they were there. Alcohol was used in Moroni's battles, both against the Lamanites, but also the Nephite armies drank (they tested their alcohol on their prisoners). Moroni fought a moral war, even when his government was corrupt. In fact, it was the corrupt faction that sought to end the warring with treaties. Something to think about. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. JWR: I think we are in general agreement about what constitutes a moral war, but I'm not certain. We seem to read Alma 48 differently. Both you and Gary seem to see both Captain Moroni and George W. Bush as the guys with the white hats, and Saddam Hussein and Iraq as the guys with the black hats. For me, I don't see how the USA can be the white hats as long as it has legalized pornography, gambling, adultery, sodomy, abortion, alcohol use, and the socialistic redistribution of the wealth. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
[ZION] Important questions
Well, I hope we don't have to bomb Iraq. I hope we can get Saddam out of there without having to injure a single Iraqi individual, or risk our own troops. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. Paul: Gee-wizz, John. I thought we weren't suppose to talk about Iraq? Remember the last flame war we had? Well, since we are about to go at it again I will only make one little itty bitty comment which is that I hope we bomb the hell out Iraq and roll our tanks right into the palaces of that madman in Baghdad. Enough said. Now back to lurking. :-) Paul O // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
[ZION] The Zion List Has Moved
Dear Zionisti, The Zion list has moved from the Topica server to the SmartGroups server. Please send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am sorry for the inconvenience. John W. Redelfs, Listowner of Zionsbest [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Moral War
Gary favored us with: Are the Republican House and Senate not right now discussing issues to stop charter-prohibited subject? They may be talking about it, but unless something is actually done, and laws are passed and enforced, then it doesn't make the world any safer for the innocents. Geoff -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
[ZION] Conditional divine love
Some time ago on this very list (probably its incarnation on zilker.net or some other pre-Topica server), a rather heated discussion -- imagine that! -- arose regarding, of all topics, God's love. Some of us claimed that the scriptures clearly teach that God's love is conditional, given to some more than to others, and dependent in its intensity on the actions and heart of the recipient; while others steadfastly maintained that God's love is unconditional, that he loves the rankest, vilest sinner just as much as he loves the most virtuous of men and women. I thus find it interesting that this month's Ensign includes an article by Elder Nelson extolling the *conditional* nature of God's love. I definitely recommend the article to all, which starts on page 20 of the February 2003 Ensign. Some relevant quotations follow: While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as *unconditional*. [emphasis in original] With scriptural patterns of conditional statements in mind, we note many verses that declare the conditional nature of divine love for us. Examples include: [John 15:10; DC 95:12; John 14:23; Proverbs 8:17; Acts 10:34-35; 1 Nephi 17:40; John 14:21] Understanding that divine love and blessings are not truly 'unconditional' can defend us against common fallacies such as these: 'Since God's love is unconditional, He will love me regardless...'; or 'Since ''God is love,'' He will love me unconditionally, regardless...' These arguments are used by anti-Christs to woo people with deception. Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are conditional -- predicated upon our obedience to eternal law. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love
Stephen, Great post! According to the prophets, then it appears that there are actually two types of love: 1. Divine love 2. Unconditional love They are not one and the same. However, it is true that our Heavenly Father has and exercises both, and that we are commanded to do likewise. Would you agree? Geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/24/03 09:32AM Some time ago on this very list (probably its incarnation on zilker.net or some other pre-Topica server), a rather heated discussion -- imagine that! -- arose regarding, of all topics, God's love. Some of us claimed that the scriptures clearly teach that God's love is conditional, given to some more than to others, and dependent in its intensity on the actions and heart of the recipient; while others steadfastly maintained that God's love is unconditional, that he loves the rankest, vilest sinner just as much as he loves the most virtuous of men and women. I thus find it interesting that this month's Ensign includes an article by Elder Nelson extolling the *conditional* nature of God's love. I definitely recommend the article to all, which starts on page 20 of the February 2003 Ensign. Some relevant quotations follow: While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as *unconditional*. [emphasis in original] With scriptural patterns of conditional statements in mind, we note many verses that declare the conditional nature of divine love for us. Examples include: [John 15:10; DC 95:12; John 14:23; Proverbs 8:17; Acts 10:34-35; 1 Nephi 17:40; John 14:21] Understanding that divine love and blessings are not truly 'unconditional' can defend us against common fallacies such as these: 'Since God's love is unconditional, He will love me regardless...'; or 'Since ''God is love,'' He will love me unconditionally, regardless...' These arguments are used by anti-Christs to woo people with deception. Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are conditional -- predicated upon our obedience to eternal law. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love
