Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
Sorry, you're right. The incident happened in Colombia (not Columbia), but Betancourt was from Venezuela. Steven Montgomery wrote: > At 12:25 AM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote: > One of the > >alleged witnesses to hearing Castro claim he was a Communist was supposed > >to be > >Rómulo Betancourt of Colombia, but when Betancourt found out the US press was > >claiming this, he hotly denied it. > > First, Betancourt was from Venezuela, not Columbia. Second, why should we > believe Betancourt? Why should we believe JBS material? Why do you always neglect to point out that Cuba *did* elect democrat governments, but they were always co-opted by US industrial interests with the backing of the military (Cuba, Nicaragua and Panama are the countries where the term "gunboat diplomacy" was invented, and this doesn't reflect well on the US's early venture into true imperialism -- fortunately J. Reuben Clark, Jr., an elder in Zion, helped nip this in the bud, and the modern-day quasi-imperium is far more benign than it would have been had Teddy Roosevelt had his way completely). I've never seen that in any JBS literature. It's as if Cuba's history starts with the Cuban Revolution when Castro came down out of the hills around Santiago and Santa Cruz. That Castro was anti-US, even viscerally hateful of the US, is well-known and not in dispute. He saw revolution as the only way to break the endless pattern of Cubans electing democratic governments only to have them subverted into puppet regimes of US agricultural interests and organized crime figures. But painting him in ideological colours oversimplifies Cuban history and dismisses the sins of the U.S. in the matter, right back to the blowing up of the Maine in Havana Harbour. You want a conspiracy theory? Look into the role of William Randolph Hearst, the media baron (and the inventor, according to some, of "yellow journalism"). -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
Marc writes: > Again, even if this is true, what's the point? Cuba could have developed al> ong > stable, democratic lines, but the US prevented it. Which is exactely the point made in Quigley's, _Tragedy and Hope_ and Skousen's, _The Naked Capitalist_, Gary Allen's, _None Dare Call It Conspiracy_ and many other book. Since Gadianton Robbers based in the United States played a major role in financing and supporting the Bolshevik Revolution (See Anthony Sutton's, _Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution_), it is not surprising to these same Gadianton Robbers playing a major role in bringing (and keeping) Castro to power: Fidel Castro's Climb to Power by William P. Hoar Fidel Castro's dictatorship in Cuba, contended Senator J. William Fulbright to President John F. Kennedy in March 1961, is a "thorn in the flesh, but it is not a dagger in the heart." Yet through U.S. actions, which helped put Castro in control in Havana, then ensured that he would be strong enough to hold that power, U.S. Presidents -- including, most recently, Bill Clinton -- have had to deal with the communist dictator of Cuba, who became much more than an irritation. Early Revolutionary Days Born in 1928 to a sugar cane contractor, Fidel Castro demonstrated an early affection for power, studying Hitler's Mein Kampf and spending hours mimicking before tape recorder and mirror the Italian Fascist Benito Mussolini. While some of his apologists have argued that Castro was somehow forced into communism (even after he boldly declared himself a Marxist/Leninist),his early history exposes him as a gangster and revolutionary. In 1947, for example, Castro participated in an invasion of the Dominican Republic. In 1948, when the meeting in Colombia of the Ninth International Conference of American States was attended by a large contingent of communist students, including Fidel, there were thousands killed in the Bogotazo riots. The bloody frenzy was touched off by the assassination of Liberal Party leader Jorge Eliecer Gaitan. Shortly before Gaitan's killing, Castro was seen in the presence of the assassin (who was himself killed); the communists were prepared to take advantage of the violence. Subsequently, U.S. Ambassador to Peru and Brazil William Pawley testified before Congress that he had heard a voice on the radio saying (hyperbolically, it turned out): "This is Fidel Castro from Cuba. This is a Communist revolution. The president has been killed; all the military establishments in Colombia are now in our hands; the navy has capitulated, and this revolution has been a success." The police and even the president of Colombia uncovered Castro's role -- identifying him and another Red as "first-grade agents of the Third Front of the USSR in South America." On July 26, 1953, Castro led an abortive coup attempt against Cuba's president, Fulgencio Batista. Although Castro and his brother Raul, a known communist, were sentenced to 15 and 13 years respectively, Batista amnestied them after 22 months. The Castros left Cuba for Mexico, where they hooked up with Argentine communist Ernesto "Che" Guevara and others to prepare for an invasion of Cuba. The resulting 82-man "invasion" in December 1956 was a dismal failure, and Fidel and a small band of survivors took to the Sierra Maestra. Enter Herbert Matthews The American media, in particular Herbert Matthews of the New York Times, built up the myth of Fidel Castro -- the supposed agrarian reformer. John Kennedy compared the Cuban revolution to the American one, and called Fidel "part of the legacy of Bolivar." JFK also bought the fable of U.S. exploitation of a downtrodden Cuba. Matthews, who had earlier backed the communist side in the Spanish Civil War, also exaggerated such things as the alleged poor health care of Cubans and even a lack of shoes. Yet even Kennedy house historian Arthur Schlesinger admitted that pre-Castro Cuba ranked near the top in Latin America in "education, literacy, social services and urbanization." Cuba's communist revolution did not start from the "bottom up." Che Guevara, in the World Marxist Review, acknowledged as much: "The armed struggle was initiated by the petty bourgeoisie." In a series of articles starting in February 1957, Matthews blasted Batista and fawned on Fidel, "the rebel leader of Cuba's youth," who was a "flaming symbol." General Batista, assured Matthews, "cannot possibly hope to suppress the Castro revolt." Fidel Castro's program, came the word from the Times, "amounts to a new deal for Cuba, radical, democratic, and therefore anti- Communist." Matthews' coverage of Castro in the New York Times was reprinted by Castro supporters and distributed in Cuba, leading to a series of public-relations successes. As a Castro publicist put it: "Both Matthews and the New York Times could be considered practically in our pockets, so it was better to keep them in reserve for the future."
