Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Re: Selecting a code name
Alexander Limi wrote: On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 22:11:31 -0800, kit BLAKE [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (Are you going French style with your last name in all caps, Kit? :) 2006/2/8, Martin Aspeli [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Zope^3 :) That's brilliant. It works in ASCII, or in normal text in a paragraph of a magazine. Now, try it in a few different typefaces, and make it big. Zope^3 is *far* more visually interesting than 'Zope3'. +1. Zope^3 is visually interesting enough, and geeky enough. While procrastinating Real Work, I played with a logo based on this idea. It's very rough--a more refined version would probably eliminate the 3D effects. But it's something to talk about, anyway. It has a cube-Z instead of a circle-Z, it has color, and it has the cool caret. I've attached it. Shane ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
Shane Hathaway wrote: Alexander Limi wrote: +1. Zope^3 is visually interesting enough, and geeky enough. While procrastinating Real Work, I played with a logo based on this idea. It's very rough--a more refined version would probably eliminate the 3D effects. But it's something to talk about, anyway. It has a cube-Z instead of a circle-Z, it has color, and it has the cool caret. I've attached it. Apropros procrastinating. Here is another quick take. The cube is implied by the two squares. -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science attachment: zope-3-cubed.jpg ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
Alexander Limi wrote: On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 00:32:52 -0800, Martin Aspeli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Like it or not, Zope (2) seems to have a lot of stigma out there; Zope 3 has been around a while. In actual fact, for a while I thought Zope 3.x was still just unfinished vapourware, waiting for the fabled Zope2 integration (the dropping of the X) that people were talking about. The way it was done was also incredibly unprofessional and created a lot of confusion: Quoting from http://www.zope.org/DevHome/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/Zope320: It is our opinion that Zope 3 is more than ready for production use, which is why we decided to drop the X for experimental from the name. Problem is, the X was never about whether Zope was ready for production use - it had been *explicitly assigned* as a marker that meant Zope 2 migration/support was not there yet. A lot of people actually believed this would happen (as the Zope roadmap and PR spiel told them so), even though all of us knew it wouldn't happen. (I know the reasons, I know the plans for convergence, I know how Five works - I'm just pointing out that this part made a lot of people lose faith in Zope) I'll defend myself, as I was the one who argued for dropping that X. Let me first give the full context of that quote; perhaps it wasn't in the Zope 3.2 release notes, but it was there in Zope 3.1: It is in our opinion that Zope 3.1 is more than ready for production use, which is why we decided to drop the X for experimental from the name. We will also continue to work on making the transition between Zope 2 and Zope 3 as smooth as possible. As a first step, Zope 2.8 includes Zope 3 features in the form of Five. I think that the full context rather weakens your suggestion that this done in an incredibly unprofessional way. Now as to history of that X. From an old document about security when it was still X3, not 3X: 1b. Zope 3X is the preliminary version of Zope 3. It is built from the ground up, paying attention to the lessons learned from Zope 2 and CMF. It is not a product but intended to let developers get familiar with the new architecture early. 1c. Zope 3 is the mainline release intended for production use and including backwards compatibility to Zope 2. I hope that this makes clear that you are wrong about the X never having anything to do with production use; it was connected. This is what was said back in 2003 in the release note for a milestone release: What is Zope X3? It's Zope 3 experimental. This is the release that will provide the new features of Zope 3 without any Zope 2 support. Zope 3.0 will provide support for Zope 2 content and products, probably using conversion utilities of some sort. For the X3 beta, the message was presented as such: Zope X3 is the next major Zope release and has been written from scratch based on the latest software design patterns and the experiences of Zope 2. The X in the name stands for experimental, since this release does not try to provide any backward-compatibility to Zope 2. with the subtle difference that we couldn't ever say Zope 3 was non experimental *unless* it has Zope 2 compatibility features. The main problem with the X was that everybody has their own interpretation for what it means. None of the interpretations was entirely wrong, or right: * 'X' stands for 'eXperimental'. * The 'X' will be dropped when Zope 3 is ready for production use. * We drop the X when we have backwards compatibility with Zope 2 in Zope 3. * We drop the X when there's migration support for Zope 2 content to Zope 3. * We drop the X when there's a migration path to Zope 3 from Zope 2. Zope 3.2 today is not