Re: [Zope] DTML in Zope 2 vs Zope 3
On 5/27/05, Hugo Ramos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/27/05, Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: AT? As in ArcheTypes? You ARE kidding right? I've never seen such bad code, and in particular, abuse of ZPT in my entire life... And DTML sux, you wanna use it, fine, that says something about you. Use ZClasses, Plone, AT and XUF at the same time while you're at it. Why not dig out LoginManager and ZPatterns too, just for good measure? Hell, why not just do us all a favour and switch to using Perl where you'll be s much happier, and everyone in the community will agree with you rather than trying to help you not shoot yourself in the foot ;-) Is it me or are you really pissed??? :-) At least give DTML some credit... It's what made Zope so popular in the first days because of easy and fast learning curve!!! Regards Hugo Yup, I completely agree with Hugo, dtml what made zope, zope. Chris probably has a point as an advanced user but zope still needs a lot of joe-beginners and their needs to be considered too. ismet -- Hugo Ramos - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] DTML in Zope 2 vs Zope 3
Am Montag, den 30.05.2005, 13:05 +0800 schrieb Ismet Dere: I also like DTML a lot, found it way too easy to understand and simple to use. I wonder how DTML is more easy then an equally simple python expression in a script? Lazy people should love ZPT since it saves a lot of typing compared to DTML - otoh, a general rule seems to be: beginners tend to write overly comlicated code. it was that simplicity of DTML that made me choose and use Zope over PHP in the first place. if dtml is to be phased out, Zope will be less attractive for new users then soon will be irrelevant no matter how sophisticated and advanced it may become. No, it will not phased out. Neither in zope2 nor in zope3. ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] DTML in Zope 2 vs Zope 3
Ismet Dere escribió: On 5/27/05, Hugo Ramos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/27/05, Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: AT? As in ArcheTypes? You ARE kidding right? I've never seen such bad code, and in particular, abuse of ZPT in my entire life... And DTML sux, you wanna use it, fine, that says something about you. Use ZClasses, Plone, AT and XUF at the same time while you're at it. Why not dig out LoginManager and ZPatterns too, just for good measure? Hell, why not just do us all a favour and switch to using Perl where you'll be s much happier, and everyone in the community will agree with you rather than trying to help you not shoot yourself in the foot ;-) Is it me or are you really pissed??? :-) At least give DTML some credit... It's what made Zope so popular in the first days because of easy and fast learning curve!!! Regards Hugo Yup, I completely agree with Hugo, dtml what made zope, zope. Chris probably has a point as an advanced user but zope still needs a lot of joe-beginners and their needs to be considered too. ismet -- Hugo Ramos - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) Sorry but, in my opinion, acquisition make zope, zope, products make zope zope, python make zope, zope but DTML, in my opinion, remember, is only a product See ya -- Mis Cosas http://blogs.sistes.net/Garito/ ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] DTML in Zope 2 vs Zope 3
I also like DTML a lot, found it way too easy to understand and simple to use. it was that simplicity of DTML that made me choose and use Zope over PHP in the first place. if dtml is to be phased out, Zope will be less attractive for new users then soon will be irrelevant no matter how sophisticated and advanced it may become. ismet On 5/27/05, Greg Fischer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am just curious, why is DTML not good? It does 9 out of 10 things I want quite easily. From my perspective, I really dont want to learn new ways of doing things if this works. I also have no desire to do templating. I can see the need for it in a large development shop,but for me, a 1 guy operation, I have no desire to complicate things. DTML works so easy for me. I do use Python scripts here and there for small and odd things that would be difficult or impossible to do in DTML, but like I said, that's maybe only 10% max of the functionality that I need to provide. (probably 5-6%) Having to move everything in Python is a hassle that I dont plan on doing for a few years. I'll just keep using Zope 2. I'd also be curious to know from all you other developers, what percentage of tasks that you need to perform or functionality you need to provide can be provided simply with DTML? Like for me, I can do quickly and easily do 90% of what I need in DTML. Is DTML really that much harder to use? I understand the whole idea of separating the logic