RE: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
-Psychic Marc- > [Castro] saw revolution as the only way to break the endless > pattern of Cubans electing democratic governments etc. -Confused Marc- > Where's the beef, er, ideology? I deliberately avoided painting > him in ideological colours. This is history as it happened If you can't see how your psychic analysis, or at least psychoanalysis, of Castro does not constitute "history as it happened", but rather is an ideological gloss, then I'm powerless to help. However, as you take great pleasure in "tweaking" Americans, I expect that's what you're doing now. Stephen the Tweaked / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
>
>
> Steven Montgomery wrote:
>
> > At 12:25 AM 10/21/2002, you wrote:
> > >No, Clifford -- ask Steven to reveal his sources.
> >
> > Don't know about your sources, but I take mine from Prophets of God:
> >
>
> Oh, I forgot, Clifford. That's another tactic of the far right in the
Churc> h: to
> try to shut you up by pretending that they are speaking doctrine. This
make> s any
> criticism you may have of a purely political matter ipso facto a religious
> issue.
> It's a shameful tactic, imo.
What!? You don't believe a Prophet of God? The perhaps you'll believe this from
Castro's own words as published June 1986 in the French magazine, "Le Figaro."
[back in 1959 the U.S. wanted] "us to make a
strategic and tactical error and proclaim a doctrine as a communist
movement. In fact, I was a communist I think that a good
Marxist-Leninist would not have proclaimed a socialist revolution in the
conditions that existed in Cuba in 1959. I think I was a good
Marxist-Leninist in not doing that, and when we did not make known our
underlying beliefs." --("Le Figaro," June 1986)
Why don't you just admit that you are wrong? Perhaps Elder Benson is not quite
so reactionary as you think--could that be possible?
--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
Stephen Beecroft wrote: > -Marc, apparently using ESP, paints Castro in ideological colors...- > > [Castro] saw revolution as the only way to break the endless > > pattern of Cubans electing democratic governments only to have > > them subverted into puppet regimes of US agricultural interests > > and organized crime figures. > Where's the beef, er, ideology? I deliberately avoided painting him in ideological colours. This is history as it happened, not according to what card someone had in their pocket. If the U.S. had left Cuba alone, Castro would never have come to power, imo. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
Steven Montgomery wrote: > At 12:25 AM 10/21/2002, you wrote: > >No, Clifford -- ask Steven to reveal his sources. > > Don't know about your sources, but I take mine from Prophets of God: > Oh, I forgot, Clifford. That's another tactic of the far right in the Church: to try to shut you up by pretending that they are speaking doctrine. This makes any criticism you may have of a purely political matter ipso facto a religious issue. It's a shameful tactic, imo. > > Just a short time ago Fidel Castro broadcast to the world his boastful > confession that he had been a hard-core communist all of his adult life. He > gloried in the fact that he had been able to confuse and deceive many > people simply by saying he was not a communist. And because there were > gullible people in this and other countries who believed his false > assertions, he was able to establish a Soviet beachhead"A communist > satellite under active Russian control." > (10233elder Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1962, First > DayMorning Meeting 15.) > Again, even if this is true, what's the point? Cuba could have developed along stable, democratic lines, but the US prevented it. Castro is a US product, and he revels in his role as a foil to Washington. You just feed him with this kind of rhetoric. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > > Steven Montgomery wrote: > > > > > At 12:25 AM 10/21/2002, you wrote: > > > >No, Clifford -- ask Steven to reveal his sources. > > > > > > Don't know about your sources, but I take mine from Prophets of God: > > > > > > > Oh, I forgot, Clifford. That's another tactic of the far right in the > Churc> h: to > > try to shut you up by pretending that they are speaking doctrine. This > make> s any > > criticism you may have of a purely political matter ipso facto a religious > > issue. > > It's a shameful tactic, imo. > > What!? You don't believe a Prophet of God? The perhaps you'll believe this from > Castro's own words as published June 1986 in the French magazine, "Le Figaro." > See -- he never gives up. Put a sock in it, Steven. My testimony doesn't depend on your political views. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
Since this thread is fraying all over the place, here's a summary post of how I see the history of Cuba. 1.The US interfered with Cuba and controlled it since it received nominal independence from Spain. These interests included industrial (sugar and other agriculture) interests and organized crime. They were backed up by US military force. 2.Cuba tried on a number of occasions to elect truly democratic governments. These governments were destabilized and fell, thanks to the intervention of the above-mentioned interests. 3.Castro (and others) felt that the only way to break this chain was to sever the link with the U.S. He led a successful revolution and severed ties with the U.S. He offered compensation for nationalized assets, but the U.S. passed a law making it illegal for U.S. residents to accept compensation. 4. Castro's ideology at least after taking power was communism. 5.Castro may or may not have been a communist since before the revolution, however, a) it's irrelevant because his true "ideology" was simply anti-US -- he had seen what he felt to be the rape of his country and wanted to stop it, and would use whatever means necessary to achieve that aim; b) when witnesses are trotted forth from JBS literature saying that Castro had always been a communist, we're supposed to believe them, but when it's shown that these witnesses are misrepresented, all of a sudden they become "Gadianton Robbers" and aren't to be trusted -- that is not an objective approach; c) concentrating on the ideology, and demonizing Castro because of it allows the far right to ignore or divert issues of how Castro was able to seize power in the first place (by dint of US interference and proto-imperialism). 