experimental. It is ready for production use. Full backwards compatibility with Zope 2 isn't going to appear; *full* compatibility was never exactly promised, but people got that impression from the vague message, but we knew damn well by Zope 3.1 that it wasn't going to happen that way. It's hard to predict the future anyway. A migration path for generic Zope 2 content also isn't likely to appear, as that means you have to port your applications forward first if your application has its own content types, which most significant Zope 2 applications do. It will presumably happen for particular Zope 2 applications who are prepared (Silva for instance has had full XML export abilities for years), but not for arbitrary Zope 2 content. Additionally, the version numbering scheme with an X in it (it even moved; Zope X3, Zope 3X) is non-standard and thus *invites* misinterpretation in all kinds of ways. And then after you drop the X from Zope X3.4, you're going to go back and call it Zope 3.0? I therefore argued for dropping the X. The X was broken and was doing damage. I'm not going to be able to sell experimental software not ready for production use to my customers. Better correct the message now
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
On Wed, 08 Feb 2006 03:16:22 -0800, Martijn Faassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Zope X3 is the next major Zope release and has been written from scratch based on the latest software design patterns and the experiences of Zope 2. The X in the name stands for experimental, since this release does not try to provide any backward-compatibility to Zope 2. with the subtle difference that we couldn't ever say Zope 3 was non experimental *unless* it has Zope 2 compatibility features. This is the one I (and several others) read and the one I saw interpreted on websites. Hence the confusion. Now let's forget about that damn X. It's history. Yup, thanks for providing the full view. The complexity of your post further reinforces how confusing the situation is, even to an almost-insider. -- _ Alexander Limi · Chief Architect · Plone Solutions · Norway Consulting · Training · Development · http://www.plonesolutions.com _ Plone Co-Founder · http://plone.org · Connecting Content Plone Foundation · http://plone.org/foundation · Protecting Plone ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
On Tue, Feb 07, 2006 at 03:37:45PM -0700, Shane Hathaway wrote: Alexander Limi wrote: The original discussion never suggested code names for releases, but a brand name to help Zope 3 separate itself from Zope 2 - since it is a *completely* different beast. Random thought... hehe... Zope Cubed. It's only a typographical change from Zope 3. The tagline would be Zope, raised to a higher power! It's a vague reference to cubicles, where enterprise developers usually work. It's also a vague reference to Cubism, which lets the viewer see many perspectives from a single viewpoint, like Zope 3, which lets the developer accomplish many objectives using a single framework. :-) This sloagan pops up in my mind: Zope^3 - Think out of the box! -- __ Nothing is as subjective as reality Reinoud van Leeuwen[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.xs4all.nl/~reinoud __ ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 00:59 -0500, Fred Drake wrote: So why not say it's about XP and make it Zope XP 3.x.y? It sounds too much 'Windows XP' like for my taste. Alen ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Hyping Zope3 contest? (was: Selecting a code name)
This sloagan pops up in my mind: Zope^3 - Think out of the box! Very nice, but writing Zope^3 is too complicated, I hardly know where to find the ^ on my keyboard. ;-) I suggest that we start trying to writing it Zope3, without any spaces, and that any logo will use a raised 3. If people pronounce this as three or cubed is up to them. ;-) Now, who can organise this hype-contest that everybody seemed tothink was a good idea? -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/ ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Automated compatibility tests
Being a long time Product developer for Zope 2, I constantly have a big problem with checking compatibility for my products with different Python-Zope-Plone-Product combinations. It is also impossible to guess from the Products on zope.org and Plone.org which versions works with what. As far as I can see, the only reasonable solution to this is to automate the task with some kind of testrunner. I can make this testrunner for my own products. But it would be far better if there was a standard way to do it, so that it is possible to check different version with each other across developers and platforms. It could be nice to avoid this same problem in Zope 3, or perhaps even to find a way to retrofit it to Zope 2. If I develop a product to run on Zope 3.2, and my customers are using this product, I might not test it on 3.3 or 3.4 later on, as I don't really have any reason to. So the product could be broken without anybody knowing it before trying it out. If there where automated compatibility tests it would be possible to see when a product was no longer usable. If I then were to update my product, I would also be able to se if my new changes would break compatibility with older versions. It would also be a way for core developers to test if their changes