and the presentation, and I guess, is that part of the reason why DTML is not as good? But, for me, that separation is more complicated. DTML is easier for me. (partly because I know it) I dont know, DTML and the everythings an object concept in Zope are the very things that make Zope so attractive for a small time operator like me. I hate to see them deprecated just because it doesnt work for the larger companies out there. Of course, I may be totally ignorant about all this, huh? Anyway, starting to ramble... Thanks for any thoughts. Greg On 5/26/05, Hugo Ramos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yellow, I have the same feeling... Python should be the primary language used in Zope but let's not just cut the support on DTML leaving thousands out there spinning around and having to go into Python as fast as they can because DTML is not supported anymore. Changes take time... Getting used to Python only in Zope takes time... and I'm not so sure the employers out there are that kind allowing everybody to take time making the move. Regards Hugo On 5/26/05, David H [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hugo Ramos wrote: Yellow, I think because of lazy people like me that prefer to use DTML in a fast way than go into a deep Python level to get the job done... I know that, eventually, one of these days I'll have to move on to Python only but until that day comes... DTML and a little bit of Python where needed suits me fine! :-) Regards Hugo Hugo, I figured as a dtml wiz a few years ago. Now I can't image doing w/out python scripts and suddenly DTML gives me a headache. I do think that DTML deserves a Hall of Fame Award but its time to move on. David -- Hugo Ramos - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) -- Greg Fischer 1st Byte Solutions http://www.1stbyte.com ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] DTML in Zope 2 vs Zope 3
--On 30. Mai 2005 13:05:31 +0800 Ismet Dere [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if dtml is to be phased out, Zope will be less attractive for new users then soon will be irrelevant no matter how sophisticated and advanced it may become. There are no plans to phase DTML out - neither in Zope 2 nor in Zope 3 as far as I know. If you want or need to use DTML - just use it. In general people are strongly encouraged to use ZPT for any kind of templates and use DTML only there where necessary e.g. when you want to create non-HTML/XML documents inside Zope..but in general ZPT is the preferred way to go. -aj pgpwA3TO88B4S.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] DTML in Zope 2 vs Zope 3
Andrew Milton wrote: +---[ Jonathan Cyr ]-- | Damn users, using all this imperfect software. These Kids Today! ;-) | | Easy Big Fella, Whooa. | You must be new here We've all learnt to ignore Chris... He gets easily confused... or maybe he doesn't take his medication... not sure, but, ignoring him generally works for the best d8) Actually as a member of scorched by Chris club I find his acid wit funny. Plus he has contributed alot to the community and has answered endless questions. David ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] DTML in Zope 2 vs Zope 3
Am Freitag, den 27.05.2005, 00:20 +0200 schrieb Jaroslav Lukesh: ... I absolutelly agree with you, it is like my words. But separation of logic and presentation could be done successfully in DTML too. ZPT, which have separation argument is not as easy to make totally This is even somewhat correct. If people had the discipline to not abuse the templating to do complicated logic. The major drawbacks of DTML are: - one namespace (with transparent layers) - confusing naming of tags, like dtml-var which really is dtml-print or something - and the extra tags for flow control, but probably the dtml fans can live with it. - peoples practice to use dtml-var foo even inside html-tags attributes, where dtml-foo; should be used. separated design as marketing says, for example see Plone - try to customize plone site to absolutelly different custom design - it is near impossible. Unfortunately Plone is still a bad example for ZPT. It is getting better but still it has a lot of code and definition in the templates. Maybe AT would be a way out. ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] DTML in Zope 2 vs Zope 3