6.That things aren't even worse in Central America and the Caribbean are thanks to an elder of Zion, J. Reuben Clark, Jr., whose "Clark Memorandum" diverted early 20th century attempts by the U.S. to become true imperialists like their British and French predecessors. 7.I have no idea what Victor is talking about. Where does one get a card that says one is a liberal democrat? (except in Britain, where there's a Liberal Democratic party). Also, it's "straitlaced," not "straightlaced." The words have different meanings. If he means all Democrats are liberal, then I suggest he discuss his problem with President Faust, a registered Democrat. 8.An ideological approach is one where one demonizes an opponent by using a label in such a way as to divert one's attention from what actually happened in history. One of its particularly obnoxious tools, and the reason I left Zion-L once, is when they try to claim ecclesiastical/doctrinal authority for their perverted and hobby horse views. 9.Pointing out your own history to you doesn't make one "anti-USAmerican". If you disagree with my reading of history, then prove me wrong, don't attack the messenger. That's the classic mistake of an ad hominem argument. I think that covers it all. I'll proceed with any discussion of the topic based on these points, because I've already addressed them. If others are merely going to rehash earlier arguments, I'm going to ignore them -- they've already been addressed. So address the response, don't just repeat yourself. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
-Marc, apparently using ESP, paints Castro in ideological colors...- > [Castro] saw revolution as the only way to break the endless > pattern of Cubans electing democratic governments only to have > them subverted into puppet regimes of US agricultural interests > and organized crime figures. -...and then takes Steven to task- > But painting him in ideological colours oversimplifies Cuban > history heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh Stephen (Glad to see those lessons are progressing so well. Write if you need help, or just think really hard so I get the message.) / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Marc writes: > > > Again, even if this is true, what's the point? Cuba could have developed > al> ong > > stable, democratic lines, but the US prevented it. > > Which is exactely the point made in Quigley's, _Tragedy and Hope_ and > Skousen's, _The Naked Capitalist_, Gary Allen's, _None Dare Call It Conspiracy_ > and many other book. > No it's not. They just attack ideology. There is not one mention in None Dare Call it Conspiracy or the Naked Conspiracy that I can recall (I haven't read Quigley's book) about U.S. thwarting of the development of democracy in Cuba. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
Marc wrote: > > > > Which is exactely the point made in Quigley's, _Tragedy and Hope_ and > > Skousen's, _The Naked Capitalist_, Gary Allen's, _None Dare Call It Consp> iracy_ > > and many other book. > > > > No it's not. They just attack ideology. There is not one mention in None Da> re Call > it Conspiracy or the Naked Conspiracy that I can recall (I haven't read Qui> gley's > book) about U.S. thwarting of the development of democracy in Cuba. I guess you missed the point then. All of the above mentioned books document how U.S. Capitalists helped various communists and communist regimes come to power. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Steven Montgomery wrote: > > > > > > > At 12:25 AM 10/21/2002, you wrote: > > > > >No, Clifford -- ask Steven to reveal his sources. > > > > > > > > Don't know about your sources, but I take mine from Prophets of God: > > > > > > > > > > Oh, I forgot, Clifford. That's another tactic of the far right in the > > Churc> h: to > > > try to shut you up by pretending that they are speaking doctrine. This > > make> s any > > > criticism you may have of a purely political matter ipso facto a religi> ous > > > issue. > > > It's a shameful tactic, imo. > > > > What!? You don't believe a Prophet of God? The perhaps you'll believe thi> s from > > Castro's own words as published June 1986 in the French magazine, "Le Fig> aro." > > > > See -- he never gives up. Put a sock in it, Steven. My testimony doesn't de> pend on > your political views. > > -- > Marc A. Schindler Neither does my testimony depend on your political views--so what? Why don't you address the sources themselves rather than attack the messenger? -- Steven Montgomery / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
-Marc- > Since this thread is fraying all over the place, here's a > summary post of how I see the history of Cuba. > [...] > 6.That things aren't even worse in Central America and the > Caribbean are thanks to an elder of Zion, J. Reuben Clark, Jr., > whose "Clark Memorandum" diverted early 20th century attempts > by the U.S. to become true imperialists like their British and > French predecessors. Not sure how this (or any of the following points) has anything to do with the history of Cuba. Also, don't you think your above statement is an oversimplification? > 7.I have no idea what Victor is talking about. Where does > one get a card that says one is a liberal democrat? One can get that from me, for a small charge. > Also, it's "straitlaced," not "straightlaced." The words have > different meanings. Not according to www.m-w.com. They are listed as variant spellings of the same word. In any case, if you're going to be critical of spelling, you missed "then", "let's", "forgiveness", "afterlife", "card-carrying", "temple-going", and of course "Latter-day Saint". But such things seem to me a case of attacking the messenger instead of the message, something I know you find distasteful. > If he means all Democrats are liberal, then I suggest he discuss > his problem with President Faust, a registered Democrat. Interesting. I did not get that meaning at all from what he wrote, nor did it even occur to me. Perhaps Canadians just can't understand American political talk... > 8.An ideological approach is one where one demonizes an > opponent by using a label in such a way as to divert one's > attention from what actually happened in history. Ah. In other words, Steven's approach was ideological *because* he was "demonizing an opponent" with ideological tags, while