Re: [ZION] Vote Now!
the gospel will be condemned to the spirit prison until we can figure out the mess that will be caused. We as members of God's church must oppose such efforts. Harold Stuart // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Musical Instruments Survey
I'm an organist and pianist. Harold Stuart On Mar 19, 2004, at 1:36 PM, John W. Redelfs wrote: How many of you play a musical instrument? How well do you play? I'm curious about the musical makeup of the Zion list. John W. Redelfs sings well, plays the piano fairly, and the violin poorly. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Gay Marriage Quicksand
John wrote: You can all move to Alaska. We already have such an amendment in our Constitution. --JWR Harold replies: Or, you can move to California. We have such an amendment too. :) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Federal Marriage Amendment
On Mar 4, 2004, at 4:11 PM, Jonathan Scott wrote: Neither this Constitution or the constitution of any State, Translation: Sorry, activist judges, you have to follow these rules. nor state or federal law, Translation: Sorry, Congress and state legislatures, you can't change this either. shall be construed Translation: You can't read this to promote your society destroying cancers. to require that marital status Translation: Marriage says what this amendment says it does. No less, no more. or the legal incidents thereof Translation: Marriage is special. Hands off. be conferred upon unmarried couples or groups. Anything other than marriage between man and wife is not marriage. Polygamy, polyandry, homosexual relationships, etc., are not marriage. Unless people are married, they can't get the benefits of marriage. Sorry, but can someone tell me what this part means? -- Jonathan Scott Harold Stuart // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Is God's Love Unconditional?
On Nov 4, 2003, at 7:47 PM, George Cobabe wrote: Ron, You may be right. As a matter of fact I agree with you. However, Elder Nelson does not. He says that God's love is conditional upon righteousness. I think this is a difficult point. Certain aspects of God's love are without question unconditional. For example, everyone is resurrected, no matter how badly they flunk the test of mortality. It's also interesting that even those in the Telestial Kingdom receive some degree of glory. On the other hand, it is possible to get the Lord very angry with you. Martin Harris comes to mind, for example. He failed to keep his covenants, and it was a long time before the Lord forgave him. Martin lost many of the blessings he otherwise would have had had he properly maintained the 118 pages, but his repentance was sincere. He was then permitted to hear the voice of God and see an angel. It's also true that there is a limited number of times one can repent of adultery. Clearly the atonement is not a blank check to commit sin. Harold Stuart // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Catholics Mormons unite
On Nov 1, 2003, at 8:08 AM, Paul Osborne wrote: What is going on here? What about the two churches spoken of in the Book of Mormon, i.e. the Church of the Lamb and the Church of the Devil? I guess no one believes it anymore. The Church sure has changed. Paul, I'm not convinced that much has changed. Let's take a look at some examples: 1: The land on which the Cathedral of the Madeline in Salt Lake stands was donated by the Church. The same goes for a Jewish synagogue. 2: The LDS Christmas Carol Far, Far Away On Judea's Plains was written for a Catholic mass held in the Saint George Tabernacle. The choir was LDS, and their director trained them to sing the Latin mass and composed the carol for the occasion. 3: Before the advent of LDS Humanitarian Services, the Church worked with Catholic Charities to help alleviate famine in Africa. There are many more examples, as well. Harold Stuart // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Roll Call
I'm still here as well. I mostly lurk nowadays, but I'll pop up occasionally, especially if a Signaturus shows up... Harold On Oct 30, 2003, at 5:27 PM, Paul Osborne wrote: Of course I'm here, John. I've been really busy working on my Book of Abraham apologetics. Also, mankind (starting with Adam) has only been on the earth for 6,000 years and I beat Gary Smith really good in that last debate. When it comes to the teachings of the prophets it just goes to show that all of us are willing to take what we want and ignore what we don't want. ;-)) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] wacky viruses
