Re: [ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love Unconditional?)
.> > I always thought it was "twice and you're out" -- that is, you can > repent of adultery once, but not twice. I suppose this is based on D&C > 42:25-26: "But he that has committed adultery and repents with all his > heart, and forsaketh it, and doeth it no more, thou shalt forgive; But > if he doeth it again, he shall not be forgiven, but shall be cast out." >. I have had occasion to consider this scripture, and interpret it quite differently. It teaches an important principle, but not the one proposed here, IMHO. It does NOT read: But he that has committed adultery ONCE and repents with all his heart, and forsaketh it, and doeth it no more, thou shalt forgive; But if he doeth it TWICE, he shall not be forgiven, but shall be cast out." You have to read it that way to get the result that a person can only be forgiven once for adultery. (And even then it has a tortured logic, because how can the first repentance be acceptable if the specific conditions have, by definition, not been met? But more about that later). In my personal opinion this scripture is teaching the rather obvious principle that if the person goes back into this sort of serious sinful behavior that person did not truly repent of the first instance. Notice the "forsaketh it, and doeth it no more" condition on the first repentance. The second or subsequent adultery makes a mockery of that. So in consideration of forgiveness for subsequent adultery the earlier sinful behavior comes into play. The person comes before the Lord (and any appropriate disciplinary council represent the Lord) with the whole burden of ALL instances of adultery (or any other serious sin) when dealing with that subsequent sin, because the first or prior instances were not truly forgiven, nor could they be, because the conditions of the first repentance were not met. This is how I have understood and taught this scripture in a number of very real disciplinary situations including those where I was warning an offender about the consequences of falling back into transgression. I am not conversant with any actual numerical melt down on the possibility of repentance from adultery. Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love Unconditional?)
Stephen Beecroft wrote: I always thought it was "twice and you're out" -- that is, you can repent of adultery once, but not twice. I suppose this is based on D&C 42:25-26: "But he that has committed adultery and repents with all his heart, and forsaketh it, and doeth it no more, thou shalt forgive; But if he doeth it again, he shall not be forgiven, but shall be cast out." Grampa Bill comments: Not at all certain of this, but it appears that this might be instruction rather than doctrine. That is the Lord here instructs Church Leaders how to handle recidivist adulterers... cast them out or excommunicate them. It is not offered as doctrine, binding the Lord's hands as to whether they can ever obtain forgiveness from Him. But I may well be wrong in my understanding of this passage. Love y'all, Grampa Bill in Savannah // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love Unconditional?)
> -Original Message- > From: Stephen Beecroft [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 12:09 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love > Unconditional?) > > > > John W. Redelfs wrote: > > > > > -Harold- > > It's also true that there is a limited number of times one can > > repent of adultery. > > -JWR- > > I've heard this before, but I was challenged on it by the wife > > of our mission president. I tried to prove the "three times and > > you are out" rule, and I was unable to. Perhaps you can do > > better than I can. --JWR > > I always thought it was "twice and you're out" -- that is, you can > repent of adultery once, but not twice. I suppose this is based on D&C > 42:25-26: "But he that has committed adultery and repents with all his > heart, and forsaketh it, and doeth it no more, thou shalt forgive; But > if he doeth it again, he shall not be forgiven, but shall be cast out." > > The reason for this is a bit fuzzier. As it was explained to me at the > time, it has to do with repentence from covenant-breaking (which is > scripturally known as adultery). The idea seems to be that one can > forsake his covenants one time without truly understanding what he is > doing, but that doing so again constitutes a denial of the Holy Ghost. > I know of no exact scriptural justification for this idea of repentence, > though. Just what I was told many years ago.<< The scripture above deliniates how the the church organization should deal with adultery, IMO. Bear in mind that denying the Holy Ghost transforms one into a candidate for a bunk with the Sons of Perdition. And, we've been told that the Sons will be FEW IN NUMBER -- as few as the fingers on one's hand. This suggests strongly that two-plus adulterers DO NOT deny the Holy Ghost, nor are they candidates for SOP status. Obviously, someone was taught very false doctrine. One must have a pretty perfect knowledge of the Holy Ghost before one could be judged guilty of denying it. None of us here have so perfect a knowledge of the HG that we could be found guilty of of denying it, for instance. Joseph Smith may have had such a knowledge, however. So I guess he might be a candidate for SOP-hood if he committed adultery twice. But a more important question: Why do people on ZION focus so intently on such things -- judging others in particular -- anyway? Who authorizes us to hold people to "artificial standards" that may or may not have anything whatsoever to do with the gospel Christ taught and can not be applied uniformly across the church organization? What useful purpose is served? RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love Unconditional?)
-Ron- > But a more important question: Why do people on ZION focus so > intently on such things -- judging others in particular -- > anyway? Who authorizes us to hold people to "artificial > standards" that may or may not have anything whatsoever to do > with the gospel Christ taught and can not be applied uniformly > across the church organization? What useful purpose is served? I'm certainly not qualified to speak for anyone on this list other than myself. In my case, my intent was not to judge others or hold anyone to standards, artifical or otherwise. It was simply an attempt to address John's challenge to substantiate what he called a "three strikes and you're out" rule. The useful purpose being served is, I suppose, the clarification of doctrinal misunderstanding and the building of friendship and fellowship through conversation. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love Unconditional?)