your approach was clearly not ideological, since you weren't using your ideological tags to demonize Castro. But then, you were arguably demonizing the US. Of course, I expect you'd claim the US wasn't your "opponent", so therefore it still doesn't fit your definition of "an ideological approach". I'm just not sure I accept your definition, I guess. > One of its particularly obnoxious tools, and the reason I left > Zion-L once, is when they try to claim ecclesiastical/doctrinal > authority for their perverted and hobby horse views. Again, I agree completely with this sentiment. As an example, those who try to leverage Elder Nelson's recent conference talk to bolster their sociopolitical views against US actions toward Iraq are obnoxiously wresting his "ecclesiastical/doctrinal authority" to support their "perverted and hobby horse views". Wouldn't you agree? > 9.Pointing out your own history to you doesn't make one > "anti-USAmerican". True enough. Rather, continually and disproportionately attacking US actions, past and present, and attaching such ideological tags as "imperialistic" and "militaristic" to the US, makes one anti-American, at least in my view. > If you disagree with my reading of history, then prove me > wrong, don't attack the messenger. That's the classic mistake > of an ad hominem argument. So when the anti-Mormons say, "Those twisted Mormons get NAKED in their temples! And they're POLYTHEISTS, like Hindus! And they teach that Jesus and Satan are BROTHERS!", your response is to say, "Yup, you're absolutely right, no arguments here"? Or do you concede that the messenger's presentation may indeed severely color the message? Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
Does this mean that I am a nakedly polytheistic brother of Satan? Cool! I never thought about it that way. But as I grow older, I have a harder and harder time twisting. Does that mean I will someday lose my temple recommend? Jon > So when the anti-Mormons say, "Those twisted Mormons get NAKED in their > temples! And they're POLYTHEISTS, like Hindus! And they teach that Jesus > and Satan are BROTHERS!", your response is to say, "Yup, you're > absolutely right, no arguments here"? Or do you concede that the > messenger's presentation may indeed severely color the message? / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Marc wrote: > > > > > > > Which is exactely the point made in Quigley's, _Tragedy and Hope_ and > > > Skousen's, _The Naked Capitalist_, Gary Allen's, _None Dare Call It > Consp> iracy_ > > > and many other book. > > > > > > > No it's not. They just attack ideology. There is not one mention in None > Da> re Call > > it Conspiracy or the Naked Conspiracy that I can recall (I haven't read > Qui> gley's > > book) about U.S. thwarting of the development of democracy in Cuba. > > I guess you missed the point then. All of the above mentioned books document > how U.S. Capitalists helped various communists and communist regimes come to > power. > Stay tuned. It wasn't just communist regimes they helped to power. They helped *anyone* who would protect their interests, regardless of ideology. That was my point when I said that ideological readings of history are oversimplifications. > > -- > Steven Montgomery -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
Stephen Beecroft wrote: > -Marc- > > Since this thread is fraying all over the place, here's a > > summary post of how I see the history of Cuba. > > [...] > > 6.That things aren't even worse in Central America and the > > Caribbean are thanks to an elder of Zion, J. Reuben Clark, Jr., > > whose "Clark Memorandum" diverted early 20th century attempts > > by the U.S. to become true imperialists like their British and > > French predecessors. > > Not sure how this (or any of the following points) has anything to do > with the history of Cuba. Also, don't you think your above statement is > an oversimplification? > I did say I was summarizing, so your question is irrelevantly tautological. What the point has to do with the history of Cuba is that Cuba is part of "Central America and the Caribbean" and the history of that region might have suffered even more heavy-handedly than it did if it weren't for a member of the Church's intervention in turning the USA away from a true imperialist course. > > > 7.I have no idea what Victor is talking about. Where does > > one get a card that says one is a liberal democrat? > > One can get that from me, for a small charge. > > > Also, it's "straitlaced," not "straightlaced." The words have > > different meanings. > > Not according to www.m-w.com. They are listed as variant spellings of > the same word. In any case, if you're going to be critical of spelling, > you missed "then", "let's", "forgiveness", "afterlife", "card-carrying", > "temple-going", and of course "Latter-day Saint". But such things seem > to me a case of attacking the messenger instead of the message, > something I know you find distasteful. > Well, I don't care about what some website lists as "variants". "Strait" means narrow, constricted; "straight" means without bends. Just go north on the water into the Strait of Juan de Fuca or the Georgia Strait -- they're anything but straight. My complaint was that I couldn't understand Victor. Using tools of communications properly is an aid in understanding; it wasn't a personal attack on Victor. > > > If he means all Democrats are liberal, then I suggest he discuss > > his problem with President Faust, a registered Democrat. > > Interesting. I did not get that meaning at all from what he wrote, nor > did it even occur to me. Perhaps Canadians just can't understand > American political talk... > Are you saying he's not a Democrat? N. Eldon Tanner and Hugh B. Brown were Democrats, too. > > > 8.An ideological approach is one where one demonizes an > > opponent by using a label in such a way as to divert one's > > attention from what actually happened in history. > > Ah. In other words, Steven's approach was ideological *because* he was > "demonizing an opponent" with ideological tags, while your approach was > clearly not ideological, since you weren't using your ideological tags > to demonize Castro. But then, you were arguably demonizing the US. Of > course, I expect you'd claim the US wasn't your "opponent", so therefore > it still doesn't fit your definition of "an ideological approach". I'm > just not sure I accept your definition, I