On Thursday, August 21, 2003, at 03:06 PM, Jon Spencer wrote: Email is being sent out using my email name, but I did not send it, nor did it originate from my machine. The headers prove it. Someone on a different machine has your email address stored in their address book. The virus is using that entry to forge your email address. The real problem is that internet protocols originated in the days when you could trust other programmers. Harold Stuart // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Temple Defilement
On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 08:38 PM, George Cobabe wrote: No! There is not one of us truly worthy to be in the temple, as in the presence of God. The atonement makes up for our individual problems and I am sure would keep the Temple pure for those who do their best to attend in faith. George Well said, George. Look, folks, the Lord is our judge, and he is never as judgmental as we mere mortals. We are quick to judge, slow to forgive, stubborn, and rebellious. We also get angry too fast. We had better repent, and soon. I work in the Oakland Temple. I've worked there almost 13 years. I've easily entered that sacred edifice over 500 times. Every time when I reach for my wallet to get my recommend, I ask myself if I am really worthy to enter. Some weeks I am more comfortable with the idea than others. I keep going to the temple, however, because I know I'm really trying. I'm trying to control my anger, to obey, to yield to the will of the Lord, to forgive quickly, and to let the Lord judge. I keep the letter of the temple recommend questions reasonably well, and am trying to keep the spirit of them as well. Perfect? I am far from it. I am planning to get there someday, although I'm not looking forward to the process. Adversity is tough. So, what level of wickedness does it take to not be worthy to enter the temple? It's spelled out clearly in the temple recommend questions. If you are keeping the letter of the temple recommend questions reasonably well, go to the temple. When you have occasional minor lapses, repent and go to the temple. If you have a major lapse (such as failure to tithe or keep the Word of Wisdom, law of chastity violations, etc.), stop going to the temple. Go to your bishop instead, and fix the problem. In all cases, major or minor, allow the Lord to forgive you, and please, forgive yourself. After that, go back to the temple. Harold Stuart // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Constitutional Losses
This is probably one of the most poorly reported prophecies of Joseph Smith. We need to remember that the Prophet gave this statement before the days of any reasonably accurate recording device, including shorthand. As a result, the basic facts may vary widely. The basis of the prophecy, however, is pretty plain. We are in for very hard times, and our basic liberties will be under increasingly greater attack. Harold Stuart On Tuesday, May 27, 2003, at 08:57 PM, Steven Montgomery wrote: At 09:32 PM 5/27/2003, you wrote: Doesn't prophesy say that the Elders will save it? Jon There are different versions and remembrances of Joseph Smith's statement (Given on July 19th 1840). Orson Hyde, in recalling Joseph Smith's words, put it this way: I believe he said something like this--that the time would come when the Constitution and the country would be in danger of overthrow; and said he: 'If the Constitution be saved at all, it will be by the Elders of this Church.' I believe this is about the language, an nearly as I can recollect it. (See JD 6: 152) If Hyde's version is correct then this makes the prophecy conditional. However, to be fair, President Ezra Taft Benson liked the version recorded by Martha Jane Knowleton, which is more explicit that the Constitution will be saved. Knowleton's version is this: Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground; and when the Constitution is upon the brink of ruin, this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean; and they shall bear the constitution away from the very verge of destruction. I say, how can the Constitution be saved by the Elders of Israel when many of them don't even know its basic precepts? For instance, how many Elders know the reason the Founders setup the Electoral College the way they did? Or the reason that originally, before the 17th amendment, that Senators were elected by State legislatures? -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is no accident, then, that so many who gathered at Philadelphia to declare independence and a decade later to draft a constitution were men who had apprenticed themselves to Thucydides, Plato, Aristotle, Polybius, and Cicero, and who could debate at length on the various constitutional forms of the classical world before they chose one for the new American nation. We owe our very existence as a people in great part to classical learning.T. L. Simmons // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Are any of you having problems?