in their next Zope version breaks anything in 3. party products. That would at least give them a chance to decide to work around it. The test should include unittest, functional test, migrations of content from older product versions etc. But I imagine that we would need some kind of meta framework for setting up tests on a product version per zope version basis. A result like this would be sweet for everybody: Zope version3.23.33.4 myProduct 1.2 x x myProduct 1.1x x myProduct 1.0x Does anybody have an idea as to what is necessary to do these automated tests, or links to previous efforts in this direction? I imagine something like the testrunner that is currently testing out Zope. Or am I the only one seing this as a problem that should be automated? -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Automated compatibility tests
Max M wrote: Being a long time Product developer for Zope 2, I constantly have a big problem with checking compatibility for my products with different Python-Zope-Plone-Product combinations. It is also impossible to guess from the Products on zope.org and Plone.org which versions works with what. As far as I can see, the only reasonable solution to this is to automate the task with some kind of testrunner. I can make this testrunner for my own products. But it would be far better if there was a standard way to do it, so that it is possible to check different version with each other across developers and platforms. It could be nice to avoid this same problem in Zope 3, or perhaps even to find a way to retrofit it to Zope 2. If I develop a product to run on Zope 3.2, and my customers are using this product, I might not test it on 3.3 or 3.4 later on, as I don't really have any reason to. So the product could be broken without anybody knowing it before trying it out. If there where automated compatibility tests it would be possible to see when a product was no longer usable. If I then were to update my product, I would also be able to se if my new changes would break compatibility with older versions. It would also be a way for core developers to test if their changes in their next Zope version breaks anything in 3. party products. That would at least give them a chance to decide to work around it. The test should include unittest, functional test, migrations of content from older product versions etc. But I imagine that we would need some kind of meta framework for setting up tests on a product version per zope version basis. A result like this would be sweet for everybody: Zope version3.23.33.4 myProduct 1.2 x x myProduct 1.1x x myProduct 1.0x Does anybody have an idea as to what is necessary to do these automated tests, or links to previous efforts in this direction? I imagine something like the testrunner that is currently testing out Zope. Or am I the only one seing this as a problem that should be automated? I think buildbot fills this need very well, like http://buildbot.zope.org/ or http://buildbot.nuxeo.org/ Tarek ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Automated compatibility tests
Tarek Ziadé wrote: Or am I the only one seing this as a problem that should be automated? I think buildbot fills this need very well, like http://buildbot.zope.org/ or http://buildbot.nuxeo.org/ Nah, Max is after something different, and I agree with him that it would be great if it could be done automatically, but I suspect it'll best be done by hand... Just 'cos the tests pass doesn't mean it works ;-) cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: Automated compatibility tests
Tarek Ziadé wrote: I think buildbot fills this need very well, like http://buildbot.zope.org/ or http://buildbot.nuxeo.org/ I was aware of http://buildbot.zope.org/ but I though it was an internally developed tool. It certainly goes a long way in getting there. Though it might be a bit much of a setup for the single developer. A shared system where every product in a svn/tags would be tested would probably be ideal. I will check it out. It is at least suitable for my own use. -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Automated compatibility tests
Max M wrote: Tarek Ziadé wrote: I think buildbot fills this need very well, like http://buildbot.zope.org/ or http://buildbot.nuxeo.org/ I was aware of http://buildbot.zope.org/ but I though it was an internally developed tool. Nope, it's a python product. python-dev even use it too now, see http://www.python.org/dev/buildbot/ It certainly goes a long way in getting there. Though it might be a bit much of a setup for the single developer. A shared system where every product in a svn/tags would be tested would probably be ideal. I will check it out. It is at least suitable for my own use. Yup, it is a bit long to set up but if you have a spare computer where you can set up all environnements where you want to test your different product versions, it is very nice indeed. ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Automated compatibility tests
Chris Withers wrote: Tarek Ziadé wrote: Or am I the only one seing this as a problem that should be automated? I think buildbot fills this need very well, like http://buildbot.zope.org/ or http://buildbot.nuxeo.org/ Nah, Max is after something different, and I agree with him that it would be great if it could be done automatically, but I suspect it'll best be done by hand... Just 'cos the tests pass doesn't mean it works ;-) check out your coverage score then ;) cheers, Chris ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: Automated compatibility tests
