On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 22:19:21 EDT "Devon H. O'Dell"
wrote:
> 2009/4/16 Bakul Shah :
> > Why not give each user a virtual plan9? Not like vmware/qemu
> > but more like FreeBSD's jail(8), "done more elegantly"[TM]!
> > To deal with potentially malicious users you can virtualize
> > resources, backe
The other thought that comes to mind is to consider something
like class based queuing (from the networking world). That
is, allow choice of different allocation/scheduling/resource
use policies and allow further subdivision.
As with jail, this is also present in FreeBSD, I believe. It's called
Plan 9 itself makes a great platfrom on which to construct
virtualisation.
I don't know what Inferno is but the phrase 'virtual machine' appears
somewhere in the product description. Isn't Inferno the 'it' you're
searching for?
--On Friday, April 17, 2009 6:48 AM +0200 lu...@proxima.alt.za w
As a another data point I'll offer IW9P2009-Bondi - involved a lot of
beer and beach/camping but we wrote a shit-load of code. And it was
fun. Not much sleep. Had to eat too but time sharing coding and
cooking went well.
brucee
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 3:52 PM, andrey mirtchovski
wrote:
>> 5. No
Not productive huh? That why not even Tiger reads the list anymore.
But I read mail from you.
brucee
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 3:48 PM, wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 10:33 PM, Devon H. O'Dell
>> wrote:
>>> 2009/4/16 erik quanstrom :
On Thu Apr 16 22:18:35 EDT 2009, devon.od...@gmail.co
> 5. No code is ever implemented by anyone
extremely efficient, from a SLOC point of view, no?
it also leaves a lot of time for drinking belgian beer, which is nice.
> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 10:33 PM, Devon H. O'Dell
> wrote:
>> 2009/4/16 erik quanstrom :
>>> On Thu Apr 16 22:18:35 EDT 2009, devon.od...@gmail.com wrote:
> i just stated what i thought the historical situation was. the
> point was only that changing direction will be difficult.
>> One can indirectly (and more consistently) limit the number of
>> allocated resources in this fashion (indeed, the number of open file
>> descriptors) by determining the amount of memory consumed by that
>> resource as proportional to the size of the resource. If I as a user
>> have 64,000 alloc
> it breaks down when you realize that some resources (processes, memory)
> are not part of a namespace.
neither are the VMs running on a single node (looked at from dom0, to
give the conventional Xen example). the effects of a process running
in one VM could still be felt in another, even if that
On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 10:33 PM, Devon H. O'Dell wrote:
> 2009/4/16 erik quanstrom :
>> On Thu Apr 16 22:18:35 EDT 2009, devon.od...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> > i just stated what i thought the historical situation was. the
>>> > point was only that changing direction will be difficult.
>>>
>>> This
On Thu Apr 16 19:08:23 EDT 2009, mirtchov...@gmail.com wrote:
> i still like to think of private namespaces as the ultimate
> virtualizer: your ns is your "virtual environment", the file server
> you're mounting is the "hypervisor". i don't care that it doesn't
> simulate actual hardware like xen/
2009/4/16 erik quanstrom :
> On Thu Apr 16 22:18:35 EDT 2009, devon.od...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > i just stated what i thought the historical situation was. the
>> > point was only that changing direction will be difficult.
>>
>> This thread certainly proves that :)
>
> a 9fans thread proves nothing
On Thu Apr 16 22:18:35 EDT 2009, devon.od...@gmail.com wrote:
> > i just stated what i thought the historical situation was. the
> > point was only that changing direction will be difficult.
>
> This thread certainly proves that :)
a 9fans thread proves nothing.
- erik
2009/4/16 Bakul Shah :
> On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:25:06 EDT "Devon H. O'Dell"
> wrote:
>> That said, I don't disagree. Perhaps Plan 9's environment hasn't been
>> assumed to contain malicious users. Which brings up the question: Can
>> Plan 9 be safely run in a potentially malicious environment?