guess. > Take a valium. You're reading far more into this than is intended. See my new thread, "History of Cuba". > > > One of its particularly obnoxious tools, and the reason I left > > Zion-L once, is when they try to claim ecclesiastical/doctrinal > > authority for their perverted and hobby horse views. > > Again, I agree completely with this sentiment. As an example, those who > try to leverage Elder Nelson's recent conference talk to bolster their > sociopolitical views against US actions toward Iraq are obnoxiously > wresting his "ecclesiastical/doctrinal authority" to support their > "perverted and hobby horse views". Wouldn't you agree? > Yes. > > > 9.Pointing out your own history to you doesn't make one > > "anti-USAmerican". > > True enough. Rather, continually and disproportionately attacking US > actions, past and present, and attaching such ideological tags as > "imperialistic" and "militaristic" to the US, makes one anti-American, > at least in my view. > I didn't make the US the policeman of the world. > > > If you disagree with my reading of history, then prove me > > wrong, don't attack the messenger. That's the classic mistake > > of an ad hominem argument. > > So when the anti-Mormons say, "Those twisted Mormons get NAKED in their > temples! And they're POLYTHEISTS, like Hindus! And they teach that Jesus > and Satan are BROTHERS!", your response is to say, "Yup, you're > absolutely right, no arguments here"? Or do you concede that the > messenger's presentation may indeed severely color the message? > This is similar to Steven's technique: use religious terminology to demonize one's opponent. You can share Steven's sock -- I will not have my testimony challenged, directly or indirectly, on the basis of nationality or political belief. Like it or lump it, but I'm not going to be
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
Only if you disagree with the view of middle-class conservative USAmericans, it would seem to me, from some of the responses to bare [ooh, there's that naughty word again] facts of history. Jon Spencer wrote: > Does this mean that I am a nakedly polytheistic brother of Satan? > > Cool! I never thought about it that way. > > But as I grow older, I have a harder and harder time twisting. Does that > mean I will someday lose my temple recommend? > > Jon > > > So when the anti-Mormons say, "Those twisted Mormons get NAKED in their > > temples! And they're POLYTHEISTS, like Hindus! And they teach that Jesus > > and Satan are BROTHERS!", your response is to say, "Yup, you're > > absolutely right, no arguments here"? Or do you concede that the > > messenger's presentation may indeed severely color the message? > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
At 04:55 PM, Monday, 10/21/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote: Stay tuned. It wasn't just communist regimes they helped to power. They helped *anyone* who would protect their interests, regardless of ideology. That was my point when I said that ideological readings of history are oversimplifications. Baloney! Unless you are a mind reader, how could you possibly know that they were not at least partly motivated by ideology? --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
Stephen, if you contribute something positive, I'll comment on it. Otherwise, why bother? How do you know what my emotional state is if and when I "tweak" "Americans"? You can read history, or ignore it with smug personal attacks. Your choice. Stephen Beecroft wrote: > -Psychic Marc- > > [Castro] saw revolution as the only way to break the endless > > pattern of Cubans electing democratic governments etc. > > -Confused Marc- > > Where's the beef, er, ideology? I deliberately avoided painting > > him in ideological colours. This is history as it happened > > If you can't see how your psychic analysis, or at least psychoanalysis, > of Castro does not constitute "history as it happened", but rather is an > ideological gloss, then I'm powerless to help. However, as you take > great pleasure in "tweaking" Americans, I expect that's what you're > doing now. > > Stephen the Tweaked > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
At 04:55 PM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote: Stay tuned. It wasn't just communist regimes they helped to power. They helped *anyone* who would protect their interests, regardless of ideology. That was my point when I said that ideological readings of history are oversimplifications. . . . and ascribing these actions by rich capitalists as merely serving their best interests monetarily is an oversimplification. Some people, Gadiaton types especially, are driven by the desire to get power--as well as gain. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those of us who take note of and criticize abuses of power by the federal bureaucracy are often accused of being "anti-government." This is not only untrue, it is the exact opposite of the truth. The John Birch Society and those who share our constitutionalist point of view are emphatically pro-government so much so, in fact, that we want to see as many governments as possible dividing power and responsibilities, and keeping each other in check. What we oppose is the alternative the effective abolition of local, county, and state governments and their absorption into a monolithic federal state, which in turn would ultimately be subsumed into a global leviathan directed by the United Nations.--WNG The Review of the News Oct 13, 2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
At 05:02 PM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote: This is similar to Steven's technique: use religious terminology to demonize one's opponent. You can share Steven's sock -- I will not have my testimony challenged, directly or indirectly, on the basis of nationality or political belief. Like it or lump it, but I'm not going to be tactful anymore in responding to this kind of "spiritual harrassment." Why are you getting all huffy? I didn't attack your testimony, nor did I spiritually harass you. I simply pointed out that you were wrong concerning Castro--that he was a communist before coming to power in Cuba and is still a communist. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today." --Steven W. Mosher / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