Wow, thanks for the replies guys. It's good to hear I am not the only one who likes DTML. Tino, thanks for the explanations. I have some thoughts below on that, and keep in mind, I am questioning from my own ignorance. Tino Wrote: The major drawbacks of DTML are: - one namespace (with transparent layers) One namespace? Why do you need more? I havent had any problems with one. Can you give some examples of why this is important or how it would be useful? - confusing naming of tags, like dtml-var which really is dtml-print or something Well I realize that it could be named something else, but it never occured to me. I dont think it's confusing. I mean, in DTML you use 4 tags more than any other, IN, VAR, IF, and CALL. Simple. And if there is one thing I have learned over the few years I have been programming, it is to keep it simple. Simple works. - and the extra tags for flow control, but probably the dtml fans can live with it. Yeah, simple. We can live with it, particularly since we can call more detailed functionality from Python. - peoples practice to use dtml-var foo even inside html-tags attributes, where dtml-foo; should be used. Hmm.. Never thought of that one as I too just use the full dtml-var foo. I can see now that it might make readability a little better to use dtml, but is there a technical reason for using it that way? Thank you again for your input Tino. I can understand the need to take Zope to another level, its the nature of things to keep them growing. And changing Zope to fit the needs of large scale applications is good, I just hate to see the sacrifice of the smaller apps needs. I probably will never get to work on enterprise class systems, in fact I really dont want to, but Zope works beautifully for the small web apps and that's what I want to work on. I wonder what the ratio is of Zope users who use small apps to those who do large apps? Thanks again! Greg On 5/26/05, Tino Wildenhain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am Freitag, den 27.05.2005, 00:20 +0200 schrieb Jaroslav Lukesh: ... I absolutelly agree with you, it is like my words. But separation of logic and presentation could be done successfully in DTML too. ZPT, which have separation argument is not as easy to make totally This is even somewhat correct. If people had the discipline to not abuse the templating to do complicated logic. The major drawbacks of DTML are: - one namespace (with transparent layers) - confusing naming of tags, like dtml-var which really is dtml-print or something - and the extra tags for flow control, but probably the dtml fans can live with it. - peoples practice to use dtml-var foo even inside html-tags attributes, where dtml-foo; should be used. separated design as marketing says, for example see Plone - try to customize plone site to absolutelly different custom design - it is near impossible. Unfortunately Plone is still a bad example for ZPT. It is getting better but still it has a lot of code and definition in the templates. Maybe AT would be a way out. ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) -- Greg Fischer 1st Byte Solutions http://www.1stbyte.com ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] DTML in Zope 2 vs Zope 3
Tino Wildenhain wrote: Unfortunately Plone is still a bad example for ZPT. It is getting better but still it has a lot of code and definition in the templates. Maybe AT would be a way out. AT? As in ArcheTypes? You ARE kidding right? I've never seen such bad code, and in particular, abuse of ZPT in my entire life... And DTML sux, you wanna use it, fine, that says something about you. Use ZClasses, Plone, AT and XUF at the same time while you're at it. Why not dig out LoginManager and ZPatterns too, just for good measure? Hell, why not just do us all a favour and switch to using Perl where you'll be s much happier, and everyone in the community will agree with you rather than trying to help you not shoot yourself in the foot ;-) cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] DTML in Zope 2 vs Zope 3
On 5/27/05, Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: AT? As in ArcheTypes? You ARE kidding right? I've never seen such bad code, and in particular, abuse of ZPT in my entire life... And DTML sux, you wanna use it, fine, that says something about you. Use ZClasses, Plone, AT and XUF at the same time while you're at it. Why not dig out LoginManager and ZPatterns too, just for good measure? Hell, why not just do us all a favour and switch to using Perl where you'll be s much happier, and everyone in the community will agree with you rather than trying to help you not shoot yourself in the foot ;-) Is it me or are you really pissed??? :-) At least give DTML some credit... It's what made Zope so popular in the first days because of easy and fast learning curve!!! Regards Hugo -- Hugo Ramos - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] DTML in Zope 2 vs Zope 3