2009/4/16 erik quanstrom :
>> Right, we're saying the same thing backwards. I just am not sure why
>> smalloc was brought up. Yes, it is able to sleep until memory is
>> available for the operation, but it's not used *everywhere*.
>
> that's part of my point. sometimes smalloc is appropriate,
> so
On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:25:06 EDT "Devon H. O'Dell"
wrote:
> That said, I don't disagree. Perhaps Plan 9's environment hasn't been
> assumed to contain malicious users. Which brings up the question: Can
> Plan 9 be safely run in a potentially malicious environment? Based on
> this argument, no,
> That said, I don't disagree. Perhaps Plan 9's environment hasn't been
> assumed to contain malicious users. Which brings up the question: Can
> Plan 9 be safely run in a potentially malicious environment? Based on
> this argument, no, it cannot. Since I want to run Plan 9 in this sort
> of envir
> > interrupts are quite different. there are lots of things that are
> > a bad idea in interrupt context. but one can wakeup a kernel
> > proc that's sitting there waiting to deal with all the hair.
>
> Right, we're saying the same thing backwards. I just am not sure why
> smalloc was brought u
2009/4/16 erik quanstrom :
>>
>> My misunderstanding then, as smalloc is available in port/alloc.c,
>> which is also compiled into the kernel. I'm not concerned about oom
>> conditions in userland.
>
> smalloc is used in the kernel, but only when running with up (user
> process) and only when deali
this is what i'm using. it's not as pretty.
and the arguments are downright ugly.
adding the code to pretty-up the source listings
would eliminate the sleeze and ugliness
but i didn't want to drag all that code in too.
i added this to /lib/httpd.rewrite
# sleezy
bind /usr/sources /usr/web/source
> > plan 9 doesn't have interrupt threads, but that's beside the point.
> >
> > interrupts are driven by the hardware, not users. so smalloc, which
> > is used to allow user space to wait for memory if it is not currently
> > available doesn't make any sense.
>
> My misunderstanding then, as smal
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 4:12 AM, Skip Tavakkolian <9...@9netics.com> wrote:
> i think it's a different thing.
yes
> there's an old thread where ehg
> mentions it a filtering fs based on exportfs.
that's yet another different thing.
the sources pages are internally rewritten
into /magic/somethin
2009/4/16 erik quanstrom :
> On Thu Apr 16 17:51:42 EDT 2009, devon.od...@gmail.com wrote:
>> 2009/4/16 erik quanstrom :
>> > have you taken a look at the protection measures already
>> > built into the kernel like smalloc?
>>
>> At least in FreeBSD, you can't sleep in an interrupt thread. I suppos
i still like to think of private namespaces as the ultimate
virtualizer: your ns is your "virtual environment", the file server
you're mounting is the "hypervisor". i don't care that it doesn't
simulate actual hardware like xen/qemu. after all, each has layers and
layers of abstractions to get you
On Thu Apr 16 17:51:42 EDT 2009, devon.od...@gmail.com wrote:
> 2009/4/16 erik quanstrom :
> > have you taken a look at the protection measures already
> > built into the kernel like smalloc?
>
> At least in FreeBSD, you can't sleep in an interrupt thread. I suppose
> that's probably also the case
2009/4/16 erik quanstrom :
> have you taken a look at the protection measures already
> built into the kernel like smalloc?
At least in FreeBSD, you can't sleep in an interrupt thread. I suppose
that's probably also the case in Plan 9 interrupt handlers, and this
would mitigate that situation.
>>
have you taken a look at the protection measures already
built into the kernel like smalloc?