I have been waiting to hear these kinds of sentiments for a long time! Bravo!!! Stacy. At 04:32 PM 01/24/2003 +, you wrote: Some time ago on this very list (probably its incarnation on zilker.net or some other pre-Topica server), a rather heated discussion -- imagine that! -- arose regarding, of all topics, God's love. Some of us claimed that the scriptures clearly teach that God's love is conditional, given to some more than to others, and dependent in its intensity on the actions and heart of the recipient; while others steadfastly maintained that God's love is unconditional, that he loves the rankest, vilest sinner just as much as he loves the most virtuous of men and women. I thus find it interesting that this month's Ensign includes an article by Elder Nelson extolling the *conditional* nature of God's love. I definitely recommend the article to all, which starts on page 20 of the February 2003 Ensign. Some relevant quotations follow: While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as *unconditional*. [emphasis in original] With scriptural patterns of conditional statements in mind, we note many verses that declare the conditional nature of divine love for us. Examples include: [John 15:10; DC 95:12; John 14:23; Proverbs 8:17; Acts 10:34-35; 1 Nephi 17:40; John 14:21] Understanding that divine love and blessings are not truly 'unconditional' can defend us against common fallacies such as these: 'Since God's love is unconditional, He will love me regardless...'; or 'Since ''God is love,'' He will love me unconditionally, regardless...' These arguments are used by anti-Christs to woo people with deception. Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are conditional -- predicated upon our obedience to eternal law. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.445 / Virus Database: 250 - Release Date: 01/21/2003 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] Conditional divine love
-Geoff- Great post! According to the prophets, then it appears that there are actually two types of love: 1. Divine love 2. Unconditional love They are not one and the same. However, it is true that our Heavenly Father has and exercises both, and that we are commanded to do likewise. Would you agree? Not quite, I don't think. While it is true that God is love, it is not true that Love is God. That is, love is not an overriding or ultimate principle wherein everything and everyone is loved. I believe that unconditional love is nothing more than a linguistic construct. I think it's false as a concept, nonexistent, nonsensical, without meaning, just like sinful God or miserable exaltation are nonsensical and meaningless. All love, even God's love, is conditioned or predicated upon the laws set forth (by God) that govern it. Parents may think the love for their child is boundless and unconditional; but let that child turn against the parents and everything they have stood for and tried to build, and actively seek their destruction, the destruction of their other children, and the desecration of all that the parents consider holy, and the parents, while mourning their child's loss and hoping for his return, are likely to find that their love is conditional after all. In this vein, I don't think we're commanded to exercise unconditional love, which wouldn't even make any sense anyway if that term is an oxymoron. I think we're commanded to love as God loves, but as Elder Nelson pointed out, divine love is not unconditional. We are commanded to forgive all men, and to show forth the love of Christ; but I don't think this means any sort of unconditional love. Admittedly, like all philosophical discussions, this becomes a matter of defition and semantics. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
[ZION] This month's Ensign
Can anyone out there in Utah help me out? I renewed our Ensign subscription a little too late it seems, and we'll be missing the February issues of the Ensign and Friend. I will be happy to send a check to cover the cost of the single issues of both magazines and postage if someone would be willing to pick them up and send them to me. Thanks in advance! Heidi the fair Heidi Page [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] Conditional divine love