On 5/26/05, Greg Fischer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is DTML really that much harder to use? Nah, but it's uglier. Also, the idea is that a web editor that confirms to the tsandard of ignoring things it doens't understand, should in theory be usable with TAL, but not with DTML. In practice, however, HTML editors don't do that. I understand the whole idea of separating the logic and the presentation, and I guess, is that part of the reason why DTML is not as good? Well, it used to be. But logic crept into ZPTs as well. The good thing is to set up all the data in a python script or python method, and then use the template only to display this data. Zope3 has this separation built-in, when you create a page with a template it automatically gets connected to a view which is a python class, and you can specify your own custom view and set up the data there. In Zope 2 you have to call a script that creates the data, or reversely, use the script as the main view and let it call the template. (I don't know how easy that last thing is with DTML, but the first one works). If you do this, the drawbacks of DTML becomes much less painful. -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/ ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] DTML in Zope 2 vs Zope 3
Using DTML from WYSIWYG editors is definitely a drawback. But, how many of us use them for doing our work? I might use Dreamweaver to clean up my sliced web template, but soon as I start my Zope work, it's all Crimson Editor coding by hand to Zope. Using Dreamweaver actually slows me down, it's easier to just code it. However, from a newbie perspective, not being able to run my Zope content in my fancy, drag'n'drop editor really bugged me a long time a go. Saying DTML sucks is only stating your difference of oppinion. At least give us some insight as to why it sucks. Technical, usability, or even marketing reasons would be helpful. But, come on DUH? Everybody will have their preference of languages, and even the way they like to layout the code. So I understand that some of us like DTML and some dont. All that aside, DTML may be ugly, but I dont agree. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. :) Well, aside from the fact that you cant use DTML in WYSIWYG editors, I still dont understand why it is not good. If it is simple, easy to use, and it does the job, and I suppose, if you prefer it, why is it not good to use? I've beaten this subject to death, so time to move on. Thanks for hearing me out. Greg On 5/27/05, Lennart Regebro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/26/05, Greg Fischer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is DTML really that much harder to use? Nah, but it's uglier. Also, the idea is that a web editor that confirms to the tsandard of ignoring things it doens't understand, should in theory be usable with TAL, but not with DTML. In practice, however, HTML editors don't do that. I understand the whole idea of separating the logic and the presentation, and I guess, is that part of the reason why DTML is not as good? Well, it used to be. But logic crept into ZPTs as well. The good thing is to set up all the data in a python script or python method, and then use the template only to display this data. Zope3 has this separation built-in, when you create a page with a template it automatically gets connected to a view which is a python class, and you can specify your own custom view and set up the data there. In Zope 2 you have to call a script that creates the data, or reversely, use the script as the main view and let it call the template. (I don't know how easy that last thing is with DTML, but the first one works). If you do this, the drawbacks of DTML becomes much less painful. -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/ -- Greg Fischer 1st Byte Solutions http://www.1stbyte.com ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] DTML in Zope 2 vs Zope 3
Ah you are right. Just occured to me. That is kind of a pain in DTML, but I've learned how to deal with it. Makes sense. If I already have an object, say from a form submitted, in the REQUEST namespace, and I then retrieve data from sql and a column has the same name, I will have an issue. Which one is going to display in my var? I deal with this particular issue by changing my zsql method to return the column name differently, but there are other times when this may arise and it is a problem. And this causes you to have to do a bunch of messy dtml-call REQUEST.set's to set your vars correctly. I have learned how to deal with these things, but you are right, this is a problem with DTML and I can see how this exact issue helps make DTML messy and a little confusing. Great point. Thanks. Greg On 5/27/05, Lennart Regebro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/27/05, Greg Fischer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, aside from the fact that you cant use DTML in WYSIWYG editors, I still dont understand why it is not good. Well, the fact that you get everyting directly into the current namespace, especially with DTML-in, and things like that, is the real problem. But as noted, by making all data-gathering in a python script, the problems with this are less and survivable. -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/ -- Greg Fischer 1st Byte Solutions http://www.1stbyte.com ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] DTML in Zope 2 vs Zope 3