Chris Withers wrote: Tarek Ziadé wrote: Or am I the only one seing this as a problem that should be automated? I think buildbot fills this need very well, like http://buildbot.zope.org/ or http://buildbot.nuxeo.org/ Nah, Max is after something different, and I agree with him that it would be great if it could be done automatically, but I suspect it'll best be done by hand... Just 'cos the tests pass doesn't mean it works ;-) One could imagine that unittests and creative use of testbrowser would be a big help. I have product where contacts can be turned into Plone members. In Plone 2.1 a script called validate_registration was removed, and so my product breaks. Now I have people asking what is wrong with with my product. A problem like that would certainly have been caught by functional tests. If the aforementioned compatibility list was available they would at least be able to see the that the current product version is officially incompatible. -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Automated compatibility tests
Tarek Ziadé wrote: [snip buildbot] Yup, it is a bit long to set up but if you have a spare computer where you can set up all environnements where you want to test your different product versions, it is very nice indeed. And now that VMware Server is free (no charge, not open) you can run those environments on different OSs: http://www.vmware.com/news/releases/server_beta.html -- Benji York Senior Software Engineer Zope Corporation ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Hyping Zope3 contest? (was: Selecting a code name)
On Feb 8, 2006, at 7:53 AM, Lennart Regebro wrote: Now, who can organise this hype-contest that everybody seemed tothink was a good idea? It wasn't a mandate. I got three kinds of responses (publicly and privately): 1 Yes, go for it. 2 If we split it up so that it's not a website contest but a contest for individual elements (logo, copy, concept, layout) then yes, go for it. 3 We're already making an effort on something like this on the zope- web list and elsewhere. (I interpreted this as no, don't do it.) I think the split-up contest--response 2--that Joel Moxley proposed on the list and others proposed privately to me sounds good. If others feel that it would stomp on their efforts, though, I'm not thrilled about angering people who have already spent significant time. I'd like them to step up and be involved, at least to bless the contest, and ideally to be a part of it. If they don't want it, then they should say so and see if we can work out a compromise. We already have two logo entries. :-) If I don't see any conversation or disagreement about this--or an offer from the ones already working on this stuff to organize the contest--then I'll propose an invitation email in a day or two. Gary ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Sum of Decimals
My content object A has attributes 'cost' 'tax' - Decimal (from decimal). I try: A.cost + A.tax --- security error '+' method for Decimal-class. I solve problem by 'zope.proxy.removeAllProxies' , but i think it's bad. What other ways are exist? i get Zope3 from trunk and not find 'decimal'-package in 'zope/app/globalmodules.zcml'. Why? ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Do we really want Zope 3 marketing talk isolated on zope-web?
I'm not sure shuffling the hype and Zope 3 marketing conversations to zope-web is a good idea. I'm not trying to fix zope.org (eek), and I'm not trying to improve the Zope 2 image (though that would be nice too). I, and I think others, are interested in marketing Zope 3. As such, are we really such a big group that we should divide up onto a *third* list (zope3-users, zope3-dev, and zope-web)? I haven't signed up there yet, myself. I feel like going off isolates the people working on the marketing stuff: new blood doesn't see the work and possibly join in; and old easily-annoyed-and-unsubscribed-to-yet- another-freaking-list blood doesn't have visibility of the work. Yes, this has been a lot of email messages, but I'd rather hang out together. Thoughts? Gary ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: [Zope3-Users] Do we really want Zope 3 marketing talk isolated on zope-web?
Gary Poster wrote: Yes, this has been a lot of email messages, but I'd rather hang out together. Please. Just the split/cross posting between -dev and -users is annoying enough. -- Benji York Senior Software Engineer Zope Corporation ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Sum of Decimals
On Wednesday 08 February 2006 13:43, Garanin Michael wrote: My content object A has attributes 'cost' 'tax' - Decimal (from decimal). I try: A.cost + A.tax --- security error '+' method for Decimal-class. I solve problem by 'zope.proxy.removeAllProxies' , but i think it's bad. What other ways are exist? i get Zope3 from trunk and not find 'decimal'-package in 'zope/app/globalmodules.zcml'. Why? Decimal is a new type and we have not yet declared it to be a rock. This can be done in your custom code and also add an issue, because we need to do that for the next release. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: Do we really want Zope 3 marketing talk isolated on zope-web?