There hasn't been any traffic for the past two days. We're losing our touch... Harold // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Tom Murphy's Statement (was Re: LDS Writer Expects to Be Excommunicat
for the process by which this theory can be proven, he has already decided that his theory is fact, and is proclaiming it to the world. Using the principles of science here would show that he has understanding, rather than knowledge, of the subject. I refuse to misrepresent the evidence to please them. Tom seems to understand misrepresentation of evidence very well. I fear that many of these people are going to find out the hard way that the devil abandons his servants and leaves them to twist in the wind. Harold Stuart // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] LDS Writer Expects to Be Excommunicated
On Saturday, November 30, 2002, at 09:44 PM, Jim Cobabe wrote: Saturday, November 30, 2002 BY PATTY HENETZ THE ASSOCIATED PRESS A graduate student at the University of Washington says he likely will be excommunicated next week for articles he has written questioning the validity of the Book of Mormon. Good riddance. Once more the Signaturi raise their fetid little heads. This time they are trying to use hard science to discredit the Book of Mormon. Sigh... I've actually read this guy's paper. It's sad he doesn't use his brain for better purposes. Let's see what we do and don't know about the Nephites and Lamanites: 1: They were technically not Jews, i.e. they were not of the tribe of Judah. I know the tribes inter-married, but it's hard to compare apples and oranges. This fact is conveniently missing from the paper. 2: They were relatively small in number for many years, and grew at an amazing rate. Jaradite names became very common in their culture (look at what Alma named his sons), and their weights and measures system may have also been derived from the Jaradites (look at what their weights and measures were named, and cross-reference the book of Ether. It's interesting.) In my opinion, they probably inter-married with the peoples that were already here. Making assumptions about their genetic makeup is just plain stupid. 3: We don't know where they lived. Many people believe Mezo-America, others believe upstate New York. Still others believe South America. I hold one of these theories personally, but it doesn't matter a bit. Assuming the Lamanites to be the ancestors of today's American Indians is foolish, given what we don't know. It's hard to find good data if you don't know where to look. There are several other questions that could be raised about his assumptions, but let's look at other things the publicity hound here is ignoring: 1: 11 witnesses saw the plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated. Three of them had a personal visitation from an angel, and heard the voice of God declaring that everything was on the up and up. All of the three died professing their testimonies, and none of the 11 ever denied what they had seen. 2: The Book of Mormon bears the hallmarks of an ancient book. Go read the FARMS web site for more details. 3: Millions of people around the world have read the book, and have received powerful witnesses from God as to its divinity. I am one of them. Beware of the latest scientific theory. We don't know everything about genetics and DNA. We do know that the Signaturi are evil people that are hell-bent to destroy the church. They are not objective investigators. They have many times bent, twisted, or invented evidence to suit their own needs. One needs look no further than their patron saint, Mark Hoffman, for examples of their methods. This paper will be thoroughly discredited within the next few years. I pray for those who propagate and believe this stuff. Harold Stuart // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] LDS Writer Expects to Be Excommunicated
Just a couple more things... Our intrepid Signaturus writes: There were no Lamanites prior to c. 1828 This cannot be shown from his data. As I said in my last post, he has no idea what the Lamanite genome looks like. He is only guessing. It is not likely to be what he thinks it is. and dark skin is not a physical trait of God's malediction. This can't be shown from his data either. This man does not understand the workings of God very well. God's curses often work to the benefit of those cursed. Native Americans do not need to accept Christianity or the BoMor to know their own history. And how does he show this??? This guy is a scientist? He acts more like a stump preacher. The BoMor emerged from Joseph Smith's own struggles with his God. The only thing he has said that is true so far. Unfortunately, it is a half-truth. Yes, Joseph had struggles with God that lead him to ask. The rest, however, can't be explained away as easily. Mormons need to look inward for spiritual validation and cease efforts to remake Native Americans in their own image. And here we have a Sig that needs to stop trying to project his own internal struggles on the rest of us. Perhaps if he really read the book he is attacking... We have here the sad case of someone with an axe to grind. He has taken a limited set of data, generalized it excessively, and stretched it to prove his theory. Do I feel strongly about the Signaturi? Yes. They nearly got me about 20 years ago, and it was only by a miracle that I survived. This is not hyperbole. I don't relate the experience often, but suffice it to say that I learned enough about the devil and his minions to last me the rest of my life. Please, beware these people. They, like the master they serve, want all men to be miserable like unto themselves. Harold Stuart // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