+---[ Jonathan Cyr ]-- | Damn users, using all this imperfect software. These Kids Today! ;-) | | Easy Big Fella, Whooa. | You must be new here We've all learnt to ignore Chris... He gets easily confused... or maybe he doesn't take his medication... not sure, but, ignoring him generally works for the best d8) -- Andrew Milton [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] DTML in Zope 2 vs Zope 3
David H wrote: I understand that DTML will be in Zope 3. My question is, do namespaces and context also migrate to Zope 3? If not, could break existing code? I would suggest that the chances of any DTML from Zope 2 working in Zope 3 are slim, at best ;-) Why DTML is IN Zope 3 in the first place is totally beyond me... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] DTML in Zope 2 vs Zope 3
Yellow, I think because of lazy people like me that prefer to use DTML in a fast way than go into a deep Python level to get the job done... I know that, eventually, one of these days I'll have to move on to Python only but until that day comes... DTML and a little bit of Python where needed suits me fine! :-) Regards Hugo On 5/25/05, Chris Withers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David H wrote: I understand that DTML will be in Zope 3. My question is, do namespaces and context also migrate to Zope 3? If not, could break existing code? I would suggest that the chances of any DTML from Zope 2 working in Zope 3 are slim, at best ;-) Why DTML is IN Zope 3 in the first place is totally beyond me... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) -- Hugo Ramos - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] DTML in Zope 2 vs Zope 3
Hugo Ramos wrote: Yellow, I think because of lazy people like me that prefer to use DTML in a fast way than go into a deep Python level to get the job done... I know that, eventually, one of these days I'll have to move on to Python only but until that day comes... DTML and a little bit of Python where needed suits me fine! :-) Regards Hugo Hugo, I figured as a dtml wiz a few years ago. Now I can't image doing w/out python scripts and suddenly DTML gives me a headache. I do think that DTML deserves a Hall of Fame Award but its time to move on. David ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] DTML in Zope 2 vs Zope 3
Yellow, I have the same feeling... Python should be the primary language used in Zope but let's not just cut the support on DTML leaving thousands out there spinning around and having to go into Python as fast as they can because DTML is not supported anymore. Changes take time... Getting used to Python only in Zope takes time... and I'm not so sure the employers out there are that kind allowing everybody to take time making the move. Regards Hugo On 5/26/05, David H [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hugo Ramos wrote: Yellow, I think because of lazy people like me that prefer to use DTML in a fast way than go into a deep Python level to get the job done... I know that, eventually, one of these days I'll have to move on to Python only but until that day comes... DTML and a little bit of Python where needed suits me fine! :-) Regards Hugo Hugo, I figured as a dtml wiz a few years ago. Now I can't image doing w/out python scripts and suddenly DTML gives me a headache. I do think that DTML deserves a Hall of Fame Award but its time to move on. David -- Hugo Ramos - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] DTML in Zope 2 vs Zope 3
I am just curious, why is DTML not good? It does 9 out of 10 things I want quite easily. From my perspective, I really dont want to learn new ways of doing things if this works. I also have no desire to do templating. I can see the need for it in a large development shop,but for me, a 1 guy operation, I have no desire to complicate things. DTML works so easy for me. I do use Python scripts here and there for small and odd things that would be difficult or impossible to do in DTML, but like I said, that's maybe only 10% max of the functionality that I need to provide. (probably 5-6%) Having to move everything in Python is a hassle that I dont plan on doing for a few years. I'll just keep using Zope 2. I'd also be curious to know from all you other developers, what percentage of tasks that you need to perform or functionality you need to provide can be provided simply with DTML? Like for me, I can do quickly and easily do 90% of what I need in DTML. Is DTML really that much harder to use? I understand the whole idea of separating the logic and the presentation, and I guess, is that part of the reason why DTML is not as good? But, for me, that separation is more complicated. DTML is easier for me. (partly because I know