> While it may not be perfectly ideal, it allows the administrator to
> maintain control over the system.
being a system adminstrator, i dislike any ideas that require
extra adminstration. for the same r
> The plan9-way seems to be to divide the tasks
> of running programs, storing files, authenti-
> cation and user interaction, to separate
> servers or computers. This makes sense in
> a large system with many users, but does it
> also have appeal in a system with at most a
> couple of users (mostl
> One can indirectly (and more consistently) limit the number of
> allocated resources in this fashion (indeed, the number of open file
> descriptors) by determining the amount of memory consumed by that
> resource as proportional to the size of the resource. If I as a user
> have 64,000 allocation
2009/4/16 Venkatesh Srinivas :
> Devlimit / Rlimit is less than ideal - the resource limits aren't
> adaptive to program needs and to resource availability. They would be
> describing resources that user programs have very little visible
> control over (kernel resources), except by changing their s
The plan9-way seems to be to divide the tasks
of running programs, storing files, authenti-
cation and user interaction, to separate
servers or computers. This makes sense in
a large system with many users, but does it
also have appeal in a system with at most a
couple of users (mostly me)?
How d
Devlimit / Rlimit is less than ideal - the resource limits aren't
adaptive to program needs and to resource availability. They would be
describing resources that user programs have very little visible
control over (kernel resources), except by changing their syscall mix
or giving up a segment or so
On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:24:36 BST roger peppe wrote:
> 2009/4/6 Bakul Shah :
> > On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 20:28:57 BST roger peppe =C2=A0w=
> rote:
> >> a pipeline is an amazingly powerful thing considering
> >> that it's not a turing-complete abstraction.
> >
> > "f | g" is basically function composi
On Thu Apr 16 13:52:22 EDT 2009, devon.od...@gmail.com wrote:
> 2009/4/16 hiro <23h...@googlemail.com>:
> > What is the advantage of rails anyway?
> > I had a quick glance, but still don't really understand it's function.
>
> MVC development model. Allows you to abstract the data from the code
> f
> The benefit to this approach is that we would have an extremely easy
> way to add new constraints as needed (simply create another tunable
> pool), without changing the API or interfering with multiple
> subsystems, outside of changing malloc calls if needed. The limits
> could be checked on a pe
that's nice.
i wrote a slightly different version of webls to handle
coraid's mirror of sources (http://sources.coraid.com)
to allow the arguments to always be hidden and to
gloss over the differences between source directories
and source files.
- erik
On Apr 16, 2009, at 1:50 PM, Devon H. O'Dell wrote:
MVC development model
Good point. I think I'll get started porting Cocoa to Plan 9. =P
oops, forgot example:
^(.*)/download(.*)/$@/magic/webls?dir=\1/download/\2
^(.*)/src(.*)/$ @/magic/webls?dir=\1/src\2
On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 12:15 PM, andrey mirtchovski
wrote:
>> it's also interesting to note that they managed to hide the
>> /magic/prog stuff from
> it's also interesting to note that they managed to hide the
> /magic/prog stuff from the urls somehow.
>
that's accomplished via /sys/lib/httpd.rewrite. from httpd(8):
Httpd handles replacements pre-
fixed with @ internally, treating the request as if it were
for
i think it's a different thing. there's an old thread where ehg
mentions it a filtering fs based on exportfs.
a filterfs would make this type of thing trivial; i have an outline of
one. cgifs is already done (in fgb's contrib) and there's a cgi.c in
rsc's contrib that you could use with httpd to
i'm not sure what you mean by "script", the server in question
probably runs a tweaked version of webls.
it's also interesting to note that they managed to hide the
/magic/prog stuff from the urls somehow.
On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 2:55 PM, Benjamin Huntsman
wrote:
>>http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sou
>http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/plan9/sys/src/cmd/ip/httpd/webls.c
That looks to be useful too, though that's not the script that sources is using
to generate the pages.
The HTML source produced by webls.c looks different than what is produced by
the pages.
Looks like the script in question
On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 9:22 AM, Pietro Gagliardi wrote:
> Is Rails even necessary?