Steven, Cliff can speak for himself, but I for one will not be intimidated by spiritual harrassment. My testimony is not up to you to define with idiosyncratic and isolated proof-texts. In any case, the claim wasn't whether Castro *said* he'd been a Communist all his life, it's whether it was a fact or not. Naturally by 1962 he would have said something like this because he'd signed the treaty of friendship with the Soviet Union. This is the second time I've addressed this. You can choose to believe me or not, but the courtesy of a response would be appreciated, rather than just repeating the same old charge. Just think: Cuba could have been a democracy except for your meddling. Steven Montgomery wrote: > At 12:25 AM 10/21/2002, you wrote: > >No, Clifford -- ask Steven to reveal his sources. > > Don't know about your sources, but I take mine from Prophets of God: > > Just a short time ago Fidel Castro broadcast to the world his boastful > confession that he had been a hard-core communist all of his adult life. He > gloried in the fact that he had been able to confuse and deceive many > people simply by saying he was not a communist. And because there were > gullible people in this and other countries who believed his false > assertions, he was able to establish a Soviet beachhead"A communist > satellite under active Russian control." > (10233elder Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1962, First > DayMorning Meeting 15.) > > -- > Steven Montgomery > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Those of us who take note of and criticize abuses of power by the federal > bureaucracy are often accused of being "anti-government." This is not only > untrue, it is the exact opposite of the truth. The John Birch Society and > those > who share our constitutionalist point of view are emphatically > pro-government > so much so, in fact, that we want to see as many governments as possible > dividing power and responsibilities, and keeping each other in check. What we > oppose is the alternative the effective abolition of local, county, and > state > governments and their absorption into a monolithic federal state, which in > turn > would ultimately be subsumed into a global leviathan directed by the United > Nations.--WNG The Review of the News Oct 13, 2002 > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > See -- he never gives up. Put a sock in it, Steven. My testimony doesn't > de> pend on > > your political views. > > > > -- > > Marc A. Schindler > > Neither does my testimony depend on your political views--so what? Why don't > you address the sources themselves rather than attack the messenger? > > -- > Steven > Montgomery > But I'm not the one quoting general authorities in an attempt to back up my political and historical opinions. You are. Logically speaking, you are, in effect, challenging me to criticize Pres. Benson. I'm not going to fall into that trap. (I take it that in your response you are the "messenger" and Pres. Benson the "sources"?) -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
Good point. Let me rephrase what I said and say "explicit ideologies." See my definition of ideology in a post I made after you wrote this one. "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > At 04:55 PM, Monday, 10/21/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote: > >Stay tuned. It wasn't just communist regimes they helped to power. They helped > >*anyone* who would protect their interests, regardless of ideology. That > >was my > >point when I said that ideological readings of history are > >oversimplifications. > > Baloney! Unless you are a mind reader, how could you possibly know that > they were not at least partly motivated by ideology? --JWR > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
That is fair enough. To me they are usually one and the same. An implicit assumption on my part, I'll admit. Steven Montgomery wrote: > At 04:55 PM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote: > >Stay tuned. It wasn't just communist regimes they helped to power. They helped > >*anyone* who would protect their interests, regardless of ideology. That > >was my > >point when I said that ideological readings of history are > >oversimplifications. > > . . . and ascribing these actions by rich capitalists as merely serving > their best interests monetarily is an oversimplification. Some people, > Gadiaton types especially, are driven by the desire to get power--as well > as gain. > > -- > Steven Montgomery > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Those of us who take note of and criticize abuses of power by the federal > bureaucracy are often accused of being "anti-government." This is not only > untrue, it is the exact opposite of the truth. The John Birch Society and > those > who share our constitutionalist point of view are emphatically > pro-government > so much so, in fact, that we want to see as many governments as possible > dividing power and responsibilities, and keeping each other in check. What we > oppose is the alternative the effective abolition of local, county, and > state > governments and their absorption into a monolithic federal state, which in > turn > would ultimately be subsumed into a global leviathan directed by the United > Nations.--WNG The Review of the News Oct 13, 2002 > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
At 06:35 PM 10/21/2002, you wrote: Steven, Cliff can speak for himself, but I for one will not be intimidated by spiritual harrassment. My testimony is not up to you to define with idiosyncratic and isolated proof-texts. In any case, the claim wasn't whether Castro *said* he'd been a Communist all his life, it's whether it was a fact or not. Naturally by 1962 he would have said something like this because he'd signed the treaty of friendship with the Soviet Union. This is the second time I've addressed this. You can choose to believe me or not, but the courtesy of a response would be appreciated, rather than just repeating the same old charge. Just think: Cuba could have been a democracy except for your meddling. Right. And Fidel Castro was the George Washington of Cuba. NOT! I've already showed you where there was overwhelming evidence that when Fidel Castro took power in January 1959 that he had been a Communist agent at least since 1948, when he led a bloody Communist uprising in Bogota, Colombia. It is common practice among revolutionaries to pretend they are "democratic" in order to help them slide into power. Once in power Castro's true colors came out. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today." --Steven W. Mosher / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