Gary Poster wrote: I'm not sure shuffling the hype and Zope 3 marketing conversations to zope-web is a good idea. I'm not trying to fix zope.org (eek), and I'm not trying to improve the Zope 2 image (though that would be nice too). I, and I think others, are interested in marketing Zope 3. As such, are we really such a big group that we should divide up onto a *third* list (zope3-users, zope3-dev, and zope-web)? I haven't signed up there yet, myself. I feel like going off isolates the people working on the marketing stuff: new blood doesn't see the work and possibly join in; and old easily-annoyed-and-unsubscribed-to-yet- another-freaking-list blood doesn't have visibility of the work. Yes, this has been a lot of email messages, but I'd rather hang out together. Thoughts? 'Zope-web' has always been the list to talk about zope websites related stuff (there's just been zope.org until now). If its about scope and implementation it should be on zope-web. Working on marketing stuff (and i think you are talking about content and direction here) could as well happen in zope3-dev or zope3-users lists. Michael -- http://zope.org/Members/d2m http://planetzope.org ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Broken homefolder tests
Am Dienstag, 7. Februar 2006 23:48 schrieb Roger Ineichen: Hi Stephan [...] No, this is usually painful tracking down. You could check for test setup code that assigns AttributeAnnotatable to File. Also note that there is no good way for tearing down classImplements() statements. So this issue potentially exists in many places. I think for now it would be okay to add the declaration to the test setup. Ok, I will take a look at this next week. Have a nice week Thanks for fixing that! Florian ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Do we really want Zope 3 marketing talk isolated on zope-web?
Michael Haubenwallner wrote: Gary Poster wrote: I'm not sure shuffling the hype and Zope 3 marketing conversations to zope-web is a good idea. I'm not trying to fix zope.org (eek), and I'm not trying to improve the Zope 2 image (though that would be nice too). I, and I think others, are interested in marketing Zope 3. As such, are we really such a big group that we should divide up onto a *third* list (zope3-users, zope3-dev, and zope-web)? I haven't signed up there yet, myself. I feel like going off isolates the people working on the marketing stuff: new blood doesn't see the work and possibly join in; and old easily-annoyed-and-unsubscribed-to-yet- another-freaking-list blood doesn't have visibility of the work. Yes, this has been a lot of email messages, but I'd rather hang out together. Thoughts? 'Zope-web' has always been the list to talk about zope websites related stuff (there's just been zope.org until now). If its about scope and implementation it should be on zope-web. Working on marketing stuff (and i think you are talking about content and direction here) could as well happen in zope3-dev or zope3-users lists. Right, marketing is more than website things, I know that a lot of people here don't like to have a lot of mailing lists but, can't we have a zope-com dedicated mailing list ? So people that are talking about marketing stuff or buzz tactics on other lists are just sent over that mailing list ? Maybe we can also promote important mailing list on zope.org on the mailing lists page, by putting them on the top of the page, and BIGGER main mailing lists: -dev -users -com -web more mailing list: .. Tarek Michael ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
On Feb 7, 2006, at 5:19 AM, Stephan Richter wrote: On Tuesday 07 February 2006 05:09, Jeff Shell wrote: Alright, I've stayed up way too late on this. Jeff, you always make great points! I would like to nominate you as the Zope 3 Propaganda Minister! :-) No seriously, you have a great way of explaining why Zope 3 is better than the latest hype; I think you are probably the best qualified to lead the marketing efforts? Are you willing? Anyone seconding me? :-) +2 :^) -- Rob Page V: 540 361 1710 Zope Corporation F: 703 995 0412 ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Hyping Zope3 contest? (was: Selecting a code name)
On 2/8/06, Gary Poster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the split-up contest--response 2--that Joel Moxley proposed on the list and others proposed privately to me sounds good. If others feel that it would stomp on their efforts, though, I'm not thrilled about angering people who have already spent significant time. Well... if they have spent time on it, they should have a good head start. ;-) But I understand what you mean. I'd like them to step up and be involved, at least to bless the contest, and ideally to be a part of it. If they don't want it, then they should say so and see if we can work out a compromise. Right. -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/ ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] Re: Automated compatibility tests
+1 Max M! I have this problem in a big way. http://zopewiki.org/VersionsMatrix is a manual equivalent. ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Sum of Decimals
On Wed, Feb 08, 2006 at 11:08:57AM -0500, Stephan Richter wrote: Decimal is a new type and we have not yet declared it to be a rock. What is a rock? -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Sum of Decimals
Paul Winkler wrote: On Wed, Feb 08, 2006 at 11:08:57AM -0500, Stephan Richter wrote: Decimal is a new type and we have not yet declared it to be a rock. What is a rock? A rock is an immutable object with no insecure methods. Trusted code can pass a bare rock to untrusted code with no fear that the object will be modified or used for breaking out of the security model. Numbers and strings are rocks. Shane ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Hyping Zope3 contest? (was: Selecting a code name)