Stephen, I guess in order to clear up the semantics issue, we would need to turn to the scriptures and words of the prophets and determine how / when they use the term unconditional love. I had always thought that the term meant we were to love and forgive our fellowmen, no matter what they have done, because they are children of our Heavenly Father - and thus, our brothers and sisters. Does this mean that God (or we, for that matter) condones what they wicked do? No, of course not. Yet doesn't He still love them, despite the bad that they have done? Where are the conditions that limit God's love? Here is the real kicker - does God still love Lucifer? What about the Sons of Perdition? The other question is this: Does divine love encompass the command to forgive all men? Are we to love those who hurt, abuse, and murder us with divine love or unconditional love? I guess what we need are definitions of each term. When I searched through GospeLink 2001 for the words unconditional love, and these are the times they were used by General Authorities: Express unconditional love to one another through word and act. - A. Theodore Tuttle, 1979 address There he found acceptance and affection and unconditional love. - Elder Marion D. Hanks, Conference Report, October 1970 First Questioner: Is it possible to become too subtle with something as simple as the gospel? The Disciple: Indeed it is, and we must ever be aware that this possibility exists. I don't think of the gospel as subtle, however; I think of it as deep and simple. For instance, some might say that what follows is a subtlety: God can love the sinner and hate the sin. When our desires and our actions go against his plans for us, he must be against us and what we are then doing. But that really means that God is always for us. He never regards man with contempt, but regards many of the things we do as contemptible. In the very moment in which Jesus sent Judas away to do his awful deed, He still loved Judas; His disciple whom He had taught unconditional love, who could not love Jesus, nevertheless could not move outside the range of Jesus' love even in betrayal. Some truths take a good deal of pondering, but not because they are complex. Because they are so powerful and cut so deeply, we must truly feel their edgeand more than fleetingly. - Elder Neal A. Maxwell, Desposition of a Disciple His duties have long been galactic, yet He noticed the widow casting in her mite. I am stunned at His perfect, unconditional love of all. Indeed, I stand all amazed at the love Jesus offers me. I thank Him for His discerning way of loving us without controlling us, for never letting the needs of now crowd out the considerations of eternity. - Elder Neal A. Maxwell, Even As I Am This leads us to the process of making covenants and participating in ordinances, which are sources of power as we realize the importance of the Lord's will in our lives and have faith in it. Such faith turns us toward the Savior, his life, and his unconditional love for us. As these truths sink into our hearts, we hear him requiring the sacrifice of a broken heart and contrite spirit. We must give up the ways of the world and accept and do his way. - Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin, Finding Peace in Our Lives Because of his rebellion, Lucifer was cast out and became Satan, the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto [his] voice. (Moses 4:4.) And so this personage who was an angel of God and in authority, even in the presence of God, was removed from the presence of God and his Son. (See DC 76:25.) This caused great sadness in the heavens, for the heavens wept over himhe was Lucifer, a son of the morning. (DC 76:26.) Does this not place some responsibility on the followers of Christ to show concern for loved ones who have lost their way and are shut out from the presence of God? (Moses 6:49.) I know of no better way to do this than to show unconditional love and to help lost souls seek another path. - James E. Faust, Reach Up For The Light Sorry for the long post. Since I have not read Elder Nelson's talk, I do not know if he refutes the concept unconditional love or not. If he doesn't, I guess I am not able to state that this concept is meaningless. I can easily see, however, the difference between divine love and unconditional love. Please let me know your thoughts on this. Your brother, Geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/24/03 02:29PM -Geoff- Great post! According to the prophets, then it appears that there are actually two types of love: 1. Divine love 2. Unconditional love They are not one and the same. However, it is true that our Heavenly Father has and exercises both, and that we are commanded to do likewise. Would you agree? Not quite, I don't think. While it is true that God is love, it is not true that Love is God. That is, love is not an overriding or ultimate
RE: [ZION] Conditional divine love