At 06:57 PM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote: But I'm not the one quoting general authorities in an attempt to back up my political and historical opinions. You are. Logically speaking, you are, in effect, challenging me to criticize Pres. Benson. I'm not going to fall into that trap. (I take it that in your response you are the "messenger" and Pres. Benson the "sources"?) -- Marc A. Schindler ETB knew about Castro's communist connections because both the U.S. Ambassadors to Cuba and Mexico warned him about the connections. Okay, forget about the Benson quote. Forget I mentioned it. Perhaps it was a lapse of judgement on my part. What about the other evidence that Castro was a communist? -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today." --Steven W. Mosher / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
At 07:36 PM 10/21/2002, you wrote: At 06:57 PM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote: But I'm not the one quoting general authorities in an attempt to back up my political and historical opinions. You are. Logically speaking, you are, in effect, challenging me to criticize Pres. Benson. I'm not going to fall into that trap. (I take it that in your response you are the "messenger" and Pres. Benson the "sources"?) -- Marc A. Schindler ETB knew about Castro's communist connections because both the U.S. Ambassadors to Cuba and Mexico warned him about the connections. Okay, forget about the Benson quote. Forget I mentioned it. Perhaps it was a lapse of judgement on my part. What about the other evidence that Castro was a communist? -- Steven Montgomery On second thought, why should I apologize for quoting ETB? After all, this is an LDS religious list, is it not? In your postings with the Subject line, "Cult of Personality," you've made great noise about the fact that sometimes even General Authorities can disagree on political matters. Fine, I accept that, and believe it. Trouble is, where is the General Authority who disagrees with ETB regarding this particular issue, that of Fidel Castro being a communist? I haven't been able to find one. Perhaps there is a general consensus then? -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today." --Steven W. Mosher / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
Steven Montgomery wrote: > At 06:35 PM 10/21/2002, you wrote: > >Steven, Cliff can speak for himself, but I for one will not be intimidated by > >spiritual harrassment. My testimony is not up to you to define with > >idiosyncratic > >and isolated proof-texts. In any case, the claim wasn't whether Castro *said* > >he'd been a Communist all his life, it's whether it was a fact or not. > >Naturally > >by 1962 he would have said something like this because he'd signed the > >treaty of > >friendship with the Soviet Union. This is the second time I've addressed this. > >You can choose to believe me or not, but the courtesy of a response would be > >appreciated, rather than just repeating the same old charge. > > > >Just think: Cuba could have been a democracy except for your meddling. > > Right. And Fidel Castro was the George Washington of Cuba. NOT! > Never said he was. You're evading the question I'm raising. > > I've already showed you where there was overwhelming evidence that when > Fidel Castro took power in January 1959 that he had been a Communist agent > at least since 1948, when he led a bloody Communist uprising in Bogota, > Colombia. It is common practice among revolutionaries to pretend they are > "democratic" in order to help them slide into power. Once in power Castro's > true colors came out. > Straw man, Steven. I have never tried to argue that Castro is not Communist, is not a dictator. We are talking right past each other. I'm admitting all the bad things you are saying about him, but saying that the US had a large -- indeed, the major -- part to play in paving the way for him to come to power. You could have prevented it by nurturing democracy but you chose instead to nurture tyranny. I don't care what colour you paint the giant bronze statue in the town square -- Communist red is the same as Fascist brown or Plutocratic green and gold in my books. > > -- > Steven Montgomery > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
What about it? When have I ever denied Castro is a Communist? His early life is shadowy (unlike Ché Gueverra, about whom we know a fair bit), but for the sake of argument let's agree that he was christened a Communist while a babe in arms. What difference does that make to the point I've been trying to make that it was US meddling that paved the way to his rise to power? I've been to Cuba, for crying out loud -- I know what kind of a dismal place it is. Steven Montgomery wrote: > At 06:57 PM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote: > > >But I'm not the one quoting general authorities in an attempt to back up my > >political and historical opinions. You are. Logically speaking, you are, in > >effect, challenging me to criticize Pres. Benson. I'm not going to fall > >into that > >trap. (I take it that in your response you are the "messenger" and Pres. > >Benson > >the "sources"?) > > > > > >-- > >Marc A. Schindler > > ETB knew about Castro's communist connections because both the U.S. > Ambassadors to Cuba and Mexico warned him about the connections. Okay, > forget about the Benson quote. Forget I mentioned it. Perhaps it was a > lapse of judgement on my part. > > What about the other evidence that Castro was a communist? > > -- > Steven Montgomery > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > "Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of > selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American > politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today." > --Steven W. Mosher > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