2006/2/8, Lennart Regebro [EMAIL PROTECTED]: This slogan pops up in my mind: Zope^3 - Think out of the box! Very nice, but writing Zope^3 is too complicated, I hardly know where to find the ^ on my keyboard. ;-) Lennart, you must be sending your 'courriels' with a French keyboard. The caret can't be too hard to locate, the French invented it. :^) kit ps: limi, the capped last name has nothing to do with a French cherie, the Asian countries have embraced the practice for us limited-character-set Westerners. You should know that, ahem -- kit BLAKE Infrae · infrae.com · +31 10 243 7051 Hoevestraat 10 · 3033GC · Rotterdam · The Netherlands ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Hyping Zope3 contest? (was: Selecting a code name)
On 2/8/06, kit BLAKE [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lennart, you must be sending your 'courriels' with a French keyboard. Yes. But I use a Swedish keyboard layout. :-) ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] 'Adding' view for container
In 3.2 version 'Adding'-view for container was 'zope.app.container.browser.adding.ContentAdding' class but in new trunk version it's 'Adding' class. 'ContentAdding'-deprecated (such as 'add_content'-menu) and must be removed or it's bug? ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Zope3-dev] WebDAV
Hi All, I have being quite busy lately trying to improve WebDAV support for Zope3. To this end I have two proposals worth your consideration. I don't yet have access to the proposals area of zope.org but I have put them up in my home folder on zope.org for the time being. They are: WebDAV Interfaces, Widgets and Adapters http://www.zope.org/Members/mkerrin/WebDAVInterfacesWidgetsAndAdapters This defines changes that I see has crucial but which introduce nasty backwards compatibility problems. So it would be handy to know who has developed any custom extension to zope.app.dav be it a custom adapter to zope.app.dav.interfaces.IDAVSchema or who have developed a custom WebDAV namespace (these are the two likely areas for problems). I am hoping that this figure is small :-) WebDAV? Namespace Management http://www.zope.org/Members/mkerrin/WebDAVProposal/wikipage_view Here I define how, and why, I am planning to manage a WebDAV namespace. This includes how to find which properties are defined on a object, and what widget to use to display the property, and how to extend an already registered WebDAV namespace. My goal for all this has being to develop zope.app.dav to a point where it can handle all of the WebDAV protocol details according to the RFC2518 specification, while only requiring a minimal knowledge of WebDAV from developers who just wish to integrate WebDAV protocol into there application. Also I have being doing a lot of reading of specifications and by using these changes I hope to begin development of other WebDAV protocols once I have finished with the core WebDAV support. Hope you like it, and any improvements / comments will be most appreciated. Michael -- Michael Kerrin 55 Fitzwilliam Sq., Dublin 2. Tel: 087 688 3894 ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
RE: [Zope3-dev] Broken homefolder tests
Hi Florian [...] [...] No, this is usually painful tracking down. You could check for test setup code that assigns AttributeAnnotatable to File. Also note that there is no good way for tearing down classImplements() statements. So this issue potentially exists in many places. I think for now it would be okay to add the declaration to the test setup. Ok, I will take a look at this next week. Have a nice week Thanks for fixing that! no problem, that's not really your fault. It's a bad testing teardown concept in z3. We don't really teardown classImplements. This means in your situation the test where only broken if you run the test only for the homefolder package. But the z3 tests running all together where OK. I'm sure you tested the package before you did a commit. I recognized this only because I don't use the bugtracker in our setup. Regards Roger Ieichen Florian ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/dev%40projekt01.ch ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
On 2/7/06, Jeff Shell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Something that I admire about Ruby on Rails, Django, MochiKit, and TurboGears all is that they're opinionated, proud of it, clear in their message, and all seem to have a similar degree of respect for simplicity and communication. Hi! Just a (recent) example from TG : I've set up a CafePress store for all that TurboGears swag you've been dying to have! It's under construction (the store header is not ideal, and the G-gear needs some fixing up before it goes well on t-shirts), but it's fully functional given that CafePress does all of the actual work. Thanks to Richard Koorb (who we have to thank for our shiny new graphics as it is), there are a couple of shirt designs specifically for PyCon 2006! That's why I wanted to let you all know about the store before it's even done... there's realistically only a few days to order one of those shirts to get it in time for PyCon. http://store.turbogears.org or if that's not working for you yet: http://www.cafepress.com/turbogears -- Sébastien Douche [EMAIL PROTECTED] XPDay France le 23 24 Mars 2006 - séminaire sur l'agilité. Venez découvrir les méthodes agiles // http://www.xp-france.net ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Do we really want Zope 3 marketing talk isolated on zope-web?