it) I dont know, DTML and the everythings an object concept in Zope are the very things that make Zope so attractive for a small time operator like me. I hate to see them deprecated just because it doesnt work for the larger companies out there. Of course, I may be totally ignorant about all this, huh? Anyway, starting to ramble... Thanks for any thoughts. Greg On 5/26/05, Hugo Ramos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yellow, I have the same feeling... Python should be the primary language used in Zope but let's not just cut the support on DTML leaving thousands out there spinning around and having to go into Python as fast as they can because DTML is not supported anymore. Changes take time... Getting used to Python only in Zope takes time... and I'm not so sure the employers out there are that kind allowing everybody to take time making the move. Regards Hugo On 5/26/05, David H [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hugo Ramos wrote: Yellow, I think because of lazy people like me that prefer to use DTML in a fast way than go into a deep Python level to get the job done... I know that, eventually, one of these days I'll have to move on to Python only but until that day comes... DTML and a little bit of Python where needed suits me fine! :-) Regards Hugo Hugo, I figured as a dtml wiz a few years ago. Now I can't image doing w/out python scripts and suddenly DTML gives me a headache. I do think that DTML deserves a Hall of Fame Award but its time to move on. David -- Hugo Ramos - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) -- Greg Fischer 1st Byte Solutions http://www.1stbyte.com ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] DTML in Zope 2 vs Zope 3
Greg Fischer wrote: I am just curious, why is DTML not good? It does 9 out of 10 things I want quite easily. From my perspective, I really dont want to learn new ways of doing things if this works. I also have no desire to do templating. I can see the need for it in a large development shop,but for me, a 1 guy operation, I have no desire to complicate things. DTML works so easy for me. I do use Python scripts here and there for small and odd things that would be difficult or impossible to do in DTML, but like I said, that's maybe only 10% max of the functionality that I need to provide. (probably 5-6%) Having to move everything in Python is a hassle that I dont plan on doing for a few years. I'll just keep using Zope 2. I'd also be curious to know from all you other developers, what percentage of tasks that you need to perform or functionality you need to provide can be provided simply with DTML? Like for me, I can do quickly and easily do 90% of what I need in DTML. Is DTML really that much harder to use? I understand the whole idea of separating the logic and the presentation, and I guess, is that part of the reason why DTML is not as good? But, for me, that separation is more complicated. DTML is easier for me. (partly because I know it) I dont know, DTML and the everythings an object concept in Zope are the very things that make Zope so attractive for a small time operator like me. I hate to see them deprecated just because it doesnt work for the larger companies out there. Of course, I may be totally ignorant about all this, huh? Anyway, starting to ramble... Thanks for any thoughts. Greg On 5/26/05, Hugo Ramos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yellow, I have the same feeling... Python should be the primary language used in Zope but let's not just cut the support on DTML leaving thousands out there spinning around and having to go into Python as fast as they can because DTML is not supported anymore. Changes take time... Getting used to Python only in Zope takes time... and I'm not so sure the employers out there are that kind allowing everybody to take time making the move. Regards Hugo On 5/26/05, David H [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hugo Ramos wrote: Yellow, I think because of lazy people like me that prefer to use DTML in a fast way than go into a deep Python level to get the job done... I know that, eventually, one of these days I'll have to move on to Python only but until that day comes... DTML and a little bit of Python where needed suits me fine! :-) Regards Hugo Hugo, I figured as a dtml wiz a few years ago. Now I can't image doing w/out python scripts and suddenly DTML gives me a headache. I do think that DTML deserves a Hall of Fame Award but its time to move on. David - Greg, I agree with you: I would not convert existing code to ZPT unless a client asked me to. I too, am a one man shop - been doing it that way for like 14 years. I just made the decision to use ZPT for all *new* projects. I didn't like it much at the beginning but now I wouldnt do w/out it. ZPT has a magic of its own, its amazing! Plus, it seems to do force the mind to think in ways compatible with the direction of web developement evolution. The problem with DTML is its too good for, well, its own good. :-D All best, David ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] DTML in Zope 2 vs Zope 3