-Geoff- I guess in order to clear up the semantics issue, we would need to turn to the scriptures and words of the prophets and determine how / when they use the term unconditional love. Agreed. I'm quite sure you'll find the term absent from scripture. However, as you note, other (and recent or current) leaders have used the very term. Yet Elder Nelson says it's false. How to rectify the two? Well, we could try some sort of seniority argument, but I personally think that's baloney. Here's my rectification, fwiw: The term unconditional love is well-known and evokes a certain emotional reaction. People have a sort of gut-level understanding of that feeling. I believe Elder Maxwell and the others who used the term unconditional love were probably attempting to rouse that gut-level reaction, rather than making a philosophical commentary on the nature of divine love. On the other hand, Elder Nelson was very specifically making exactly such a philosophical commentary. For that reason, my resolution is to accept the words of Elder Maxwell and others in the spirit in which I believe they were intended, similar in meaning to what Elder Nelson calls divine love, while accepting Elder Nelson's clear teachings at absolute face value. Here is the real kicker - does God still love Lucifer? What about the Sons of Perdition? Not sure why this is such an issue for many people, though I know it is. I don't pretend to speak for God or how he feels about this or that topic; nevertheless, according to any meaningful scriptural definition of love, it seems clear to me that God does not and in fact cannot love Satan. God is merciful, of course, and since he embodies mercy, he will show to Satan and his followers as much mercy as he can, which basically means confining them to a kingdom of no glory. But love in any true, saving, exalting sense of the word cannot be a trait that Satan evokes in any heart. Revulsion, abhorrence, perhaps pity, even mercy, but not love. The other question is this: Does divine love encompass the command to forgive all men? Are we to love those who hurt, abuse, and murder us with divine love or unconditional love? I assume the two are intimately related, though I don't pretend to understand the connection exactly. Interesting discussion. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Important Questions
But Paul, come on now, be honest. how do you REALLY feel? Noj Paul Osborne wrote: Gee-wizz, John. I thought we weren't suppose to talk about Iraq? Remember the last flame war we had? Well, since we are about to go at it again I will only make one little itty bitty comment which is that I hope we bomb the hell out Iraq and roll our tanks right into the palaces of that madman in Baghdad. Enough said. Now back to lurking. :-) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Important questions
I concur, but we have to do more than get Saddam out of their. We have to have a different form of government, not another dictator, even one who was on our side. Jon Gerald Smith wrote: Well, I hope we don't have to bomb Iraq. I hope we can get Saddam out of there without having to injure a single Iraqi individual, or risk our own troops. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love
Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are conditional -- predicated upon our obedience to eternal law. Stephen, this statement seems to negate your earlier idea that love is conditional. It seems to me that Love from our Father and our Savior is unconditional and as part of that they want us to receive as much as we can, but no more blessing than we can handle. The blessing may be conditional, but surely not the love. If Elder Nelson said any different than that I would be disappointed, but I will read the article. George - Original Message - From: Stephen Beecroft [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 9:32 AM Subject: [ZION] Conditional divine love Some time ago on this very list (probably its incarnation on zilker.net or some other pre-Topica server), a rather heated discussion -- imagine that! -- arose regarding, of all topics, God's love. Some of us claimed that the scriptures clearly teach that God's love is conditional, given to some more than to others, and dependent in its intensity on the actions and heart of the recipient; while others steadfastly maintained that God's love is unconditional, that he loves the rankest, vilest sinner just as much as he loves the most virtuous of men and women. I thus find it interesting that this month's Ensign includes an article by Elder Nelson extolling the *conditional* nature of God's love. I definitely recommend the article to all, which starts on page 20 of the February 2003 Ensign. Some relevant quotations follow: While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as *unconditional*. [emphasis in original] With scriptural patterns of conditional statements in mind, we note many verses that declare the conditional nature of divine love for us. Examples include: [John 15:10; DC 95:12; John 14:23; Proverbs 8:17; Acts 10:34-35; 1 Nephi 17:40; John 14:21] Understanding that divine love and blessings are not truly 'unconditional' can defend us against common fallacies such as these: 'Since God's love is unconditional, He will love me regardless...'; or 'Since ''God is love,'' He will love me unconditionally, regardless...' These arguments are used by anti-Christs to woo people with deception. Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are conditional -- predicated upon our obedience to eternal law. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love