I think the answer to that is self-explanatory. To quote a non-GA, listen to the sounds of silence. (Marlin K. Jensen gives a hint in his interview, incidentally). And just so I'm not totally opaque here, I'm not talking about your specific claim that Castro was a Communist. I don't know why this is so difficult to get across, but I have never, from the very beginning of the thread, argued that Castro is not a Communist. I don't think it's proven that he started as a Communist, but I don't think it matters, either. That is not the question I raised. You keep answering a question I'm not asking. What I am talking about is this exact blindered approach of the ideologue -- as per the dictionary definition I've posted. It's a dangerous approach and can lead to cultism. Ironically, in the political arena it can also lead to results that are diametrically opposite to what is intended. Steven Montgomery wrote: > At 07:36 PM 10/21/2002, you wrote: > >At 06:57 PM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote: > > > >>But I'm not the one quoting general authorities in an attempt to back up my > >>political and historical opinions. You are. Logically speaking, you are, in > >>effect, challenging me to criticize Pres. Benson. I'm not going to fall > >>into that > >>trap. (I take it that in your response you are the "messenger" and Pres. > >>Benson > >>the "sources"?) > >> > >> > >>-- > >>Marc A. Schindler > > > >ETB knew about Castro's communist connections because both the U.S. > >Ambassadors to Cuba and Mexico warned him about the connections. Okay, > >forget about the Benson quote. Forget I mentioned it. Perhaps it was a > >lapse of judgement on my part. > > > >What about the other evidence that Castro was a communist? > > > > > > > >-- > >Steven Montgomery > > On second thought, why should I apologize for quoting ETB? After all, this > is an LDS religious list, is it not? In your postings with the Subject > line, "Cult of Personality," you've made great noise about the fact that > sometimes even General Authorities can disagree on political matters. Fine, > I accept that, and believe it. Trouble is, where is the General Authority > who disagrees with ETB regarding this particular issue, that of Fidel > Castro being a communist? I haven't been able to find one. Perhaps there is > a general consensus then? > > -- > Steven Montgomery > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > "Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of > selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American > politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today." > --Steven W. Mosher > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
At 12:03 AM 10/22/2002, Marc wrote: What difference does that make to the point I've been trying to make that it was US meddling that paved the way to his [Castro's] rise to power? We have no argument here. I agree. Although probably for different reasons. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today." --Steven W. Mosher / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
>Trouble is, where is the General Authority >who disagrees with ETB regarding this particular issue, that of Fidel >Castro being a communist? I haven't been able to find one. Perhaps there is >a general consensus then? O come on Steven, get real. We don't even know which of the Presidential candidates the GA's voted for let alone which parties they think the world leaders are in. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
Thank you. Steven Montgomery wrote: > At 12:03 AM 10/22/2002, Marc wrote: > > >What difference does that make to the point I've been trying to make that > >it was > >US meddling that paved the way to his [Castro's] rise to power? > > We have no argument here. I agree. Although probably for different reasons. > > -- > Steven Montgomery > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > "Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of > selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American > politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today." > --Steven W. Mosher > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
At 12:44 PM 10/22/2002, you wrote: >Trouble is, where is the General Authority >who disagrees with ETB regarding this particular issue, that of Fidel >Castro being a communist? I haven't been able to find one. Perhaps there is >a general consensus then? O come on Steven, get real. We don't even know which of the Presidential candidates the GA's voted for let alone which parties they think the world leaders are in. Paul O It was merely a rhetorical question. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Explore Freedom: http://www.geocities.com/graymada / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
At 11:58 PM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote: Straw man, Steven. I have never tried to argue that Castro is not Communist, is not a dictator. We are talking right past each other. I'm admitting all the bad things you are saying about him, but saying that the US had a large -- indeed, the major -- part to play in paving the way for him to come to power. You could have prevented it by nurturing democracy but you chose instead to nurture tyranny. I don't care what colour you paint the giant bronze statue in the town square -- Communist red is the same as Fascist brown or Plutocratic green and gold in my books. Then what are we arguing about? Because I generally agree with your position here. Gadianton Robbers located in the U.S. *did* have a great part to play in Castro coming to power. Just as they played a part in the Bolshevik revolution and helping Mao come to power. Such was the general thesis in books such as, _None Dare Call It Conspiracy_, _The Naked Capitalist_, and others. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today." --Steven W. Mosher / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
Steven Montgomery wrote: > Then what are we arguing about? Who's on first, I guess :-) -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
>It was merely a rhetorical question. Oh. I'm a little dumb. ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
At 05:42 PM 10/22/2002, you wrote: >It was merely a rhetorical question. Oh. I'm a little dumb. ;-) Paul O As we all are at times. ;-) -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today." --Steven W. Mosher / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
At 01:44 PM, Tuesday, 10/22/02, Paul Osborne wrote: O come on Steven, get real. We don't even know which of the Presidential candidates the GA's voted for let alone which parties they think the world leaders are in. So how come we know where President Benson stood on these issues? --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