Dne tvrtek, 26. kvtna 2005 22:03 Greg Fischer [EMAIL PROTECTED] napsal(a): I am just curious, why is DTML not good? It does 9 out of 10 things I want quite easily. From my perspective, I really dont want to learn new ways of doing things if this works. I also have no desire to do templating. I can see the need for it in a large development shop,but for me, a 1 guy operation, I have no desire to complicate things. DTML works so easy for me. I do use Python scripts here and there for small and odd things that would be difficult or impossible to do in DTML, but like I said, that's maybe only 10% max of the functionality that I need to provide. (probably 5-6%) Having to move everything in Python is a hassle that I dont plan on doing for a few years. I'll just keep using Zope 2. I'd also be curious to know from all you other developers, what percentage of tasks that you need to perform or functionality you need to provide can be provided simply with DTML? Like for me, I can do quickly and easily do 90% of what I need in DTML. Is DTML really that much harder to use? I understand the whole idea of separating the logic and the presentation, and I guess, is that part of the reason why DTML is not as good? But, for me, that separation is more complicated. DTML is easier for me. (partly because I know it) I dont know, DTML and the everythings an object concept in Zope are the very things that make Zope so attractive for a small time operator like me. I hate to see them deprecated just because it doesnt work for the larger companies out there. Of course, I may be totally ignorant about all this, huh? I absolutelly agree with you, it is like my words. But separation of logic and presentation could be done successfully in DTML too. ZPT, which have separation argument is not as easy to make totally separated design as marketing says, for example see Plone - try to customize plone site to absolutelly different custom design - it is near impossible. -- Jaroslav Lukesh --- This e-mail can not contain any viruses because I use Linux ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] DTML in Zope 2 vs Zope 3
I use DTML alot, I also code all my HTML/CSS by hand for control sake. If you use a Dreamweaver, et al, DTML requires tool tweaking, if it works at all. If you read HTML, and are aware of all of the browser quirks, DTML is quick and easy... New tags are easy, they stand out and quite common... ASP, PHP, Cold Fusion and more... and I found DTML to be a nicely thought out tagging extension of HTML. I keep my display logic in DTML and do scripting in PythonScripts. I never had a great reason to get into ZPT, it didn't add any value for me with my HTML background. Probably the 90/10 split as well. DTML works fine in Homesite. Never cared for the WYSIWIG tools. Two Cents, -Jon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Greg Fischer wrote: I am just curious, why is DTML not good? It does 9 out of 10 things I want quite easily. From my perspective, I really dont want to learn new ways of doing things if this works. I also have no desire to do templating. I can see the need for it in a large development shop,but for me, a 1 guy operation, I have no desire to complicate things. DTML works so easy for me. I do use Python scripts here and there for small and odd things that would be difficult or impossible to do in DTML, but like I said, that's maybe only 10% max of the functionality that I need to provide. (probably 5-6%) Having to move everything in Python is a hassle that I dont plan on doing for a few years. I'll just keep using Zope 2. I'd also be curious to know from all you other developers, what percentage of tasks that you need to perform or functionality you need to provide can be provided simply with DTML? Like for me, I can do quickly and easily do 90% of what I need in DTML. Is DTML really that much harder to use? I understand the whole idea of separating the logic and the presentation, and I guess, is that part of the reason why DTML is not as good? But, for me, that separation is more complicated. DTML is easier for me. (partly because I know it) I dont know, DTML and the "everythings an object" concept in Zope are the very things that make Zope so attractive for a small time operator like me. I hate to see them deprecated just because it doesnt work for the larger companies out there. Of course, I may be totally ignorant about all this, huh? Anyway, starting to ramble... Thanks for any thoughts. Greg On 5/26/05, Hugo Ramos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yellow, I have the same feeling... Python should be the primary