On Friday, November 8, 2002, at 06:18 PM, John W. Redelfs wrote: I agree with this. Next time you are in sacrament meeting, evaluate each speaker. Ask yourself how effectively he used the scriptures in his talk. Give him a score on a 1 to 5 spectrum: 1=poor, 2=fair, 3=average, 4=good, 5=outstanding. Do this for each speaker and find the average for the meeting. If your ward is anything like mine, the average is pathetic. I just assume that the reason they don't use the scriptures in their talks is because they don't study them daily at home. Even temple attending saints frequently get up in meeting and speak for 10 or 15 minutes without once making a reference to the scriptures. Sometimes you are given a topic that doesn't lend itself to lots of scriptural references. Recently I gave a talk on How parents can help their children live the standards in For The Strength Of Youth. This one's difficult, although I put a couple of references in. An important topic, nonetheless. If I'm teaching, however, I use the scriptures whenever and however I can. It is my opinion that the scriptures should always be used to make the points in the lesson, the opinion of the teacher is irrelevant. If you can't prove it from the scriptures, don't say it at all (unless you clearly say that it is your opinion only). Harold Stuart / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] music
On Sunday, October 6, 2002, at 08:13 AM, Paul Osborne wrote: (JWR says) But I think they could have found better music for it. The tune doesn't measure to the lyrics. Of course that is just my opinion, and it is just a matter of taste. Is something wrong with me? I really don't care for the music of quite a few of the LDS hymns. Some of them come off as whiny and annoy my senses as I try to worship and I actually put the book down. My wife feels the same way so maybe I'm not alone in this thing. I would be relieved to see the hymnbook reduced by about 50% and enjoy the balance just fine. Music is an art form, and is therefore subject to varying tastes. The hymn tune you find annoying may be extremely uplifting to others. I am personally very glad that my tastes were not used to choose the hymns in the hymnbook. As for I Believe In Christ, I've heard several different settings of the words. I personally believe that the John Longhurst setting that is in our hymnbook was chosen so that the saints would sing all of the words of the hymn. In this case I think the hymnbook committee felt that the words were more important than the setting. Speaking of the Longhurst setting, many years ago I was the organist for the priesthood leadership session of an area conference. I take great care with the music I play for such a meeting, and carefully plan what I am going to plan when the visiting authorities enter the room. Usually I play I Am A Child Of God, as it speaks the basic message of the gospel well. For this conference our visiting authorities were President Monson and Elder Nelson. Our stake center was filled to capacity, and the usual ambient noise of the saints meeting in gladness was present in great abundance (in other words, it was NOISY!). As it came time to have the authorities enter the room, I carefully started to modulate into a good key for I Am A Child Of God, and starting playing reverent chords (i.e. filler music) to bridge until they entered. Once people in the room started to rise I started playing, and to my amazement I started playing the Longhurst setting of I Believe In Christ, something I had not planned to play. The effect, combined with the entrance of two prophets of the Lord, was electric. The room instantly became silent and filled with the Spirit. There was no sound in the room other than my music. The felling was truly awesome. I started concentrating on my playing, since I had not planned what I was playing, and the next thing I knew President Monson was standing at the side of the console, talking to me and thanking me for the reverent music (and lauding my mother for making me practice, she is indeed a patient woman :) ). I'm glad I was receptive to the Spirit that day. The right music for the right occasion really did add to the meeting. The only other place I have played where I have felt the Spirit as strongly is in the waiting area of the Oakland Temple. I know this: it isn't me or my music that brings the Spirit, but music can truly help us worship the Lord. Harold Stuart / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