-Grampa Bill- > Not at all certain of this, but it appears that this might be > instruction rather than doctrine. In this matter, I would be much more inclined to trust the understanding of a bishop/former bishop than my own. (Especially since my understanding of this principle is, as I mentioned, pretty shaky to begin with.) Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love Unconditional?)
Ron Scott wrote: The scripture above deliniates how the the church organization should deal with adultery, IMO. Bear in mind that denying the Holy Ghost transforms one into a candidate for a bunk with the Sons of Perdition. And, we've been told that the Sons will be FEW IN NUMBER -- as few as the fingers on one's hand. I've heard this for year, but I suspect that it is folk doctrine. Can anyone actually authentic it with references to scripture or the utterances of the Presidents of the Church? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love Unconditional?)
> -Original Message- > From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 6:42 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love > Unconditional?) > > > Ron Scott wrote: > >The scripture above deliniates how the the church organization > should deal > >with adultery, IMO. Bear in mind that denying the Holy Ghost > transforms one > >into a candidate for a bunk with the Sons of Perdition. And, we've been > >told that the Sons will be FEW IN NUMBER -- as few as the > fingers on one's > >hand. > > I've heard this for year, but I suspect that it is folk doctrine. Can > anyone actually authentic it with references to scripture or the > utterances > of the Presidents of the Church? --JWR<< Sure. Just as soon as I finish running down your request on GBH and unconditional love. What is this, a test? Your perverse way of getting me to read the scriptures and conference addresses (Mel will be proud of you, John. And, you know to whom he talks)? But if you've heard the SOP described that way for years, why don't you run it down yourself. You've got the same access I have to all the church infobases. Moreover, I think you misled me John when you claimed the volume on ZION was down. Are we having fun yet? Ron // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love Unconditional?)
I don't believe the sons of perdition will be few in number. I believe we have sufficient scriptures to prove otherwise, notwithstanding many will go telestial. The people that go telestial will still have to repent in order for that to be done. I've seen some people who would never accept Jesus under any circumstances. These people wish to live in their sins. Aren't I right in suggesting that anyone who wishes to live through eternity with their sins will go to perdition? Stacy. At 07:01 PM 11/05/2003 -0500, you wrote: > -Original Message- > From: John W. Redelfs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 6:42 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love > Unconditional?) > > > Ron Scott wrote: > >The scripture above deliniates how the the church organization > should deal > >with adultery, IMO. Bear in mind that denying the Holy Ghost > transforms one > >into a candidate for a bunk with the Sons of Perdition. And, we've been > >told that the Sons will be FEW IN NUMBER -- as few as the > fingers on one's > >hand. > > I've heard this for year, but I suspect that it is folk doctrine. Can > anyone actually authentic it with references to scripture or the > utterances > of the Presidents of the Church? --JWR<< Sure. Just as soon as I finish running down your request on GBH and unconditional love. What is this, a test? Your perverse way of getting me to read the scriptures and conference addresses (Mel will be proud of you, John. And, you know to whom he talks)? But if you've heard the SOP described that way for years, why don't you run it down yourself. You've got the same access I have to all the church infobases. Moreover, I think you misled me John when you claimed the volume on ZION was down. Are we having fun yet? Ron // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love Unconditional?)
> -Original Message- > From: Stacy Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 6:42 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love > Unconditional?) > > > I don't believe the sons of perdition will be few in number. I > believe we > have sufficient scriptures to prove otherwise, notwithstanding > many will go > telestial. The people that go telestial will still have to > repent in order > for that to be done. I've seen some people who would never accept Jesus > under any circumstances. These people wish to live in their > sins. Aren't > I right in suggesting that anyone who wishes to live through > eternity with > their sins will go to perdition? > > Stacy. You are not right. About anything listed above. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love Unconditional?)
Boy o Boy, that is certainly a response designed to continue discussion. It is interesting that the best you can offer is a complete denial that Stacy had anything useful to say and without and justification on your part. Not even a disclaimer that you uinderstand it differently, but jsut a dismissal. There are so many things that are just "obviously" bad and wrong aren't there. Most of which can be dismissed as easily as you have her questions, unless of course one wants to think it through and perhaps come up with a more useful response. I, of course, with this response can be accused of doing the very thing I condemn in your response. George - Original Message - From: "Ron Scott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 2:15 AM Subject: RE: [ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love Unconditional?) > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Stacy Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 6:42 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [ZION] Repentance from adultery (was: RE: Is God's Love > > Unconditional?) > > > > > > I don't believe the sons of perdition will be few in number. I > > believe we > > have sufficient scriptures to prove otherwise, notwithstanding > > many will go > > telestial. The people that go telestial will still have to > > repent in order > > for that to be done. I've seen some people who would never accept Jesus > > under any circumstances. These people wish to live in their > > sins. Aren't > > I right in suggesting that anyone who wishes to live through > > eternity with > > their sins will go to perdition? > > > > Stacy. > > You are not right. About anything listed above. > > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