If all you have is an object, everything looks like a method. ;)
-J
2009/4/16 hiro <23h...@googlemail.com>:
> What is the advantage of rails anyway?
> I had a quick glance, but still don't really understand it's function.
MVC development model. Allows you to abstract the data from the code
from the design, but easily access needed parts from other needed
parts. On
In the interests of academia (and from the idea of setting up a public
Plan 9 cluster) comes the following mail. I'm sure people will brush
some of this off as a non-issue, but I'm curious what others think.
It doesn't seem that Plan 9 does much to protect the kernel from
memory / resource exhaust
http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/plan9/sys/src/cmd/ip/httpd/webls.c
On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Benjamin Huntsman
wrote:
> Speaking of web servers...
> Is the script that creates the pages for the source browsing on
> plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/ included in the distribution or otherwise
What is the advantage of rails anyway?
I had a quick glance, but still don't really understand it's function.
On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 7:22 PM, Pietro Gagliardi wrote:
> Just a thought.
>
> Is Rails even necessary? Other server-side alternatives do exist, and they
> can be written. IIRC, the autho
Speaking of web servers...
Is the script that creates the pages for the source browsing on
plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/ included in the distribution or otherwise
available? It's pretty neat, and may be useful...
Thanks in advance!
-Ben
2009/4/6 Bakul Shah :
> On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 20:28:57 BST roger peppe wrote:
>> a pipeline is an amazingly powerful thing considering
>> that it's not a turing-complete abstraction.
>
> "f | g" is basically function composition, where f and g are
> stream functions. Of course, this simple analogy
Just a thought.
Is Rails even necessary? Other server-side alternatives do exist, and
they can be written. IIRC, the author of rit mentioned it being used
in his Pegasus server...
> I thought I'd seen a ruby port in the contrib list...
> And if merb were just written (portably) in ruby, then, I thought, it
> wouldn't have to be that difficult...
/n/sources/contrib/fgb/tar/ruby.tgz
- erik
>
>> How difficult would it be to use rails or merb in plan9? Is it feasible?
>
> Very difficult. No, not feasible. You would have to port Ruby. And
> then possibly rails, too. Plan 9 isn't UNIX, or UNIX-like, or POSIX
> (or POSIX-like). APE helps with some stuff, but not all the way.
I thought I'
2009/4/16 Rudolf Sykora :
> Hello,
>
> I've been wondering (and not reading much)...
> If I'd like to use plan9 as a www server, is there anything ready?
Yes, there is a pre-built httpd and libraries for writing your own.
Recent apache probably doesn't compile in APE (but maybe it does).
> How di
yes. there are several web servers, including one in the standard
dist. however, rails or merb might be something you'd have to do
yourself.
- erik
Hello,
I've been wondering (and not reading much)...
If I'd like to use plan9 as a www server, is there anything ready?
How difficult would it be to use rails or merb in plan9? Is it feasible?
thanks
ruda
Thanks to everyone again for all the information and ideas. I decided
to try running Plan 9 with Qemu in Ubuntu. I can't use kvm because my
processor doesn't support it. I resized my partitions to make room to
install Ubuntu in its own partition. Before that it was running from a
CD image on my XP
> >i really need to write a driver for integratede modern intel or ati
> >graphics.
>
>
> There is an ati radeon driver for the r100-r300 (at least) by Philippe
> Anel, iirc.
i guess english precidence rules don't work that well. let me try again
integrated modern (intel or ati) graphics.
> I
Hi,
does anybody knows what happened to the Tokyo Inferno / Plan 9 Users
Group? I've been trying to reach their web page and their very useful
mordor plan 9 server but both seem to be down.
BTW, maybe there is someone offering access to a plan 9 installation
closer to Italy?
Saludos
--
Hugo
2009/4/16 hugo rivera :
> BTW, maybe there is someone offering access to a plan 9 installation
> closer to Italy?
There's http://www.9grid.it but I don't know what sort of access it provides...
-sqweek
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