On 2/8/06, Tarek Ziadé [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right, marketing is more than website things, I know that a lot of people here don't like to have a lot of mailing lists but, can't we have a zope-com dedicated mailing list ? +1 to centralize the discussions on an devoded mailing list. Marketing aspect and communication with others Python projects are essential, imho. Maybe we can also promote important mailing list on zope.org on the mailing lists page, by putting them on the top of the page, and BIGGER Oh, this is a zope-web discussion ;) -- Sébastien Douche [EMAIL PROTECTED] XPDay France le 23 24 Mars 2006 - séminaire sur l'agilité. Venez découvrir les méthodes agiles // http://www.xp-france.net ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Do we really want Zope 3 marketing talk isolated on zope-web?
Hey, No, the marketing talk should stay wherever it is. Only the people who want to fix the marketing situation by working on building a better zope.org should go to zope-web. If you want to make sure that the new zope.org is going to work with your marketing suggestions, you'd better help out the website effort though. :) Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Do we really want Zope 3 marketing talk isolated on zope-web?
Michael Haubenwallner wrote: Gary Poster wrote: I'm not sure shuffling the hype and Zope 3 marketing conversations to zope-web is a good idea. I'm not trying to fix zope.org (eek), and I'm not trying to improve the Zope 2 image (though that would be nice too). I, and I think others, are interested in marketing Zope 3. As such, are we really such a big group that we should divide up onto a *third* list (zope3-users, zope3-dev, and zope-web)? I haven't signed up there yet, myself. I feel like going off isolates the people working on the marketing stuff: new blood doesn't see the work and possibly join in; and old easily-annoyed-and-unsubscribed-to-yet- another-freaking-list blood doesn't have visibility of the work. Yes, this has been a lot of email messages, but I'd rather hang out together. Thoughts? 'Zope-web' has always been the list to talk about zope websites related stuff (there's just been zope.org until now). If its about scope and implementation it should be on zope-web. Working on marketing stuff (and i think you are talking about content and direction here) could as well happen in zope3-dev or zope3-users lists. Right, zope-web is for working together and building a better web presence for Zope. I happen to believe that this is absolutely essential, vital, and integral to marketing Zope. It's the core of how we present ourselves, and everything else is less than secondary, if done in isolation from a better communication on what Zope is, what it's good for, etc. Evidently a lot of people disagree with me on this, and think that fixing these other aspects of Zope marketing first will work better. I haven't really seen an explanation for how that would work while we retain the present zope.org as the only web presence Zope 2 and Zope 3 have. Somehow people don't seem to be discussing other activities much in the recent threads, such as the writing intro text, of tutorials, designing and presenting screencasts, gathering links and other information. So, if you just want to chat about marketing, there's no need at all to go to zope-web. Perhaps you shouldn't in fact, as it might distract us from the core task at hand there, which is zope.org. If you agree with me that the website is the core problem we need to tackle (and the other issues will come along with it), then please join zope-web and help us write text, organize a website, refine a website layout, and so on. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Hyping Zope3 contest? (was: Selecting a code name)
Gary Poster wrote: [snip] I think the split-up contest--response 2--that Joel Moxley proposed on the list and others proposed privately to me sounds good. I'm not really thrilled about that idea. Marketing needs to be a unified message, and if you split it up you'll likely end up with a hodgepodge. You also risk everybody doing the easy parts and nobody working on the parts that cost some energy. A contest for website ideas (with a bunch of webpages in a layout and with some good text and graphics) sounds better. It's more likely to result in one of more visions we can live with. If you're interested in new names for Zope, logos, and so on, that's fine, as you can present it in the context of a larger message. Currently I'm not at all convinced we need an additional name for Zope 3 or work on the logo, but a good presentation could definitely change my mind. A mockup of a homepage and a bunch of subpages, together with the textual part of the marketing message shouldn't be too big a hindrance to get a few good submissions. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Re: Selecting a code name