I read this article last night. Wasn't it wonderful?! If you haven't yet read it, get off this silly list and go read it right now. Jon - Original Message - From: Stephen Beecroft [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 11:32 AM Subject: [ZION] Conditional divine love Some time ago on this very list (probably its incarnation on zilker.net or some other pre-Topica server), a rather heated discussion -- imagine that! -- arose regarding, of all topics, God's love. Some of us claimed that the scriptures clearly teach that God's love is conditional, given to some more than to others, and dependent in its intensity on the actions and heart of the recipient; while others steadfastly maintained that God's love is unconditional, that he loves the rankest, vilest sinner just as much as he loves the most virtuous of men and women. I thus find it interesting that this month's Ensign includes an article by Elder Nelson extolling the *conditional* nature of God's love. I definitely recommend the article to all, which starts on page 20 of the February 2003 Ensign. Some relevant quotations follow: While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as *unconditional*. [emphasis in original] With scriptural patterns of conditional statements in mind, we note many verses that declare the conditional nature of divine love for us. Examples include: [John 15:10; DC 95:12; John 14:23; Proverbs 8:17; Acts 10:34-35; 1 Nephi 17:40; John 14:21] Understanding that divine love and blessings are not truly 'unconditional' can defend us against common fallacies such as these: 'Since God's love is unconditional, He will love me regardless...'; or 'Since ''God is love,'' He will love me unconditionally, regardless...' These arguments are used by anti-Christs to woo people with deception. Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are conditional -- predicated upon our obedience to eternal law. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love
Have youse guys read the article? Jon - Original Message - From: George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 6:38 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are conditional -- predicated upon our obedience to eternal law. Stephen, this statement seems to negate your earlier idea that love is conditional. It seems to me that Love from our Father and our Savior is unconditional and as part of that they want us to receive as much as we can, but no more blessing than we can handle. The blessing may be conditional, but surely not the love. If Elder Nelson said any different than that I would be disappointed, but I will read the article. George - Original Message - From: Stephen Beecroft [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 9:32 AM Subject: [ZION] Conditional divine love Some time ago on this very list (probably its incarnation on zilker.net or some other pre-Topica server), a rather heated discussion -- imagine that! -- arose regarding, of all topics, God's love. Some of us claimed that the scriptures clearly teach that God's love is conditional, given to some more than to others, and dependent in its intensity on the actions and heart of the recipient; while others steadfastly maintained that God's love is unconditional, that he loves the rankest, vilest sinner just as much as he loves the most virtuous of men and women. I thus find it interesting that this month's Ensign includes an article by Elder Nelson extolling the *conditional* nature of God's love. I definitely recommend the article to all, which starts on page 20 of the February 2003 Ensign. Some relevant quotations follow: While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as *unconditional*. [emphasis in original] With scriptural patterns of conditional statements in mind, we note many verses that declare the conditional nature of divine love for us. Examples include: [John 15:10; DC 95:12; John 14:23; Proverbs 8:17; Acts 10:34-35; 1 Nephi 17:40; John 14:21] Understanding that divine love and blessings are not truly 'unconditional' can defend us against common fallacies such as these: 'Since God's love is unconditional, He will love me regardless...'; or 'Since ''God is love,'' He will love me unconditionally, regardless...' These arguments are used by anti-Christs to woo people with deception. Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are conditional -- predicated upon our obedience to eternal law. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love
The old argument seems to be flaming again. What about the passage in the Bible that says, Esau have I hated. Even if it means, loved less, isn't that conditional? Stacy. At 07:13 PM 01/24/2003 -0500, you wrote: Have youse guys read the article? Jon - Original Message - From: George Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 6:38 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are conditional -- predicated upon our obedience to eternal law. Stephen, this statement seems to negate your earlier idea that love is conditional. It seems to me that Love from our Father and our Savior is unconditional and as part of that they want us to receive as much as we can, but no more blessing than we can handle. The blessing may be conditional, but surely not the love. If Elder Nelson said any different than that I would be disappointed, but I will read the article. George - Original Message - From: Stephen Beecroft [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 9:32 AM Subject: [ZION] Conditional divine love Some time ago on this very list (probably its incarnation on zilker.net or some other pre-Topica server), a rather heated discussion -- imagine that! -- arose regarding, of all topics, God's love. Some of us claimed that the scriptures clearly teach that God's love is conditional, given to some more than to others, and dependent