language used in Zope but let's not just cut the support on DTML leaving thousands out there spinning around and having to go into Python as fast as they can because DTML is not supported anymore. Changes take time... Getting used to Python only in Zope takes time... and I'm not so sure the employers out there are that kind allowing everybody to take time making the move. Regards Hugo On 5/26/05, David H [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hugo Ramos wrote: Yellow, I think because of lazy people like me that prefer to use DTML in a fast way than go into a deep Python level to get the job done... I know that, eventually, one of these days I'll have to move on to Python only but until that day comes... DTML and a little bit of Python where needed suits me fine! :-) Regards Hugo Hugo, I figured as a dtml "wiz" a few years ago. Now I can't image doing w/out python scripts and suddenly DTML gives me a headache. I do think that DTML deserves a Hall of Fame Award but its time to move on. David -- Hugo Ramos - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] DTML in Zope 2 vs Zope 3
I agree, I find DTML great and s simple and clear. I wonder why Zopeheads hate this so much! Remy On 5/26/05, Jonathan Cyr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I use DTML alot, I also code all my HTML/CSS by hand for control sake. If you use a Dreamweaver, et al, DTML requires tool tweaking, if it works at all. If you read HTML, and are aware of all of the browser quirks, DTML is quick and easy... New tags are easy, they stand out and quite common... ASP, PHP, Cold Fusion and more... and I found DTML to be a nicely thought out tagging extension of HTML. I keep my display logic in DTML and do scripting in PythonScripts. I never had a great reason to get into ZPT, it didn't add any value for me with my HTML background. Probably the 90/10 split as well. DTML works fine in Homesite. Never cared for the WYSIWIG tools. Two Cents, -Jon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Greg Fischer wrote: I am just curious, why is DTML not good? It does 9 out of 10 things I want quite easily. From my perspective, I really dont want to learn new ways of doing things if this works. I also have no desire to do templating. I can see the need for it in a large development shop,but for me, a 1 guy operation, I have no desire to complicate things. DTML works so easy for me. I do use Python scripts here and there for small and odd things that would be difficult or impossible to do in DTML, but like I said, that's maybe only 10% max of the functionality that I need to provide. (probably 5-6%) Having to move everything in Python is a hassle that I dont plan on doing for a few years. I'll just keep using Zope 2. I'd also be curious to know from all you other developers, what percentage of tasks that you need to perform or functionality you need to provide can be provided simply with DTML? Like for me, I can do quickly and easily do 90% of what I need in DTML. Is DTML really that much harder to use? I understand the whole idea of separating the logic and the presentation, and I guess, is that part of the reason why DTML is not as good? But, for me, that separation is more complicated. DTML is easier for me. (partly because I know it) I dont know, DTML and the everythings an object concept in Zope are the very things that make Zope so attractive for a small time operator like me. I hate to see them deprecated just because it doesnt work for the larger companies out there. Of course, I may be totally ignorant about all this, huh? Anyway, starting to ramble... Thanks for any thoughts. Greg On 5/26/05, Hugo Ramos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yellow, I have the same feeling... Python should be the primary language used in Zope but let's not just cut the support on DTML leaving thousands out there spinning around and having to go into Python as fast as they can because DTML is not supported anymore. Changes take time... Getting used to Python only in Zope takes time... and I'm not so sure the employers out there are that kind allowing everybody to take time making the move. Regards Hugo On 5/26/05, David H [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hugo Ramos wrote: Yellow, I think because of lazy people like me that prefer to use DTML in a fast way than go into a deep Python level to get the job done... I know that, eventually, one of these days I'll have to move on to Python only but until that day comes... DTML and a little bit of Python where needed suits me fine! :-) Regards Hugo Hugo, I figured as a dtml wiz a few years ago. Now I can't image doing w/out python scripts and suddenly DTML gives me a headache. I do think that DTML deserves a Hall of Fame Award but its time to move on. David -- Hugo Ramos - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