Alexander Limi wrote: 3.x was still just unfinished vapourware, waiting for the fabled Zope2 integration (the dropping of the X) that people were talking about. The way it was done was also incredibly unprofessional and created a lot of confusion: Oh don't be so rediculous. No-one ever said how Zope 2 integration would happen. It became obvious to many that Five was the way, as such, there was no need for the X anymore. There was a _lot_ of discussion about this... Problem is, the X was never about whether Zope was ready for production use - it had been *explicitly assigned* as a marker that meant Zope 2 migration/support was not there yet. That was never actually firmly established. Some people thought that, but others didn't, and in the end, Five is the way it's happening, so there's no need for the X however you look at it, which is why it was dropped. (I know the reasons, I know the plans for convergence, I know how Five works - I'm just pointing out that this part made a lot of people lose faith in Zope) Oh well, their loss... I don't feel the same need to whore our community out that some people in this thread seems to be focusing on. Zope 2 or 3 are both good tools, and they stand up well without the need for fancy marketing. I'm all for letting the code speak. If Zope gels with people, yay for them, any long may they enjoy it. If it doesn't, yay for them still, I hope they find something that does. That's not to put a dampener on the happy positive people trying to help here, but whining why the X was or wasn't dropped doesn't seem to have any positive benefit... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Hyping Zope3 contest? (was: Selecting a code name)
On Feb 8, 2006, at 6:34 PM, Martijn Faassen wrote: Gary Poster wrote: [snip] I think the split-up contest--response 2--that Joel Moxley proposed on the list and others proposed privately to me sounds good. I'm not really thrilled about that idea. Marketing needs to be a unified message, and if you split it up you'll likely end up with a hodgepodge. You also risk everybody doing the easy parts and nobody working on the parts that cost some energy. A contest for website ideas (with a bunch of webpages in a layout and with some good text and graphics) sounds better. It's more likely to result in one of more visions we can live with. If you're interested in new names for Zope, logos, and so on, that's fine, as you can present it in the context of a larger message. Currently I'm not at all convinced we need an additional name for Zope 3 or work on the logo, but a good presentation could definitely change my mind. A mockup of a homepage and a bunch of subpages, together with the textual part of the marketing message shouldn't be too big a hindrance to get a few good submissions. You say this in your other message: Somehow people don't seem to be discussing other activities much in the recent threads, such as the writing intro text, of tutorials, designing and presenting screencasts, gathering links and other information. Seems like just the sort of individual things that a split-up competition would be good for, to me. Add in something silly, like most fun logo or silliest slogan, just for spice, and it even sounds like you have a nice balance of categories. Your list also sounds like things that can be done out of the context of a grand website effort, and used as useful raw materials for such an effort. Whatever, I was only volunteering to try and help. I'm beyond, beyond swamped. I'm thrilled that folks are working on the zope.org site. Thank you. Perhaps other loose boutique sites, as I had envisioned, for individual projects such as the Zope 3 effort, can grow at a later time. Gary ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Selecting a code name
Martin Aspeli wrote: Ick! Why is this Nabble thing sending HTML mail :-( Yesterday it did. Today it doesn't. We used to use multipart but in the new release that we just uploaded, everyting is in text mode. You also now have to be subscribed to post to a mail list. If you notice any problems or have suggestions for enhancements, let us know. Regards, Rod Morris Nabble.com -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Selecting-a-code-name-t1063275.html#a2826269 Sent from the Zope3 - dev forum at Nabble.com. ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] Selecting a code name
Martin Aspeli wrote: Ick! Why is this Nabble thing sending HTML mail :-( Yesterday it did. Today it doesn't. We used to use multipart but in the new release that we just uploaded, everyting is in text mode. You also now have to be subscribed to post to a mail list. If you notice any problems or have suggestions for enhancements, let us know. Regards, Rod Morris Nabble.com -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Selecting-a-code-name-t1063275.html#a2826268 Sent from the Zope3 - dev forum at Nabble.com. ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