in its intensity on the actions and heart of the recipient; while others steadfastly maintained that God's love is unconditional, that he loves the rankest, vilest sinner just as much as he loves the most virtuous of men and women. I thus find it interesting that this month's Ensign includes an article by Elder Nelson extolling the *conditional* nature of God's love. I definitely recommend the article to all, which starts on page 20 of the February 2003 Ensign. Some relevant quotations follow: While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as *unconditional*. [emphasis in original] With scriptural patterns of conditional statements in mind, we note many verses that declare the conditional nature of divine love for us. Examples include: [John 15:10; DC 95:12; John 14:23; Proverbs 8:17; Acts 10:34-35; 1 Nephi 17:40; John 14:21] Understanding that divine love and blessings are not truly 'unconditional' can defend us against common fallacies such as these: 'Since God's love is unconditional, He will love me regardless...'; or 'Since ''God is love,'' He will love me unconditionally, regardless...' These arguments are used by anti-Christs to woo people with deception. Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are conditional -- predicated upon our obedience to eternal law. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.445 / Virus Database: 250 - Release Date: 01/21/2003 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] Conditional divine love
-Elder Nelson- Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are conditional -- predicated upon our obedience to eternal law. -George- Stephen, this statement seems to negate your earlier idea that love is conditional. Not sure why you say that. Elder Nelson's sentence that you quoted above plainly reads, The full flower of divine love [...] [is] conditional. Other phrases that I quoted before include: [D]ivine love [...] cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional. [M]any verses [...] declare the conditional nature of divine love for us. [D]ivine love and blessings are not truly 'unconditional' It seems to me that Love from our Father and our Savior is unconditional Elder Nelson appears not to agree. The blessing may be conditional, but surely not the love. Elder Nelson does not make that distinction. If Elder Nelson said any different than that I would be disappointed, but I will read the article. Hope you enjoy it. Please don't be disappointed, though. It might turn out that he's just restating in different words something you already believe. If he really is teaching something different, then rejoice that we have leaders who can teach us such important fine points. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] Conditional divine love
I can't wait to read the article. I can't believe the guy agrees with me on this one. Stacy. At 11:09 PM 01/24/2003 +, you wrote: -Geoff- I guess in order to clear up the semantics issue, we would need to turn to the scriptures and words of the prophets and determine how / when they use the term unconditional love. Agreed. I'm quite sure you'll find the term absent from scripture. However, as you note, other (and recent or current) leaders have used the very term. Yet Elder Nelson says it's false. How to rectify the two? Well, we could try some sort of seniority argument, but I personally think that's baloney. Here's my rectification, fwiw: The term unconditional love is well-known and evokes a certain emotional reaction. People have a sort of gut-level understanding of that feeling. I believe Elder Maxwell and the others who used the term unconditional love were probably attempting to rouse that gut-level reaction, rather than making a philosophical commentary on the nature of divine love. On the other hand, Elder Nelson was very specifically making exactly such a philosophical commentary. For that reason, my resolution is to accept the words of Elder Maxwell and others in the spirit in which I believe they were intended, similar in meaning to what Elder Nelson calls divine love, while accepting Elder Nelson's clear teachings at absolute face value. Here is the real kicker - does God still love Lucifer? What about the Sons of Perdition? Not sure why this is such an issue for many people, though I know it is. I don't pretend to speak for God or how he feels about this or that topic; nevertheless, according to any meaningful scriptural definition of love, it seems clear to me that God does not and in fact cannot love Satan. God is merciful, of course, and since he embodies mercy, he will show to Satan and his followers as much mercy as he can, which basically means confining them to a kingdom of no glory. But love in any true, saving, exalting sense of the word cannot be a trait that Satan evokes in any heart. Revulsion, abhorrence, perhaps pity, even mercy, but not love. The other question is this: Does divine love encompass the command to forgive all men? Are we to love those who hurt, abuse, and murder us with divine love or unconditional love? I assume the two are intimately related, though I don't pretend to understand the connection exactly. Interesting discussion. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.445 / Virus Database: 250 - Release Date: 01/21/2003 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
